Ok, honestly, AV Mamo isn't bad; however, I would use mamoswine as a rocks setter or a all out LO attacker. Also, guess what else wrecks Zard Y? Anything with AV that kinda resists Zard Y's attacks.
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
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We're talking about monoground, where you got 2 great rock setters in Hippo and Chomp. Mamo has the HP stat to be a great AV user.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
In my opinion, the best wallbreaker in XY OU is, and has been since its beginning, Landorus-i. Mega Garchomp in sand has a reasonable amount of power, sure, but... say you go for the standard mixed set. Outside of sand it can't even 2HKO Chansey with Earthquake! It should be noted that on ground teams there is a lot of pressure on Hippo between its physical walling, and both Exca and Mega Chomp wanting its sand. I find keeping sand away can be remarkably easy simply by sitting a special attacker out on the field to scare it off. Meanwhile Landorus is sitting there with Knock Off and Focus Blast to be seriously threatening to Chansey, while being a special attacker! But that's beside the point. The way the metagame is nowadays, it's almost entirely offense. This is, funnily enough, best shown by scarf greninja itself. In a meta like OU, where everthing right now is nice and balanced, Greninja's best set is easily LO as it's just powerful enough, has plenty of speed, and gets just enough of a movepool to be a decent threat. In monotype, running scarf actually works, despite the power drop being more than just noticable, and the only thing it outspeeds through scarf is other scarves: It's a mon built around revenge killing revenge killers. In that kind of metagame, more than one wallbreaker/stallbreaker is just overdoing things. ScarfChomp, on the other hand, is not only a very good revenge killer, but also can bluff a lead set nicely, and is a primarily physical attacker that can still easily 2HKO ferrothorn and skarmory with fire blast.
Moreover, its dragon typing helps immensely with checking things, and due to outspeeding most of the metagame it makes for a far better check than its mega. As I showed earlier, it alongside gastrodon can happily beat scarf greninja with the right predictions, while LO greninja can also be beaten even if there are more predictions to get right. This is why it isn't a complete waste against scarfninja: The inability to switch moves is devestating on something with as little damage output as greninja, which struggles to use well its 103 base SpA compared to such monsters as... well just about anything. Garchomp's base 130 atk seems fairly standard for OU, and if you wanted to use it as a physical attacker rather than revenge killer then you'd certainly be looking towards at least a life orb to raise its damage output. And even with protean, Scarf Greninja still barely does any damage. And let's look at the few stall teams you do see:
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 106-126 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
It 4HKOs Normal's standard physical wall. It's got chansey to wall special hits, after all. Vs. a normal team, it's really going to be struggling to do anything relevant, which really means it's a wasted team slot for those games.
252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 96-114 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- 51.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Steel team when you're not carrying HP fire? Cool damage output bro. That stealth rock will come in nice and handy later on.
My point is that with such low damage output, it's extremely easy to wall meaning it and the only chance of it being a problem to a well-built non-ground team is if it predicts extremely well, probably over an extended period of time. Of course, even with LO, it won't be beating Porygon2 or Ferrothorn, but at least with a more decent chunk of damage (Perhaps up to 40%) there would be pressure on these things, so they have to recover one turn earlier or focus more on leech seed than setting up hazards. Sure, it's not easy to beat with ground, but firstly ground is extremely good already (between a very strong defensive core and a very strong offensive core), and secondly ground can beat greninja, if only with good prediction. Moreover Greninja has some serious 4mss, and we can't make every matchup perfectly balanced. So long as both sides have a chance, and can check the opposing threats, it's not worth banning a pokemon over.
I'd run either banded or LO depending on what team I use but losing Mega chomp is easily manageable cause you do have a multitude of ways to break through things so I find the oppurtunity cost fine. And as I had stated earlier it is currently only at a partially manageable ATM cause of it either being too weak to at times (scarf) and just the threat of being outsped (lo) and soon enough as I stated I think it would be worth considering a possible ban just cause it would be far worse than it is now (with people being scared even more of what its carrying in gunk shot or what have you).
And frankly I may have just snapped a bit there cause for some reason I despised the notion of a comment in there that set me off so apologizes there.
Also I'm just more reffering to just me thinking of it not being a good check just cause of the stupidness its bringing and me being bias against it in ORAS (against gren). To much ORAS lately for me.
EDIT: And I do like fighting Gren just cause I like the skill it makes me do like fighting against ss rain.
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I've never said I wanted it outright banned, at least not in a serious sense, so apologies if my posts came across that way. I did however want to invite discussion into it, so from that viewpoint, it's been a success.
Onto your points, I agree that yeah it might not 2HKO chans out of sand, but in reality there are very few pokemon who can claim to without powerful Fighting type coverage or STAB, that's why Chansey is so popular compared to Blissey now, in that it tanks physical hits infinitely better and still provides the almost impenetrable special wall that Blissey did. The only things that you are looking at that can 2HKO Chans without Fighting moves are banded wallbreakers of the mould of Kyurem-B and Azumarill, which have the obvious flaw of being locked into one move and can thus be played around. Or as you mention, Lando-i after it has Knocked Off it's Eviolite. On that point though, it's hardly a guaranteed 2HKO, 49% is no fun. My reasoning for using Megachomp is that I always like to have 2 solid answers to threats such as Skarmory and Slowbro, which makes it very difficult for the opponent to pressure me, as if the only thing I have on my team that can break them is a Lando-i, it then suddenly gives the opponent a very visible and easy win condition, in that if they remove my Lando-i(worth noting here that Lando is never switching into Slowbro and can't OHKO it) they essentially win the game as all i can do from there is go to Gastrodon and hope for burns. You've also got to remember the immense amount of things it checks thanks to it's great uninvested physical bulk and lack of weakness to knock off. Bisharp and Crawdaunt get honorary mentions here, the latter particularly as it can KO the rest of any Ground team with a set of Knock Off / Crabhammer / Aqua Jet with that ridiculous Adaptability boost.
In reality, Megachomp just beats so many things that could be the bane of a Ground team: Skarmory, Mandibuzz (after rocks or in Sand if fully physically defensiive), Slowbro(in Sand or after rocks), Crawdaunt, it cripples physically defensive Rotom-W to the point where it can't reliably check Excadrill anymore, Zapdos etc. etc. I notice one thing about all of these pokemon listed, and that is they are Excadrill switchins. From my point of view, even when I made my first Ground team at the start of this gen my thoughts were always how can I make my team more suited to removing those checks because I believe Exca is without a doubt the best lategame sweeper in Monotype, and I wanted to utilise that to it's maximum, and that in my opinion basically mandates the use of Mega Garchomp.
On to the point raised about Landorus, yeah I would agree that it is a fantastic wallbreaker, but you kind of have to pick your poison with it. By this I mean it has quite major 4MSS, because I see Earth Power and Psychic as mandatory, the first for STAB and the second for coverage on Mega Venu, Amoonguss and Gengar, who are all annoying as hell otherwise. This leaves you two slots for a myriad of options, ranging from Sludge Wave(Fairies in general, Azu, Rotom-C, nice for hitting neutral targets like Lati@s and Zard Y on switchin), Focus Blast(Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, hits SpDef or Mega TTar harder, Mega Gyara, strongest neutral move if Earth Power is resisted or immune such as Rotom formes), Knock Off(Lati@s and Chansey, SpDef Mew, nice utility), Gravity(Flying and Electric monos, nice for catching a Gengar on the switchin) and Rock Slide(Zard Y, SpDef Zapdos). These all pick off the targets that I mentioned in brackets, but due to the usefulness of the other options, I rarely if ever find the chance to use Knock Off because in a lot of matchups it doesn't see a lot of use.
Onto your points, I agree that yeah it might not 2HKO chans out of sand, but in reality there are very few pokemon who can claim to without powerful Fighting type coverage or STAB, that's why Chansey is so popular compared to Blissey now, in that it tanks physical hits infinitely better and still provides the almost impenetrable special wall that Blissey did. The only things that you are looking at that can 2HKO Chans without Fighting moves are banded wallbreakers of the mould of Kyurem-B and Azumarill, which have the obvious flaw of being locked into one move and can thus be played around. Or as you mention, Lando-i after it has Knocked Off it's Eviolite. On that point though, it's hardly a guaranteed 2HKO, 49% is no fun. My reasoning for using Megachomp is that I always like to have 2 solid answers to threats such as Skarmory and Slowbro, which makes it very difficult for the opponent to pressure me, as if the only thing I have on my team that can break them is a Lando-i, it then suddenly gives the opponent a very visible and easy win condition, in that if they remove my Lando-i(worth noting here that Lando is never switching into Slowbro and can't OHKO it) they essentially win the game as all i can do from there is go to Gastrodon and hope for burns. You've also got to remember the immense amount of things it checks thanks to it's great uninvested physical bulk and lack of weakness to knock off. Bisharp and Crawdaunt get honorary mentions here, the latter particularly as it can KO the rest of any Ground team with a set of Knock Off / Crabhammer / Aqua Jet with that ridiculous Adaptability boost.
In reality, Megachomp just beats so many things that could be the bane of a Ground team: Skarmory, Mandibuzz (after rocks or in Sand if fully physically defensiive), Slowbro(in Sand or after rocks), Crawdaunt, it cripples physically defensive Rotom-W to the point where it can't reliably check Excadrill anymore, Zapdos etc. etc. I notice one thing about all of these pokemon listed, and that is they are Excadrill switchins. From my point of view, even when I made my first Ground team at the start of this gen my thoughts were always how can I make my team more suited to removing those checks because I believe Exca is without a doubt the best lategame sweeper in Monotype, and I wanted to utilise that to it's maximum, and that in my opinion basically mandates the use of Mega Garchomp.
On to the point raised about Landorus, yeah I would agree that it is a fantastic wallbreaker, but you kind of have to pick your poison with it. By this I mean it has quite major 4MSS, because I see Earth Power and Psychic as mandatory, the first for STAB and the second for coverage on Mega Venu, Amoonguss and Gengar, who are all annoying as hell otherwise. This leaves you two slots for a myriad of options, ranging from Sludge Wave(Fairies in general, Azu, Rotom-C, nice for hitting neutral targets like Lati@s and Zard Y on switchin), Focus Blast(Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, hits SpDef or Mega TTar harder, Mega Gyara, strongest neutral move if Earth Power is resisted or immune such as Rotom formes), Knock Off(Lati@s and Chansey, SpDef Mew, nice utility), Gravity(Flying and Electric monos, nice for catching a Gengar on the switchin) and Rock Slide(Zard Y, SpDef Zapdos). These all pick off the targets that I mentioned in brackets, but due to the usefulness of the other options, I rarely if ever find the chance to use Knock Off because in a lot of matchups it doesn't see a lot of use.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Megachomp still doesn't exactly do a lot in my eyes. Skarmory is nothing between Landorus, Fire Blast Scarfchomp, and flinches from Mamo's Icicle Crash, not to mention Gastrodon beats it 1v1 easily. And sure, Mandibuzz is nasty, but like you said it needs rocks or sand, and sand can be stalled out not to mention it's horrifically easy to revenge kill. And sure, nothing else on a ground team can beat it offensively, but one toxic from gastrodon and suddenly it's less of a wall. And don't forget, MegaChomp isn't switching in on mandibuzz very easily:
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 160-189 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO
Note this was from Mixed Mega Chomp, if you're running more than 4+ atk it's gonna do more damage.
252 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 240-283 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sand: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Sure, Slowbro can't switch in, but if it spams recover it can happily stall out sand then hit back with scald (and its horrific burn chance) or, if it has it, ice beam which nothing's going to particularly like. Again, the best option is probably to toxic it and stall it out, if it doesn't have toxic, or otherwise toxic it and try to outplay its status by letting only your less important pokemon get status'd. Oh, and Landorus has a larger damage output against it anyway.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Moreover, I think having a good revenge killer is good support for Excadrill as well as a wallbreaker, and TBH I can't really see that Mega Chomp covers much that Landorus doesn't. The last thing you want is to be swept before you can set up sand and send in exca. Nor do you want something competing for exca's sand.
As for 4mss on Landorus, I find that Earth Power/Focus Blast/Psychic/Knock off works quite nicely. The standard set, and the one I run on my flying team, is the same but with Sludge Wave over Knock Off, however with Exca as the sweeper I find that Fairy isn't really too much of a threat, and Landorus can still deal plenty of damage to things between Psychic and Earth Power. Psychic gives me a way of beating Mega Venu while coming in handy in all sorts of places, while Focus Blast + Earth Power helps wallbreak a whole number of things, such as Ferrothorn or Skarmory, while Knock Off + Focus Blast lets me beat Chansey. And sure, it's only a 49% chance of hitting twice in a row, but the damage is extremely good and Chansey's no longer safe. Not to mention now that it's had a knock off, it can't wall a whole variety of things.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-376 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 473-559 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Ok nobody runs 252/252+ but it's the default set IIRC, so you still see some people running it rather than the better 4/252+/252).
But anyway. Sure, go ahead and suspect greninja if you really like. Just two things: Firstly, let's get some more important things out the way first. If we get rid of some other things, such as Landorus, the whole situation drastically changes; you need megachomp as a wallbreaker so you struggle more vs. ninja. Not saying we should ban Lando on ground, but it's a more pressing issue. And secondly, let's make sure not to forget that just because it's a suspect doesn't mean it needs a ban. From what I've seen, there's a chance of things getting banned because they're on the suspect list, it'd be a real shame to see that happen.
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 160-189 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO
Note this was from Mixed Mega Chomp, if you're running more than 4+ atk it's gonna do more damage.
252 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 240-283 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sand: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Sure, Slowbro can't switch in, but if it spams recover it can happily stall out sand then hit back with scald (and its horrific burn chance) or, if it has it, ice beam which nothing's going to particularly like. Again, the best option is probably to toxic it and stall it out, if it doesn't have toxic, or otherwise toxic it and try to outplay its status by letting only your less important pokemon get status'd. Oh, and Landorus has a larger damage output against it anyway.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Moreover, I think having a good revenge killer is good support for Excadrill as well as a wallbreaker, and TBH I can't really see that Mega Chomp covers much that Landorus doesn't. The last thing you want is to be swept before you can set up sand and send in exca. Nor do you want something competing for exca's sand.
As for 4mss on Landorus, I find that Earth Power/Focus Blast/Psychic/Knock off works quite nicely. The standard set, and the one I run on my flying team, is the same but with Sludge Wave over Knock Off, however with Exca as the sweeper I find that Fairy isn't really too much of a threat, and Landorus can still deal plenty of damage to things between Psychic and Earth Power. Psychic gives me a way of beating Mega Venu while coming in handy in all sorts of places, while Focus Blast + Earth Power helps wallbreak a whole number of things, such as Ferrothorn or Skarmory, while Knock Off + Focus Blast lets me beat Chansey. And sure, it's only a 49% chance of hitting twice in a row, but the damage is extremely good and Chansey's no longer safe. Not to mention now that it's had a knock off, it can't wall a whole variety of things.
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-376 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 473-559 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Ok nobody runs 252/252+ but it's the default set IIRC, so you still see some people running it rather than the better 4/252+/252).
But anyway. Sure, go ahead and suspect greninja if you really like. Just two things: Firstly, let's get some more important things out the way first. If we get rid of some other things, such as Landorus, the whole situation drastically changes; you need megachomp as a wallbreaker so you struggle more vs. ninja. Not saying we should ban Lando on ground, but it's a more pressing issue. And secondly, let's make sure not to forget that just because it's a suspect doesn't mean it needs a ban. From what I've seen, there's a chance of things getting banned because they're on the suspect list, it'd be a real shame to see that happen.
Which again I decide is just team building philosophy. I do not find Mega chomp mandatory cause there are just many routes to take. Its like why I myself have always preceded Quagsires on my teams as it has always been infinitely better for me than any other water/ground type and always gets me in a bit of trouble when I argue team philosophy. I prefer being able to use stuff like nidoking who always performans more than exemplary when I require of it.
I could go on but frankly I'm gonna start babbling on my own team building philosophy and how its carried me since Gen 5. Not the place nor time I think at the moment. Rather discuss some other stuff than Gren cause as I said I've been looking at a lot of the Peas stuff and some things are starting to bug me with what we may needcgone sooner ether than later (Mega Sable and Sharp are two I am potentially considering but idk we got to wait just would like some thoughts) .
With ORAS finally available, I wanted to share something small and hear your opinions about it.
I was planning on making a Ground team with Mega Swampert as a Swift Swim sweeper with Specially Defensive Gastro to provide Rain Dance with a Damp Rock (mostly for fun). However, I really want to include Hippowdon on it because it is a very reliable physically defensive tank along with settings up hazards. Would it be sensible to include two types of weather on my team? Sand Force would be useless, and Sand Stream can be advantageous for boosting my own moves while whittling away at my opponent's health.
I was planning on making a Ground team with Mega Swampert as a Swift Swim sweeper with Specially Defensive Gastro to provide Rain Dance with a Damp Rock (mostly for fun). However, I really want to include Hippowdon on it because it is a very reliable physically defensive tank along with settings up hazards. Would it be sensible to include two types of weather on my team? Sand Force would be useless, and Sand Stream can be advantageous for boosting my own moves while whittling away at my opponent's health.
Considering that Damp Rock Gastrodon is going to be a pretty unreliable Rain setter, and that you're going to be pivoting into Hippowdon a lot, it would be hard to keep rain up for Mega Swampert to wreak havoc frequently enough. Either way, Gliscor fills the role of being a defensive pivot and setting Stealth Rock, so sacrificing precious rain turns won't be needed.
Except ground arguably needs scarf chomp and while hippo is a great rock setter doesn't have that knack for stopping defog like mamoswine does(helps with ground vs flying). Also you must remember running jolly mamoswine is pretty crucial to ground unless you wanna sac something to breloom everytime you go against fighting or grass(Can't always afford to do so.)
What then do you suggest I use as a Ground rain-setter if Gastro isn't reliable enough? I agree with sacking Hippo for Pivot Gliscor, which can also do well with U-Turn, but want consistent walls.
I spent most of today trying to back up my claims about mandibuzz, so I got to put in a hilarious amount of work against the new megas with a team of togekiss/mandibuzz/roost and wisp chari X/ scarf thundthurus T/ lando-t pivot/ and a weakness policy dragonite.
Strictly offensive mega swampert didn't impress me, I'm more scared of a wall breaking or tanky manaphy tbh. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the team's I've been seeing happen to already have checks to things like mega medicahm and terrakion, and they work so fine for mega metagross that I never specifically have it in mind when making the defensive glue for my monoteams. I saw all three normal megas. THe match against that audino-chansey core was an outright nightmare. The other two underperformed in every sense of the term. Felt very fair. While I don't think I'll ever do skarmory-less flying again, it was a lot of fun.. Also saw a handful of gallade, which mandibuzz ate for breakfeast, although, the lack of fake out, as promised, caused difficulties to get their initial transform and speed boost. I felt like everyone was on the physical attacker hype train, so yeah. Most swamperts tried to set up their own rain, a couple had polietoed (server reboot also got rid of damp rock ban...). Don't really see it working without wall breaker support. Can see some sweeping potential on weakened teams, but most of the people I played tried to sweep as soon as he came out. Saw way more suicide leads than bulky rocks pokemon, which I guess "keeps up" with offensive play, but I felt many teams would have given me more problems with more dedicated support options. Later I tested a ground team with memento dugtrio+ mega swampert... Felt way better than the ones people used against me, but I'm still not really sold on him.
Strictly offensive mega swampert didn't impress me, I'm more scared of a wall breaking or tanky manaphy tbh. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the team's I've been seeing happen to already have checks to things like mega medicahm and terrakion, and they work so fine for mega metagross that I never specifically have it in mind when making the defensive glue for my monoteams. I saw all three normal megas. THe match against that audino-chansey core was an outright nightmare. The other two underperformed in every sense of the term. Felt very fair. While I don't think I'll ever do skarmory-less flying again, it was a lot of fun.. Also saw a handful of gallade, which mandibuzz ate for breakfeast, although, the lack of fake out, as promised, caused difficulties to get their initial transform and speed boost. I felt like everyone was on the physical attacker hype train, so yeah. Most swamperts tried to set up their own rain, a couple had polietoed (server reboot also got rid of damp rock ban...). Don't really see it working without wall breaker support. Can see some sweeping potential on weakened teams, but most of the people I played tried to sweep as soon as he came out. Saw way more suicide leads than bulky rocks pokemon, which I guess "keeps up" with offensive play, but I felt many teams would have given me more problems with more dedicated support options. Later I tested a ground team with memento dugtrio+ mega swampert... Felt way better than the ones people used against me, but I'm still not really sold on him.
I've just tested whether Damp Rock is still banned or not, I can confirm the ladder would not let me use it on a water team, but it was fine on all other teams.
It's hard to have an opinion on some of the ORAS changes with the salamence running around. Anyway, I consulted around for a nice list of moveset changes that you may not have heard with all the shouting over the OU mons like greninja and gyarados. I'm especially hyped for mega sharpedo, as between earthquake and strong jaw poison fang, it hits every fairy for SE damage, while comfortably outspeeding any fairy as long as you remember to treat Klekfi with kiddie gloves.
Also gourgeist and chesnaught will finally get the attention they deserve with newfound reliable healing in synthesis and drain punch, respectively.
Also gourgeist and chesnaught will finally get the attention they deserve with newfound reliable healing in synthesis and drain punch, respectively.
a copy-paste of my former posts, trying to compile a list of prominent moveset changes.
Iron Head/Tail
Magic Coat
Knock Off + Play Rough
Synthesis, Heal Bell, Giga Drain
Drain Punch, Thunder Punch, Iron Head/Tail, Superpower, Zen Headbutt, Focus Punch
Iron Tail
Heal Bell, Earth Power
Pain Split, Foul Play, Drain Punch, all elemental punches
Drain Punch, Heal Bell
Knock Off, Drain Punch, Superpower, Gunk Shot, Focus Punch and all elemental punches
Outrage, Superpower, Iron Tail/Head, Zen Headbutt
Synthesis, Foul Play
Poison Fang
Giga Drain
Magnet Rise
Knock Off + Sticky Web
Spikey Shield
Stealth Rocks
Funny thing is P-Jab hits harder than a Strong Jaw Poison Fang so :(
Its still a royal pain in the ass to fight sometimes depending on what it wishes to carry, but not cause of that move.
With the addition of ORAS, it has obviously changed the meta and has made some significant differences. Particularly, Mega Salamence is one of the biggest threats right now, and in my opinion, it is very powerful and blatantly broken, which is why I will address this first. Mega Salamence can be very diverse and fill different roles for many types of teams, and do so by using sets that include a bulky setup set, fully offensive set, and even stall sets. It has an impressive defensive and speed stat upon mega evolving and an insanely high attack boost whilst factoring in Aerilate.
One strategy Mega Salamence utilizes is the intimidate upon switching in as regular Salamence, because it allows for Salamence to mega evolve in that turn against a weaker physical attacker and can set up a substitute and begin dragon dancing safely behind the substitute. Usually, bulky variants run this and proves to be extremely effective. This alone forces whirlwind/roar to be essential on every team or else you'll get swept cleanly by Mega Salamence (assuming you can survive the hit in the first place). As a late game sweeper, this is absolutely dangerous if ANY of the opponents walls are not at full health, as all it can take is one hit by Mega Salamence to finish it off, and their is no point in trying to stall it out because it can simply Roost off the damage or Dragon Dance up for more damage.
If not being the best late game sweeper is enough, Salamence also has extensive support on both Flying and Dragon teams. Dragon teams can overwhelm the opponent by withering down the enemy pokemon with the sheer power Dragon has, and make way for Mega Salamence to clean up nicely. Whilst Flying can stall out the enemy slowly, and eventually, once again, clean up with Mega Salamence.
Having said all this, I feel that banning Salamencite globally from Monotype is the most appropriate action. That is, banned for both Flying and Dragon teams. It is the best late game sweeper in my opinion, and is simply too much to handle for some types, pretty much becoming an autowin.
tl;dr Salamencite is now globally banned from Monotype (i.e banned for Flying and Dragon)
Also, please note that some of the previous pokemon under discussion will go under a manual suspect test. Details will release once the ladder on PS is fixed, so sit tight! Until then, I would like people to maintain their attention on Genesect, Shaymin-Sky, Kyurem-White, Greninja, Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.
Which of these pokemon do you feel is most unbalancing to the meta as of this moment? Genesect, being troublesome due to its diversity, hard hitting U-turn, web support and download boost. Shaymin-Sky, being troublesome due its dirty Air Slash flinches and crazy fast speed. Kyurem-W due to its whopping 170 SpA and wide movepool. Greninja due to its insane diversity and incapability of walling it (exception of normal teams). Mega Medicham due to its brutal attack strength. And Mega Sableye/Slowbro due to its stall potential that is nearly unbreakable.
So once again, which of these pokemon do you feel is overpowered/most unbalanced for the meta as of this moment? Do you feel a pokemon should not be on this list? Please post your thoughts guys!
One strategy Mega Salamence utilizes is the intimidate upon switching in as regular Salamence, because it allows for Salamence to mega evolve in that turn against a weaker physical attacker and can set up a substitute and begin dragon dancing safely behind the substitute. Usually, bulky variants run this and proves to be extremely effective. This alone forces whirlwind/roar to be essential on every team or else you'll get swept cleanly by Mega Salamence (assuming you can survive the hit in the first place). As a late game sweeper, this is absolutely dangerous if ANY of the opponents walls are not at full health, as all it can take is one hit by Mega Salamence to finish it off, and their is no point in trying to stall it out because it can simply Roost off the damage or Dragon Dance up for more damage.
If not being the best late game sweeper is enough, Salamence also has extensive support on both Flying and Dragon teams. Dragon teams can overwhelm the opponent by withering down the enemy pokemon with the sheer power Dragon has, and make way for Mega Salamence to clean up nicely. Whilst Flying can stall out the enemy slowly, and eventually, once again, clean up with Mega Salamence.
Having said all this, I feel that banning Salamencite globally from Monotype is the most appropriate action. That is, banned for both Flying and Dragon teams. It is the best late game sweeper in my opinion, and is simply too much to handle for some types, pretty much becoming an autowin.
tl;dr Salamencite is now globally banned from Monotype (i.e banned for Flying and Dragon)
Also, please note that some of the previous pokemon under discussion will go under a manual suspect test. Details will release once the ladder on PS is fixed, so sit tight! Until then, I would like people to maintain their attention on Genesect, Shaymin-Sky, Kyurem-White, Greninja, Mega Medicham, Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.
Which of these pokemon do you feel is most unbalancing to the meta as of this moment? Genesect, being troublesome due to its diversity, hard hitting U-turn, web support and download boost. Shaymin-Sky, being troublesome due its dirty Air Slash flinches and crazy fast speed. Kyurem-W due to its whopping 170 SpA and wide movepool. Greninja due to its insane diversity and incapability of walling it (exception of normal teams). Mega Medicham due to its brutal attack strength. And Mega Sableye/Slowbro due to its stall potential that is nearly unbreakable.
So once again, which of these pokemon do you feel is overpowered/most unbalanced for the meta as of this moment? Do you feel a pokemon should not be on this list? Please post your thoughts guys!
Praise Nani
Okay about Greninja, it gained two moves in ORAS (Low Kick and Gunk Shot), making it more deadly than before.
BST:
HP:72
ATK:95
DEF:67
SPA:103
SPD:71
SPE:122 (SanicFast)
Okay, the speed stat is whooping, but what makes this so deadly? PROTEAN; it gets STAB from all its moves, meaning it will hit HARD to almost anything. This thing has a few walls depending on it's set, and if it has the set that is intended to break a certain wall, it WILL.
It can be beaten by scarfs, but some users run scarf ninja to kill them, the point is it's unpredictable what set it is. Some runs expert belt and fakes a scarf as well and finishes you off when you lower your guard
Lemme show how Greninja beats the walls of different types:
Fighting: Extrasensory+Shadow Sneak or Scarf Extrasensory. Only MegaCham and Conkeldurr tank hits but they have their prospective walls in the types (Mandibuzz for Dark and Swampert and Alomomola, Slowbro(Megacham), Swampert(Conkeldurr)
Normal: The only type that can wall Greninja with Chansey and Porygon 2 but gets beaten by Keldeo or Bisharp, once they are down it's pretty much ogre.
Flying: You can do nothing, no switchins to Orbed Ninja (Unless you run Articuno but good luck with that 4x weakness to rocks). Taking down Orb-ed ninja is using a faster scarf, but if it's scarf, gg.
Fire: Surfin' through the walls.
Electric: Beams Zapdos, Surf does a number on magnezone, outspeeds scarf magnezone anyways. AV Elektross can tank a hit but dies from multiple switchins
Grass: One hope: Skymin, or else, if Ferro dies to Keldeo/TTar, Extrasensory/Ice beaming errything.
Dragon: Ice beams everywhere after Secret sword that Kyurem-B with Keldeo/Bisharp's Iron Head
Fairy: Gunk Shot does a huge number on fairies, but they can tank with the screens, but still does a huge number and stops BD Azumarill
Water: Grass knot+Dark Pulse+Extrasensory kills the walls.
Dark: Ice beam the Mandibuzz, Low Kick the ttar. RIP walls ;_;
Ice: Dark Pulse kills the Avalugg, Surf kills Piloswine, Articuno can wall it, but it's teammates can kill that.
Poison: Extrasensory sweep if no Drapion
Bug: No switchins to it.
Steel: Surf the Heatran+Skarm, HP Fire surprise for Ferro or ttar fireblast/keldeo secret sword. Dark Pulse the Doublade.
Ghost: Dark Pulse everything.
Ground: Surf+Grass Knot+Ice Beam.
Rock: Surf+Ice Beam+ Low kick.
Psychic: Dark Pulse the Meloetta, AV Gallade can tank a hit and kill it if it's completely special, Dark Pulse kills slowbro and 2hkos mew so no switchins.
tl;dr Although Greninja's frail, it's wallbreaking capability cannot be overlooked and creates no switchins for many types. I suggest suspect testing this.
BST:
HP:72
ATK:95
DEF:67
SPA:103
SPD:71
SPE:122 (SanicFast)
Okay, the speed stat is whooping, but what makes this so deadly? PROTEAN; it gets STAB from all its moves, meaning it will hit HARD to almost anything. This thing has a few walls depending on it's set, and if it has the set that is intended to break a certain wall, it WILL.
It can be beaten by scarfs, but some users run scarf ninja to kill them, the point is it's unpredictable what set it is. Some runs expert belt and fakes a scarf as well and finishes you off when you lower your guard
Lemme show how Greninja beats the walls of different types:
Fighting: Extrasensory+Shadow Sneak or Scarf Extrasensory. Only MegaCham and Conkeldurr tank hits but they have their prospective walls in the types (Mandibuzz for Dark and Swampert and Alomomola, Slowbro(Megacham), Swampert(Conkeldurr)
Normal: The only type that can wall Greninja with Chansey and Porygon 2 but gets beaten by Keldeo or Bisharp, once they are down it's pretty much ogre.
Flying: You can do nothing, no switchins to Orbed Ninja (Unless you run Articuno but good luck with that 4x weakness to rocks). Taking down Orb-ed ninja is using a faster scarf, but if it's scarf, gg.
Fire: Surfin' through the walls.
Electric: Beams Zapdos, Surf does a number on magnezone, outspeeds scarf magnezone anyways. AV Elektross can tank a hit but dies from multiple switchins
Grass: One hope: Skymin, or else, if Ferro dies to Keldeo/TTar, Extrasensory/Ice beaming errything.
Dragon: Ice beams everywhere after Secret sword that Kyurem-B with Keldeo/Bisharp's Iron Head
Fairy: Gunk Shot does a huge number on fairies, but they can tank with the screens, but still does a huge number and stops BD Azumarill
Water: Grass knot+Dark Pulse+Extrasensory kills the walls.
Dark: Ice beam the Mandibuzz, Low Kick the ttar. RIP walls ;_;
Ice: Dark Pulse kills the Avalugg, Surf kills Piloswine, Articuno can wall it, but it's teammates can kill that.
Poison: Extrasensory sweep if no Drapion
Bug: No switchins to it.
Steel: Surf the Heatran+Skarm, HP Fire surprise for Ferro or ttar fireblast/keldeo secret sword. Dark Pulse the Doublade.
Ghost: Dark Pulse everything.
Ground: Surf+Grass Knot+Ice Beam.
Rock: Surf+Ice Beam+ Low kick.
Psychic: Dark Pulse the Meloetta, AV Gallade can tank a hit and kill it if it's completely special, Dark Pulse kills slowbro and 2hkos mew so no switchins.
tl;dr Although Greninja's frail, it's wallbreaking capability cannot be overlooked and creates no switchins for many types. I suggest suspect testing this.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
I am very happy with the ban of Mega Salamence. I am not a big fan of banning much things, but I am a supporter of suspect tests and in my opinion there are a few pokemon that definitely need the suspect test:
*Greninja (water/dark) Greninja is an awesome pokemon and the extra moves it gets are really helpful. In dark mono's Gunk Shot helps killing fairies, Extrasensory helps killing fighting types and HP Fire kills bugs. In water monotypes Gunk Shot and Ice Beam both helps against grass types and the power it has behind it moves helps it killing electric teams even when they aren't weak to the moves. Greninja is awesome at killing threats to for example M-Sableye (for example: you face a mono psychic team and M-Gardevoir threats your M-Sableye sweep, Greninja OHKOs the Gardevoir for you) and the ease Greninja has at killing threats is really a problem. A suspect test is definitely justified
*Mega Metagross (steel/psychic) Articuno I was already a supporter for a Medichamite suspect before ORAS. Now in ORAS Psychic got so many new mega's that are just awesome. Mega Gallade is in my opinion a better Medicham and Metagross is awesome too. Steel also got a new mega with Mega Metagross and both types are just terrifying to face at the moment. Mega Metagross makes steel mono's and psychic mono's just so good and he needs a suspect.
*Shaymin-S and Kyurem-W (grass and ice) I never felt Shaymin-S and Kyurem-W were helpful for the metagame. Both gave grass and ice monotypes just immense offensive power and in my opinion they do not help to balance the metagame.
I think TM93 formulated my thoughts very well:
Suspect Greninja, Metagrossite, Shaymin-S and Kyurem-W
I am not saying they need to be banned, but a suspect is definitely what is needed to balance the metagame
*Greninja (water/dark) Greninja is an awesome pokemon and the extra moves it gets are really helpful. In dark mono's Gunk Shot helps killing fairies, Extrasensory helps killing fighting types and HP Fire kills bugs. In water monotypes Gunk Shot and Ice Beam both helps against grass types and the power it has behind it moves helps it killing electric teams even when they aren't weak to the moves. Greninja is awesome at killing threats to for example M-Sableye (for example: you face a mono psychic team and M-Gardevoir threats your M-Sableye sweep, Greninja OHKOs the Gardevoir for you) and the ease Greninja has at killing threats is really a problem. A suspect test is definitely justified
*Mega Metagross (steel/psychic) Articuno I was already a supporter for a Medichamite suspect before ORAS. Now in ORAS Psychic got so many new mega's that are just awesome. Mega Gallade is in my opinion a better Medicham and Metagross is awesome too. Steel also got a new mega with Mega Metagross and both types are just terrifying to face at the moment. Mega Metagross makes steel mono's and psychic mono's just so good and he needs a suspect.
*Shaymin-S and Kyurem-W (grass and ice) I never felt Shaymin-S and Kyurem-W were helpful for the metagame. Both gave grass and ice monotypes just immense offensive power and in my opinion they do not help to balance the metagame.
I think TM93 formulated my thoughts very well:
TL;DR
Suspect Greninja, Metagrossite, Shaymin-S and Kyurem-W
I am not saying they need to be banned, but a suspect is definitely what is needed to balance the metagame
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Praise Nani Man for the best quickban I've seen in a while!
I have a few things to say about the upcoming suspect tests though. While I think it should be fine for all those listed to be tested, we should be cautious. Firstly, we should let the ladder settle down first somewhat. For example, with the inclusion of mega audino I see little reason for normal to struggle with Mega Medi in the way it previously did (of course it's still a big threat, but Normal can now wall it). Meanwhile there's also the case of being swept by something you're unprepared for and so thinking it broken. The great thing about monotype is how people come up with novel ways of beating big threats, and for this reason I think we should wait at least a few weeks before voting starts, preferably a longer. This will also give us time to create a complete list of potentially broken mons in monotype, without including things that appear to have a niche but in reality aren't that great.
I have a few things to say about the upcoming suspect tests though. While I think it should be fine for all those listed to be tested, we should be cautious. Firstly, we should let the ladder settle down first somewhat. For example, with the inclusion of mega audino I see little reason for normal to struggle with Mega Medi in the way it previously did (of course it's still a big threat, but Normal can now wall it). Meanwhile there's also the case of being swept by something you're unprepared for and so thinking it broken. The great thing about monotype is how people come up with novel ways of beating big threats, and for this reason I think we should wait at least a few weeks before voting starts, preferably a longer. This will also give us time to create a complete list of potentially broken mons in monotype, without including things that appear to have a niche but in reality aren't that great.
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