Follow The Leader [Pre Viability Ranking Discussion!]

[The Immortal]

Fixed

 

[EV]

Tan Balonflame

 

[G-Luke]

We are officially suspecting Gale Wings as of this moment forth, and I would love to hear your thoughts on why you believe Gale Wings to be broken, and evidence is greatly appreciated.

Reasons for Gale Wings suspect -

Talonflame might have a garbage movepool and meh stats, but its ability Gale Wings not only saves it from obscurity, but makes it a top threat in OU. In Follow The Leader, followers bypass the stat margin and mons like Archeops, Salamence and Landorus-T terrorize opponents, forcing every well built team to have @ least two Rock resists. The sheer pressure of four to five priority STAB Brave Birds coming from 100+ attack stats usually wear checks down, and uncommon yet effective lures and mons like Swords Dance Apicot Berry Landorus-T and Durin Berry Gyarados effectively take down specific walls that Burdspam teams struggle with, furthur adding to the stress it creates on teambuilding.

So yeah. Suspect lasts for four days. It was supposed to be in place anyways.

 

[Mr12000]

I've been playing the meta now that it's released and I've seen (And used) some underrated, unexpected leads.
- Mew (Although it only gets one ability, it has a nice movepool)
- Breloom (A good lead for stall teams, just spam Leech Seed + Toxic and abuse Poison Heal)
- Goodra (Although it barely has any setup move, Gooey and Sap Sipper are godsends, especially if you mix the latter with Swampert)
- Dragonite (Multiscale gives you free setup turns, plus ESpeed, SD, DD, Roost...)
- Druddigon (Three awesome abilities and some movepool to abuse them)

When I first read of this meta, Archeops was not banned and, as such, I thought of Tyrantrum as a leader because Head Smash + Rock Head. However, I found myself with a better choice, which is Aggron. What does it offer? You might want to take a look at my team (I accept suggestions):

Aggron (F) @ Aggronite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake

Archeops (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Double-Edge
This thing. Rock Head Smash plus coverage. I'm thinking of dropping Double Edge for Aerial Ace, since it might work better against Breloom & co.

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Heavy Metal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Power-Up Punch
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
The right moves in the right hands. Heavy Slam from this thing hurts like hell, plus there's PuP for rising attack.

Rotom-Frost @ Air Balloon
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Autotomize
Aggron offers you also some special movepool, and in this case, the fridge finally gets a 100% accurate ice attack.

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Thunder Wave
- Roar
- Rest
Sad thing is, there's no reliable recovery nor getting rid of status. But Metal Burst always hurts from this one. And there's always Sturdy so you can survive a hit and dish out damage.

Sableye (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Autotomize
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast
More examples of what can be done with Aggron's special movepool, although this one is shaky. Open to suggestions.

What else does Aggron offer: Hone Claws, Solar Beam (Your Charizard Y ain't useless), Surf, Dragon Tail, Outrage, Focus Blast... but yeah. Sometimes you need the right leader and the followers will do their job better than ever. Archeops and Metagross are the stars in this team, thanks to Rock Head Smash and Heavy Metal Slam, respectively.

EDIT: Regarding the Gale Wings suspect, I have to accept my opponent played poorly, but here I have a replay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409588540
And another one, although this one was actually legit.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409621157

 

[Bobjenkins440]

Btw running metal burst is pointless if you also run prankster.

(From the Sableye sample team)

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

A set I've been playing around with

Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Synchronize (Sheer Force)
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Energy Ball / Ice Beam

Late game cleaner. Trick Room turns Camerupt's awful Speed into an advantage, and absolutely wrecks frail offensive teams. Fire Blast and Earth Power get STAB and a Sheer Force boost. Energy Ball hits bulky Water types hard; Ice Beam hits Pokémon like Dragonite harder. EVs maximise power and bulk, with the rest in Defence to cushion you slightly from priority. Works best with Mew as leader.

 

[sin(pi)]

Btw running metal burst is pointless if you also run prankster.

(From the Sableye sample team)

Metal Burst is technically a physical attack, so its unaffected by Prankster.

 

[tegrof19]

Metal Burst is technically a physical attack, so its unaffected by Prankster.

Although it does want a low a speed as possible

 

[sin(pi)]

I know it's really early but I decided to go and peak the ladder with birdspam, to see if it really is as broken as people (inc me) think. I went 24-9, which isn't AMAZING but a lot of that is down to my own misplays. I lost a couple of games to untimely crits and bad EV spreads, too, as well as to cancer Cosmic Power Charge Beam Cresselia.

Proof of Peak (kinda large images fsr)

Team

Talonflame (Lum if you really want)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Archeops @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Sleep Talk / Steel Wing / Frustration
- U-turn

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Flamethrower / Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Roost

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Brave Bird

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing / Sleep Talk / Frustration
- U-turn

Salamence @ Lum Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz / Taunt
- Roost

Talonflame outspeeds Kyub to burn it, Gyara outspeeds base 85s ie Cress. I never clicked Steel Wing or Sleep Talk but there aren't really other options except for the slashes and like Hidden Power.
Other options include Dnite, Skarmory, Aerodactyl (+mega), Honchkrow, Braviar/Staraptor (mainly for elecs), Darmanitan, Moltres, and Mega Sableye (I don't really like this but it does help vs SR)

Replays

I didn't save all of the replays (none of the ones I lost, and not all of the ones I won either). But here are a few.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409615287 - mirror match, zard is useful early on
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409618246 - again, zard is great, and a lucky miss seals the deal (though Gyara would've happily boosted to +6 here)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409619939
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409621157 - he has 4 flying resists including a (Mega which didn't evolve) Aggron and Head Smash Archeops. Gyara just sets up on Metagross and Aggron and laughs.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409623817 - Kecleon is a great leader but it can't do anything to birdspam except 50-50s with Sucker Punch
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409625146
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409632432 - 4 flying resists, but Gyara cleans up once Jolteon is removed
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409640913 - I almost get outplayed by double rocks, but Gyara is just so good it doesn't matter
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409634565 - no flying checks other than Skarm, doesn't last long
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409643650 - vs the Aggron squad again, Gyara just wins
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409649719 - despite 3 elecs, still can't handle the berd (shuckle is bad though)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409655843 - ★atowrk43:cba to fight broken gale wings spam
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409656345 - despite 2 espeeders, a bit of luck skill gives me the win (also Bando does 60% through multiscale l m a o)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409660767 - only 1 bird check = dead

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409662109 - if I'd EV'd Gyara to outspeed 0 speed Cress then this would've been an easy sweep, but I'm bad. Still won, though questionable sets on my opponent's side
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-409664271 - wisp zard is a lord

My thoughts based on laddering:
Gale Wings practically invalidates offense that doesn't have Extreme Speed. The fact that Talonflame gets Taunt, Wisp, Bulk Up and Roost means that you can also handily 6-0 stall (outside of Prankster Sableye Tauntspam lol). Teams require multiple Rock or Bulky Electric-types which is restrictive in teambuilding (people have run rock/electric types specifically to cteam GW and Espeed) and makes you weak to a bunch of other threats (eg Electrics struggle with Kyub, Rocks die to Keldeo/MMeta). It's not interesting to play against (or even with tbqh) and I'd vote for it to be banned.

 

[IcE BraNd]

Idk if anyone asked it before but wouldnt regenerator force to endless battle?

 

[SS445]

Currently first on the meta ladder and i have to say that there is no need to ban talonflame as its movepool is so shallow that it can easily be worked around it.
The one who i think should be banned is sableye which enables you to run a full prankster stall team which is not something you would want to face especially if it contains chansey which coupled with will-o-wisp is really hard to take down. Havent seen sableye teams that much really but facing one was enough for me to know how tough they can be to beat.

 

[sin(pi)]

Idk if anyone asked it before but wouldnt regenerator force to endless battle?

If two people bring regenerator teams and they spend the entire time switching, then yeah, I guess it would (but to be honest they'd deserve that). Otherwise, PP will be used and eventually hit 0 on one side (since imposter isn't a thing), meaning that eventually someone would lose.

Currently first on the meta ladder and i have to say that there is no need to ban talonflame as its movepool is so shallow that it can easily be worked around it.
The one who i think should be banned is sableye which enables you to run a full prankster stall team which is not something you would want to face especially if it contains chansey which coupled with will-o-wisp is really hard to take down. Havent seen sableye teams that much really but facing one was enough for me to know how tough they can be to beat.

Out of curiosity, what are some examples of work around for Talonflame? The things that come to mind are fast electrics, bulky electrics (especially Rotom forms), and fat rock types. Everything else sorta loses to repeated Brave Birds with the occasional Flare Blitz thrown in. You can even set up on stuff like burnt Tyranitar with Skarmory, if you want.
Agree that Sableye stall is toxic to face and may end up being suspect-worthy, but I have fairly limited experience facing that so it might just be "oml stall sucks pls ban" on my part.

 

[SS445]

Out of curiosity, what are some examples of work around for Talonflame? The things that come to mind are fast electrics, bulky electrics (especially Rotom forms), and fat rock types. Everything else sorta loses to repeated Brave Birds with the occasional Flare Blitz thrown in. You can even set up on stuff like burnt Tyranitar with Skarmory, if you want.
Agree that Sableye stall is toxic to face and may end up being suspect-worthy, but I have fairly limited experience facing that so it might just be "oml stall sucks pls ban" on my part.

Its mostly what you said along with extreme speed users as well as any pokemon bulky enough to tank a brave bird and launch back an electric or ice move which almost all members used are weak to at least one. As for my complaint about stall i am not saying it should definitely be banned but its worth a suspect since sableye was already deemed to destabilize the ou meta on its own at one point so imagine how annoying it would be to have 5 others doing the exact same shit coupled with even superior bulk (especially chansey).

 

[jamashawalker]

Idk if anyone asked it before but wouldnt regenerator force to endless battle?

In enchanted items they are looking into it too. I can see that being a problem here too when the sabeleye talonflame hype dies down and the metagame stabilizes a bit. I've been running a tornadus-T and haven't run into one yet. But it has been beating sabeleye teams which is nice

 

[garoninja]

now you can do PP Stall with Pressure ability

 

[Sethevere]

So umm, I've discovered Volbeat...
That thing has such a broad move pool and prankster BP and Tail Glow... Is this really allowed, haha.?

Edit: Nvm, if Gale Wings sticks around anything that resists Brave Bird gets merc'd by Lando

 

[EchoGaia]

imma propose to straight ban Lucario from being a leader.

Due to its expansive movepool, it gives Swords Dance, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed that wrecks offense. And if you thought you were safe with a extreme speed resistant pokemon such as Regirock or Scizor, then you're not, cause it can also learn close combat and blaze kick that wrecks extreme speed resistant pokemons.

Even Mega Sableye can fail to stall this team out, as Lucario give also a good special movepool to wreck it such as Nasty Plot, Flash Cannon, dark pulse, dragon pulse and more, making close to no switch ins to teams composed of Lucario, Metagross, Jirachi, Mega Pinsir, and a dark type special attacker for Mega Sableye.

Plz ban this broken thing, it's even more broken than Gale Wings spam.

 

[Samoyed]

What do people think about Linoone? Not calling for a suspect, just want some discussion about it. As a leader, it gives a very bad move pool, except for two things: Belly Drum + Extreme Speed. Bulky normal types like Snorlax can abuse this greatly, as they set up easily and then have the ability to sweep. When you consider this can be done 6 times on a team with mons much better than Linoone, it becomes quite powerful and it outspeeds and can check a lot of Gale Wings teams. Oh, and you can switch between Gluttony or Pickup for a different effect each time you drum on different mons. Ain't that cool?

Linoone @ Sitrus Berry / Salac Berry
Ability: Pickup / Gluttony
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Seed Bomb / Rock Smash

 

[G-Luke]

imma propose to straight ban Lucario from being a leader.

Due to its expansive movepool, it gives Swords Dance, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed that wrecks offense. And if you thought you were safe with a extreme speed resistant pokemon such as Regirock or Scizor, then you're not, cause it can also learn close combat and blaze kick that wrecks extreme speed resistant pokemons.

Even Mega Sableye can fail to stall this team out, as Lucario give also a good special movepool to wreck it such as Nasty Plot, Flash Cannon, dark pulse, dragon pulse and more, making close to no switch ins to teams composed of Lucario, Metagross, Jirachi, Mega Pinsir, and a dark type special attacker for Mega Sableye.

Plz ban this broken thing, it's even more broken than Gale Wings spam.

I have enough on my plate with a suspect currently in place, and a fee troubles with the coding. Please wait until after the GW suspect and the meta settles before we bring Luke into question.

 

[Angry2]

I wouldn't say that Luke is a trouble, No recovery/hazard control, Basically all he has are outright revenge killers, Doublade litteraly could stop the whole team, EQ? You can have levitate, and not only Doublade, Skarmory or Sableye also can stop him, Unlike what you think, Luke's terrible abilities and no utility is surely not good, Not saying that luke isn't powerful, but it isn't at ALL banworthy

 

[EchoGaia]

so you said

3 checks? is that too much restrictive in teambuilding? For me it's yes, and a ban is also taking that into account. Also, skarmory can be overpowered by a Nasty Plot Special attacker, so is doublade and Sableye.

Actually many things needs to be banned, a full prankster team makes that thing too much unbalanced.

 

[Angry2]

so you said

3 checks? is that too much restrictive in teambuilding? For me it's yes, and a ban is also taking that into account. Also, skarmory can be overpowered by a Nasty Plot Special attacker, so is doublade and Sableye.

Actually many things needs to be banned, a full prankster team makes that thing too much unbalanced.

If everything is broken, Then nothing is, Also I said these 3 counters are enough to (most of the time) basically nullify a luke team, Overpowered by a nasty plot attacker? Do not let him set-up or use unaware, easy as that, Also there are probably much and much more counters and checks, No team is perfect whatever you do, and also the 3 are the ones on the top of my head, there is surely more and more

 

[Ghoul King]

I've been having a lot of fun with Breloom as a leader. Its offenses are somewhat narrow, unfortunately, and it can struggle against Ghosts in particular, depending on their secondary typing/Ability/movepool, but it's really quite nice. The lack of hazard management isn't so bad when you've got bulky Poison Healers that like Toxic Spikes and shrug off Stealth Rock. Spikes is a bit more of a problem, but not hugely so. Being able to just ignore tons of status attempts is amazing, Spore Sub-Punch is incredible off of faster Pokemon like Terrakion, Leech Seed+Poison Heal lets some walls just stall like crazy, Seismic Toss gives said walls some actual offensive presence in spite of garbage offensive stats. I mostly don't feel like I end up with strong match-up bias, unlike pretty much all the other Leaders I've tried so far. (Though Dragonite is a close second for sheer flexibility)

I wouldn't say that Luke is a trouble, No recovery/hazard control, Basically all he has are outright revenge killers, Doublade litteraly could stop the whole team, EQ? You can have levitate, and not only Doublade, Skarmory or Sableye also can stop him, Unlike what you think, Luke's terrible abilities and no utility is surely not good, Not saying that luke isn't powerful, but it isn't at ALL banworthy

Lucario gets Crunch and Dark Pulse. Levitate Doublade is not a hard stop to a Lucario-led team. Really, it's not a stop at all.

 

[G-Luke]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/followtheleader-410386813

So apparently a flaw in the coding allows alternate forms of Arceus and Genesect (not shown but it is allowed) to be used. The Immortal needs to check this out. Also one more left in the Gale Wings suspect, so please keep on topic.

 

[EchoGaia]

Gale Wings deserves a ban yes, too much Pokemon can abuse Brave Bird+Gale Wings while having coverage to hit Steel Types that resists it, like Landorus-Therian, Dragonite, Skarmory among others. Megagross, Mega Manectric, Raikou, Rotom Wash seem to be good stops to this however. Fat Rock types can stop too, but some of them can be nailed with an hidden power or Natural Gift while hitting on their x4 weakness (Water/Grass for Rhydon, Fighting for Tyranitar), Mega Manectric in particular stands out with intimidate and coveted Ice Beam to OHKO Landorus Therian and Gliscor.

Need to try a team with those to see if countering Gale Wings teams won't let others archetypes take advantage of it.