Thugly Duckling
I play TCG now
Jajaja Pdon ban that's cute to think about.
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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
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That is true, that Palkia is better than Kyogre and Landorus-Therian. However, Palkia was moved to D rank due to the addition of Primal-Groudon and Soul Dew in ORAS. With Primal-Groudon in every team, Palkia can't spam it's most threatening STAB Hydro pump. The reason why Palkia was so great back in XY was because it was the only solid check to Kyogre and along with that its Lustrous Orb set was just great. But since now Soul dew is useable, the Latitwins can check Kyogre. Its impossible to make a solid team with Palkia now, since it has no niche in the current metagame now.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Why is clefable in B? I know unaware is a thing but is it really better than actual usable stuff like scizor and genesect? those also check xern but have actual stats.
Clefable is a great cleric, wish-passer, Xerneas check, and Calm Mind Arceus check on fat (read: stall and maybe a couple bulkier balance) teams. It can also check SD Arceus formes if physically defensive iirc. Definitely easier to fit on a team than Scizor or Genesect, as both are really hard to justify because their niches aren't too important and are otherwise outclassed by Klefki.
Plus stats aren't everything, just saying.
Plus stats aren't everything, just saying.
is Thunderpunch viable on primal groudon as a Kyoger check?
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 301-355 (88 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 252-298 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Jesus NO!
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 252-298 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Jesus NO!
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
I'm actually suprised I haven't seen that on the ladder.
They tend to favour Solar Beam. :X
its mandatory for all uber mons to have an analysis and ranking even if they are absolute shit
Hi All
new to the community and ubers got some questions. so why is P-Don S+, is it really that much better then mega sala, xer and ES arceus.
also are ubers which are simply nonviable like reshiram allowed to drop down to OU?? i understand reshiram is part of a God among OU tourna
new to the community and ubers got some questions. so why is P-Don S+, is it really that much better then mega sala, xer and ES arceus.
also are ubers which are simply nonviable like reshiram allowed to drop down to OU?? i understand reshiram is part of a God among OU tourna
This thread is not for questions, It's for nominating pokemons and discussing the Viablity rankings. If you are new ask you questions here.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Hello, I am here to nominate Xerneas for S+ rank. You're wondering right now "WTF is this? Pdon walls it, it shouldn't rise." Well, this isn't so true. Sure, Primal Groudon can potentially wall it, but well, it's only if it's specially defensive. The offensive set can't switch into a +2 Moonblast or Focus Blast very well:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 316-372 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 250-295 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And the specially defensive set gets 2HKOed by +2 Focus Blast:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 223-263 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Xerneas doesn't just have the geomancy set, it has other sets too, like Choice Scarf, AoA, defensive, or even Calm Mind, making it pretty unpredictable. It's pretty easy to get a Geomancy off too, since Xerneas has really nice bulk. Also, PDon isn't the only Xerneas check out there, it has other checks, like Unaware Clefable, and Fire Arceus, although PDon is the biggest problem. (Mega gengar is a problem too, especially if it runs bulk.) While people might say it's not better than threats like MegaMence, but I think Xerneas is one of biggest threats in the tier, even with Primal Groudon around. While you might disagree with this, imo Xerneas deserves a rise to S+.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 316-372 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 250-295 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And the specially defensive set gets 2HKOed by +2 Focus Blast:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 223-263 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Xerneas doesn't just have the geomancy set, it has other sets too, like Choice Scarf, AoA, defensive, or even Calm Mind, making it pretty unpredictable. It's pretty easy to get a Geomancy off too, since Xerneas has really nice bulk. Also, PDon isn't the only Xerneas check out there, it has other checks, like Unaware Clefable, and Fire Arceus, although PDon is the biggest problem. (Mega gengar is a problem too, especially if it runs bulk.) While people might say it's not better than threats like MegaMence, but I think Xerneas is one of biggest threats in the tier, even with Primal Groudon around. While you might disagree with this, imo Xerneas deserves a rise to S+.
S+ rank is reserved for Pokemon that are ridiculously splashable to where most teams have no reason not to run them. P Don is the only Pokemon that fits this well and beyond other threats where most Hyper Offense / Bulky Offense / Balance teams should be running it. While Xerneas fits this description it isn't nearly to the same level, which is why it remains at S rank. A clear demonstration of this is that Primal Groudon has 74% usage for 1760 stats and Xerneas has 46% usage. Primal Groudon simply blanket checks much more than Xerneas does while it is also able to preform other utility such as set rocks, and phaze in addition to being able to setup.
It's not so much that P Don is the largest offensive or defensive threat on its own, it's more of how prevalent it is and how much utility it provides.
It's not so much that P Don is the largest offensive or defensive threat on its own, it's more of how prevalent it is and how much utility it provides.
The issue with Xerneas is its not a hard hitting defensive monster like Primal Groudon that can double as an extremely dangerous sweeper, doesn't provide much defensive utility like E-Killer (revenge killing dangerous threats), or Salamence (just being a defensive beast in general. It does barely make up for this by being a monstrous sweeper that can set up on just over half of the metagame, but Salamence does this too and has fewer checks depending on its set. If anything, I think Xerneas should be S- if we were willing to recreate the S- rank, but I think its placement is fine. Your calcs are rather pointless though as you will only be able to get one +2 attack against Primal Groudon because it will switch into the Geomancy. I have only ever seen defensive Xerneas fit nicely on one team and one team alone so far, Choice Scarf is a last resort if your team is Darkrai weak, but does have some other merit to it, Life Orb is something I would never use as Xerneas will get worn very easily by Mega Sableye and is KOed by +1 Mega Mence if memory serves me correctly, and the Calm mind set is largely outdone by Geomancy as Xerneas only has the bulk to set up once. I do agree that Xerneas does have nice bulk, but its typing doesn't grant it many common resistances, only to dragon- and dark-type moves which isn't enough seeing as Fairy-, Flying-, Fire- and Ground-type moves make up most of the metagame right now.
tl;dr: Xerneas does not provide near enough utility to make it S+ rank when compared to Primal Groudon.
tl;dr: Xerneas does not provide near enough utility to make it S+ rank when compared to Primal Groudon.
Alright its been 2 weeks and i thought i'd put in an update. It seems there aren't any actual suggestions besides Flyceus to C- and Blaze going down (again). I'll go over those. Me and Fireburn are also changing some of the C+ mons around as its a bit full.
Change List:
Arceus-Flying: C >>> C- - Flyceus isn't a bad mon by itself, but as long as Mence is around the reasons to use this are very little in number.
Mega Blaziken: Stays B- - Mega Blaziken is actually an underestimated mon. Regarding the post on it: Mega Salamence is likely to die to HP Ice if it switches into Flare Blitz, and is 100% dead if SR is also up. Primal Groudon can only switch into it once if rocks are up (which they should be if using Blaze) and after that, its 2HKO'd. Mega Blaze and LO Blaze are not different enough to be worthy of different positions. Mega Blaze can run a +Atk nature and still be faster than LO Blaze, while ALSO being stronger. Only thing that regular Blaze offers is the opportunity to run another Mega and potentially Baton Passing the speed boosts to it (which is big i will admit, and is why its in the same rank as the Mega). The bonus SpA that Mega Blaze has is what makes it able to work around its problems with Mega Mence. Sure, Mence is generally better, but that does not make Blaziken bad by itself. Revenge killing is also a wonderful thing, people.
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Ghost: 204-242 (46 - 54.6%)
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Ghost: 213-252 (48 - 56.8%)
Arceus-Poison: C+ >>> C - only checks Xerneas, owned by the majority of the meta
Arceus-Electric: C+ >>> C - when Judgment/Toxic/WoW/Recover is your best moveset, somethin aint right
Mawile-Mega: C >>> C- (PomMan you can argue with Fireburn on this one)
Hopefully we get some REAL nominations soon. By that I mean look at the higher ranks, as a lot of the discussion these days always goes to the rarely used mons :(
Change List:
Arceus-Flying: C >>> C- - Flyceus isn't a bad mon by itself, but as long as Mence is around the reasons to use this are very little in number.
Mega Blaziken: Stays B- - Mega Blaziken is actually an underestimated mon. Regarding the post on it: Mega Salamence is likely to die to HP Ice if it switches into Flare Blitz, and is 100% dead if SR is also up. Primal Groudon can only switch into it once if rocks are up (which they should be if using Blaze) and after that, its 2HKO'd. Mega Blaze and LO Blaze are not different enough to be worthy of different positions. Mega Blaze can run a +Atk nature and still be faster than LO Blaze, while ALSO being stronger. Only thing that regular Blaze offers is the opportunity to run another Mega and potentially Baton Passing the speed boosts to it (which is big i will admit, and is why its in the same rank as the Mega). The bonus SpA that Mega Blaze has is what makes it able to work around its problems with Mega Mence. Sure, Mence is generally better, but that does not make Blaziken bad by itself. Revenge killing is also a wonderful thing, people.
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Ghost: 204-242 (46 - 54.6%)
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Ghost: 213-252 (48 - 56.8%)
Arceus-Poison: C+ >>> C - only checks Xerneas, owned by the majority of the meta
Arceus-Electric: C+ >>> C - when Judgment/Toxic/WoW/Recover is your best moveset, somethin aint right
Mawile-Mega: C >>> C- (PomMan you can argue with Fireburn on this one)
Hopefully we get some REAL nominations soon. By that I mean look at the higher ranks, as a lot of the discussion these days always goes to the rarely used mons :(
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Real nomination as ordered
Nominating Arceus-Water for A Rank
Currently one of the most splashable Arceus formes on balance thanks to it's ability to keep a number of dangerous threats in check including Non-SD Don, Salamence, Rayquaza and Ho-oh. Probably the best Defog Arceus variant currently thanks to it's ability to comfortably Defog on almost all SR users except Deos, which are obviously able to set up SR and prevent Defog from p. much anything thanks to their ridic fast Taunt. Not really sure what else to say, this mon obviously has it's flaws too in that it takes up your Arceus slot and can be kinda passive at times but I believe it offers enough as well as keeping some top threats in check that it can be moved up a rank.
Nominating Arceus-Water for A Rank
Currently one of the most splashable Arceus formes on balance thanks to it's ability to keep a number of dangerous threats in check including Non-SD Don, Salamence, Rayquaza and Ho-oh. Probably the best Defog Arceus variant currently thanks to it's ability to comfortably Defog on almost all SR users except Deos, which are obviously able to set up SR and prevent Defog from p. much anything thanks to their ridic fast Taunt. Not really sure what else to say, this mon obviously has it's flaws too in that it takes up your Arceus slot and can be kinda passive at times but I believe it offers enough as well as keeping some top threats in check that it can be moved up a rank.
The rarely used mons are less accurate than the ones that are used so it becomes way more arguable and it get discussed more as a result. They are less accurate probably because we have less experience with them ourselves. I feel we are not hitting some of the naturally OU pokemon harsh enough, in particular we have too many Steels hogging up the B ranks. I know usage is not the main factor or that it should be looked at completely but does anyone really run Mega Metagross compared to something like Kyurem-W, Scolipede, or Ditto. Ditto ironically is the most used Pokemon of those below A- in 1760 stats despite being C-.
I am nominating a pokemon close to A ranks so I still nominating sort of relevant.
Excadrill B+ to B- This pokemon has 2 main options that it can run. Use Sand Rush and be on a Sand Team with Tyrnaitar or run a Choice Scarf set. The Choice Scarf set is outclassed by Genesect due to lacking bulk and Mold Breaker only is really useful for Gengar pre-mega compared to Genesect's Download. The sand set requires another pokemon and due to weather only lasting 5-8 turns it is possible that Excadrill may not be able to take advantage of weather. It does have Rapid Spin which is a niche that makes it usable though which is why it still in the B ranks.
I am nominating a pokemon close to A ranks so I still nominating sort of relevant.
Excadrill B+ to B- This pokemon has 2 main options that it can run. Use Sand Rush and be on a Sand Team with Tyrnaitar or run a Choice Scarf set. The Choice Scarf set is outclassed by Genesect due to lacking bulk and Mold Breaker only is really useful for Gengar pre-mega compared to Genesect's Download. The sand set requires another pokemon and due to weather only lasting 5-8 turns it is possible that Excadrill may not be able to take advantage of weather. It does have Rapid Spin which is a niche that makes it usable though which is why it still in the B ranks.
I disagree with sending Excadrill down. I don't have any team-building experience with the mole, but I've stolen dice's sample team (it's my favourite offensive team in ORAS) and that thing can really go on a rampage with sand up. The fact that Tyranitar is a great utility mon (best pursuit trapper if you ask me, decent bird check) as well as the fact that the Primals hate switching into it (both are 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock I believe, even defensive Primal Kyogre) make it, and in extension sand teams, viable and a real pain in the ass. It should always be a sub rank lower than Tyranitar of course since that fits on both sand teams and stall, but Excadrill is really one of the better B+ mons and sand is actually pretty unprepared for nowadays.
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I'd also like to oppose Excadrill moving down, for a bunch of those reasons, but also stress; I think I'm the only guy who has used scarf, and it was pretty exclusively for MUTE round 1, where I had to build an excadrill team without ttar, and is significantly worse than sand excadrill is. Also, mold breaker is nice vs lugia, giratina, latias and latios as well, not just mgar.
Thugly, please forgive me for what I must do.
I am requesting Arceus-Poison be moved to C- if not D Rank. If there is no Xerneas on Hyper Offense, it is doing nothing, and even if there is, the Primal Groudon comes in after it falls, uses Rock Polish or Thunder Wave (and possibly SD if its the support Poisonceus), and own Poisonceus. Most teams do not want to give a Groudon set up due to how many different paths it can take offensively in order to beat its checks and counters, and using Poisonceus isn't exactly inviting it to set up if its CM, but it does allow it to set up which is the big deal here. Against stall, Sableye may take have to eat a chunk of damage to burn it, but Blissey owns it after it is burned (CM). It is decent against Sweep's stall team, though. The support one just gets owned by all stall. Against any other archetype, it is owned by Ho-Oh, Pdon, TTar Exca, Pogre and a couple more but you get the picture. It checking Xerneas and some Clefable stall is not enough for it to be usable; ever. Thunder Wave + SD Groudon does this already and does much more.
I am requesting Arceus-Poison be moved to C- if not D Rank. If there is no Xerneas on Hyper Offense, it is doing nothing, and even if there is, the Primal Groudon comes in after it falls, uses Rock Polish or Thunder Wave (and possibly SD if its the support Poisonceus), and own Poisonceus. Most teams do not want to give a Groudon set up due to how many different paths it can take offensively in order to beat its checks and counters, and using Poisonceus isn't exactly inviting it to set up if its CM, but it does allow it to set up which is the big deal here. Against stall, Sableye may take have to eat a chunk of damage to burn it, but Blissey owns it after it is burned (CM). It is decent against Sweep's stall team, though. The support one just gets owned by all stall. Against any other archetype, it is owned by Ho-Oh, Pdon, TTar Exca, Pogre and a couple more but you get the picture. It checking Xerneas and some Clefable stall is not enough for it to be usable; ever. Thunder Wave + SD Groudon does this already and does much more.
Thugly Duckling
I play TCG now
WreckDra, yeah it's a shitter lol. D is harsh I feel, because it does have a defined niche of blanket checking Fairy-types and picking apart stall teams opting for Clefable > Bliss.
I feel like you praise Groudon very highly as a check to it, as switching into the CM set (its only usable set honestly) can be troublesome because Earth Power chips very well at it and Sludge Bomb has that chance to poison. Nonetheless a check however.
Groudon does set up on it, but keep in mind that the only situation where RP Don is setting up on Poisonceus is after Poisonceus has been sent out to countersweep Xerneas (in which case it'd definitely have calm minds under its belt, and Groudon will not be having a fun time using Poisonceus for fodder). But this all assumes Xern didn't have Hp ground to push right past Poisonceus, and Thunder didn't para or whatever; and that Xern is even on the HO team described in the situation.
Trying to think of some redeeming qualities but I honestly can't think of many. Makes for a great lure though, and quite easy to build around in comparison to other low rank arc forms because its best teammates are some great ones that cover its flaws and make many matchups winnable (example being that fat ogre and or Giratina make the Ttar+exca/ground spam and Ho-Oh matchup you described not all that bad), and it performs a role outside of just checking some S Rank unlike many of the fellow C Rank and D Rank mons.
I feel its low rank isn't deserved much for being weak to so many threats, but just for taking up an Arceus form and falling flat on certain variants of matchups and being inconsistent. Look at Fightceus, for example. Stone edge is useless vs non Ho-Oh teams, Ice beam is useless vs Ho-Oh teams. It can check jolly max/+max Ekiller, but fails to check bulky adamant sets. Good vs balance and HO (sorta), but proves useless against stall. These are near identical scenarios shared with Poisonceus, but what makes Poisonceus deserve D rank? I couldn't care less if it went to C-, but there isn't much a reason to make it worse than arc forms which are just as bad and only have a tiny niche in this meta as well.
Keep it in C Rank
I feel like you praise Groudon very highly as a check to it, as switching into the CM set (its only usable set honestly) can be troublesome because Earth Power chips very well at it and Sludge Bomb has that chance to poison. Nonetheless a check however.
Groudon does set up on it, but keep in mind that the only situation where RP Don is setting up on Poisonceus is after Poisonceus has been sent out to countersweep Xerneas (in which case it'd definitely have calm minds under its belt, and Groudon will not be having a fun time using Poisonceus for fodder). But this all assumes Xern didn't have Hp ground to push right past Poisonceus, and Thunder didn't para or whatever; and that Xern is even on the HO team described in the situation.
Trying to think of some redeeming qualities but I honestly can't think of many. Makes for a great lure though, and quite easy to build around in comparison to other low rank arc forms because its best teammates are some great ones that cover its flaws and make many matchups winnable (example being that fat ogre and or Giratina make the Ttar+exca/ground spam and Ho-Oh matchup you described not all that bad), and it performs a role outside of just checking some S Rank unlike many of the fellow C Rank and D Rank mons.
I feel its low rank isn't deserved much for being weak to so many threats, but just for taking up an Arceus form and falling flat on certain variants of matchups and being inconsistent. Look at Fightceus, for example. Stone edge is useless vs non Ho-Oh teams, Ice beam is useless vs Ho-Oh teams. It can check jolly max/+max Ekiller, but fails to check bulky adamant sets. Good vs balance and HO (sorta), but proves useless against stall. These are near identical scenarios shared with Poisonceus, but what makes Poisonceus deserve D rank? I couldn't care less if it went to C-, but there isn't much a reason to make it worse than arc forms which are just as bad and only have a tiny niche in this meta as well.
Keep it in C Rank
I've heard it checks kyurem-w perfectly, that alone should justify C
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