Infernape has thunderpunch and it outspeeds it so if rocks are up you're zard y is dead. Also air slash zard y sucks ass and should Never be used on it. Also what exactly is keeping noivern ranked? Ever since ninja left it lost it's entire niche as a dragon that could outspeed it and OHKO it but now that it's no longer here it lost it's entire niche. Plus it's outclassed in everything it can do by torn-t and the lati@s who have far more power and more utility.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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Infernape can also run a decent lead set with Stealth Rock, and Endeavor + Focus Sash. Then it still has two moveslots to expend, you can 2HKO mega Diancie with close combat, overheat for ferrothorn, etc.
Having a core that contains Scizor and another 'mon that can potentially mega evolve, but is viable without Mega Evolving, like Gyarados or Slowbro can lead to a decent bluff that forces your opponent to think really hard about their next move, you can also just U-turn out without revealing much of your set a lot of the time.
Scizor should really move up. It's one of the best offensive checks to fairies such as mega diancie and mega altaria, which offensive teams tend to have trouble with. CB Bullet punch really hurts and it makes scizor a great revenge killer, while u-turn is a nice move to grab momentum. Scizor also has pursuit, and thanks to its typing it can easily switch in on the lati twins if they don't have HP fire and pursuit trap them. Saying scizor is a poor man's mega scizor isn't exactly true when mega scizor takes up your mega slot, it's bullet punch doesn't hit as hard, and doesn't really run u-turn that much. Sure, it's one of the best mgross counters out there, but normal scizor can also switch in a few times and put a dent in it with u-turn + bullet punch.
Checking fairies is pretty big considering there are so many in the metagame right now, and how dangerous they are. A lot of mons that are dangerous for hyper offense such as mega alakazam, RP mega dancie, gengar, etc are all revenge killed by CB scizor's bullet punch, which makes it a great choice for teams that need a check to these.
Checking fairies is pretty big considering there are so many in the metagame right now, and how dangerous they are. A lot of mons that are dangerous for hyper offense such as mega alakazam, RP mega dancie, gengar, etc are all revenge killed by CB scizor's bullet punch, which makes it a great choice for teams that need a check to these.
I'd like to propose Zygarde moving up to at least C, if not C+. I've found the SubGlare set to be the most effective, and it can set up subs pretty easily and Glare stuff. If you're lucky, you can Glare a Lando switch-in or something. I'm not denying that it's pretty bad in OU, but I don't think it deserves to be ranked lower than stuff like Mega Latios and Mega Camerupt.
Edit: not to mention Shuckle. Why the heck is Shuckle considered better than Zygarde?
Edit: not to mention Shuckle. Why the heck is Shuckle considered better than Zygarde?
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I never found that Wish supporters paired well with Wobbuffet, especially Chansey or Blissey. Wobbuffet fits on more aggressive playstyles than the blobs, and offensive Pokemon tend to benefit more from its capabilities. Healing Wish from Latias, Mega Lopunny, or Jirachi is nice, and while I was originally convinced that such support was close to mandatory, I have found that Wobbuffet can still perform consistently without Healing Wish.
To be honest I think those three Dratios mentioned in comparison to Zygarde should be knocked down. I'm not even going to try and understand why Shuckle still sits where it does, and while Megas Latios and Camerupt are OK on paper, they shares much of the same flaws with Mega Glalie. They have their uses, but they either require far too much team support for that rank (Camerupt) or realistically is never seeing usage because there is simply very little reason to use it over it's base form (Latios). I don't think Mega Latios shouldn't drop lower than C-, but I think Mega Camerupt could fit with the D rank lot. It has two particularly notable crippling flaws, the two of which together are a very bad combination: x4 Water weakness, and utterly poor Speed which it has no way of fixing. It only shines in Trick Room, which is a very select type of team. It really drags down any other type of team. I guess the only thing keeping it where it is it's firepower, but we've got lots of that already.
Those three are not as good as mon like Entei, Mega Blastoise or Infernape. If Shuckle and co are still considered C-grade material, I personally think that at least Mega Blastoise and Infernape move up because they are indisputably better than most of the rank as it currently looks by quite a stretch, and to have them on a par Shuckle is not representative of just how good they are in my opinion.
Those three are not as good as mon like Entei, Mega Blastoise or Infernape. If Shuckle and co are still considered C-grade material, I personally think that at least Mega Blastoise and Infernape move up because they are indisputably better than most of the rank as it currently looks by quite a stretch, and to have them on a par Shuckle is not representative of just how good they are in my opinion.
Chansey may be significantly bulkier than Blissey, and that does come in to play quite often against many common threats. However, what is being completely disregarded here is the prevalence of Knock Off in the meta. After taking a single knock off, chansey immediately becomes completely redundant, not even counting as a very reliable special wall anymore. I doubt i need to provide calcs to establish this, as we all already know this. And yes, chansey can just switch out against any threat with knock off, but that just means that any pokemon with knock off is a pokemon that chansey can not wall, which is not always true with blissey, for instance against knock off thundurus, or knock off skarmory. Chansey is forced to switch against any pokemon that may carry knock off thus making it very easy to check despite its bulk. Blissey does not share this weakness, and has many other things over chansey that have already been mentioned, whereas chansey only has extra bulk over blissey, which may come into play fairly often but doesn't quite make up for everything else blissey has over chansey. Overall, I think chansey should move down to B rank, as its weaknesses to sand teams and knock off really hurt it, while Blissey moves up to B rank, where it can be thought of not as a worse or better version of chansey, but rather as a viable alternative.
I can agree with a drop to B rank for Chansey since like you said, the prevalence off knock of really hurts Chansey's viability, however I do not agree with a rise to B rank for Blissey because not being neutered as much as chansey when knock off is used against it really is not a big enough reason for me to use Blissey over Chansey
Mega Aerodactyl A- to B+
I think mega aerodactyl should be dropped to B+. The reason it was so high in the first place back in XY was because of its good speed, ability to revenge kill faster pokemon, and one of the best offensive checks to flying types in the tier. There are a few reasons why I think it should drop:
First of all, the metagame has gotten bulkier. Hippowdon has been much more common, garchomp is everywhere, mega metagross is one of the best megas in OU right now, scizor and mega scizor have gotten a lot more common due to the rise in usage of fairies. All of these metagame trends are not favorable for mega aerodactyl. Hippowdon and garchomp are both great checks to it depending on its coverage, mega metagross easily checks it, and both formes of scizor beat any set lacking fire fang.
Secondly, bird spam, mostly mega pinsir, has declined in usage by a lot. Back in XY, pinsir was one of the best if not the best megas in the tier, one of the best A+ mons and really close to S rank. However, it's been getting very uncommon and offensive and balanced teams really don't have to worry about it all that much. With mega pinsir on the decline, and mega aerodactyl being one of the best answers to it, I feel mega aerodactyl should drop too. Checking talonflame is still pretty cool, but it still faces some competition from mega diancie which can also check it, as well as offer some more stuff to the team such as a powerful mixed attacker, sweeper with RP, or stallbreaker with CM.
Finally, mega aerodactyl just doesn't really seem to fit in with other A- rank mons. I really can't see aerodactyl being in the same rank as pokemon such as mega gallade, kyurem-black, mamoswine, raikou, serperior, skarmory, and volcarona. When you compare mega aerodactyl to other B+ rank mons such as togekiss, diggersby, terrakion, they're kind of on par with each other in terms of usefulness in the meta.
Chansey is the blob of the century. If we take a blast to the past of BW and the Eviolite the entire metagame was focused on Chansey for a long time. Her defensive stats surpassed Blissey's, and the debate of Chansey vs. Blissey went on for a while. But we're in ORAS now. Chansey in ORAS is only useful on defensive based teams. Which is not good for Chansey. ORAS is an extremely offensive metagame. We have Megagross's and Keldeos roaming the game. Stall Teams are no longer common place, and even then most teams have some sort of stallbreaker that takes stall cores and Seismic Tosses them away. However, if we do build a stall team (I have a stall team which uses Chansey) Chansey is no longer a useless derp. She has crippling status moves, a sure-damage move, and insane cleric moves. With Chansey, it's a matter of if the opponent has a wrecker or not. And since most teams do, Chansey will need the support and then kill things.
Chansey: B+ Rank
I'm completely against Chansey dropping. It's a blanket check to practically every special mon, and the extra bulk over Blissey is extremely relevant. Chansey may lose to knock off, but Blissey also has no place staying in on physical attackers, who are the main source of knock off. Blissey should rise, but only to B-, as the bulk Chansey has over it is larger in practice than on paper.
There has been some misconceptions about the whole Chansey v Blissey argument that I think people are either overlooking or missed the point when we nommed Chansey to go down.
Blissey was raised on the notion that the increase of Landorus among other aspects such as the prevalence of hazards makes it more beneficial in a meta that is looking for not exactly just answers but ways to deter strong special attackers without the complete loss of momentum that present day stall absolutely hates. As such Blissey can be more appealing to select teams due to its access to Leftovers and ability to run various coverage moves. Chansey is being nommed down on the fact that because of this lack of recovery it's much more easier to take advantage of in a meta that puts a bit more emphasis on hazards and a decreased viability in stall with Chansey being a big player in the playstyle within itself. I have no idea where people just assumed that there has been some mass increase in Knock Off that is somehow correlated to what we're trying to get across in regards of viewing a drop for Chansey. The teams that Chansey are on have dedicated Knock Off Absorbers and this isn't exactly a relevant aspect as to why we're considering the move down in rank. Blissey isn't on par with Chansey plain and simple the aspect of Eviolite pushes Chansey to a much higher viability because it allows itself to have a chance against various physical attacks where as Blisseys role is very team specific and such requires a bit more support outside of the specific role it's mandated to, usually the defensive check to stuff like Gengar as one example. Jukains post is on page 4 is good if you want more detail. Chansey to B and Blissey should stay where it's at.
Alfalfa asked me earlier to bring up my thoughts on a potential move up to Wobbuffet. I'm indifferent on it moving up but I think it's important to note the addition of Custap Destiny Bond set which more or less unlike before its availability can almost guarantee the removal of a single Pokemon instead of sort of in XY where it was before forced into a lot of scenarios this very singular role that in what I found somewhat of a liability. The addition of Custap gives it a little bit of extra dimension in regards to how it traps and simply as a support Pokemon who is implemented on teams to remove troublesome aspects for various set up sweepers. More or less my point being is that Wobbuffet in the ORAS meta as opposed to XY due to the addition of Custap can in most games guarantee you one kill and it's something to consider as a support pokemon where Gothitelle sits at B and Azelf as well. Like I said I don't have an exact idea of its placement but as mentioned before it's not unreasonable to consider Wobbuffet has gotten better if only slightly.
Birdspam may have declined but offense hasn't, and M-Aerodactyl's role against offense is the selling point of using it in the first place. It surpasses the speed tier of Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, M-Sceptile, M-Beedrill, Scarf Heatran, Scarf Diggersby, +1 Gyarados / M-Gyarados an offensive check to Talonflame and M-Pinsir who may fall under aspects of birdspam but they're not necessarily dedicated to roles of that archetype when they're effective just on plain old offense and balance. This is a lot of quality stuff we're talking about that M-Aerodactyl has the luxury of outpacing and or being able to threaten back.
Your last point funnily enough brings up a point that ranking team has been discussing for awhile in that M-Gallade should drop to B+ because quite frankly it isn't a very great Pokemon and to the point that people are convinced that I've spoken with that Mega Medicham and M-Gallade are becoming more on par in viability with certain exceptions that benefit one or the other. I'd argue that M-Aerodactyl and almost everything in A- with the exception of maybe Mamoswine but that's more personally my perspective, is much more effective than M-Gallade just speaking from a general standpoint of consistency.
Blissey was raised on the notion that the increase of Landorus among other aspects such as the prevalence of hazards makes it more beneficial in a meta that is looking for not exactly just answers but ways to deter strong special attackers without the complete loss of momentum that present day stall absolutely hates. As such Blissey can be more appealing to select teams due to its access to Leftovers and ability to run various coverage moves. Chansey is being nommed down on the fact that because of this lack of recovery it's much more easier to take advantage of in a meta that puts a bit more emphasis on hazards and a decreased viability in stall with Chansey being a big player in the playstyle within itself. I have no idea where people just assumed that there has been some mass increase in Knock Off that is somehow correlated to what we're trying to get across in regards of viewing a drop for Chansey. The teams that Chansey are on have dedicated Knock Off Absorbers and this isn't exactly a relevant aspect as to why we're considering the move down in rank. Blissey isn't on par with Chansey plain and simple the aspect of Eviolite pushes Chansey to a much higher viability because it allows itself to have a chance against various physical attacks where as Blisseys role is very team specific and such requires a bit more support outside of the specific role it's mandated to, usually the defensive check to stuff like Gengar as one example. Jukains post is on page 4 is good if you want more detail. Chansey to B and Blissey should stay where it's at.
Alfalfa asked me earlier to bring up my thoughts on a potential move up to Wobbuffet. I'm indifferent on it moving up but I think it's important to note the addition of Custap Destiny Bond set which more or less unlike before its availability can almost guarantee the removal of a single Pokemon instead of sort of in XY where it was before forced into a lot of scenarios this very singular role that in what I found somewhat of a liability. The addition of Custap gives it a little bit of extra dimension in regards to how it traps and simply as a support Pokemon who is implemented on teams to remove troublesome aspects for various set up sweepers. More or less my point being is that Wobbuffet in the ORAS meta as opposed to XY due to the addition of Custap can in most games guarantee you one kill and it's something to consider as a support pokemon where Gothitelle sits at B and Azelf as well. Like I said I don't have an exact idea of its placement but as mentioned before it's not unreasonable to consider Wobbuffet has gotten better if only slightly.
I don't exactly agree with this assessment because you're missing out a lot of the important aspects while focusing on somewhat irrelevant ones. Sitting at a speed tier of 150 is kind of huge for something that isn't even scarfed and it's one of the best checks to offense that even bulkier teams can find themselves cleaned up by when taking into account hazards and the way M-Aerodactyl can pick off weakened opponents quite easily. M-Aerodactyl isn't exactly a slouch in the offensive department when you consider the various coverage moves and Tough Claws being enhanced by most of those which makes some of these things you mentioned not exactly answers to them. Most of these things you mentioned are either 2HKO or comes extremely close and based the idea that if it lacks a coverage move it can't beat these. This is sort of a given already but the fact of the matter is that it has the power and has access to these moves to use them effectively in the first place.
Mega Aerodactyl A- to B+
I think mega aerodactyl should be dropped to B+. The reason it was so high in the first place back in XY was because of its good speed, ability to revenge kill faster pokemon, and one of the best offensive checks to flying types in the tier. There are a few reasons why I think it should drop:
First of all, the metagame has gotten bulkier. Hippowdon has been much more common, garchomp is everywhere, mega metagross is one of the best megas in OU right now, scizor and mega scizor have gotten a lot more common due to the rise in usage of fairies. All of these metagame trends are not favorable for mega aerodactyl. Hippowdon and garchomp are both great checks to it depending on its coverage, mega metagross easily checks it, and both formes of scizor beat any set lacking fire fang.
Secondly, bird spam, mostly mega pinsir, has declined in usage by a lot. Back in XY, pinsir was one of the best if not the best megas in the tier, one of the best A+ mons and really close to S rank. However, it's been getting very uncommon and offensive and balanced teams really don't have to worry about it all that much. With mega pinsir on the decline, and mega aerodactyl being one of the best answers to it, I feel mega aerodactyl should drop too. Checking talonflame is still pretty cool, but it still faces some competition from mega diancie which can also check it, as well as offer some more stuff to the team such as a powerful mixed attacker, sweeper with RP, or stallbreaker with CM.
Finally, mega aerodactyl just doesn't really seem to fit in with other A- rank mons. I really can't see aerodactyl being in the same rank as pokemon such as mega gallade, kyurem-black, mamoswine, raikou, serperior, skarmory, and volcarona. When you compare mega aerodactyl to other B+ rank mons such as togekiss, diggersby, terrakion, they're kind of on par with each other in terms of usefulness in the meta.
Birdspam may have declined but offense hasn't, and M-Aerodactyl's role against offense is the selling point of using it in the first place. It surpasses the speed tier of Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, M-Sceptile, M-Beedrill, Scarf Heatran, Scarf Diggersby, +1 Gyarados / M-Gyarados an offensive check to Talonflame and M-Pinsir who may fall under aspects of birdspam but they're not necessarily dedicated to roles of that archetype when they're effective just on plain old offense and balance. This is a lot of quality stuff we're talking about that M-Aerodactyl has the luxury of outpacing and or being able to threaten back.
Your last point funnily enough brings up a point that ranking team has been discussing for awhile in that M-Gallade should drop to B+ because quite frankly it isn't a very great Pokemon and to the point that people are convinced that I've spoken with that Mega Medicham and M-Gallade are becoming more on par in viability with certain exceptions that benefit one or the other. I'd argue that M-Aerodactyl and almost everything in A- with the exception of maybe Mamoswine but that's more personally my perspective, is much more effective than M-Gallade just speaking from a general standpoint of consistency.
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Shuckle is the most reliable Sticky Web user in the entire game. Galvantula can't really set Sticky Webs more than once and most experienced Sticky Web users know that the second time you set up webs are usually the best. While yes, it has essentially no other niche, it's not exactly the easiest to take advantage of either since it has enough bulk and Sturdy so it can afford to hold a Mental Herb, adding on Encore, Rock Tomb, and Infestation to keep it from becoming set-up fodder.
On the other hand, I agree with what you said about Zygarde. I too, have found the ParaShuffler set, or SubGlare to be the most effective one - but still rather mediocre. I've given my support from the previous thread and I'll still give mine here.
Zygarde's versatility is really not that high to the point that many of its sets are done better in a broader sense by other Pokemon with just a few exceptions that distinguish Zygarde such as Extremespeed, typing, and a bit higher bulk compared to some of its other dragon type counterparts and does so all in one package. Dragon Dance sets are done by many other dragon types with either other very effective roles than just Dragon Dancing such as M-Altaria, or reliable STAB which Zygardes being only Outrage for its Dragon STAB for Dragon Dance sets as such forcing it into situations where it hates to be locked in the face of potential opposing Steel and Fairy types and the lack of Dragon Claw can be unfortunate sometimes when it needs that extra move to continually sweep. Subcoil sets quite frankly I think are not good at all and don't reflect Zygardes capabilities one bit. What I do think Zygarde does well are Tank sets with Espeed, Earthquake, filler, Glare + Leftovers paired up with hazards on balance and bulky offense teams which allows it to clean up weakened opponents while passing around paralysis to deter certain elements of offense such as offensive Ground types. Shuckles role is more significant because it's a support asset where teams are designed to use the lower speed that Sticky Webs provide to succeed and as such as a utility Pokemon is much more viable than Zygarde who is really just a generic Pokemon that has enough real capabilities not to be unranked.
Ah... That clarifies a lot. But I still believe that Shuckle's ability to set Sticky Webs, being the best pokemon for the job, is better than Zygarde's roles of which most have competition.
EDIT: Ninja'd by AM
Disagree with Aero dropping for a couple of reasons. First, it's speed is an incredible asset, that allows it to terrorize offense. With the overall speed creep of ORAS this is vital, and Aero can deal with the lightning-fast Beedrill, Sceptile, and Lopunny. Frailer mons such as Gengar and Mega Gallade sitting at base 110 are also dealt with fairly easily. Second, it's utility. Rock/Flying STAB has great offensive coverage, and add in offensive options such as Aqua Tail, Fire Fang, and Earthquake as well as Roost and Stealth Rock and you'll find that Aero is customizable to your team's needs. It's typing is also pretty sweet, holding neat Flying and Fire resists along with a key Ground immunity. I've been experimenting with a 4 attacks Aero with Swords Dance Pass support and it hasn't disappointed. It's speed lets it effectively revenge and clean, and it's power isn't really an issue when you consider that most of the things Aero will be dealing with are either weak to its STAB or easily worn down. Aero puts in a ton of work in this meta and shouldn't drop. Stay in A-.
Also agree with Gallade dropping, it is really easy to deal with and should be closer to Medicham in ranking.
Also agree with Gallade dropping, it is really easy to deal with and should be closer to Medicham in ranking.
Houndoom's been a really undertalked topic. On one hand I want to encourage it being kept where it is because frankly it just does not hit hard enough and is stopped by way too many things; most of these things are metagame defining Pokemon that can easily take advantage and set up like Mega Altaria (this is huge because DD is just such an amazing set rn and just letting it get one costs the game), Keldeo (subcm rip), Mega Diancie (rp), Tyranitar, and Azumarill. This is all really hard to just ignore because the thing about Houndoom and its fair checks is that every team is more often than not going to have some sort of check and counter to it. This also means that it's extremely pressed to have an effective fourth moveslot; Taunt and Will-O-Wisp are and always have been the best options as it means it can a) stallbreak or b) cripple its switchins. But it then means that it has to rely on an average STAB combo to be able to handle Fairy-types which all can just switch in and set up on it which is gg. On another hand, it hits an incredible Speed tier (115 is just amazing in such an offensive and speedy metagame), and it actually is able to deal great damage after a Nasty Plot. It's a good enough threat to offense and one to balance as well given the prevalence of Ferrothorn and how slow they generally are, as well as stall if it is able to run Taunt. It's got a lot of great points, but not hitting as hard as its stats suggest and being setup fodder for many threatening pokemon in the metagame is simply unacceptable in such a meta. Do not rise.
Mega Aerodactyl is good in A-. It's really easy to disregard this mon in particular simply because many people think it does not hit hard enough and that it has shit bulk and a meh defensive typing. To be fair, there's a bunny sitting there in A+ who has almost the exact same Attack stat (which is irrelevant sometimes cuz tough claws) and is even more exploitable defensively. Mega Aerodactyl, objectively speaking, can be good against any playstyle given its set. Any set with Taunt and Roost is gg to Stall, while all-out offensive sets are anal to offense (i'd even argue it does almost as good a job at this as Mega Lopunny) and balance can be a bit bulky at times but in reality if you can get some hazards and chip damage even it can be taken down by Mega Aerodactyl simply because it has just such a movepool that lets it shit all over most mons of that playstyle; Fire Fang, Aqua Tail, Stone Edge, and Earthquake are just some moves that are extremely effective against the mons on that playstyle simply because they can't help but be exploited by these attacks. Base 150 Speed is just fucking ridiculous honestly and people give that so little credit it makes me want to tear up. Keep in A-.
Mega Pidgeot should probably go to B-. Tornadus-T for the most part gives it competition and apart from the logic of 'if torn rises so should pidgeot' (which i find pretty legit) it is a much more reliable tool against offense. Tornadus-t, no matter how bad of an argument it is, will always suck as a cleaner because it just is too reliant on a 70% chance (if you want some reference, the chance of a hurricane hitting twice in a row is 49%) and Mega Pidgeot is just such a better option when trying to finish games and get solid damage because it will always get damage off, regardless. I think just that is important enough when considering how unreliable Tornadus-T is as an attacker because it is relying constantly on 70% hurricane, 70% focus blast (superpower is always an option but it does not hit as hard and the defense drops makes it exploitable) or piss weak knock off or u-turn. Mega Pidgeot is just much more reliable of an attacker and raising it does it justice. Rise to B-.
Lastly, I want Mega Gyarados in A+. This thing is just such a fucking threat at the moment. A lot of people judge it off of its Water/Dark coverage and simply that just is not fair. Mega Gyarados usually appreciates Taunt or Sub but a set of Water / Dark / Ice or Ground coverage is completely legitimate and lets you a way to get past your conventional checks and counters such as Mega Altaria. Bluntly, I think that after one Dragon Dance, Mega Gyarados is pretty much almost always going to dent and usually finish the game. It hits fucking hard, it sets up on a ridiculous amount of things, it requires VERY little support, and it takes half a brain to use. It's such a splashable Pokemon at the moment because of the fact that it fits on all playstyles. Stall can use a bulky RestTalk set, and offense and balance appreciate Dragon Dance sets. It's a mon that really any team is threatened by on the right circumstances and it should be risen to be reflected as one of the best mons in the metagame. Rise to A+.
Mega Aerodactyl is good in A-. It's really easy to disregard this mon in particular simply because many people think it does not hit hard enough and that it has shit bulk and a meh defensive typing. To be fair, there's a bunny sitting there in A+ who has almost the exact same Attack stat (which is irrelevant sometimes cuz tough claws) and is even more exploitable defensively. Mega Aerodactyl, objectively speaking, can be good against any playstyle given its set. Any set with Taunt and Roost is gg to Stall, while all-out offensive sets are anal to offense (i'd even argue it does almost as good a job at this as Mega Lopunny) and balance can be a bit bulky at times but in reality if you can get some hazards and chip damage even it can be taken down by Mega Aerodactyl simply because it has just such a movepool that lets it shit all over most mons of that playstyle; Fire Fang, Aqua Tail, Stone Edge, and Earthquake are just some moves that are extremely effective against the mons on that playstyle simply because they can't help but be exploited by these attacks. Base 150 Speed is just fucking ridiculous honestly and people give that so little credit it makes me want to tear up. Keep in A-.
Mega Pidgeot should probably go to B-. Tornadus-T for the most part gives it competition and apart from the logic of 'if torn rises so should pidgeot' (which i find pretty legit) it is a much more reliable tool against offense. Tornadus-t, no matter how bad of an argument it is, will always suck as a cleaner because it just is too reliant on a 70% chance (if you want some reference, the chance of a hurricane hitting twice in a row is 49%) and Mega Pidgeot is just such a better option when trying to finish games and get solid damage because it will always get damage off, regardless. I think just that is important enough when considering how unreliable Tornadus-T is as an attacker because it is relying constantly on 70% hurricane, 70% focus blast (superpower is always an option but it does not hit as hard and the defense drops makes it exploitable) or piss weak knock off or u-turn. Mega Pidgeot is just much more reliable of an attacker and raising it does it justice. Rise to B-.
Lastly, I want Mega Gyarados in A+. This thing is just such a fucking threat at the moment. A lot of people judge it off of its Water/Dark coverage and simply that just is not fair. Mega Gyarados usually appreciates Taunt or Sub but a set of Water / Dark / Ice or Ground coverage is completely legitimate and lets you a way to get past your conventional checks and counters such as Mega Altaria. Bluntly, I think that after one Dragon Dance, Mega Gyarados is pretty much almost always going to dent and usually finish the game. It hits fucking hard, it sets up on a ridiculous amount of things, it requires VERY little support, and it takes half a brain to use. It's such a splashable Pokemon at the moment because of the fact that it fits on all playstyles. Stall can use a bulky RestTalk set, and offense and balance appreciate Dragon Dance sets. It's a mon that really any team is threatened by on the right circumstances and it should be risen to be reflected as one of the best mons in the metagame. Rise to A+.
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I just saw this now while skimming through the thread for reasonings so now I'll be able to respond. I'm just gonna let you know right off the bat I'm positive none of us, by us I mean the ranking team, use the ranking definitions at all to place a ranking. We don't need definitions to justify our reasoning because we use what we see and use in actual practice in correlation to other Pokemon associated with their ranking. As such every time we get these nominations based on a bunch of text that has no meaning in the scheme of things, the definitions by themselves basically, it's more than likely going to be ignored as any sort of relevant aspect. It doesn't take definitions to know that something is good or something is shit. So this sort of becomes a moot point and goes more towards to what you said about how they fare with each other in the ranks they are at or close to.
Ones nom doesn't mean that it will happen, this is talking about the idea that all raises happen. I can tell you right now I've gotten a good 20+ mentions of Charizard-Y mostly on forum moving up to A+ and I'll tell you 20+ times that at the very least on my end that it shouldn't be happening just by the context of the other rank placements associated with it and how it actually works in practice when you remove the fluff that people love to establish with their rises. Team is considering drops all the time whether we've shown this or not based on the meta trends alone. M-Gallade, M-Houndoom, M-Garchomp....there has actually been a LOT that we've considered dropping simply because half these things that people praise about are either not as effective as people make them out to be or almost irrelevant and or meaningless when their role can be done more easily or their "niche" is not even significant in the context of the meta-game that is reflective of a higher play. Just to give you an idea M-Garchomp was being considered to drop to C+ awhile back because it's really not relevant at all lol which I have to agree with. Usage doesn't equate to viability but this is just to give you guys an idea that the cons need to be really established before considering a nomination and it's not even the cons by the Pokemon themselves but also the fact is it really worth it to use over the good 80+ options we've got going for ourselves.
Rank inflation as Henry put it best during a conversation awhile back is not really an issue with the ranking themselves, it's the realization of the power creep that has been established in ORAS in that it's created a high group of Pokemon that are simply effective and they are simply on that level that they perfectly warrant the current rank placements you see in the A category. This might not make sense to you looking from the outside in but this is what has already been discussed and agreed upon that our current metagames increased viability of more threats as such needs to reflect that in the rankings. We've always been discussing these aspects like months before topics like these keep inevitably being brought up.
So one final note as said in my first paragraph I can assure you we're not using text alone to justify a rank placement.
The problem is that you haven't actually made a case for any of these nor has there been a huge notion of some sort of contradictory aspect that was being presented by your comment. A good example of what to do is srn's recent nom of Celebi dropping to A- and explaining as to why the drop is justified or flamer's past posts on Infernape rising in correlation to the mons associated with the ranking it's in and the ranking it's being nommed for. What not to do is just make a blanket statement that certain things are out of order without actually making some real cases for it. It's also perfectly reasonable to say that something can be considered one of the best in its rank. No one can argue that Keldeo is better than Landorus as a whole when the community has already pointed the finger of what they want suspected next so obviously there will be stuff in the same rank that may more or less be better than others that occupy the same rank. The differentiations between what occupies the rankings is noticed simply by using them in an effective manner. It's really not as absurd as it's being made out to be in your comment. I'm sorry for what practically ended up being an essay but stuff like this is really annoying to read at times when trying to make out a problem that in actuality doesn't exist to such an extreme when you sort of take a step back and try to put it in perspective.
Edit: Oh and the hyperlinks on each image for their rankings DO NOT WORK. I keep getting messages of this and I clearly put a hyperlink to the actual subforum with ALL THE ANALYSIS in them in the OP so when I have time to go and fix this it will be done. Use that please.
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I agree that Shuckle should be dropped. If I had my way, it'd be completely removed and blacklisted. In XY, Shuckle was a niche Sticky Web user for HO teams, as it's overall bulk and useful ability allowed it to perform its job without fail, especially when holding a Mental Herb.
With the introduction of Magic Bounce Mega-Diancie and Mega-Sableye, both Pokemon that are very common, Shuckle becomes a waste of space. Not to mention the rise of Serperior (here we go again) and Starmie, respectively benefiting from Sticky Web and removing it.
Pairing Bisharp to get a boost from Pokemon defogging Shuckle'a Sticky Web was also a thing in XY. Now with Aegislash removed from the tier, Starmie has a much easier time spinning away hazards. You might argue that Mega-Sableye could also spinblock Starmie, but why would you use something as terribly slow as MSableye on a Sticky Web team? That doesn't make any sense. Also the rise of Hippowdom and Mega-Scizor, and the prevalence of Mega-Lopunny and tank Garchomp, etc. Even with a +2, Bisharp still can't terrorize a team like it had in the past.
Shuckle should be dropped.
With the introduction of Magic Bounce Mega-Diancie and Mega-Sableye, both Pokemon that are very common, Shuckle becomes a waste of space. Not to mention the rise of Serperior (here we go again) and Starmie, respectively benefiting from Sticky Web and removing it.
Pairing Bisharp to get a boost from Pokemon defogging Shuckle'a Sticky Web was also a thing in XY. Now with Aegislash removed from the tier, Starmie has a much easier time spinning away hazards. You might argue that Mega-Sableye could also spinblock Starmie, but why would you use something as terribly slow as MSableye on a Sticky Web team? That doesn't make any sense. Also the rise of Hippowdom and Mega-Scizor, and the prevalence of Mega-Lopunny and tank Garchomp, etc. Even with a +2, Bisharp still can't terrorize a team like it had in the past.
Shuckle should be dropped.
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Exist a reason why there's 37 Pokemon in the Top ranks. First at all, see the list of Megas in those ranks.
As we know, every team can only use one Mega Evolution (or else one of them will be heavily nerfed). It's understandable that because of the high number of Megas in the upper ranks, a lot of non-Megas would be in the upper ranks. Personally, right now I find the majority of the Poekmon in those ranks worthy of being in those top ranks.
Clefable: Stay in A+ rank. Even though the progress of Clefable in recent years because of the change in typing is spectacular (from being unviable in Gen 5 (even though it WAS viable in Gen 4 (and more viable than things that there were OU then)) to be proposed of S rank. if that happens, I think we need to resume the history of Clefable in competitive environment.
M-Gyarados: Go to A+ rank. Mega Gyarados is a very potent sweeper that has sky high attack, defenses like Umbreon, a good STBA combination sicne OR/AS that grants perfect coverage, and also causes a few mindgames with its base form, who has Intimidate.
Manaphy: Abstain here. Against balance and stall, Manaphy is extremely good and could be even worthy of A+ ranks. The big problems are the few counters he has, and Pokemon that can hit hard and have more than 100 Base Speed, who are very common on hyper offense.
Chansey and Blissey. I think that Chansey should be B and Blissey should be B-.
Mega Houndoom: Personally, it should drop. Mega Houndoom has so low usage even after rising in B rank that barely justify is ranking. Even though usage ==/== viability, you can easily tell that if a B rank that's not stricted to niche teams doesn't go to at least around 100 in usage, it could be because it doesn't deserve that rank. And I think so, because Houndoom is outclassed by many Fire types in OU (Heatran, Charizard Y, Volcarona, Victini), needs the Mega Slot, has an almost useless ability (sun is only viable to use on Charizard Y itself, and Houndoom can't be paired with Charizard) and is rather frail.
Mega Pidgeot. Abstain
Mega Ampharos. I find that this Mega is one of the better Trick Room megas apart of Sableye and Slowbro. And unlie Camerupt, this thing is very usable on non-TR conditions. Outside TR teams, it has a niche on being one of the slowest Volt Turn passers of the tier. I think a C+ rank fits Mega Ampharos.
Infernape. It should rise to C+ because the lead set is effective and the unpredictability of the set that Infernape may run fits enough to be on C+.
Scizor: Scizor should rise to B+ and I even say to rise into A-. True, it may be outclassed as a Mega Scizor outside of Chocie Band, but don't forget that Scizor generally (although more offensive than defensive sets) is viable on those roles. Also, if Scizor has Technician, you can start temabuilding with a Mega Scizor and when you want aanother Mega you can change the Mega for LO (offensive) or Leftovers (rest of sets). Even though the nalysis list Light Metal as an ability, the only thing it does is reducing the power of Grass Knot to Low Kick from 100 to 80. Scizor already rdouble resists (1/4) Grass Knot and Low Kick is rare in the OU metagame, and is not used for Scizor.
Also:
Mega Alakazam: Why is this thing in A? Because I think is more at B+ than A rank.
S
Mega Altaria
Mega Metagross
A+
Mega Charizard X
Mega Diancie
Mega Lopunny
Mega Sableye
Mega Scizor
A
Mega Alakazam
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gardevoir
Mega Gyarados
Mega Latias
Mega Manectric
Mega Slowbro
Mega Venusaur
Mega Altaria
Mega Metagross
A+
Mega Charizard X
Mega Diancie
Mega Lopunny
Mega Sableye
Mega Scizor
A
Mega Alakazam
Mega Charizard Y
Mega Gardevoir
Mega Gyarados
Mega Latias
Mega Manectric
Mega Slowbro
Mega Venusaur
As we know, every team can only use one Mega Evolution (or else one of them will be heavily nerfed). It's understandable that because of the high number of Megas in the upper ranks, a lot of non-Megas would be in the upper ranks. Personally, right now I find the majority of the Poekmon in those ranks worthy of being in those top ranks.
Clefable: Stay in A+ rank. Even though the progress of Clefable in recent years because of the change in typing is spectacular (from being unviable in Gen 5 (even though it WAS viable in Gen 4 (and more viable than things that there were OU then)) to be proposed of S rank. if that happens, I think we need to resume the history of Clefable in competitive environment.
M-Gyarados: Go to A+ rank. Mega Gyarados is a very potent sweeper that has sky high attack, defenses like Umbreon, a good STBA combination sicne OR/AS that grants perfect coverage, and also causes a few mindgames with its base form, who has Intimidate.
Manaphy: Abstain here. Against balance and stall, Manaphy is extremely good and could be even worthy of A+ ranks. The big problems are the few counters he has, and Pokemon that can hit hard and have more than 100 Base Speed, who are very common on hyper offense.
Chansey and Blissey. I think that Chansey should be B and Blissey should be B-.
Mega Houndoom: Personally, it should drop. Mega Houndoom has so low usage even after rising in B rank that barely justify is ranking. Even though usage ==/== viability, you can easily tell that if a B rank that's not stricted to niche teams doesn't go to at least around 100 in usage, it could be because it doesn't deserve that rank. And I think so, because Houndoom is outclassed by many Fire types in OU (Heatran, Charizard Y, Volcarona, Victini), needs the Mega Slot, has an almost useless ability (sun is only viable to use on Charizard Y itself, and Houndoom can't be paired with Charizard) and is rather frail.
Mega Pidgeot. Abstain
Mega Ampharos. I find that this Mega is one of the better Trick Room megas apart of Sableye and Slowbro. And unlie Camerupt, this thing is very usable on non-TR conditions. Outside TR teams, it has a niche on being one of the slowest Volt Turn passers of the tier. I think a C+ rank fits Mega Ampharos.
Infernape. It should rise to C+ because the lead set is effective and the unpredictability of the set that Infernape may run fits enough to be on C+.
Scizor: Scizor should rise to B+ and I even say to rise into A-. True, it may be outclassed as a Mega Scizor outside of Chocie Band, but don't forget that Scizor generally (although more offensive than defensive sets) is viable on those roles. Also, if Scizor has Technician, you can start temabuilding with a Mega Scizor and when you want aanother Mega you can change the Mega for LO (offensive) or Leftovers (rest of sets). Even though the nalysis list Light Metal as an ability, the only thing it does is reducing the power of Grass Knot to Low Kick from 100 to 80. Scizor already rdouble resists (1/4) Grass Knot and Low Kick is rare in the OU metagame, and is not used for Scizor.
Also:
Mega Alakazam: Why is this thing in A? Because I think is more at B+ than A rank.
Mega Alakazam is A:
DarkNostalgia said:
I can understand that mega houndoom has plenty of viable checks, but if you can manage to fit in a handy dandy move called sludge bomb, the number of checks is quite literally cut in half. Diancie, Altaria, and non AV azumarill usually just stay in, overconfident, only to kiss the ground in one move. Keldeo and Ttar are very valid, common, and threatening checks, which is why mega houndoom shouldn't go too high (not higher than B really) But It has its options.
I wouldn't really say its "extremely pressed to have an effective fourth moveslot" because the bread and butter is in the first 3 anyway: nasty plot, fire blast, and dark pulse. I don't really know why one would even bother with will-o when houndoom is so frail and has an SR weakness, the best way to play it is bring it in once, set up, and do what you can from there. It's not exactly a hit-and-run mon so will-o is pretty ineffective.
Taunt really only has use in breaking through chansey as the rest of the stall team should be weakened enough so that +2 stabs clean anyway.
The way i see it in this meta, sludge bomb is the way to go to nail overconfident mega altaria, mega diancie, and azumarill. It's not pressed for a 4th moveslot at all.
And ofc 115 base speed is super good and fire/dark stabs are very consistent.
I'm honestly ok wherever it is on the viability ranking, as long as it doesn't fall, but i wanted to clear up some misconceptions mostly.
I don't think this Warrents s rank at all, because clefable isn't metagame defining on the level off actual s rank mons, not to mention that stall isn't very popular rn, and for a reason. The s ranks all eat stall up with moderate ease and clef can't handle allot of what they can throw. Lando has sludge bomb and m altaria can smash it at +1 predicting obv switch. Metagross forces you out and comes in to anything that isn't flamethrower. Also hetran is popular (as always) and walls f thrw moonblast clef
Keep clef at A+
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