Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

[GaryTheGengar]

Mega Steelix
Steelix is ridiculous. It has the natural bulk and typing to wall half the tier without even trying, as well as massive attack (383) with great STABS coming in at 100 and 120 bp. Steelix can easily switch in, set SR vs pretty much any physical pokemon bar a choice band fighting attack. It can come in again and again and just wall the absolute shit out of these pokemon, and fire off rly strong attacks. Its kinda hard to properly illustrate how broken this thing is on paper, but if you have played probably 2 matches of NU you realize how broken this thing is.

Ban, no question

Heliolisk
I was pretty on the fence about lizard for a while, but its STAB hyper voice 2hkos too much bulky shit for it to stay in my eyes. 109 power / speed combo is pretty ridiculous in the first place for nu, especially with its perfect coverage. If your opponent has one of the few mons that can tank a hyper voice semi-well (im talking 30-35%, so they can switch in once) you can either nail em with voice then volt switch out, or just volt switch the first time and use that to easily gain momentum. This mon easily forces switches, grabbing momentum all too easily with its coverage preventing any ground types from switching in to block its volt switch. I don't know why this thing is NU on usage, but I guess it can sit in limbo until it moves up to RU, cause its actually pretty decent there too.

Ban

 

[Bowtie Addo]

I suppose with the voting being up and finally having time to write up a post, I should post my thoughts on this matter as well.

Mega Steelix
I see a trend in mentioning that it has counters and that special Fire- and Water-type attacks are a way to deal with it; so I thought I'd come and try bash it a bit. While not a entirely broken Pokemon, I see Mega Steelix as having a deadly combination of defensive and offensive capabilities, which is where the problem comes in. It's insanely boosted physical bulk allows it wall a big part of the tier, even some of the stronger offensive Pokemon [e.g. Archeops, Cacturne, Bouffalant, Scyther], while its now decent and invested 75 / 95 Special bulk makes it fare quite well against other defensive Pokemon that are specially oriented. Besides those obvious defensive boosts, by being a Mega Evolution it grants a safe switch into incoming Knock Offs from which it takes low damage, thus putting an even bigger strain on physically offensive Pokemon that rely on a Choice Band / Scarf. Now, those defensive abilities wouldn't seem to be a huge problem alone, but they are also paired with an insanse base 125 Attack; and to put in a light what it truly means, uninvested Mega Steelix is only 6 Atk lower that Adamant 252 EVs normal Steelix. What this means is that as a defensive Pokemon, Mega Steelix has barely any switch-ins once it comes in. Being notably heavier than it's non-mega form grants Heavy Slam maximum power on most opposing Pokemon in the tier. Even glorified defensive Pokemon such as Seismitoad, that resist Steel, won't enjoy being caught on the switch with an Earthquake. Truly safe switches into Mega Steelix are just Ludicolo, Rotom-S and Torterra. Sure, there are powerful Fire and Water Types that can defeat it, but they are not switching in on Steelix; and when/if they get in, it's a matter of team matchup.
Steelix has so many qualities that it is always a bad idea to not run it, which is why, in my opinion, it ended up twisting the metagame around itself. I feel like it is now a negative influence upon the metagame, thus I am inclined on voting for a ban.

Heliolisk
Ahh Godpivot. Most of it was already posted- boasting 109 SpAtk and 109 Speed makes Heliolisk a big offensive threat and an awesome pivot in any stage of the match. Being able to outspeed such a big part of the tier makes it a great momentum gainer, and adding all the coverage options results in free Volt Switches any time it comes in. If ever needed, it can run other coverage moves such as Dark Pulse or Facos Blast to get past some of its shaky checks. A well played Heliolisk has only one drawback over the course of the match: getting worn down by its own Life Orb. Having two awesome abilities in Dry Skin and Solar Power elevates its usefulness even higher, be it by having a form of pseudo-recovery and giving it even more chances of coming in and take over momentum, or transforming it into a nuke with Choice Specs under the sun. The simple fact that SpD Torterra became a thing because of it shows how badly it influences the metagame. As for the claims of Heliolisk having bad defenses, all that I have to say is that you saw a poorly played Heliolisk.
I'm adamant about voting on a ban for Heliolisk.

---
Now for the hype HYPE HEYEPEPE

I think people are too scared of Flash Fire Typhlosion- it is the kind of ability that now boosts and also nerfs Typhlosion. You have to play more carefully around it, sure, but by using Flash Fire it also loses on the Blaze Fire Blasts that made it such a big threat even when you managed to wear it down.
Sheer Force Feraligatr is a beast, so bring out your Poliwrath, people. I'm really looking forward to see how big of an effect they'll have after the weather lizard leaves.

 

[Edwen]

Something interesting I've noted is that most of Gatrs checks are beaten by Sap Slipper pokes namely 252 HP, 232 Sp. Def, 20 Speed Gogoat (The 20 speed let's it outspeed base 70's ie Mantine, Ludicolo, and Poliwrath's that don't use a speed down nature with no investment.) and Bouffalant. Bouffalant can't really beat Poliwrath while Gogoat can set up on it all day thanks to the fact that Circle Throw won't break it's sub. However Bouffalant does better against Tangela. The only poke I can think of that beats one of these two plus Gatr is Gourgeist with Foul Play and Poliwrath if you're using Bouffalant over Gogoat.

Another interesting check I've found is Perish Song Politoed. It's 4HKOed by Earthquake with no boost, and is 3HKOed by a +1 Earthquake however it is almost always going to 2HKOed if there is a hazard up at +1 with an Attack + nature. While a Speed+ one only has a 14% chance to 2HKO. Politoed can Encore it into an unfavorable move, stall with protect, toxic it, or fish for scald burns. Of course there is always stuff like Scarf Lilligant to check it too.

 

[NotNova]

As promised, I will share my thoughts on Heliolisk in the tier now that voting is finally up.

At first, I had no doubts about voting for its ban- a properly played Heliolisk is absolutely devastating. It can be easily fit on offense and balance with moderate team support, but where it really shines is Volt Switching on its "counters" like Cradily and the like, giving you a free switch-in into a powerful wallbreaker or setup sweeper, which is a massive momentum gain and an advantage in the fight. I feel its real advantage truly is the choice of teammates, as this enables it to support its team well and give setup opportunities or allow Pokemon like Typhlosion to dent the opposing team for serious damage, with little lost on the part of the Heliolisk user.

Some have compared Heliolisk to other Electric types, like Raichu- and it is true that they do get Volt Switch and in the right situation could perform similarly. What seperates Heliolisk from its bretheren, however, are its unique qualities.

First off, it has a wonderful speed stat, with just a handful of viable Pokemon being naturally faster than it. This is a key component in making its other qualities work. It has a powerful secondary STAB in Hyper Voice, which complements its Electric typing well and allows it to threaten most Ground types even without coverage. It also has plenty of power behind its moves- enough to accomplish its role as a denter and momentum gainer while chipping away at the team. This allows it to keep whittling away at the opposing team and bringing in a threatening switch-in.

Just its natural speed and power are enough to have Heliolisk pull its weight very well against offense. But this is where another crucial part of Heliolisk's repertoire comes into play- its wide coverage. This allows it to hit almost everything that would try to deny it the Volt Switch and the easy momentum gain. Focus Blast to hit Ferrothorn and to more easily take down Mega Steelix, Surf to blast down most Ground types, most importantly Camerupt, Grass Knot to hit Seismitoad, Dark Pulse to hit Gourgeist... Even HP Ice is an option for Torterra, seeing as that has been an answer that, albeit usually mediocre against most Pokemon, does work well specifically against Heliolisk- this is obviously, however a sign of centralization.

Helio's power alone is enough to be a serious threat to offensive teams, and its seemingly unblockable Volt Switch denies the use of defensive checks, which simply get dented and then get to face a formidable, powerful teammate. Even against more defensive teams, its power and coverage mean it is still not dead weight.

The only weak-points that some have pointed out and that ultimately made me reconsider were its lack of bulk and susceptibility to hazards. After having a longer thought, though, I don't think either is enough of a detriment to make me consider not voting for a ban. The former is really not a problem for a Pokemon that can dodge incoming damage with Volt Switch and threaten most offensive Pokemon as-is, and its ability to switch in isn't ABSOLUTELY horrendous- its Special Defense stat is quite decent and it does have Dry Skin which allows it to, at least in theory, switch in on predicted Water moves.

The latter, however, would be quite a decent argument- if it wasn't for the fact that, first of all, not every team can afford to run both Spikes and Stealth Rocks, as Stealth Rock damage alone is simply not enough when compared to what havoc Heliolisk can unleash from a single switch-in, and second, for the fact that preventing and getting rid of hazards has never been as easy, with the answers to hazards being more numerous than ever. With Cryogonal, Sandslash and Claydol as viable spinners, plenty of defoggers, the ability to bounce hazards with Xatu, and just preventing the use of the moves altogether with a Taunt lead like Sash Archeops- it can definitely be worked around to the point where it is not an issue. Even without all this, offensive pressure can really prevent a great deal of hazard setters from getting the optimal amount of hazards- and suboptimal just isn't enough when fighting Heliolisk.

Fighting Heliolisk is fighting against stacked odds- where you're constantly on the defense, trying to prevent it from doing what its best at, while it simply grabs momentum and leaves you struggling. I personally think it is way too good at what it does and not a healthy presence in the tier- these are the reasons while I'll personally be voting for a BAN on Heliolisk.

 

[DrReuniclus]

Mega Steelix
Literally one of the hardest things to get past on opposing teams in the meta game. There are almost no physical attackers that are able break down this monster and with a solid base 120 stab backing it up, it is as effective offensively as it is defensively. There are almost no specially offensive mons that really can switch into it either and the ones that can really don't want to take either a STAB earthquake or heavy slam. However, if they do happen to have a switch in, it'll be obvious that they are going to go to this and you can almost always double into whatever mon you have as a check to the switch in, such as the case with switching in heliolisk on a mantine switchin. Also, mega steelix can work on almost any type of team as there is always space for. This is why I will be voting ban on Mega Steelix from NU.

Heliolisk
With literally probably one of the best movepools in the entire tier to hit almost the entire tier with a super-effective move and do a major chunk to anything's health, this thing is one of the largest threats that I currently see in nu. Especially with its amazing base 109 speed, allowing it to outpseed most of the meta with few exceptions (archeops and swellow), bar choice scarf mons. It is very similar to the case of greninja in ou as in NOTHING likes switching into this beast especially if you or your opponent is predicting correctly. There is also no loss in just volt switching out on a predicted switch especially since the ground types on the opposing teams are just going to be fearing either the grass knot or surf coverage move that could be coming on the next turn to 2hko most of the bulky grounds that could take on a volt switch. Dry Skin is also a nice added on ability allowing it to switch in to many different water mons allowing even more chances for it to go in and hit something hard. Also, late game it can easily finished off a weakened team especially once the choice scarf mon on the opposing team is gone. This is why I will be voting to ban Heliolisk from NU.

Also I might edit this later if I have time. I'm a little caught up with family stuff right now so I decided to write a quickie.

 

[Caiahar]

Mega-Steelix
ban all the snakes
This thing is a beast. It has 125 attack, which is nothing to scoff at, especially with that bulk. 75/230/95 is way more than decent. In fact, it can take an unboosted special hit. It walls half the entire NU metagame, namely physical, and can nail many special attackers hard on a switch. Walls the shit out of any physical, bar banded SE ones, and hit them harder. This thing is hardly balanced. Yes, it may have checks, but its not a sweeper. Just a massive tank with a massivish attack stat to go with it.
TLDR- BAN

Heliolisk
Now i don't know what the heck this thing is doing here in the first place. It pairs up pretty good with typh offensively. Typh doesnt like stray scalds when its locked into eruption, so Helio takes it, unless you're against Wrath or Toad, but you see it. It's Hyper Voice hits like a truck. Volt Switch/Surf/Hyper Voice gives really good coverage. Last one can be anything, like Grass Knot, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, you get what I mean. There are no true counters in Nu for this thing. You'll need to sack at least 1 mon or use 2 to kill this reptile.
It gives way too much offensive pressure on everything. Even it's checks will easily get killed with another move or another mon. This thing will kill offense pretty easily, so you're constantly on the defense, which isn't good for HO or semi-HO teams. Yes, many mons are made for killing HO, but this thing takes "good" way too far. Hazards aren't much of an issue; the amount of damage it can do on one switch in makes up for it. Trying to stall it? Theres taunt Archeops that goes pretty well with it. And hazards anyway get bounced by Xatu. Both equally do well to support this bugger.
Helio also has a god speed tier for NU, only some outspeed it, most of which cannot switch in.
In all, I think Heliolisk is unhealthy for the metagame, and teambuilding is cancerous while thinking of it.
BAN

 

[Teddeh]

Looking at the thread and at some of the reasons to ban mega-steelix, i'm not sure if i'm one to agree or not. I've been 50/50 with this pokemon the whole way during this ban process and it just seems to me that people want to ban it for the sake of banning it now so they can have a new meta-game and not because it's broken or deserving of a ban because its too good. I'm all for accepting people's choice to decide whether they want to ban it or not but I think some of these are for the wrong reasons.

Looking at mega-steelix as an individual pokemon in the NU metagame now, it's not too good in my opinion, just a really good pokemon that we haven't seen too much of. Nu hasn't seen anything like it in previous gens and it was something that took a little while to adapt to. I feel that before drops in february i was all for kicking it out of NU since there were very few counters and less checks and they were all obvious, however the drops provoked a new range of threats and each drop beats mega-lix 1v1 which made it fairly uncommon during my ladder (at the start at least) or at least made it predictable. Not to mention that people whenever giving reasons to ban this pokemon ignore its very obvious flaws that I'd like to put out there: It has a crappy base speed meaning that you can outspeed it with almost everything on your team. You know it's either clicking heavy slam, eq or stealth rock whenever it comes in which makes it very predictable and easy to check. It has a lot of weaknesses too; namely fire, water and fighting which are 3 of the most common offensive types in NU and aren't hard to put on a team. Not to mention the biggest flaw of steelix right now is that it is bait for u-turn with pokemon such as mesprit, scyther and other u-turners which allow you to fire off free surf's from helio or eruptions from typhlosion allowing it to kill momentum for steelix's team and invites teams to use their offensive fire, fighting and water types (mainly) against your team to cause pressure.

By me saying this, it's not me saying that mega-steelix isn't a good pokemon, i definitely agree that it is stupidly bulky, powerful and has excellent typing but people are ignoring the flaws that come with the pokemon. I think partly the reason why I am so 50/50 is because I was so convinced to want it gone before drops, but playing before and after drops has been different and I feel like steelix isn't unmanageable. It's a top tier threat that people need to prepare and look out for but I don't think that makes it broken in retrospect, it has notable weaknesses and it has multiple checks with a few counters. In conclusion to this, I think i'm going to be saying I won't be voting to ban mega-steelix for these reasons.

 

[HR.]

Looking at the thread and at some of the reasons to ban mega-steelix, i'm not sure if i'm one to agree or not. I've been 50/50 with this pokemon the whole way during this ban process and it just seems to me that people want to ban it for the sake of banning it now so they can have a new meta-game and not because it's broken or deserving of a ban because its too good. I'm all for accepting people's choice to decide whether they want to ban it or not but I think some of these are for the wrong reasons.

Looking at mega-steelix as an individual pokemon in the NU metagame now, it's not too good in my opinion, just a really good pokemon that we haven't seen too much of. Nu hasn't seen anything like it in previous gens and it was something that took a little while to adapt to. I feel that before drops in february i was all for kicking it out of NU since there were very few counters and less checks and they were all obvious, however the drops provoked a new range of threats and each drop beats mega-lix 1v1 which made it fairly uncommon during my ladder (at the start at least) or at least made it predictable. Not to mention that people whenever giving reasons to ban this pokemon ignore its very obvious flaws that I'd like to put out there: It has a crappy base speed meaning that you can outspeed it with almost everything on your team. You know it's either clicking heavy slam, eq or stealth rock whenever it comes in which makes it very predictable and easy to check. It has a lot of weaknesses too; namely fire, water and fighting which are 3 of the most common offensive types in NU and aren't hard to put on a team. Not to mention the biggest flaw of steelix right now is that it is bait for u-turn with pokemon such as mesprit, scyther and other u-turners which allow you to fire off free surf's from helio or eruptions from typhlosion allowing it to kill momentum for steelix's team and invites teams to use their offensive fire, fighting and water types (mainly) against your team to cause pressure.

By me saying this, it's not me saying that mega-steelix isn't a good pokemon, i definitely agree that it is stupidly bulky, powerful and has excellent typing but people are ignoring the flaws that come with the pokemon. I think partly the reason why I am so 50/50 is because I was so convinced to want it gone before drops, but playing before and after drops has been different and I feel like steelix isn't unmanageable. It's a top tier threat that people need to prepare and look out for but I don't think that makes it broken in retrospect, it has notable weaknesses and it has multiple checks with a few counters. In conclusion to this, I think i'm going to be saying I won't be voting to ban mega-steelix for these reasons.

I was pretty much in the same boat as you; I don't know if M-steelix is broken per say, but I think what is tipping me over the edge for banning it is that it is so easy to just throw on a team and check half the tier. It limits team building in that pokemon like zangoose, klinklang etc see very little use simply because M-steelix is on 90% of the teams. It also requires 0 support to be used effectively, and if used along with healing wish/wish support, pretty much ensures you won't be swept by a physical threat.

A counter argument that could be made not banning M-steelix is banning it will open the door for the bulky psychic types to reign again. M-Steelix is a lot tougher to decide on than Heliolisk imo (ban that stupid thing) but the reasons above are kind of what is swaying me to say ban.

 

[Teddeh]

I was pretty much in the same boat as you; I don't know if M-steelix is broken per say, but I think what is tipping me over the edge for banning it is that it is so easy to just throw on a team and check half the tier. It limits team building in that pokemon like zangoose, klinklang etc see very little use simply because M-steelix is on 90% of the teams. It also requires 0 support to be used effectively, and if used along with healing wish/wish support, pretty much ensures you won't be swept by a physical threat.

A counter argument that could be made not banning M-steelix is banning it will open the door for the bulky psychic types to reign again. M-Steelix is a lot tougher to decide on than Heliolisk imo (ban that stupid thing) but the reasons above are kind of what is swaying me to say ban.

Zangoose 2 hit ko's with close combat, I'd hardly say that stops zangoose from performing its role on a team, i'd even say it baits in mega-steelix with a swords dance set and oh ko's at +2 cc. There are a few pokemon that are hard walled by mega-lix, it happens and that's what comes with any metal snake. These pokemon were hard walled by steelix before it got a mega, it was just a case of steelix isn't as popular as mega-steelix. Pokemon like klingklang, swellow and scyther all have trouble with it, but as I mentioned that just because they are hard walled doesn't mean that they can't perform their roles successfully as they can u-turn on the snake into a fire type and cause problems that way and klingklang is just unlucky .>.

 

[HR.]

Zangoose 2 hit ko's with close combat, I'd hardly say that stops zangoose from performing its role on a team, i'd even say it baits in mega-steelix with a swords dance set and oh ko's at +2 cc. There are a few pokemon that are hard walled by mega-lix, it happens and that's what comes with any metal snake. These pokemon were hard walled by steelix before it got a mega, it was just a case of steelix isn't as popular as mega-steelix. Pokemon like klingklang, swellow and scyther all have trouble with it, but as I mentioned that just because they are hard walled doesn't mean that they can't perform their roles successfully as they can u-turn on the snake into a fire type and cause problems that way and klingklang is just unlucky .>.

fair enough on the zangoose, forgot about CC, but you get my point in that it hard counters a good chunk of physical attackers and checks over half the tier. M-steelix is so much better than regular steelix because it can take a hit and then 1-2hko pretty much all of the things its supposed to check/counter. Yeah U-turners are pretty annoying but pretty much any other physical attacker without u-turn is an easy switch in for M-steelix. (i.e klinklang, kanga, archeops, liepard, mawile etc) and even U-turners, you just have to play around and predict the u-turn once and you regain momentum (though this is just theorymon obv). But you make great points and I agree with you, just trying to bring up points on the other side.

 

[Teddeh]

fair enough on the zangoose, forgot about CC, but you get my point in that it hard counters a good chunk of physical attackers and checks over half the tier. M-steelix is so much better than regular steelix because it can take a hit and then 1-2hko pretty much all of the things its supposed to check/counter. Yeah U-turners are pretty annoying but pretty much any other physical attacker without u-turn is an easy switch in for M-steelix. (i.e klinklang, kanga, archeops, liepard, mawile etc) and even U-turners, you just have to play around and predict the u-turn once and you regain momentum (though this is just theorymon obv). But you make great points and I agree with you, just trying to bring up points on the other side.

Mawile runs fire blast which 2 hit ko's and lures, archeops can choose to run earth power, heat wave, u-turn to deal with steelix, kanga can choose to run earthquake or even low kick and can change item to life orb so that it does a good 45-55%, liepard can choose to run nasty plot pard which can do a decent chunk plus can u-turn out for momentum, klingklang can even choose to run magnet rise (idk it's prolly bad) but instead of choosing to ban this mon, i think people can choose to run sets that deal with it effectively.

 

[wolfenstein]

Mawile runs fire blast which 2 hit ko's and lures, archeops can choose to run earth power, heat wave, u-turn to deal with steelix, kanga can choose to run earthquake or even low kick and can change item to life orb so that it does a good 45-55%, liepard can choose to run nasty plot pard which can do a decent chunk plus can u-turn out for momentum, klingklang can even choose to run magnet rise (idk it's prolly bad) but instead of choosing to ban this mon, i think people can choose to run sets that deal with it effectively.

I think if you are forced to run sub-par sets such as those, then steelix is very unhealthy for us. Sure some of those sets work, but they're the only thing that works when steelix is such a prevalent threat that you can't even use those mons effectively in this meta without running gimmick sets. This also doesn't hide the fact that even though some mons can run things that kind of deal with steelix, steelix still makes like 25% or so of NU unviable. think pawniard (which was meh anyway but w/e), scyther, kangaskhan, sneasel or almost all weak physical attackers. I mean yeah, run your gimmicky low kick life orb kangaskhan and do like, what 45%? That's not helping for shit when it just 2hko's you anyway with no opportunity cost at all. Hopefully you get my point because it's probably already been said before.

One of the reasons NU sucks right now is because the only pokemon capable of checking the top pokemon right now are all shit and/or gimmicky and we are forced to run awful sets that actually only work half of the time. Why you want to promote this, I don't know... But I hope it gets banned anyway for this reason mostly.

 

[Kurona]

Mawile runs fire blast which 2 hit ko's and lures, archeops can choose to run earth power, heat wave, u-turn to deal with steelix, kanga can choose to run earthquake or even low kick and can change item to life orb so that it does a good 45-55%, liepard can choose to run nasty plot pard which can do a decent chunk plus can u-turn out for momentum, klingklang can even choose to run magnet rise (idk it's prolly bad) but instead of choosing to ban this mon, i think people can choose to run sets that deal with it effectively.

The problem with your statement is that you're using the wrong word. It's not that they 'can' choose to use these sub-par options, it's that they have to use these sub-par options just to stay relevant. It comes back to the scarf greninja beats mega salamence argument; you really can't use sub-par movesets that these Pokémon would not be running were it not for a certain threat as an argument to keep this certain threat in the metagame.

 

[Cherub Agent]

None of the sets Teddeh listed are unviable gimmicks outside of dealing with Mega Steelix ._.

Mawile running Fire Blast also helps with Ferroseed and Vileplume, Archeops running Earth Power helps get it past Rhydon, and U-Turn is even better as it just gets you a free switchin to Magmortar or w/e. Mega Steelix's lack of recovery becomes noticeable when the small things like U-turn and Spikes add up on it. Nasty Plot Dark Pulse Liepard might not fulfill the same role as the pivot set (which can also just U-Turn on the blindingly obvious switchin, but which is admittedly hardwalled), but it's by no means a bad Pokemon, and if it suits your team, you have a lovely lure for Mega Steelix as well, since it'll always come in on a Liepard, paving the way for something like a Scyther/Kangaskhan. Magnet Rise Klingklang also lets you set up on Rhydon, and other Pokemon that rely on EQ to deal with a Steel-type on their moveset. Further Pokemon like specs Swellow can lure it in and smack it with a Heat Wave, leaving it unable to check it and other Pokemon later on in the game. Band Sneasel deals a very solid amount with Low Kick, especially if Steelix switches in unevolved. I've noticed while playing that all these seemingly hard walled Pokemon aren't nearly as troubled by Mega Steelix in practise as they seem to be on paper, due to the ease with which Steelix is lured.

Steelix is perfectly beatable, and you don't have to run stupid gimmicks for it. Banning something should be a completely last resort move if it truly makes a metagame nigh unplayable, and I hear people from the pro-ban side saying that it isn't even broken! I feel players nowadays are too "pampered" and if there's something that slightly inconveniences their way of teambuilding, they get lazy and say "meh can't be bothered to prepare for this, ban". idk if my way of thinking is too influenced by the past, because im pretty sure im in the minority, but this pokemon honestly doesnt warp the metagame around itself the way some of you make it out to.

 

[Orphic]

Whilst I agree with everything you've said teddeh, we simply can't ignore the fact that mega steelix limits teambuilding so much in the current meta to the point where you're forced to run these sets and pokemon you wouldn't normally run simply because you know you're more than likely going to face one in most of your battles. Overcentralizing is always a controversial issue, and it's hard to pinpoint what we can define as overcentralizing, but I feel like with Mega Steelix, there's no doubt that it overcentralises the meta right now and therefore it should be banned.

 

[Water Drone]

Whilst I agree with everything you've said teddeh, we simply can't ignore the fact that mega steelix limits teambuilding so much in the current meta to the point where you're forced to run these sets and pokemon you wouldn't normally run simply because you know you're more than likely going to face one in most of your battles. Overcentralizing is always a controversial issue, and it's hard to pinpoint what we can define as overcentralizing, but I feel like with Mega Steelix, there's no doubt that it overcentralises the meta right now and therefore it should be banned.

It doesn't really do this at all? Sure pokemon might run coverage moves to beat Steelix, but as Cherub Agent said, they're used for other pokemon too. I don't think that this is very accurate, because those are in fact pokemon I would normally run. While obviously you have to prepare for Mega Steelix, you don't have to run completely obscure sets. It has no reliable recovery, tons of weaknesses, it's extremely slow, and its really not hard to wear down with hazards, and is very, very predictable. Personally, I think Mega Steelix is very beatable, and should not be banned.

 

[watashi]

Cherub Agent Teddeh
the only steelix "lure" you guys listed that 2hkos steelix is mawile while steelix murders them in return. afterwards it can find more changes to come in and threaten things. people advocating for bans need to look at steelix's offensive upside as well. it's not an easy pokemon to wall and with all the chances it gets to fire off an attack it's hard to deal with, especially for offense.

just because it doesn't counter everything doesn't mean it's not broken

also if you're u-turning then steelix has already done its job by forcing you to spam a non-stab u-turn

also magnet rise klinklang doesn't come close to beating steelix

Banning something should be a completely last resort move if it truly makes a metagame nigh unplayable

also this is not true, if it was the case people would notice immediately and quickban and there would be no need for suspect tests. we are having this argument because it's not clear whether steelix makes the metagame unplayable or not

You know it's either clicking heavy slam, eq or stealth rock whenever it comes in which makes it very predictable and easy to check

also not true, it has another move slot which can be used to lure its counters with moves such as stone edge or thunder fang. and there aren't that many pokemon in the tier that resist both heavy slam and earthquake, if you know it's going to use one of them that's not very helpful sometimes

 

[Cherub Agent]

aye fair enough regarding the banning philosophy. i also shouldn't really have acknowledged MR klinklang, as i've only used it to deal with rhydon, i forgot that it can't deal nearly enough damage to steelix in return before it's overwhelmed by heavy slam or roared out.

i'll rephrase: i certainly get where the pro-ban side is coming from. my opinion on steelix is that it's the best pokemon in the tier, and in a certain way is comparable to dpp cb scizor in that their are very few downsides to being put on a team and you can nearly always expect to get good use out of it in any game. but i don't think that its pros (of which there are many, of course) outweigh its cons: it's sluggish speed, its vulnerability to common types that have powerful moves, and the fact that it's lured easily enough by most things that it switches in on. the fact that a lot of these have either u-turn to force it out again by bringing in a counter, or the ability to hit it with a strong low kick or a sheer force boosted fire blast (tauros/mawile) makes it not broken in my eyes. but i certainly can accept that it may be considered too much for some people.

steelix has to be prepared for, probably more than any other pokemon in the tier, but i feel that nu has the pokemon that are good enough at this already that i don't feel as though it overcentralizes the metagame. it's not causing god-awful pu pokemon to rise up in usage just to deal with it, there are enough good pokemon out there. i know im just repeating myself here, but to be honest, im really liking the innovation mega steelix helps spread. physically defensive ludicolo, wisp hex rotom, weezing, in my opinion stuff like these bring more freshness to the metagame rther than making it stale. and all these sets aren't exclusively for dealing with steelix either. and honestly? i like having a pokemon that's tough to kill. freshens stuff up from the way most things can be 2HKOd.

 

[testsubordinate]

I always felt like broken defensive mons (as long as they don't have reliable recovery) help to balance a format rather than ruin it. Steelix IS hard to prepare for, but the combination of balancing the tier and the fact that the drops from RU make it less threatening seem to make it just barely not banworthy.

 

[Ares]

I always felt like broken defensive mons (as long as they don't have reliable recovery) help to balance a format rather than ruin it. Steelix IS hard to prepare for, but the combination of balancing the tier and the fact that the drops from RU make it less threatening seem to make it just barely not banworthy.

It isn't just a defensive Pokemon, it is also an offensive Pokemon boasting an impressive 125 Atk stat.

There is literally no reason to not use Mega Lix cause it can be put on pretty much any playstyle and be effective, Offense / Balance / Stall all can benefit from its ability to wall half the tier while still being a fantastic offensive presence.

Unfortunately due to time constraints I wasn't able to put in the time for reqs, but I was gonna vote ban / ban. Am hoping that most people vote that way cause Mega Lix + Helio + Typh is an incredibly easy core to use and abuse.

 

[testsubordinate]

It isn't just a defensive Pokemon, it is also an offensive Pokemon boasting an impressive 125 Atk stat.

There is literally no reason to not use Mega Lix cause it can be put on pretty much any playstyle and be effective, Offense / Balance / Stall all can benefit from its ability to wall half the tier while still being a fantastic offensive presence.

Unfortunately due to time constraints I wasn't able to put in the time for reqs, but I was gonna vote ban / ban. Am hoping that most people vote that way cause Mega Lix + Helio + Typh is an incredibly easy core to use and abuse.

By defensive I meant that the most common way to use it seems to be just investing in its defenses / HP and none in Atk, but I see what you're saying in that it has some incredible retaliation for something that's usually almost completely uninvested. Also I think you have a good point that there's just not many good reasons NOT to use Mega Steelix; there's not much to be lost and a lot to be gained from putting it on your team. Heliolisk is another monster entirely...

 

[Aladyyn]

The thing about this NU metagame is that it's straight up awful and stale. Heliolisk and MegaLix are both incredibly oppressive and warp the metagame completely around themselves. From what I've seen people realize this for Helio, but they think Lix is okay now. The problem with that is that we've been playing in a MegaLix metagame for so long we fail to see its negative impact on the metagame. It pushes out most of the other Stealth Rock users resulting in Hariyama being like the only relevant fire check because the opportunity cost of using Rhydon or Seismitoad is just way too high compared to Steelix. Sure the drops made it more manageable, but its impact on the meta carried over. It does way too many things way too well and as a result makes the meta stale and boring and awful. Even though I don't think it deserves to be banned on straight "brokenness", it would be incredibly beneficial to the tier if it left. (I've become a fan of aggressive banning philosophies).

Heliolisk is just straight up retarded. Free momentum all day every day, your opponent can never afford to click a water move, being worn down argument doesn't really apply because its switchins get wore down faster and by the time Helio dies from residual damage the battle should be pretty much over. And no, using cores of 3 mons to check it is not a sign of a healthy meta. This thing is literally as bad for NU as Jynx was in BW2.

I didn't get reqs because I just couldn't bring myself to play this meta anymore. It's that bad imo.

 

[Disjunction]

I feel that before drops in february i was all for kicking it out of NU since there were very few counters and less checks and they were all obvious, however the drops provoked a new range of threats and each drop beats mega-lix 1v1 which made it fairly uncommon during my ladder (at the start at least) or at least made it predictable. Not to mention that people whenever giving reasons to ban this pokemon ignore its very obvious flaws that I'd like to put out there: It has a crappy base speed meaning that you can outspeed it with almost everything on your team. You know it's either clicking heavy slam, eq or stealth rock whenever it comes in which makes it very predictable and easy to check. It has a lot of weaknesses too; namely fire, water and fighting which are 3 of the most common offensive types in NU and aren't hard to put on a team. Not to mention the biggest flaw of steelix right now is that it is bait for u-turn with pokemon such as mesprit, scyther and other u-turners which allow you to fire off free surf's from helio or eruptions from typhlosion allowing it to kill momentum for steelix's team and invites teams to use their offensive fire, fighting and water types (mainly) against your team to cause pressure.

My main grievance is with this paragraph here. The only two drops that could be considered beating it 1v1 are viriz and quag. However, both potentially leave the exchange heavily crippled in some way. I, personally, have run Toxic to great effect for my 4th move slot on Mlix to cripple Quag and other bulky waters that you are almost obligated to switch into. And the only situation where Virizion wins vs Mlix is the one where it sets up an SD in your face.
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 274-324 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(of course, assuming you CC'd first considering Leaf Blade + CC isn't a kill from full
EDIT: oh and of course assuming Viriz is LO because +2 CC doesn't even kill Mlix)

Any mon that switches into something with U-turn is "U-turn fodder" I don't see how this is a flaw of Mlix

I don't see the problem with its crappy base speed considering the biggest issue with this mon isn't its speed. People are complaining about its incredible bulk, typing, and attacking prowess. Outside of Sawk, powerful fire types like Typh/Pyroar, and Samu/offensive Seismitoad/SF Gatr, I don't know of any relevant mons that can OHKO Mega Steelix. Similar in that vein, any mons that can do over 50 (outside of the handful of bulky waters that we've determined a long time ago are mlix answers) are largely threatened by its incredible offensive pressure. Yama gets destroyed by EQ, Rhydon has to be Adamant max speed to win with EQ or it gets destroyed by Slam, Archeops does not win if it runs EP/HW unless it runs max SpA which is a very bad set (they aren't even guaranteed 2hko's there), Mawile/Lisk clearly get destroyed by EQ (they do not beat it "1v1" ?.?) and from there I was struggling to even find mons that could even do more than 50 to it.

And even if I were to not even take all of this into consideration, I would want Mlix gone for the sole reason that it contributes to the biggest flaw in the NU meta right now; the low amount of variety we are allowed in our team building. We need to have for our teams Gatr answer, Viriz answer, Lisk answer, Mlix answer, Fire spam switch in, CM Psychic answer, Fighting types switch in, hazard control (subjective to the team, I suppose), Normal type switch in, Stealth Rock setter, and of course you have to be mindful of the presence of malamar or you get 6-0'd by that. I realize that a lot of these can be merged together (Gourgeist can handle Mala, Lisk, Viriz, etc while stuff like Mega Camel can be your Rocker and Fire Spam answer) but the problem at hand is the low variance between our answers to these mons. We are restricted to a handful of Water types (among others like perhaps Gourgeist) for Mlix, an even smaller handful of Fire spam switch ins, a tiny pool of almost nothing that can handle SF Gatr now... Teams are forced to look almost identical if they are to function correctly. Our meta is so heavily centralized around a select core of maybe, like, 6 Pokemon that we're too afraid of getting rid of. Mlix and Lisk is a great start and I'm looking forward to seeing a meta where I have a much larger supply of mons to choose from to build around.

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

aye fair enough regarding the banning philosophy. i also shouldn't really have acknowledged MR klinklang, as i've only used it to deal with rhydon, i forgot that it can't deal nearly enough damage to steelix in return before it's overwhelmed by heavy slam or roared out.

i'll rephrase: i certainly get where the pro-ban side is coming from. my opinion on steelix is that it's the best pokemon in the tier, and in a certain way is comparable to dpp cb scizor in that their are very few downsides to being put on a team and you can nearly always expect to get good use out of it in any game. but i don't think that its pros (of which there are many, of course) outweigh its cons: it's sluggish speed, its vulnerability to common types that have powerful moves, and the fact that it's lured easily enough by most things that it switches in on. the fact that a lot of these have either u-turn to force it out again by bringing in a counter, or the ability to hit it with a strong low kick or a sheer force boosted fire blast (tauros/mawile) makes it not broken in my eyes. but i certainly can accept that it may be considered too much for some people.

steelix has to be prepared for, probably more than any other pokemon in the tier, but i feel that nu has the pokemon that are good enough at this already that i don't feel as though it overcentralizes the metagame. it's not causing god-awful pu pokemon to rise up in usage just to deal with it, there are enough good pokemon out there. i know im just repeating myself here, but to be honest, im really liking the innovation mega steelix helps spread. physically defensive ludicolo, wisp hex rotom, weezing, in my opinion stuff like these bring more freshness to the metagame rther than making it stale. and all these sets aren't exclusively for dealing with steelix either. and honestly? i like having a pokemon that's tough to kill. freshens stuff up from the way most things can be 2HKOd.

I don't think anybody can make the argument that mega steelix is unbeatable. Nor does steelix cause unviable mons to spring up in order to beat it. What it does instead is warp the metagame such that it changes the sets of nearly everything in NU in an unhealthy. the sheer number of lures that exist for megalix is a testament to this. I've never heard of anybody consider physically defensive ludicolo until megalix sprung up. Wisphex rotom? surely there are more generally useful things I'd rather be using?

I think this is also demonstrated through the mega audino lure set and the staleness of xatu in the metagame. The offensive mega audino lure set is not in any way a bad set, but this is definitely not its best set. It does not provide any team support outside of luring like 3 mons, and it does not have anywhere near the sweeping potential of crodino since it has no recovery or ways to get itself around status. However, if I'm not running the offensive lure set, I'm suddenly, at best, handing free turns to megalix. Additionally, thanks to megalix not only is xatu everywhere but it's running basically one set. On the suspect ladder at least 95% I've seen have been the physically defensive rocky helmet variant. CM xatu and many other sets that are/have been considered effective don't get usage simply because one poke exists.

This effect on various sets also spreads over onto which moves many mons use. This effect, to me, is what makes the whole "u-turn fodder" argument further demonstrate its overcentralizing effect. The argument "well the megalix switchin is so obvious that I can just u-turn into my typhlosion" is true to an extent that you will likely keep up momentum, but what if you don't u-turn? You kill any sort of momentum you had. Of course the prediction argument goes both ways, but what if your opponent reads this logic and keeps hariyama in against your mesprit? My point with this is that the "u-turn fodder" poke is not the risk-free play it seems people make it out to be. You do not get to u-turn against megalix, megalix forces you to u-turn.

This is just the overcentralizing factor, not the fact that mega steelix can wall and at worst 2HKO half of the tier as well.

tl;dr- mega lix is banworthy due to how overcentralizing it is, in addition to its other qualities. The metagame has evolved into "how well can you beat mega-lix?"

 

[Dentricos]

I voted Ban Steelixite and Don't Ban Heliolisk

Reasoning:

As someone who used this since it was introduced I would have been the first to say it has to go (I guess I wasn't :{). This thing basically makes fifty percent of the metagame useless and also functions as a nuke with stealth rock. Compared to something with a similar description like hariyama, Mega-Lix is somewhat more difficult to wall, has fairly decent utility in stealth rock/roar, gets even more impossible to wall under sand, and it just walls far more things than anything else in the tier. Not only that when it walls them it practically makes them useless to have even brought to the match.

Steelix can fit as a physical wall in most teams and does not require virtually any support. It becomes overly necessary to put mega lix in with your cores to make them function as highly as you want them to. It can fit in any play style against any play style except maybe against rain/sun.



At first I was with the crowds saying ban heliolisk (I also wanted viriz banned but I got over that). I started laddering with some teams where I didn't really prepare for heliolisk just to see what would happen. Honestly heliolisk may be hard to counter but in general it doesn't force nearly as many switches as people originally made it seem. I noticed in general it can get lethal results if the opponent predicts well enough but in general it was quite manageable.

Honestly I was on the fence about this mon... it worked amazingly in the meta and can volt switch out so many times. It has coverage making it nearly uncounterable and can just voltswitch out and get a better match-up. Logically I kind I am leaning towards ban for it but in practice I feel like it really isn't broken :/