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Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
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Diggersby in STABmons is pretty much exactly like Aegislash suspect in OU, despite their difference ways of functioning.
I won't go straight up and say that it's broken. Because honestly, it isn't. Diggersby isn't hard to switch in to, isn't hard to force out, isn't hard to wall. Quite honestly, it's your average, every day revenge killer, on extreme steroids. But that doesn't make it broken. The shell smash set is admittedly very hard to stop, but hell, shell smash meloetta is extremely hard to stop without fake out and I don't see anyone complaining. Shell smash bibarel and belly drum Stoutland are very hard to stop, but I don't see anyone complaining. So, why is it ban worthy?
However, if we take a look at the things that diggersby does revenge kill effectively, well, that's pretty much 3/5ths of all the pokemon in the game (not counting ubers). If you come up with a new, innovative idea that's very anti-meta, very effective, and original, and suddenly find out that "oh, it's weak to diggersby", well, that idea is pretty much not as good now. So many pokemon in STABmons are held back simply because they are weak to diggersby. I'm comparing Diggersby to Aegislash because Aegislash limited the potential of so many pokemon in OU that entire sets were sometimes marked as "not as good" due to being weak to Aegislash. Yes, there are numerous counters to this thing. Yes, it usually doesn't cause too many problems. But the way it limits the STABmons metagame from growing; developing; changing; that in itself is the main reason why diggersby should be looked upon.
Okay, so there are other fake out + espeeders in the meta. I get that. However, most of them are far weaker (they can still revenge kill, just not with the effectiveness of diggersby.), and the only one that's stronger is Ursaring. Unfortunately, Ursaring suffers from severe speed and longevity problems, meaning that it can be whittled down easily for a chance for other sets on your team.
As for the other fake-speeders, the power difference is extremly noticeable:
Since Braviary is the next strongest relevant one, I used it for calcs:
Another thing worth noting is that Braviary can only try to revenge kill a limited number of times due to its stealth rock weakness, as opposed to diggersby, who simply doesn't care about stealth rock whittling it down.
Just my 2 cents.
I won't go straight up and say that it's broken. Because honestly, it isn't. Diggersby isn't hard to switch in to, isn't hard to force out, isn't hard to wall. Quite honestly, it's your average, every day revenge killer, on extreme steroids. But that doesn't make it broken. The shell smash set is admittedly very hard to stop, but hell, shell smash meloetta is extremely hard to stop without fake out and I don't see anyone complaining. Shell smash bibarel and belly drum Stoutland are very hard to stop, but I don't see anyone complaining. So, why is it ban worthy?
However, if we take a look at the things that diggersby does revenge kill effectively, well, that's pretty much 3/5ths of all the pokemon in the game (not counting ubers). If you come up with a new, innovative idea that's very anti-meta, very effective, and original, and suddenly find out that "oh, it's weak to diggersby", well, that idea is pretty much not as good now. So many pokemon in STABmons are held back simply because they are weak to diggersby. I'm comparing Diggersby to Aegislash because Aegislash limited the potential of so many pokemon in OU that entire sets were sometimes marked as "not as good" due to being weak to Aegislash. Yes, there are numerous counters to this thing. Yes, it usually doesn't cause too many problems. But the way it limits the STABmons metagame from growing; developing; changing; that in itself is the main reason why diggersby should be looked upon.
Okay, so there are other fake out + espeeders in the meta. I get that. However, most of them are far weaker (they can still revenge kill, just not with the effectiveness of diggersby.), and the only one that's stronger is Ursaring. Unfortunately, Ursaring suffers from severe speed and longevity problems, meaning that it can be whittled down easily for a chance for other sets on your team.
As for the other fake-speeders, the power difference is extremly noticeable:
Since Braviary is the next strongest relevant one, I used it for calcs:
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 271-319 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 331-390 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 331-391 (102.4 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Fake out + Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 271-321 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 259-306 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 318-375 (90.5 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 271-319 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (this OHKO could be crucial)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 220-261 (73.5 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 331-390 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 331-391 (102.4 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Fake out + Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 271-321 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 259-306 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out + Extreme Speed vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 318-375 (90.5 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 271-319 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (this OHKO could be crucial)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 220-261 (73.5 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Another thing worth noting is that Braviary can only try to revenge kill a limited number of times due to its stealth rock weakness, as opposed to diggersby, who simply doesn't care about stealth rock whittling it down.
Just my 2 cents.
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I'm just gonna say that stoutland is in no way stronger or more relevant than either braviary or staraptor who are like extremekiller but with fake out, dual stab, and nearly perfect coverage with a 120 BP move the former of which is stronger than extremekiller(admittedly extremekiller functions as a sweeper but braviary has a way to get to +2 semireliably without having to move and breaks through intimidate and kings shield/parting shot).
The only reason to use scrappy is for bellyspeed(ghosts don't setup unless they're aegislash who honestly couldn't care about extremespeed).
oh yeah forgot about braviary, will edit calcs with that instead
Braviary should be at +1 against Landorus-T (In most cases anyway). Just nitpicking.
FakeSpeeding is usually used on weakened / SSed foes. And despite that, setup sweeping is still seen a lot in the meta. So, your argument that Diggersby is FakeSpeeding innovation out of the Metagame is imaginary at best.
But of course, nobody would use a Kricketune, because Scizor-M would always offer better solutions.
FakeSpeeding is usually used on weakened / SSed foes. And despite that, setup sweeping is still seen a lot in the meta. So, your argument that Diggersby is FakeSpeeding innovation out of the Metagame is imaginary at best.
But of course, nobody would use a Kricketune, because Scizor-M would always offer better solutions.
I'd also like to point out that braviary should always be used on a team with rocks so as to act as defog bait/block.
Alternatively ambipom has 140 BP fakespeed so it might have a niche
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 118-139 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 157-186 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Overall minimum: 85.1%
Overall maximum: 100.5%
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 91-108 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 181-214 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Overall minimum: 84.1%
Overall maximum: 99.6%
Also when you calc multiple hits the damage roll is slightly different than a single hit whether it hits in one turn or not.
Alternatively ambipom has 140 BP fakespeed so it might have a niche
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 118-139 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 157-186 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Overall minimum: 85.1%
Overall maximum: 100.5%
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 91-108 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 181-214 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Overall minimum: 84.1%
Overall maximum: 99.6%
Also when you calc multiple hits the damage roll is slightly different than a single hit whether it hits in one turn or not.
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When calcing against lando ppl assume it's lando-t unless explicitly stated otherwise since lando-t is the defensive one. Next time say landorus-i
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
Or you can read the calc, which says landorus.
Which can be interpreted either way. Seeing as how Lando-T is more used, it's reasonable everyone would assume it.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
No, if it was landorus-t it would have said "Landoris-Therian"
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
actually, landorus Incarnate was called "landorus" pre BW2 due to being created first and not knowing of therians existance (kinda like how we call giratina JUST giratina, and not Giratina Alternate-which is the correct term.) so it kinda wins that title by default.
And no one uses giratina-o.
Eevee General I guess what had to be said was said. Now what has to be done needs to be done.
smooth af
smooth af
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
that doesn't change the fact that like landorus incarnate, it has a proper name that often goes unused due to the natural way we presented its name pre platinum. its kinda like...getting something i will call "version", then having a version 2, henceforth the original thing is forced to be named version 1 for consistancy sake. we dont call version 2 "version" because that's not the original "heir to the throne" so to speak. kinda like how playstation is now called PS1 due to having newer versions. neither of which is comfortably called "playstation" except of course...ps1
That doesn't change the fact that I have rarely seen lando-i called lando(the only time I can recall being that calc). Gira-a isn't called gira-a since everybody knows no one would ever use gira-o but it's hard to imagine a stall team without gira-a.
My post was also partially a joke hence why I crossed out "don't hate"
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
well, no one has been posting anything about diggersby anymore,
plus our conversation kinda reached a climax anyways, so its not like that conversation would last anyways lol.
EV
Banned deucer.
Thanks for contributing your thoughts and concerns, everyone. I can't say I'm thrilled with every post's content but I guess it should be expected with something as polarizing as the suspect at hand.
Without furtherrage ado, here it is:
Without further
No ban.
Diggersby is a major threat and should be prepared for (like Scizor, Thundurus, Keldeo, etc) and a good team will have answers for it. Luckily, some of its best checks are already good at checking other threats, meaning they're not deadweight if you're expecting Diggersby and it doesn't show up--they will still function well in the metagame and the cost to running them is minute.
These include Skarmory, who has options like King's Shield, Whirlwind, Metal Burst, Counter, Gyro Ball, plus Sturdy to beat it. Lando-T lowers its Attack off the bat, meaning even a x4 Ice Punch won't always OHKO, and you can switch out Lando with the knowledge of Diggersby's coverage to another teammate to absorb -1 attacks. Tangrowth not only carries SE STAB it also has Regenerator for lessening the damage it takes when facing Diggersby. Sableye can invert boosts before Diggersby can attack if it's running Belly Drum or Shell Smash, or it can burn or sleep it, and overall provides momentum and disrupts the opponents team. Quagsire might fear Precipice Blades, but its ability to burn or Toxic and then stall out with Protect+Recover on just about any other set makes it a superb option.
Those are only 5 examples. Others have already been mentioned. Plus there's Rocky Helmet, which you can slap on a lot of checks to chip away at Diggersby or your own FakeSpeed or Air Balloon to provide an immunity to Ground or Red Card to push out setup.
Finally, setup wasn't my main reason for suspecting Diggersby and here's why: every other Normal can do it and many do it better. My original concern was the new ORAS tutors, which do make it more unpredictable, but they also stretch its workload by prompting the player to try to beat all its checks and counters. Instead, like I've argued before, Diggersby's team should be doing that. Belly Drum is not a good option because it is vulnerable to enemy FakeSpeed, or if it runs Protect, it only has 2 moves left to attack and both STABs have immunities. Kangaskhan on the other hand can blast Sableye with Extreme Speed before a Topsy Turvy, the main answer to setup.
Tl;dr the pro-ban arguments failed to convince me that Diggersby are ruining the metagame. Yes, if it has the right coverage it can cripple or KO one of its checks, but so can something like Scizor, if it carries Superpower for Heatran, or Tyranitar, if it shoots off a Fire Blast on Scizor as it comes in. But then, assuming you have more team members left, you adjust your strategy based off that information. Diggersby is good--a staple, really--but not the harbinger of doom like some made it out to be. It needs to be prepared for, like other threats, but it doesn't require dedicated Diggersby-only checks to beat it. It just requires some flexibility that I think some players are unwilling to employ.
Diggersby is a major threat and should be prepared for (like Scizor, Thundurus, Keldeo, etc) and a good team will have answers for it. Luckily, some of its best checks are already good at checking other threats, meaning they're not deadweight if you're expecting Diggersby and it doesn't show up--they will still function well in the metagame and the cost to running them is minute.
These include Skarmory, who has options like King's Shield, Whirlwind, Metal Burst, Counter, Gyro Ball, plus Sturdy to beat it. Lando-T lowers its Attack off the bat, meaning even a x4 Ice Punch won't always OHKO, and you can switch out Lando with the knowledge of Diggersby's coverage to another teammate to absorb -1 attacks. Tangrowth not only carries SE STAB it also has Regenerator for lessening the damage it takes when facing Diggersby. Sableye can invert boosts before Diggersby can attack if it's running Belly Drum or Shell Smash, or it can burn or sleep it, and overall provides momentum and disrupts the opponents team. Quagsire might fear Precipice Blades, but its ability to burn or Toxic and then stall out with Protect+Recover on just about any other set makes it a superb option.
Those are only 5 examples. Others have already been mentioned. Plus there's Rocky Helmet, which you can slap on a lot of checks to chip away at Diggersby or your own FakeSpeed or Air Balloon to provide an immunity to Ground or Red Card to push out setup.
Finally, setup wasn't my main reason for suspecting Diggersby and here's why: every other Normal can do it and many do it better. My original concern was the new ORAS tutors, which do make it more unpredictable, but they also stretch its workload by prompting the player to try to beat all its checks and counters. Instead, like I've argued before, Diggersby's team should be doing that. Belly Drum is not a good option because it is vulnerable to enemy FakeSpeed, or if it runs Protect, it only has 2 moves left to attack and both STABs have immunities. Kangaskhan on the other hand can blast Sableye with Extreme Speed before a Topsy Turvy, the main answer to setup.
Tl;dr the pro-ban arguments failed to convince me that Diggersby are ruining the metagame. Yes, if it has the right coverage it can cripple or KO one of its checks, but so can something like Scizor, if it carries Superpower for Heatran, or Tyranitar, if it shoots off a Fire Blast on Scizor as it comes in. But then, assuming you have more team members left, you adjust your strategy based off that information. Diggersby is good--a staple, really--but not the harbinger of doom like some made it out to be. It needs to be prepared for, like other threats, but it doesn't require dedicated Diggersby-only checks to beat it. It just requires some flexibility that I think some players are unwilling to employ.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
now we wait until diggersby gets thousand arrows. then we will be forced to run yet another diggs suspect (or tarrows in general) seriously though, why didn't anyone wait until arrows to scream ban? it would have so much more reason to ban. and now if its not INCOHERANTLY broken, you cannot suspect it again iirc.
edit: then again, this IS eevees meta, so its really his/her choice
edit: then again, this IS eevees meta, so its really his/her choice
Some points I want to make that either haven't been made or that seem to have been overlooked when they have been made.
-Thinking of Diggersby as just an immensely good Normal type is ignoring that Diggersby is the only Normal type in the entire meta (Now that Mega Lopunny is gone) with STAB coverage for its Normal moves -other Normal types that carry Earthquake or Close Combat (Or the inferior Superpower) are substantially behind Diggersby in the ability to push through high damage on almost everything, even if they have more Attack, because they consistently underperform against Rock and Steel types when compared against Diggersby, often substantially.
-Diggersby doesn't help Stall defend itself against set-up sweepers, it helps Hyper Offense defend itself against set-up sweepers, and there's plenty of HO options for that. Stall generally already carries the tools to shut down set-up sweepers, with those tools being Stall choices in their own right.
-FakeSpeed is not the only thing Diggersby can do and arguing that Diggersby is fair because FakeSpeed Diggersby is fair is misrepresenting things. Literally every anti-ban argument has been predicated on the idea that we're discussing FakeSpeed Diggersby, not Diggersby. If FakeSpeed Diggersby was broken, then Diggersby would be broken, but FakeSpeed Diggersby being not-broken isn't the same thing as saying Diggersby isn't broken.
I'm particularly disappointed that the Eevee General's decision to not ban it frames things primarily in terms of FakeSpeed being the only thing worth discussing. (eg Rocky Helmet is primarily relevant for chipping FakeSpeed Diggersby, not any and every Diggersby build) This puts an official badge of approval on ignoring Diggersby's potential to do other things -a big part of what I was trying to convey in previous posts is that the pro-ban/anti-ban arguments were focusing on FakeSpeed and ignoring anything else it could do, and I don't think this was ever really taken seriously.
-By extension, part of what's going on with Diggersby is that it's flexible -my own point about set-up sweeper Diggersby isn't actually that it's broken in and of itself, but rather that it's very different from FakeSpeed Diggersby and that starting from the assumption that you're facing FakeSpeed Diggersby can seriously cost you.
-Also by extension, scouting out Diggersby tends to cost you (Very possibly you end up losing a Pokemon outright before you have any information to work with), and you do have to scout it since it actually has multiple viable sets -and not "carry Y move to surprise-counter X Pokemon" viable sets, but sets that stand on their own two feet.
Mostly though I'm just not a fan of the fact that the discussion has consistently focused on FakeSpeed Diggersby. That's not really a discussion about Diggersby, that's a discussion about FakeSpeed -there's a reason someone was arguing we shouldn't ban Diggersby because then what? We ban all FakeSpeeders? That reason being that the discussion was focusing on FakeSpeed, not on what Diggersby can do as a whole.
Put another way: is this decision "Diggersby is fair" or is it "FakeSpeed Diggersby is fair and other Diggersby don't matter?"
(I'm not trying to undermine the decision exactly, but I really am frustrated at how consistently FakeSpeed was the only thing treated as mattering, up to and including the "no ban" decision also mostly focusing on FakeSpeed)
-Thinking of Diggersby as just an immensely good Normal type is ignoring that Diggersby is the only Normal type in the entire meta (Now that Mega Lopunny is gone) with STAB coverage for its Normal moves -other Normal types that carry Earthquake or Close Combat (Or the inferior Superpower) are substantially behind Diggersby in the ability to push through high damage on almost everything, even if they have more Attack, because they consistently underperform against Rock and Steel types when compared against Diggersby, often substantially.
-Diggersby doesn't help Stall defend itself against set-up sweepers, it helps Hyper Offense defend itself against set-up sweepers, and there's plenty of HO options for that. Stall generally already carries the tools to shut down set-up sweepers, with those tools being Stall choices in their own right.
-FakeSpeed is not the only thing Diggersby can do and arguing that Diggersby is fair because FakeSpeed Diggersby is fair is misrepresenting things. Literally every anti-ban argument has been predicated on the idea that we're discussing FakeSpeed Diggersby, not Diggersby. If FakeSpeed Diggersby was broken, then Diggersby would be broken, but FakeSpeed Diggersby being not-broken isn't the same thing as saying Diggersby isn't broken.
I'm particularly disappointed that the Eevee General's decision to not ban it frames things primarily in terms of FakeSpeed being the only thing worth discussing. (eg Rocky Helmet is primarily relevant for chipping FakeSpeed Diggersby, not any and every Diggersby build) This puts an official badge of approval on ignoring Diggersby's potential to do other things -a big part of what I was trying to convey in previous posts is that the pro-ban/anti-ban arguments were focusing on FakeSpeed and ignoring anything else it could do, and I don't think this was ever really taken seriously.
-By extension, part of what's going on with Diggersby is that it's flexible -my own point about set-up sweeper Diggersby isn't actually that it's broken in and of itself, but rather that it's very different from FakeSpeed Diggersby and that starting from the assumption that you're facing FakeSpeed Diggersby can seriously cost you.
-Also by extension, scouting out Diggersby tends to cost you (Very possibly you end up losing a Pokemon outright before you have any information to work with), and you do have to scout it since it actually has multiple viable sets -and not "carry Y move to surprise-counter X Pokemon" viable sets, but sets that stand on their own two feet.
Mostly though I'm just not a fan of the fact that the discussion has consistently focused on FakeSpeed Diggersby. That's not really a discussion about Diggersby, that's a discussion about FakeSpeed -there's a reason someone was arguing we shouldn't ban Diggersby because then what? We ban all FakeSpeeders? That reason being that the discussion was focusing on FakeSpeed, not on what Diggersby can do as a whole.
Put another way: is this decision "Diggersby is fair" or is it "FakeSpeed Diggersby is fair and other Diggersby don't matter?"
(I'm not trying to undermine the decision exactly, but I really am frustrated at how consistently FakeSpeed was the only thing treated as mattering, up to and including the "no ban" decision also mostly focusing on FakeSpeed)
No offense Ghoul King, but regardless of whether or not the decision was made fairly, at this point you're just perpetuating a debate that has not only already been completed but, together with the Slowbro stuff, has basically torn apart the STABmons thread. I know at least one of my friends has been deterred from starting the meta by the constant arguments going on in the thread.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
to be honest, i think it was considered more then you think it was. diggersby really needs fakespeed to scare pokemon out, and without it its basically a powerful sweeper(or a deadly bander) but both suffer from the same fate that other setup sweepers/banders do. lack of setup chances/risk factor, and bandeds need to predict like a god to do anything useful (ESPECIALLY when being locked into normal/ground moves are 2 of the riskyest plays in the entire WORLD) i get they weren't talked about much, which is bizzare, but even so, i dont think that would change the end outcome of this suspect much, diggersby is strong, but it has plenty of counters to plenty of sets depending on which one you use, most teams using one of the best counters(sableye) which turns setup sweepersby into a joke. (plus eevee even posted his opinions on setup diggersby, meaning he actually gave it some consideration)
This doesn't really sound like he gave it much consideration to me. It sounds like it got dismissed by default. I don't even really agree that every other Normal type can do it better. Better by what metric? Bibarel has Simple, but other Normal types have... less Attack? Worse STAB coverage? What exactly makes them do it better?Eevee General said:
There's something of a difference between a discussion being completed and the discussion being told to stop because an official decision was handed down.
I'm not really sure how to respond to the "torn apart the thread" aspect. Yes, the Diggersby suspect led to big arguments. Why did it do so? Is it going to actually continue if the discussion continues? Is it dependent on discussing Diggersby, or are there other reasons the STABmons thread turned ugly that are still relevant if something else entirely is talked about?
And is it even socially acceptable to talk about what the other reasons might be?
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