Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

[ryan]

Before I grind in points about the suspects, on the Choice Band Pangoro posts:

I've been using Choice Band Pangoro since before ORAS was released, and I love it. Only thing I have to say really is that I stronger prefer Mold Breaker Pangoro with Earthquake for Weezing and Superpower over Drain Punch (non-Iron Fist Drain Punch is too weak, and Superpower always hits stupid hard). In this meta at least, Mold Breaker EQ is much better than Poison-type coverage because Weezing is everywhere, and even though Fairy-types are also fairly common, none of them switch into Pangoro well anyways.

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 143-168 (46.8 - 55%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 177-208 (58 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Wee, now they can't Belly Drum either at all or without being taken out by priority.

If the popularity of Weezing drops a lot after this suspect, Iron Fist might be better, but I'd probably still prefer Superpower over Drain Punch anyways. Plus, you scare Weezing from coming in if you run Mold Breaker, even if you're not running Earthquake. Life Orb with Iron Fist Drain Punch is really strong too, and you can run Swords Dance or Taunt over Parting Shot if you go that route. Either way, it's a fantastic Pokemon.

As for the suspects, I don't think it's worth spending much time discussing the three Megas because I feel like they've been driven to hell and back. All I'll really say about them is that they've single-handedly made this game not fun for me to play at all. It's not even just in NU either, but I digress. The effect they have on the metagame is disgusting. You can't outrun Sceptile with anything but Choice Scarf users and Ninjask, and you can't even rely on priority to take it out because it has Giga Drain for recovery. You can't outrun Lopunny with anything but Choice Scarf users, Accelgor, and Ninjask, and it can run Fake Out to fuck with all of these. And boosted Altaria is nearly impossible to outrun on top of being incredibly bulky and powerful with reliable recovery and excellent coverage. It's not even like these Pokemon just fuck up offense either. They're all outrageously powerful and often require niche checks and counters that make you weaker to a variety of other Pokemon in the process. It's just impossible to account for the entire meta without using something like dedicated counter 1, dedicated counter 2, dedicated counter 3, Choice Scarf user that can't switch in, priority, priority, which is a flimsy team at best.

Like Cased, I'm really shocked that Dragalge managed to make the suspect list over Beedrill and Glalie. I don't think it's worth a ban. The main problem with Dragalge is that it is so easy to use because it's incredibly anti-meta right now. As others have mentioned, it gets a lot of free switches into Grass- and Poison-types, which are of course everywhere. But that over-reliance on Grass- and Poison-types is probably what is making people feel like it's so broken anyways. And this isn't Combusken where being anti-meta is just a perk of a broken Pokemon. You don't auto-lose the game when you give Dragalge a free switch. You might lose a Pokemon or see one get severely damaged, and that sucks. But you should also build your team in a way that prevents Dragalge from getting a bunch of free switches unless you're running dedicated answers such as Metang. As Amarillo mentioned, running Sleep Powder on Grass-types helps a lot with this. Not running Weezing on every team also helps a lot with this. I don't feel as though Dragalge puts enough of a strain on teambuilding to be considered for a quickban. I would like to see how the meta adjusts around this new threat rather than banishing it immediately. I could see how Dragalge could be broken down the line, but as it stands, I just don't believe it is. If I'm wrong, we can look at it again later.

Slurpuff is a weird case. I don't know that Drain Punch alone makes Slurpuff broken, but it might. I've handled Slurpuff the same way I always have: never letting it set up to begin with. Occasionally, it manages to slip by with a setup, and I get fucked over. But there are ways of beating it even if you do accidentally let it set up. On the one team I've built since ORAS that can be exploited for a free Slurpuff setup, I'm running a Scarf Tauros, which outspeeds it at +2 and kills it with Double-Edge. I think the biggest potential problem with is Slurpuff is a bulkier set. TheCanadianWifier was trying out a super bulky spread, which I'm sure can set up on most of the metagame pretty easily. With Drain Punch, it can recovery its health back, and with its bulkier spread, it is really resilient to priority and hits in general. I think the best set for this kind of spread is probably Play Rough / Belly Drum / Drain Punch / Aromatherapy, but I haven't tested it yet. Anyways, what I'm getting at is that in its current state, I don't see Slurpuff as quite broken, but I think given more time, people will find ways to make it more broken (such as with the bulky spread), which is what makes me torn.

So as a recap, right now my stance is ban all three Megas, do not ban Dragalge, and \_(:))_/ Slurpuff.

Also sorry for the tl;dr. I'll label shit for easier reading.

 

[greengrappler]

I have been using mega Sceptile and Dragalge for a few days now, and I must say I have formed an opinion on them.

Mega Scep is very difficult to stop. Once he gets a sub in he is very difficult to take out. I have been using special Sceptile and I have yet to see him fail to KO anything. Yes, he is stopped by scarf users, but I believe having to put at least one scarf user on every team is quite unhealthy. Pretty much nothing in the tier (Bar ferro, Togetic, and Klinklang) resists Grass+Dragon. I haven't used him enough to say wether he should go or not.

Drag: BAN BAN BAN BAN! Thanks to Adaptability, NOTHING can switch into this monster. Draco meteor nukes everything, Sludge wave hits Fairies, and what resist both of those? Steel. The ONLY steel types in the tier are Probopass and Steelix, both lack reliable recovery and get sit hard by Surf. Klinklang lacks reliable recovery, and Ferro gets hit hard by HP Fire. I am not saying that he is broken because nothing can switch into him, but he hits just insanely hard with Draco Meteor.

 

[Cased]

in all seriousness, we're talking about those five pokemon alone right now in this suspect test (that spans only the next few days), and as such i would very much like all discussion to be focused on them. you're my bro and i know you're very familiar with NU, but i don't really care if you or anyone else out there thinks that it's not worth talking about them because they're "obviously getting banned" - the whole point of having this suspect test is to explore all facets of these pokemon and discuss all of them thoroughly. your reaction is 100% why i'm not allowing anyone to send in votes until close to deadline; even if you're firmly convinced that things are broken, it's silly to refute discussion on them especially when they've been suspects for all of like 15 hours.

Sry babe just read Post 67,,,

Changed my mind a bit about Dragalge tbh, through more playing I've realized that abilities to switch-in are a lot larger than I mentioned when I first started playing with it. I think it's borderline honestly but I could definitely why people would want a ban. Adaptability Draco Meteor is amazing to the point where Pokemon that resist Dragon are still blown up. And fantastic coverage alongside Focus Blast and Sludge Wave allow it to hit everything that is able to beat Dragon moves. I'm usually very against banning Pokemon like Dragalge (Hell I love Stall / Bulky Balanced so I should probably be a lot more in favor than I am / was) but superb typing does allow many easy switch-ins and Adaptability + any boosting item in Specs / LO / Draco Plate that people have been fans of (Not a fan of Draco Plate personally) but yeah, Dragalge is a freakin' monster, I think people aren't really building in order to beat Dragalge, there are answers to it like Hollywood mentioned. But just wanted to mention I understand the ban arguments although I'm a bit on the fence.

Smogon NU is cool :3

 

[Brawlfest]

I have been using mega Sceptile and Dragalge for a few days now, and I must say I have formed an opinion on them.

Mega Scep is very difficult to stop. Once he gets a sub in he is very difficult to take out. I have been using special Sceptile and I have yet to see him fail to KO anything. Yes, he is stopped by scarf users, but I believe having to put at least one scarf user on every team is quite unhealthy. Pretty much nothing in the tier (Bar ferro, Togetic, and Klinklang) resists Grass+Dragon. I haven't used him enough to say wether he should go or not.

Drag: BAN BAN BAN BAN! Thanks to Adaptability, NOTHING can switch into this monster. Draco meteor nukes everything, Sludge wave hits Fairies, and what resist both of those? Steel. The ONLY steel types in the tier are Probopass and Steelix, both lack reliable recovery and get sit hard by Surf. Klinklang lacks reliable recovery, and Ferro gets hit hard by HP Fire. I am not saying that he is broken because nothing can switch into him, but he hits just insanely hard with Draco Meteor.

Just because nothing can switch into it doesn't necessarily mean it is broken. In BW NU, most of us remember how insanely powerful SpecsZard was, being infamous for literally 2HKOing every relevant pokemon in the meta. However, its crippling weakness to SR and reliance on a choiced item allowed it to continuously evade being listed as broken or bannable.
I think similarly of Dragalge atm. Sure it is top tier material, but just because it can 2HKO everything doesn't mean it will. Its poor speed and exploitable typing + item means it is pretty easy to take advantage of, and as a result it cannot reliably run Specs, what sets it apart from other pokemon, lest it become and issue to its own teammates. Again, I do not feel that the argument that Dragalge can capably 2HKO everything is a valid argument for its banning, as we can make similar arguments of Sawk, Beheeyem, etc.
Agreeing with Cased that I can see the validity of some ban arguments, but tbh I'm still BL on this topic.

Also Hollywood babe real men run LO Pangoros :p

 

[Fling]

Just because nothing can switch into it doesn't necessarily mean it is broken. In BW NU, most of us remember how insanely powerful SpecsZard was, being infamous for literally 2HKOing every relevant pokemon in the meta. However, its crippling weakness to SR and reliance on a choiced item allowed it to continuously evade being listed as broken or bannable.
I think similarly of Dragalge atm. Sure it is top tier material, but just because it can 2HKO everything doesn't mean it will. Its poor speed and exploitable typing + item means it is pretty easy to take advantage of, and as a result it cannot reliably run Specs, what sets it apart from other pokemon, lest it become and issue to its own teammates. Again, I do not feel that the argument that Dragalge can capably 2HKO everything is a valid argument for its banning, as we can make similar arguments of Sawk, Beheeyem, etc.
Agreeing with Cased that I can see the validity of some ban arguments, but tbh I'm still BL on this

The reason dragalge is so good is more so the fact that it gets so many free switch ins due to people having to run checks for puff mainly being Weezing so if your team consists of dragalge and puff and the opponent doesnt have a metang, you can just bait in their answer to puff and youve a free switch to dragalge nearly 100% of the time and then something is taking a massive hit. The fact that its not weak to rocks also lets you switch it in and out pretty freely as well.

 

[Punchshroom]

Sure it is top tier material, but just because it can 2HKO everything doesn't mean it will. Its poor speed and exploitable typing + item means it is pretty easy to take advantage of, and as a result it cannot reliably run Specs, what sets it apart from other pokemon, lest it become and issue to its own teammates.

You know I find it hilariously ironic that the reason Dragalge cannot afford to run Specs (the suspected Fairies) happen to be the very reason why Dragalge is thriving as much as it does right now, since the Fairies pressure many teams to run Poison-types to deal with them, which Dragalge easily deals with. The Fairies aren't the only threats whose success Dragalge is leeching off of though, as a huge majority of responses to pretty much all the other Megas in the tier will have some issues with Dragalge.

Again, I do not feel that the argument that Dragalge can capably 2HKO everything is a valid argument for its banning, as we can make similar arguments of Sawk, Beheeyem, etc.

One of the biggest things seperating Dragalge from other wallbreakers in the tier is how easily it can switch into the Pokemon it can wallbreak. Dragalge's bulk and typing which gives various resistances, particularly an immunity to poison and a relative disregard for paralysis, means that usually the worst a wall can do to Dragalge is burn it (Weezing, bulky Rotom), and Dragalge isn't offensively crippled by it either. The walls can use sleep-inducing moves (Vileplume) to put Dragalge out of commision, but since Dragalge attains such perfect neutral coverage it can easily go out of its way to carry a counter-move such as Sleep Talk without losing much effectiveness; there are even jokes on the chat about how Dragalge can just slot in Shadow Ball in its movesets if specially defensive Metang starts being run to counter it :P. Dragalge does have poor speed, but it can be good enough to outrun the various walls in the tier since it isn't unsalvageably slow (Mega Camerupt anyone?); I mean even the speedier wallbreakers, such as Sawk, Magmortar, and Zangoose, were never really classified as 'fast' over simply 'above average speed', since they don't outrun most offensive sweepers. Need I mention that Dragalge doesn't need a Choice item, Life Orb or even a boosting move to wallbreak as effectively as it does, which again puts it ahead of other wallbreakers of the tier. Finally, people are underestimating how tricky to revenge kill Dragalge is, since it isn't frail for a wallbreaker and won't go down to just any strong neutral STAB. Heck, the bulk and typing means that a healthy Dragalge can even check certain sweepers such as Lilligant, Ludicolo, and Typhlosion, and then easily nab a kill off of them since offensive teams are certainly hard pressed to find Dragalge switch-ins; this means it can still contribute strongly against offensive teams, which is an impressive feat for a wallbreaker in this tier.

Of course the "2HKO everything in the tier" isn't a new argument brought up in NU, but the issue with Dragalge is how consistently it does it compared to other Pokemon of its calibre; the bulk, typing, effective neutral coverage, and relative unrestriction in terms of items or even movepool are a combination of traits only Dragalge possesses while fitting the criteria of "2HKO all" wallbreaker.

 

[greengrappler]

To better explain my above post, let me post a common situation both I and my opponents have faced.
The situation: You opponent has X, who is at full HP, you have Y, who is the only thing keeping X from sweeping your team.
Turn Z: Opponent sends out X.
Turn Z+1: You send out Y, but the opponent double switches into Dragalge.
Y cannot 1HKO Dragalge and you need Y for X, so you need to switch, but whatever you switch into will have to stomach a Draco Meteor, leaving you very likely to lose a team member.

Also, I hate to break it to you guys but...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It does only a little bit less.

 

[Quite Quiet]

Also, I hate to break it to you guys but...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It does only a little bit less.

The real calc would actually be:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
so it doesn't do less, but more :)

But as most people probably know by now, I don't consider Dragalge broken purely by looking at the damage output, since 2hko'ing the entire metagame doesn't mean anything (Rampardos). But when you factor in typing, stats and how favorable the metagame is to it at the moment it really is a borderline case for me. It could go either way but I'd honestly prefer not make a hasty decision right now and rather bring it up later if it really is such a large issue.

Slurpuff though I have no qualms about, it's a ban-me-please that needs to be gone. Sets up on too much, needs so little support now and can even get through Steel types. The only real downside is the need to set up, but with the amount of scarfed mons around to beat the fast megas, there really isn't a lack of set-up opportunities for it.

 

[Teddeh]

The reason why broken mons i.e scep, beedrill, slurpuff + altaria are so good right now is because this dragon is sat behind them destroying everything that counters or checks these "broken" mons (obviously not the sole reason but you get the point). It's far too powerful now. Before it got adaptability, it lacked power since it lacked getting the vital 2-hit ko's that it needed such as AV yama taking under half from specs draco's and steelix and other "resisted" mons that now nearly get ohko'd could take hits rather more comfortably, and that was with a choice specs. Hence it wasn't anywhere near as good in the XY meta as an offensive mon. Now, it's effortless for the dragon, it really is. It's typing, bulk, move pool all help it absolutely destroy everything in its path to carve the way for sweepers, namely slurpuff or altaria or even sceptile. Any thing that is remotely checked or countered by a poison type exclusively. It's a godly team mate on offense and it's a very handy wall breaker on balance. There are simply not many stops to it unless you want to run metang, by which switch ins are limited and it can only take a draco meteor a certain amount of times since it doesn't have lefties or a recovery move.
I can understand where people are coming from when they say "let's see how the metagame will develop before we decide to ban this pokemon" which I can understand, but my point of view is that the megas and pokemon that are so good wouldn't function as well without dragalge helping it. It would make the meta a lot more balanced if it were to leave, it's too centralizing. It's on offense, balance, it can fit on stall obviously; it's really too good for the meta.
But in conclusion, I think in the current meta we have, it's broken and needs to be banned. That's after playing with it, against it with a variety of teams and i can tell it's just clicking buttons, there's not thought process involved.
And even if the 3 megas were to leave the tier, it would be universally good with any sweeper or offensive mon that is troubled by poison or grass types as they are needed to check certain mons in the meta, such as fighting types or gatr (since mega-scep is going to go), it isn't a case of whether we should ban it, it's when we're going to ban it.

 

[Davon]

I don't think Dragalge is broken, but just really good in the current metagame since Dragalge gets free switch-ins from bulky poisons that are needed to check the new megas. I think the best approach regarding Dragalge would be to wait to see how the metagame develops once the new megas are banned because when they are banned we'll be less dependent on those bulky poisons that give Dragalge so many opportunities to drop nukes. Dragalge isn't to be underestimated though and is definitely worthy of being a suspect!

 

[Teddeh]

Wtf, this isnt math. Would you mind writing turn 1 and turn 2 like a normal human being? And using actual examples of pokemon instead of x and y would give your argument alot more credibility. What this looks like to me is just some kind of statement to prove to everyone that you know that 1+1=2.

He was saying it in a general stand point. For example, if the person has dragalge on their team and a feraligatr. Dragalge comes in on a seismitoad (the only gatr check/counter on their team), dragalge can kill the toad but toad can't kill dragalge, however it can severely damage it. He has to sack a different mon because he knows that he needs toad for gatr. It wasn't hard, and you should be less rude.

 

[Mysil]

He was saying it in a general stand point. For example, if the person has dragalge on their team and a feraligatr. Dragalge comes in on a seismitoad (the only gatr check/counter on their team), dragalge can kill the toad but toad can't kill dragalge, however it can severely damage it. He has to sack a different mon because he knows that he needs toad for gatr. It wasn't hard, and you should be less rude.

Well there you go. Makes alot more sense when you use actual examples. Maybe I overreacted a little bit, but writing turn z followed by turn z+1 is definetively unecessary, and I cant see any reason to use mathematical variables in this kind of setting other than come off as some smart guy. It just annoyed me is all.

 

[Dentricos]

Not going to read what other people posted until after I post my opinions on the matter to keep my first impressions unbiased.


Altarianite:

Yeah this thing definitely deserves to go. It has great typing, set up moves, power to boot, and brilliant typing + pixilate. I've faced this many times and although it's easy to handle when used poorly in the right hands this thing is ALWAYS a monster with very few checks and, correct me if I'm wrong, no counters as of the moment that it can't add coverage for. In addition to this it gets solid recovery in roost and if someone hits u with toxic or WoW on switch in before u mega evolve u can switch out and activate natural cure. Although dragon dance is generally best set from what I've seen, it can run a solid defensive set and a solid special attacking set. Ban

Dragalge

So what basically happens is this shits all over most things in the meta coming in and dropping bomb on the other team that almost nothing in NU can handle if the draglge user predicts correctly. the few things that can switch in are often worn down because they lack the solid recovery to keep up with it.

On the other hand this is fairly slow and can be forced to switch out a lot. But even if the other team is hyper prepared for this mon it can STILL put in work. There is no real way to stop this and it really has to go... Ban


Lopunnite

Lopunny is so damn good. It can hit hard with it's stabs which nothing in the game resists. It has an outstanding speed tier at 135. It also has access to baton pass shenanigans and can use healing wish if you get pretty close to dying. Very few things can switch in. I find granbull works in that manner.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 154-183 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO

However 135 may be high but it cannot be boosted with say a life orb or choice band so if the mon is running bulk and not weak to fighting the normal attack will often only do about half. Xatu is not that bulky and it can live a hit. Then lopunny is frail (ISH) and can be killed fairly easily. Yes I think it deserves S rank BUT you have to realize that it takes up the mega slot on your team and as great as it is I don't feel it is quite BROKEN. It will likely move up by usage since it is good in higher tiers but I don't feel we need to quickban. No Ban

Sceptilite

Perfect movepool offensively it can run an amazing special set that has few counters and has that sick nasty speed tier only tied by accelgor and Mega-Bee asshole. Although there are some things that can switch in on the special version most get hurt by HP electric (mantine, maril, ect). Then it can run a nasty physical verion that will destroy those that expect a special version with sub, eq, leaf blade, ect it has a wide variety of moves to chose from.

Although both sets have things that can come in on it I can't see the meta functioning smoothly with mega sceptile in the tier. Ban

Slurpuff

I would like to start by pointing out that before it got drain punch it was amazing as a sweeper. It is still capable of running a dangerous special set. Now that it has drain punch this thing is even more of a monster late game. if it finds ANY opportunity to set up it can now only be stopped by poison types and maybe a very VERY good health steelix.

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 248-292 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It is very easy to play around killing a poison type and if u save it to the end They could easily through that curveball of being a special slurpuff with psychic! Although it is playable it is just far to good to be in the tier. Kinda on the fence about this but I'm leaning toward ban. Ban

I just wanna bring up Mega Beedril... I feel it deserves more credit for what it does in this tier compared to lopunny I feel Bee is better :/

 

[Bobby REKT]

Not going to read what other people posted until after I post my opinions on the matter to keep my first impressions unbiased.

Altarianite:

Yeah this thing definitely deserves to go. It has great typing, set up moves, power to boot, and brilliant typing + pixilate. I've faced this many times and although it's easy to handle when used poorly in the right hands this thing is ALWAYS a monster with very few checks and, correct me if I'm wrong, no counters as of the moment that it can't add coverage for. In addition to this it gets solid recovery in roost and if someone hits u with toxic or WoW on switch in before u mega evolve u can switch out and activate natural cure. Although dragon dance is generally best set from what I've seen, it can run a solid defensive set and a solid special attacking set. Ban

Dragalge

So what basically happens is this shits all over most things in the meta coming in and dropping bomb on the other team that almost nothing in NU can handle if the draglge user predicts correctly. the few things that can switch in are often worn down because they lack the solid recovery to keep up with it.

On the other hand this is fairly slow and can be forced to switch out a lot. But even if the other team is hyper prepared for this mon it can STILL put in work. There is no real way to stop this and it really has to go... Ban


Lopunnite

Lopunny is so damn good. It can hit hard with it's stabs which nothing in the game resists. It has an outstanding speed tier at 135. It also has access to baton pass shenanigans and can use healing wish if you get pretty close to dying. Very few things can switch in. I find granbull works in that manner.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 154-183 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO

However 135 may be high but it cannot be boosted with say a life orb or choice band so if the mon is running bulk and not weak to fighting the normal attack will often only do about half. Xatu is not that bulky and it can live a hit. Then lopunny is frail (ISH) and can be killed fairly easily. Yes I think it deserves S rank BUT you have to realize that it takes up the mega slot on your team and as great as it is I don't feel it is quite BROKEN. It will likely move up by usage since it is good in higher tiers but I don't feel we need to quickban. No Ban

Sceptilite

Perfect movepool offensively it can run an amazing special set that has few counters and has that sick nasty speed tier only tied by accelgor and Mega-Bee asshole. Although there are some things that can switch in on the special version most get hurt by HP electric (mantine, maril, ect). Then it can run a nasty physical verion that will destroy those that expect a special version with sub, eq, leaf blade, ect it has a wide variety of moves to chose from.

Although both sets have things that can come in on it I can't see the meta functioning smoothly with mega sceptile in the tier. Ban

Slurpuff

I would like to start by pointing out that before it got drain punch it was amazing as a sweeper. It is still capable of running a dangerous special set. Now that it has drain punch this thing is even more of a monster late game. if it finds ANY opportunity to set up it can now only be stopped by poison types and maybe a very VERY good health steelix.

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 248-292 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It is very easy to play around killing a poison type and if u save it to the end They could easily through that curveball of being a special slurpuff with psychic! Although it is playable it is just far to good to be in the tier. Kinda on the fence about this but I'm leaning toward ban. Ban

I just wanna bring up Mega Beedril... I feel it deserves more credit for what it does in this tier compared to lopunny I feel Bee is better :/

I just can't fathom that'd you'd argue for a a Mega Sceptile ban, but not a Mega Lopunny ban.. Hands down, the meta atm is extreme hyper offense with the unstoppable Dragalge+Lopuny core,and that requires 0 skill and it's just not fun at all. There are no counter to mega lopunny, and only 2-3 checks, and those checks get worn down by 12% from rocks, and every mons takes ATLEAST 25% from HJK, so at the minimum, mons are taking around 37% per switch in, that is absolutely ridiculous, and it's just not fun to play against when the checks of mega lopo get 100-0'd by the nuclear bomb known as Dragalge. Might I add that this mon can run 2-3 sets, can get bpass'd to, and it can prevent status with sub, and can preserve a second wincon with healing wish, fuck that shit man! BAN THIS MON

 

[Fling]

Lopunnite

Lopunny is so damn good. It can hit hard with it's stabs which nothing in the game resists. It has an outstanding speed tier at 135. It also has access to baton pass shenanigans and can use healing wish if you get pretty close to dying. Very few things can switch in. I find granbull works in that manner.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 154-183 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO

However 135 may be high but it cannot be boosted with say a life orb or choice band so if the mon is running bulk and not weak to fighting the normal attack will often only do about half. Xatu is not that bulky and it can live a hit. Then lopunny is frail (ISH) and can be killed fairly easily. Yes I think it deserves S rank BUT you have to realize that it takes up the mega slot on your team and as great as it is I don't feel it is quite BROKEN. It will likely move up by usage since it is good in higher tiers but I don't feel we need to quickban. No Ban

You shouldn't solely judge the mon on its damage output, its an important aspect but if we decide to ban stuff based on that fact alone we should ban rampardos and other power houses which would be ridiculous. Lopunny is great because of the fact that it has scrappy fake out and hjk which is amazing coverage. It also has access to healing wish and baton pass making it an incredibly useful mon. It can set up subs as people protect on the fake out, It has amazing speed and its just incredibly hard to deal with if your opponent knows what hes doing.

 

[Dentricos]

I just can't fathom that'd you'd argue for a a Mega Sceptile ban, but not a Mega Lopunny ban.. Hands down, the meta atm is extreme hyper offense with the unstoppable Dragalge+Lopuny core,and that requires 0 skill and it's just not fun at all. There are no counter to mega lopunny, and only 2-3 checks, and those checks get worn down by 12% from rocks, and every mons takes ATLEAST 25% from HJK, so at the minimum, mons are taking around 37% per switch in, that is absolutely ridiculous, and it's just not fun to play against when the checks of mega lopo get 100-0'd by the nuclear bomb known as Dragalge. Might I add that this mon can run 2-3 sets, can get bpass'd to, and it can prevent status with sub, and can preserve a second wincon with healing wish, fuck that shit man! BAN THIS MON

However nuclear bomb dragalge is going uncontested. Personally I think after we ban the first 4 or 5 we need to test other things. Some things the only reason not to use is because they take up a mega slot and therefor hinder your team. Also I like how people think that me saying I don't think it should be banned means I don't think it's good. I just can't see it in the first set of quickbans. Still easily S. Not changing my opinion lol.

 

[The Goomy]

However nuclear bomb dragalge is going uncontested. Personally I think after we ban the first 4 or 5 we need to test other things. Some things the only reason not to use is because they take up a mega slot and therefor hinder your team. Also I like how people think that me saying I don't think it should be banned means I don't think it's good. I just can't see it in the first set of quickbans. Still easily S. Not changing my opinion lol.

Dentri, this is not a forum to post what you believe to be the popular opinion, but to say what your opinion is, and let the public decide their own opinions.

I in fact, do not think Dragalge is broken, or that it needs to be banned. And I hit #1 today, so I may be decent at this messed up tier.

Leave the propaganda at home and make clear, concise arguments...not flamboyant hyperbole. :]

 

[Ares]

I in fact, do not think Dragalge is broken, or that it needs to be banned. And I hit #1 today, so I may be decent at this messed up tier.

Can you tell me why? Cause in this meta it is literally a free switch in to anything that wants to try and stop slurpuff and any other physical threat. The free switch allows it to seriously cripple or KO opposing members on the enemy team. This is what makes it bannable in my eyes.

 

[Ares]

Dragalge: Yes, it can OHKO Steelix with Draco Meteor. Is it broken? No. Just because it hits like a truck doesn't make it broken. Rampardos hits equally hard, but it's not broken in this tier because it's slow. Granted Dragalge does have some decent bulk, but you can beat dragalge in the team builder. Run enough speed on your walls to beat 187 speed. And you can normally kill it with EQ, etc. In addition, Dragalge being good is refreshing in a tier that has been dominated by fire spam for a long time. Finally, the thing that makes dragalge broken is the fact that weezing has to be on every team to stop altaria, lopunny, slurpuff, and check sceptile, and you're guarenteed free switches every game. Once those mons get banned (i'll get to scept), the tier won't be as centralized around poison types that dragalge can feast on. Offense also generally has no issue with alge. no ban.

So I went back to re-read your argument for it, and the first one I'm going to address is the fact that you say it will be better after other mons get banned. You shouldn't base your argument for a no ban upon that logic because you have to look at if Dragalge is broken in this meta or not. If it gets banned and in the future it looks like it wont be broken, it can get retested and reintroduced into the meta and then you can say it isn't broken with that logic. The second point I want to address is that you compare it to Rampardos, because of their power, the problem with Rampardos is that it doesn't have good typing and doesn't have a super spammable STAB. Dragalge has good typing meaning it can switch and check multiple things and it has two STAB moves that it can easily spam in Draco Meteor and Sludge Bomb. Also on a sidenote the running enough speed to beat 187 doesn't work cause ppl have taken to running max speed Dragalge and also the difference in bulk is noticeable.

Edit: oh was thinking of Pangoro which is 215 or something, but the point stands that the bulk difference is noticeable.

 

[Fling]

Dragalge: Yes, it can OHKO Steelix with Draco Meteor. Is it broken? No. Just because it hits like a truck doesn't make it broken. Rampardos hits equally hard, but it's not broken in this tier because it's slow. Granted Dragalge does have some decent bulk, but you can beat dragalge in the team builder. Run enough speed on your walls to beat 187 speed. And you can normally kill it with EQ, etc. In addition, Dragalge being good is refreshing in a tier that has been dominated by fire spam for a long time. Finally, the thing that makes dragalge broken is the fact that weezing has to be on every team to stop altaria, lopunny, slurpuff, and check sceptile, and you're guarenteed free switches every game. Once those mons get banned (i'll get to scept), the tier won't be as centralized around poison types that dragalge can feast on. Offense also generally has no issue with alge. no ban

Yea sorry just found it there. The point about how once the megas get banned dragalge wont be as good is irrelevant as its being suspected now so it should be based on the current meta not on your preconceived notions of what the tier is going to be. The comparison with rampardos is just ridiculous I really dont think I need to explain why tbh.

 

[Dentricos]

Dentri, this is not a forum to post what you believe to be the popular opinion, but to say what your opinion is, and let the public decide their own opinions.

I never shut down anyones opinion O.o

In fact I'm quite sure this would more apply in my defense cause lopunny being banned is popular opinion and I disagree with it lel

I guess I didn't realise not everybody thought it was going tho I will admit that. But I don't think u should base a quickban on a popular core.... maybe a suspect test but not a quickban XD

And I hit #1 today, so I may be decent at this messed up tier.

Implying I'm not good? My Dentrisand account is 24 - 1 in this meta.

Dentricos is the account I play when I'm not fully tuned in to the game or trying to use other teams.

Leave the propaganda at home and make clear, concise arguments...not flamboyant hyperbole. :]

-.- how were my opinions propaganda? I litterally stated my thoughts on why they should or should not be banned and gave reasons why.


Sorry if I misinterpreted the intent behind ur message. I feel targeted easily XD

 

[The Goomy]

So I went back to re-read your argument for it, and the first one I'm going to address is the fact that you say it will be better after other mons get banned. You shouldn't base your argument for a no ban upon that logic because you have to look at if Dragalge is broken in this meta or not. If it gets banned and in the future it looks like it wont be broken, it can get retested and reintroduced into the meta and then you can say it isn't broken with that logic. The second point I want to address is that you compare it to Rampardos, because of their power, the problem with Rampardos is that it doesn't have good typing and doesn't have a super spammable STAB. Dragalge has good typing meaning it can switch and check multiple things and it has two STAB moves that it can easily spam in Draco Meteor and Sludge Bomb. Also on a sidenote the running enough speed to beat 187 doesn't work cause ppl have taken to running max speed Dragalge and also the difference in bulk is noticeable.

I didn't base my argument around that...if you read you'll see why I think it's not ban worthy in this meta. (this is also directed to Fling > Knock Off ) I made another off hand comment that it won't be as good even if it does stay, making it even less ban worthy...didn't think that was too difficult tbh. Perhaps I should have put "broken". Dragalge is frail with no investment, regardless of typing, and Head smash is very spammable. lol. Also. 187 is MAX SPEED DRAGALGE. -

Dentricos I never said you were bad calm down.

 

[greengrappler]

Well there you go. Makes alot more sense when you use actual examples. Maybe I overreacted a little bit, but writing turn z followed by turn z+1 is definetively unecessary, and I cant see any reason to use mathematical variables in this kind of setting other than come off as some smart guy. It just annoyed me is all.

Sorry, doing too much Algebra in math. Anyway, if I said "turn 15" a bunch of people would complain stuff like "Oh no, nobody would send out Drag at turn 15." And I figure it must be common knowledge on how to substitute a letter for a number.

 

[Fling]

I didn't base my argument around that...if you read you'll see why I think it's not ban worthy in this meta. (this is also directed to Fling > Knock Off ) I made another off hand comment that it won't be as good even if it does stay, making it even less ban worthy...didn't think that was too difficult tbh. Perhaps I should have put "broken". Dragalge is frail with no investment, regardless of typing, and Head smash is very spammable. lol. Also. 187 is MAX SPEED DRAGALGE. -.

Can we please stop talking about rampardos in a comparative light with dragalge, yes theyre both powerful and have spammable stabs but the real reason why dragalge is so good atm is because it gets so many free switch ins which is something rampardos doesn't have. Saying uninvested dragalge is frail is as youd say flamboyant hyperbole, zangoose is frail, dragalge has base 123 sp def and 90 def. Its not frail.

 

[The Goomy]

Can we please stop talking about rampardos in a comparative light with dragalge, yes theyre both powerful and have spammable stabs but the real reason why dragalge is so good atm is because it gets so many free switch ins which is something rampardos doesn't have. Saying uninvested dragalge is frail is as youd say flamboyant hyperbole, zangoose is frail, dragalge has base 123 sp def and 90 def. Its not frail.

Zangoose is fast though...and it doesn't get really any free switch ins against offense. And there on mons on stall that wall it...and if you don't want to give it free switch ins...PREDICT IT TO COME IN..and double switch. OR. Build your team such that. It doesn't constantly get to come in for free.