ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[Lemon Ginger]

I would put Hoopa B+ maybe even A-. It has the ability to ruin anything slower than it and acts as a spinblocker and punisher for choicelocked stuff. The scarf set is really just not that great, since you are still slower than stuff that OHKOs you, and STABs face immunity problems. Really I only see two sets: Sub+3 attacks to break stall or offensive trick room. I've been having the most success with trick room...it's the only set that is going to net you more than one KO per switch in. It is really a wrench in HO, since something like Feraligatr, which would presumably force you out and be able to DD after a kill, instead gives you a free turn to set up TR. I've been using Pangoro as support for hoopa. He is happy to take anything that would hurt hoopa and also is crazy under TR as well, becoming a fast parting shot pivot lord.

Hoopa @ Sitrus Berry/Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock / Nasty Plot

Pangoro @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
BraveNature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Hammer Arm

With Hoopa, a +2 shadow ball or focus blast deals with pretty much the entire meta save for meloetta, though it can be hard to get both TR and NP up without sitrus. I would only use psychock on the LO set. Sitrus has the added benefit of actually letting you use magician, which most of the time will get you leftovers or life orb, though can conveniently steal some eviolites.

Ironically, under trick room, this core is ruined by doublade, who kills hoopa with shadow sneak, and pangoro with sacred sword.

Some replay(s), albeit low ladder, but they show how opponents options limited once TR up

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-269408122
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-269411111

 

[Malin]

So your trick room core designed for hoopa is defeated by one of hoopa' most common revenge killers? Nice.

Well while under trick room (and before some Hammer Arms) Pangoro cant deal with Doublade, it still gives Dou problems outside TR, so its not like this core is completely useless against it.

I think I agree with Hoopa to B rank. It has a lot of potential to be uncovered as it is a singular mon in this tier. Maybe we will find more niches for it or end up finding some effectives ways to use it. I can see Hoopa rising in viablity but for now B rank is a good start.

 

[jjoshcja]

To be fair you can just slap Mcamel onto that core and have a reasonable base for a Midspeed TR BO team.

Pretty sure scrappy pangoro would be way better on that setup though, TR has limited turns and spamming a no immunity strong stab with no fear is a lot better than "huehuehue10%"

I'm also pretty fond of midspeed tr hoopa's and pangoro's in general, they don't have the kind of slow that really works well with full bore dedicated TR spreads/teams.

Edit to avoid postspam/derail: Man, running slowking with hoopa, or viriz with pandaman seems like really awkward synergy.

 

[Lemon Ginger]

So your trick room core designed for hoopa is defeated by one of hoopa' most common revenge killers? Nice.

Well I mean let's be reasonable...there's not much that can handle Doublade under trick room anyway, save for M-camerupt as jjashcja mentioned above. It's not like you'd blindly set a TR seeing that your opponent has doublade. Out of TR its at best 50:50 anyway since shadow ball gets you the OHKO, and shadow sneak is a free switch for trappers.

Btw, jjoshcja, MCamel has performed quite well with this core, but it still likes some wish support and bulky switch-ins like Slowking and Verizion.

Man, running slowking with hoopa, or viriz with pandaman seems like really awkward synergy.

Yes, jjoshcja, it's very shaky. Viriz, Sking are patches for stuff that is OU, where I have been normally running this.

Edit: This is getting way off topic...no more core discussion.

 

[Adaam]

I think Mega Glalie could drop to unranked or C if people think that is too drastic. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would every use this over Mamo. It is not fast enough to warrant spending my mega slot on it, especially since outside of its speed, it has no advantages over Mamo. Worse typing means it's heavily worn down by rocks and forced to hold a mega stone means that Mamo actually hits harder than it with a LO unless you run Double Edge. Even then you do like 2% more but end up killing yourself from recoil. It doesn't help that it is hard walled by the tier's most common spinner and is shut down by the presence of Suicune. Freeze Dry is horribly unreliable at beating Cune since at +1 you are doing zero, or you are forced to make godlike predictions because if they don't keep Suicune in or switch it in on your Freeze Dry, you wasted a turn. Explosion is nice and all until you realize you are either missing out on Ice Shard or EQ since you need Double Edge/Return and Freeze dry (unless you want to be dead weight against any team with Suicune, Slowking, Alo, Blastoise, Vaporeon).

 

[The Swan]

I think Mega Glalie could drop to unranked or C if people think that is too drastic. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would every use this over Mamo. It is not fast enough to warrant spending my mega slot on it, especially since outside of its speed, it has no advantages over Mamo. Worse typing means it's heavily worn down by rocks and forced to hold a mega stone means that Mamo actually hits harder than it with a LO unless you run Double Edge. Even then you do like 2% more but end up killing yourself from recoil. It doesn't help that it is hard walled by the tier's most common spinner and is shut down by the presence of Suicune. Freeze Dry is horribly unreliable at beating Cune since at +1 you are doing zero, or you are forced to make godlike predictions because if they don't keep Suicune in or switch it in on your Freeze Dry, you wasted a turn. Explosion is nice and all until you realize you are either missing out on Ice Shard or EQ since you need Double Edge/Return and Freeze dry (unless you want to be dead weight against any team with Suicune, Slowking, Alo, Blastoise, Vaporeon).

I'll second this. In a meta filled with excellent Megas like Beedrill and Aerodactyl, it just seems like a poor choice to pick Mega Glalie. In the end, it will always end up simply going boom, and there are better Pokemon out there that can fill Mega Glalie's role better than it, and they don't use your mega slot. Its stat gains were also focusing on attack, which is great, except for the fact that its speed only got boosted by 20, which puts it at 100, not bad, but with many faster threats out there. Credit to you if you can make Mega Glalie work to great success, but I feel like there will always be better options out there.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

I think Mega Glalie could drop to unranked or C if people think that is too drastic. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would every use this over Mamo. It is not fast enough to warrant spending my mega slot on it, especially since outside of its speed, it has no advantages over Mamo. Worse typing means it's heavily worn down by rocks and forced to hold a mega stone means that Mamo actually hits harder than it with a LO unless you run Double Edge. Even then you do like 2% more but end up killing yourself from recoil. It doesn't help that it is hard walled by the tier's most common spinner and is shut down by the presence of Suicune. Freeze Dry is horribly unreliable at beating Cune since at +1 you are doing zero, or you are forced to make godlike predictions because if they don't keep Suicune in or switch it in on your Freeze Dry, you wasted a turn. Explosion is nice and all until you realize you are either missing out on Ice Shard or EQ since you need Double Edge/Return and Freeze dry (unless you want to be dead weight against any team with Suicune, Slowking, Alo, Blastoise, Vaporeon).

So I made a semi-long post about keeping MGlalie B-, but this crap net I'm using to check fourms ate it, so I'm annoyed and going to make it quick.

Regardless of Mamo's presence, MGlalie still hits like a truck with STAB Refrigerate-boosted Frustration/DoubleEdge. The lack of coverage moves not named Earthquake or Crunch is kind of crap, but it allows it to easily run Freeze Dry, letting it pressure a fair number of bulky waters even without investment(especially Pert and its other aquatic grounded siblings). While 100 Spe isn't the greatest thing in the world, it lets it pressure a few more things than Mamo normally would, including LO Drei, Kyurem, Krook, and Rotom-C. Personally I'm not a fan of either Spikes or Explosion; the former for taking up a slot in general, and the latter for possibly leaving myself without a mon for nothing if misplayed, but I know they both have their uses. I've also tried using Dark Pulse as an option, but it's just a super niche option for Doublade.

No, MGlalie won't generally sweep a team, but it can/will punch big enough holes that something else can. Yes, Mamo does most all of it better. Still isn't worth taking it off the list entirely, or even really falling to C, especially when it is far less niche than the likes of Cloyster or Gourgeist, and doesn't need as much support.

Also, I'd say keep Goodra B-, just because it's one of the very few offensive Special walls we have. Main competitor is probably Draglage, but that comes with a nasty low speed and a few additional weaknesses to common typings in UU(namely Psychic and Ground). Biggest flaw really is the lack of recovery outside of using Hydration Rest, but I think the generally decent power and coverage options on both sides of the attacking coin should keep it where it is.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Mamo is superior to Glalie and that is reflected in the rankings, but Glalie remains a better revenge killer and wallbreaker with its higher speed and power. Steel types typically lack recovery, so Glalie's Super Fang can be crippling, and Freeze-Dry has already been covered. Fun fact, Super Fang + Explosion KO's Cresselia (yeah, I'll gladly sacrifice my Mega to take out that spawn of satan). There really is nothing that enjoys switching into this thing. Sure, the same can be said for Mamo, but the speed difference is what really sets them apart;

Heracross, Nidoking, Hydra, Porygon Z, Haxorus, Krook, Roserade, Kyurem, Toxicroak, Yanmega, Lucario etc etc all naturally outspeed Mamoswine. While it has Ice Shard to deal with some of them, it needs prior damage to OHKO. Being forced into a weak priority move enables safer switches for the opponent, whereas Glalie is free to let off a nuke in these situations. I think these advantages give it enough of a niche to be ranked in the tier.

 

[Chanelle]

Fletchinder can't run taunt. It literally has no room on its moveset. I just explained why Fletchinder was dropped so you can read that in case you're curious why. Also Aromatisse has far more of a niche in the meta than Fletchinder does. Saying ranking it below "things like Aromatisse" is unfair considering Aromatisse has good physical bulk, immunity to taunt (which is a huge deal), and big wish passes unlike florges.

Aromatisse is basically the go-to fairy for more defensive builds, whereas florges has more overall utility. If anything Aromatisse is one of the pokemon who could be even higher than B... it's one of the only dedicated heracross counters, and doesn't have shitty support moves/recovery like Granbull does.

Fletchinder on the other hand has only 1 good attribute: Strong priority. It has 0 bulk, and a decent-at-best attack stat that only gets uplifted to some extent by a strong priority attack. Its bulk is extremely pitiful and it can't even run eviolite because it doesn't get access to brave bird... It's 4x weak to rocks so it has trouble coming in on offense even though offense is the only playstyle it really threatens.

All right, all right. never mind then.

Anyway, I can agree with Tangrowth to A- it's a fantastic pivot to switch into things like Suicune and Heliolisk, I use Assault Vest myself but there are so many more roles it can fill well.

 

[Adaam]

Mamo is superior to Glalie and that is reflected in the rankings, but Glalie remains a better revenge killer and wallbreaker with its higher speed and power. Steel types typically lack recovery, so Glalie's Super Fang can be crippling, and Freeze-Dry has already been covered. Fun fact, Super Fang + Explosion KO's Cresselia (yeah, I'll gladly sacrifice my Mega to take out that spawn of satan). There really is nothing that enjoys switching into this thing. Sure, the same can be said for Mamo, but the speed difference is what really sets them apart;

Heracross, Nidoking, Hydra, Porygon Z, Haxorus, Krook, Roserade, Kyurem, Toxicroak, Yanmega, Lucario etc etc all naturally outspeed Mamoswine. While it has Ice Shard to deal with some of them, it needs prior damage to OHKO. Being forced into a weak priority move enables safer switches for the opponent, whereas Glalie is free to let off a nuke in these situations. I think these advantages give it enough of a niche to be ranked in the tier.

Outspeeding those threats are fine until you realize that Nido, Roserade, Yanmega, Krook, and Hydra all massive damage from LO Shard and that Glalie is walled by so much more than Mamo. Forretress, Aggron, Suicune (you're only killing this if you it switches in on freeze dry and stays in and takes another and is at like 70%), Vaporeon, Slowking, Doublade, and Snorlax. It's a wall breaker that cant even break walls that Mamo can. Super fang + Explosion is gimmicky and a giant waste of a mega. You might as well run DBond Mega Bannete or if you insist on using it then you will have no priority or EQ to touch Steels and Fires.

And again, Glalie's power is being overrated. If it is a "nuke" than Mamo must be a meteor because Mamo hits harder than it. If you're referring to Explosion, why are you using a mega just to dent one mon with Explosion? A mon that is a dedicated suicide trade is not a viable strategy, especially when you are using your mega to do so. The more I think about it the more I believe Glalie is not worthy of a rank

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

Super fang + Explosion is gimmicky and a giant waste of a mega. You might as well run DBond Mega Bannete or if you insist on using it then you will have no priority or EQ to touch Steels and Fires.

I.... don't really recall Super Fang + Explosion as "very gimmicky", seeing as how Super Fang lets Glalie leave a dent in it's many checks like Aggron, Suicune, and Forretress, something that Mamo is not even that capable of doing most of the time. Yeah, M-Glalie can't do much damage to them either, but crippling their HP is pretty big, and can really help pave way for your team to take them out without much trouble.

And again, Glalie's power is being overrated. If it is a "nuke" than Mamo must be a meteor because Mamo hits harder than it.

Ummm.... that's no so-so true. Remember, M-Glalie has Refrigerate, which increases the damage of Normal-turned-Ice moves. Factoring that in, M-Glalie does hit harder than Mamo when using it's STAB moves.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 398-468 (122.4 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 450-530 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sure, Mamo can KO back easily, but what M-Glalie has over Mamo is speed, and while 100 doesn't look that great, it's still enough to outspeed many common offensive mons in the tier.

Also, something I think M-Glalie has over Mamo in this current meta is typing. Yeah, both their defensive typing is outright terrible, but unlike Mamo, M-Glalie isn't weak to Water, which is a very common type right now in this meta. That give M-Glalie less pressure when up against something like Suicune, Feraligatr, M-Swampert, etc.

 

[The Swan]

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 398-468 (122.4 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 450-530 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I see what you're saying with that, but it isn't exactly the best example. If they both OHKO, then why does power matter: Which one can do more overkill? Also, Mamoswine, while being slower, is the superior revenge killer because of Ice Shard. Their bulk is surprisingly similar, but Mamoswine wins this, too, with bulk that isn't 80/80/80, allowing it to take a hit. I'm also surprised by how little Thick Fat has been discussed. While Refrigerate is a great ability, Thick Fat helps Mamoswine take a hit far better than Glalie. As far as the Super Fang issue, I will say that Glalie can deal with those big threats that Mamoswine can't, but you wouldn't really want either one in for a Mega Aggron, so I find the comparison rather unfair if it's just a question of "who will be destroyed first?" Overall, I do find Mamoswine to be the better Pokemon, as while Glalie is actually quite balanced all around, Mamoswine focuses on a few things that capitalize on its pros, making it a better Pokemon with support. (IMO)

 

[Adaam]

I.... don't really recall Super Fang + Explosion as "very gimmicky", seeing as how Super Fang lets Glalie leave a dent in it's many checks like Aggron, Suicune, and Forretress, something that Mamo is not even that capable of doing most of the time. Yeah, M-Glalie can't do much damage to them either, but crippling their HP is pretty big, and can really help pave way for your team to take them out without much trouble.



Ummm.... that's no so-so true. Remember, M-Glalie has Refrigerate, which increases the damage of Normal-turned-Ice moves. Factoring that in, M-Glalie does hit harder than Mamo when using it's STAB moves.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 398-468 (122.4 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 450-530 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sure, Mamo can KO back easily, but what M-Glalie has over Mamo is speed, and while 100 doesn't look that great, it's still enough to outspeed many common offensive mons in the tier.

Also, something I think M-Glalie has over Mamo in this current meta is typing. Yeah, both their defensive typing is outright terrible, but unlike Mamo, M-Glalie isn't weak to Water, which is a very common type right now in this meta. That give M-Glalie less pressure when up against something like Suicune, Feraligatr, M-Swampert, etc.

Ok I think I need to clarify myself.


252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 234-277 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 205-243 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 241-285 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, Mamo's EQ is laughably stronger than Return, and barely weaker than Double Edge, which causes recoil. The icicle crash calc is irrelevant. Mamo clicks EQ or Shard 99% of the time, and the times it uses icicle crash the mon dies anyway (Shaymin, Hydra, Flying types). I guess Glalie has a better matchup vs Cress, which is like the only mon that Mamo can't break (I'm not sure where you are getting that Mamo can't break his "checks" most of the time)

It doesn't matter if Glalie isn't weak to water if it can't even touch half of them. Like I said, it struggles mightily against Blastoise, Alo, Suicune (Mamo's most spammable STAB dents it), Vapo, and Slowking AND has no hopes of breaking past fat steels without Super fang, which it really doesn't have the space to run. If you run super fang then you forego EQ or Shard and are then easily RKed or walled by Fires and Steels.

Also Super fang does 50% max. EQ does a solid 37-45% every time to Forry & Cune, and much much more to Doublade, Cobalion, and any other steel/fire.

Super fang isn't gimmicky, I never said that. The combination of Super Fang + Explosion is gimmicky as it is essentially a suicide bomber with no coverage and waste of a mega.

Lastly, give me neutrality to rocks + Electric Immunity over no water weakness any day

 

[Chamaeleon]

Yeah, both their defensive typing is outright terrible, but unlike Mamo, M-Glalie isn't weak to Water, which is a very common type right now in this meta. That give M-Glalie less pressure when up against something like Suicune, Feraligatr, M-Swampert, etc.

They're both just as vulnerable to scald burns. Mamo and Glalie are just set up foddder for Suicune and Gatr unless you are running Freeze Dry so there is no reason to be leaving them in on either despite Glalie being neutral to water.

 

[Omfuga]

Moving Glalie from B- to C.

Enough discussion has been made on it and I'm pretty convinced that this is the right decision. Please stop talking about the comparison between Glalie and Mamoswine; Mamoswine is almost completely better as illustrated in most of these posts.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Moving Glalie from B- to C.

Enough discussion has been made on it and I'm pretty convinced that this is the right decision. Please stop talking about the comparison between Glalie and Mamoswine; Mamoswine is almost completely better as illustrated in most of these posts.

Of course we shouldn't compare Mamoswine and Mega Glalie because Mamoswine is way better... but that does not mean Mega Glalie deserves a drop. Showing us that an A+ pokemon is better than a B- one does not prove anything. Besides you guys are doing the calcs all wrong. Here is what you should be comparing.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 187-221 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 524-620 (161.2 - 190.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mamoswine is not living a Draco Meteor so I don't know why we are calcing Mamo getting an icicle crash off on a Hydregion. Mega Glalie however is faster and can kill with either Return or Double Edge. That is its niche and its a very good one. You guys are also forgetting that Galie has a 120 base special attack. This is great for running a powerful Freeze dry and Hp fire for steel types like Forretress and Escalv. I think you guys are really under estimating the speed that Mega Glalie provides. It beats out the infamous Hydreigon, does not have to worry about base 80 speed ties, and catches all those base 85 like heracross.

252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 304-358 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Plus it kills.

I know Mamoswine is better overall, but Mega Glalie's niche far exceeds that of the other C ranked mons. Keep it B- imo. There a handful of reasons to use Glalie instead of Mamo. Sorry I should have spoke up earlier.

 

[Vapo]

I really don't agree with dropping Glalie to C, especially not for the reason it ultimately was. I'm not really sure why people are saying Glalie is outclassed by Mamoswine because it doesn't hit as hard. If you calc Jolly LO EQ vs Jolly Return (since neither pokemon can really afford to run Adamant) you'll notice that the damage outputs are strikingly similar. If you calc Jolly LO EQ vs Jolly Double-Edge you'll notice Glalie does considerably more damage, and while some are turned off by the added recoil, the option is there. And even if Mamoswine did out-damage Glalie, I don't see how that is a justifiable reason to drop Glalie in the rankings. Sure, if they had the speed stat I'd bite, but that is not the case. Should Chandelure drop because it has a weaker Shadow Ball than Hoopa? Well, no. There are factors other than damage output that should be considered when ranking pokemon. Glalie has a much better speed stat that allows it to revenge kill pokemon Mamoswine wishes it could (almost all of the offensive pokemon in the 80-100 speed tier; see MrCookiepants's post for the list). Glalie also isn't as one-dimensional as many of you think; it can pull off physical and specially-biased mixed sets effectively. We all know how the physical set functions, but its special set is a completely viable one that I don't see people considering. With 236 Spa EVs, Glalie can 2HKO Suicune after rocks with Freeze Dry (and subsequently less bulky waters such as Mega Blastoise, physically defensive Slowking, and standard Vaporeon). Hidden Power Fire OHKOs and 2HKOs Forretress and Doublade after rocks, respectively. And even with minimal attack investment, it can still break special walls like Florges and Blissey. I understand Glalie has a huge opportunity cost because of the numerous 'better' megas in the tier, but I believe its speed tier and wallbreaking capabilities (on the physical and special side) give it a niche that sets it apart from Mamoswine and justify its placement above the likes of pokemon like Gourgeist that have significantly smaller niches in the current meta.

 

[Adaam]

Again I need to clarify myself. I do not think Glalie should drop because of its power relative to Mamo. I think it should drop because it is a Mega. It's competition is Mamo, and as a Mega, it needs to stand out significantly if you should use it. However, it's weak to rocks, and Mamo isnt. It's barely stronger than Mamo in terms of power. It can't block Volt Switch. It has a billion more checks. No STAB EQ. What it does have is speed and 120 SpA, but due to its lack of dual stabs, it is heavily reliant on prediction and coverage to break walls. If you return on a Suicune switch in, you are forced out. If you HP Fire on an expected Doublade switch but they stay, you die.If you run 236 SpA your main stab becomes piss weak. But it can Outspeed a few more things than Mamo, great, but it undeniably struggles breaking past more walls than Mamo. There isn't a single set that doesn't have a bunch of hard checks, where as Mamo is only walled by Cress and defensive Rotom-H. So that advantage is nowhere near large enough to warrant B-.

I know Omfuga wants the Glalie discussion to end so this will be my last post

Also why can't Mamo run Adamant? I always use it and you only miss out on Adamant Hera (Scarf is most common set), Jolly Gatr (adamant is more common) and Adamant Croak

 

[empire370]

• Mega Glaie is fine C rank for now it has a niche
• I know im not the most experienced battler but I think Blissey rising to B+ is worth discussusing it can check basically any special attacker it can take a physical hit at times except for fighting attacks its fairly decent for B+ at the moment I have another nomination but that could wait sorry that my post sucks I'm not that in to fancy typing yet

 

[Venduria]

• Mega Glaie is fine C rank for now it has a niche
• I know im not the most experienced battler but I think Blissey rising to B+ is worth discussusing it can check basically any special attacker it can take a physical hit at times except for fighting attacks its fairly decent for B+ at the moment I have another nomination but that could wait sorry that my post sucks I'm not that in to fancy typing yet

Blissey is complete set-up bait for a good portion of the tier. Yes, massive Wish passes are great, and its special bulk is unmatched, but its incredibly passive and loses far too much momentum for most teams. Other Wish passers at the very least are more threatening or have versatility in their roles (see Florges with its CM set along with its Cleric set). Being able to reliably switch in and TWave or Toxic can be nice, but its not alone in that role either, and others put on far more pressure and are typically more worthwhile as a result. Also noteworthy is Normal typing, which is simply underwhelming for a defensive mon. No resists on the special side doesn't matter too much but its paper thin bulk on the physical side means it really can't switch in on anything physical ever. Its fine where it is.

 

[empire370]

Blissey is complete set-up bait for a good portion of the tier. Yes, massive Wish passes are great, and its special bulk is unmatched, but its incredibly passive and loses far too much momentum for most teams. Other Wish passers at the very least are more threatening or have versatility in their roles (see Florges with its CM set along with its Cleric set). Being able to reliably switch in and TWave or Toxic can be nice, but its not alone in that role either, and others put on far more pressure and are typically more worthwhile as a result. Also noteworthy is Normal typing, which is simply underwhelming for a defensive mon. No resists on the special side doesn't matter too much but its paper thin bulk on the physical side means it really can't switch in on anything physical ever. Its fine where it is.

Well the settup bait part is arguble but mostly your right but there are literally little to no special attackers that can check Blisse and the the big wish passing is really good B+ mymay be a little to high but I thought it was worth discussing but mostly your argument is correct

 

[The Swan]

I would like to support the raising of NON MEGA Sharpedo from B to B+. With its recent mega evolution, many people have forgotten what Sharpedo can do without evolving. The first thing that will stand out to most is its excellent Attack stat that, when coupled with life orb, can turn Sharpedo into a potent revenge killer because of access to priority in Aqua Jet, though Speed Boost normally takes out any need for Aqua Jet, except revenge killing Pokemon with priority. Did I mention Speed Boost. With only a single boost, Sharpedo can out speed nearly the entire un boosted metagame, bar Mega Aerodactyl. Back to attack power, though, what normally makes people choose Mega Sharpedo over regular is because of Strong Jaw, which further boosts the power of biting moves. But then again, Non Mega Sharpedo with Life Orb has a stronger waterfall and Aqua jet. Also, please don't bring up defenses here, as when Sharpedo mega evolves, it's defense just goes from bad to slightly less bad. Because of Sharpedo's stronger Water STAB, and because it doesn't use a valuable mega slot, I think that it should get the boost to B+. Feel free to disagree!

 

[Venduria]

Well the settup bait part is arguble but mostly your right but there are literally little to no special attackers that can check Blisse and the the big wish passing is really good B+ mymay be a little to high but I thought it was worth discussing but mostly your argument is correct

With a little prior damage LO Hydreigon breaks Blissey with Draco/Superpower.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 208-246 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Reuniclus and every other Psyshock user has little issue against Blissey.
Suicune can stall it out or Roar it away.
Azelf can Taunt and break it, or NP Psyshock blows it away
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 598-706 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Chandelure has trouble, but Sub CM still wins.
Nidoqueen struggles, but can set up hazards in Blissey's face without much retaliation.

Never mind that most of the viable sweepers popular right now target Defense. B isn't a bad spot for it, but I don't see it on the same level as M-Sceptile, PZ, Roserade, and Venomoth.

 

[Omfuga]

All right. I'm really getting tired of people talking about Mega Glalie...

I specifically said not to compare Mamoswine and Glalie, then you say that the reasoning it was dropped is because it's weaker than Mamoswine? I don't know if you guys don't understand why Glalie was dropped or if you just want to argue for "niche" megas that simply aren't that good, but either way, I think some of you should think a little more before you post...

The reason Glalie was dropped is because its role as a wall-breaker can be utilized better by non-mega pokemon, it only has a SLIGHT niche over Mamoswine, and that's basically negated by the fact that it wastes a mega slot. But as I said, this drop isn't a "Mamoswine vs Glalie" thing. I think it's a more viable comparison that every mega above C-rank in this thread have better niches/wallbreaking capabilities than Glalie does.... Not to mention that something like Mamoswine or even Azelf or Entei can do Glalie's job better. I think C-rank is generous for a pokemon that's outclassed in its own right by more than just mamoswine-- but all of the best wallbreakers in the tier. Posting irrelevant calcs of Glalie's d-edge or return vs Mamoswine's icicle crash is stupid, and it proves nothing.

The past page has been a clusterfuck of empty arguments and you guys defend every pokemon to the tee for no reason.

And please stop putting in your post "X pokemon should be above C-rank becuase Y pokemon is in c-rank" when those pokemon aren't even comparable (Ex: Glalie vs Gourgeist). Honestly I think the posts in this thread are getting extremely sloppy, and you guys are taking advantage of me opening a window for every player in the tier to have a contributing opinion.

Vapo put it perfectly when he said: "Should Chandelure drop because Hoopa's shadow ball is stronger? Well, of course not." You can't take 2 pokemon that are of similar typing and say "X pokemon hits harder than Y pokemon, therefore X pokemon is better!" So please, to everyone in this thread, stop acting as if Glalie was dropped because it's weaker than Mamoswine.

Glalie was dropped because it's outclassed as a wall-breaker in general and wastes a mega slot. It's pretty simple and many people such as Do A Bibarel have been pretty clear on why it wasn't B rank material; my apologies for not clarifying why a pokemon who is outclassed belongs in c-rank.

Edit: On a side-note, I'll be posting the changes later tonight or tomorrow

 

[pokemonisfun]

Please don't be too mad at me for posting Omfuga but why has nobody posted (unless i somehow missed a post) about Glalie using spikes. It's a terrifying spiker and stall breaker for me to face because it smashes defoggers and it's not like any spinner except forry can switch into it. The other thing is it can use super fang and taunt (as well as spikes) on the same set to completely dismantle the majority defensive cores. Of course being a stall player I tend to fantasize (not healthy I know) about ways to most efficiently and viciously brutalize my own stall teams so I always overprepare for stall and give too much credit to stall breakers. But super dang and spikes definitely give glalie a niche (it's not like froslass as a suicide lead for ho it can fit on more bulky offense to get a good matchup with slower defensive teams). I'm not saying glalie is b or c or unranked worthy im just saying a goalie discussion isn't complete without a mention of spikes and superfang.