What would YOU do if your child was retarded?

Aeolus

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Who are YOU to say that every single pregnant woman has to give birth?
I can understand why a juvenile on a pokemon board would say something like this... but the trouble is that educated people in high places say it too. Inherent in this statement in the assumption that women get pregnant through no choice of their own.

Pregnancy isn't bad luck; it the result of a progression of events over which people have control (rape, etc. aside). Of course everyone has a choice... unfortunately for all of us... the choice exists in the time line BEFORE sex... not after conception. I wish it wasn't like that since I'm not what anyone would call celibate... but you have to be willing and ready to accept responsibility for your choices.
 
I can understand why a juvenile on a pokemon board would say something like this... but the trouble is that educated people in high places say it too. Inherent in this statement in the assumption that women get pregnant through no choice of their own.

Pregnancy isn't bad luck; it the result of a progression of events over which people have control (rape, etc. aside). Of course everyone has a choice... unfortunately for all of us... the choice exists in the time line BEFORE sex... not after conception. I wish it wasn't like that since I'm not what anyone would call celibate... but you have to be willing and ready to accept responsibility for your choices.
But wouldn't it be more responsible to both you and society to abort the fetus, handicapped or not, if you were financially, mentally and emotionally unprepared to take care of it? By having the child, you would only be weakening society with another mouth to feed and use up resources for people that are already here. You can argue that children from backgrounds of unplanned pregancies have grown up to be successful and useful to society but its a rare case nonetheless, and even then for the first 14 years of its life at, which point it could get a job, it would be a burden to society. Its one thing to plan a pregnancy and become financially secure beforehand, and I hate to generalize but unplanned pregnancies that are kept usually end up on welfare. Now of course thats what welfare is for, but the matter could have been resolved and goverment money saved had it just been aborted in the first place.

Basically, I agree with you on people taking responsibility for their actions but getting an abortion is just as responsible, if not more than keeping a child, especially when considering that most unplanned pregnancies are just that, unplanned and therefore the parents probably don't have the resources to take care of it, leading to goverment money dependency. I respect your position on the value of life, even that of a fetus, but I just don't think that keeping a child whose life will mooch off of and weaken soceity for the first decade or two of its life is morally better than simply aborting it before it has 'life' and circumventing the entire siutation, even with the small chance that child would somehow better society as a whole.
 
there is no point in arguing because I value an unborn fetus as highly as a human life... so we can't get anywhere.
Why is this? Assuming it was in the first trimester (the only time abortion would be morally defensible), it would lack the ability to feel pain, as well as any significant mental capacity. Comparing this to a human life seems pretty stupid to me unless you believe that a fetus is a potential human, which is pretty indefensible in and of itself because then over 5000 "potential humans" would "die" every time somebody masturbated.

needless to say, I would support aborting a baby with a major defect such as down syndrome.
 

Deck Knight

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But wouldn't it be more responsible to both you and society to abort the fetus, handicapped or not, if you were financially, mentally and emotionally unprepared to take care of it? By having the child, you would only be weakening society with another mouth to feed and use up resources for people that are already here. You can argue that children from backgrounds of unplanned pregancies have grown up to be successful and useful to society but its a rare case nonetheless, and even then for the first 14 years of its life at, which point it could get a job, it would be a burden to society. Its one thing to plan a pregnancy and become financially secure beforehand, and I hate to generalize but unplanned pregnancies that are kept usually end up on welfare. Now of course thats what welfare is for, but the matter could have been resolved and goverment money saved had it just been aborted in the first place.

Basically, I agree with you on people taking responsibility for their actions but getting an abortion is just as responsible, if not more than keeping a child, especially when considering that most unplanned pregnancies are just that, unplanned and therefore the parents probably don't have the resources to take care of it, leading to goverment money dependency. I respect your position on the value of life, even that of a fetus, but I just don't think that keeping a child whose life will mooch off of and weaken soceity for the first decade or two of its life is morally better than simply aborting it before it has 'life' and circumventing the entire siutation, even with the small chance that child would somehow better society as a whole.
"Society" doesn't take care of children unless your name is Hillary Clinton. Individual parents take care of children, and if the logic is that leeches on society are to be eliminated, why should we not just excecute everyone on welfare? After all, they are leeches on "society" that the taxpayer must pay for. In fact, one could say they are worse than children because they are knowingly abusing the system and will probably continue doing so for decades more.

Babies in the womb are alive. Otherwise you would not need abortion to kill them. Now, I dispise welfare leeches as much as anyone else, but addressing irresponsibility by "fixing" a symptom doesn't work. If we aborted every single pregnancy in women below the poverty level or on welfare, we would still have poverty and we would still have women on welfare. Abortion does not solve any problems, it simply says the best solution America (or wherever) can come up with to address welfare or poverty is kill children in utero.

This is why I give to a crisis pregnancy center, and in fact I'm helping to set expand an annual fundraiser we have for them to my parish. They provide material, emotional, and other assistance through purely volunteer efforts and donations. A few years ago we raised $2,000 for them. I can only imagine that if we put our brainpower behind more initiatives like that instead of saying "well, might as well take 'em out in the womb and pretend the problem is going away," we'd be much better off.
 
I can understand why a juvenile on a pokemon board would say something like this... but the trouble is that educated people in high places say it too. Inherent in this statement in the assumption that women get pregnant through no choice of their own.

Pregnancy isn't bad luck; it the result of a progression of events over which people have control (rape, etc. aside). Of course everyone has a choice... unfortunately for all of us... the choice exists in the time line BEFORE sex... not after conception. I wish it wasn't like that since I'm not what anyone would call celibate... but you have to be willing and ready to accept responsibility for your choices.
Please don't make assumptions. Just because I'm not throwing rocks through a woman's house because she had an abortion doesn't mean I am under-aged...


Abortion is a matter upon which I really can't discuss, because I haven't looked into it fully. I'm just stating my own opinion, just because you find it to be immoral, doesn't mean we all have to agree with all you pro-life people. I just think it's best to decide when it's a fetus, rather than a three-week-old baby you're leaving on a doorstep.

I also feel that I would like to add that according to Natural Selection, it would be correct to get rid of the fetus and have a new one. You would want an offspring with preferable traits, that would have a greater chance of reproducing to keep my line surviving. Just saying.
 
My brother actually does have autism, so I would prefer if you guys would stop making fun of disabled people because I take it very personally... If my son was, I wouldn't care, I'd just live like normal...
 
What did you find offensive in this thread? That we wouldn't want a child with autism? Nobody in here has made fun of mentally handicapped kids, at least I haven't seen an insult towards one yet.

Edit: And if you did see one then it was possibly a sarcastic remark since this is a serious discussion, not a joke thread.
 
Now don't hate me for this, but personally, seeing all the shit these kids have to go through in school and while growing up, I personally don't think i could raise a handicapped child in an environment where they stand out, especially when they are a child. When I was growing up, I was bullied and had the shit beat out of me almost everyday in school because I was gifted. This was back in grade 5. A good 7/8 years later, and im still dealing with the issues caused back then. I would fucking hate to imagine being a handicapped kid in that kind of situation. I mean, kids pick on other kids because they stand out. They could be too tall, shorter then the others, have red hair, laugh alot, ectect. In the eyes of kid, a handicapped kid sticks out like a sore thumb. Admittedly, many kids are not outright hostile towards mentally retarded children, but its the social problems i would be most worried about. Schools tough enough on kids, but going through it without real friends is something that is incredibly hard to deal with, and is something that sticks with you all throughout life.

Also, im sorry if this post seems a tad unorganized and incoherent, but when the emotions get going, i tend to type as i think with no thought for organization >_<
 

Hipmonlee

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Well. Firstly I guess I have to make the point that I dont believe that aborting a fetus is the same as killing a human at all. This isnt a point I am willing to discuss, I just cant be bothered atm, but I feel like I have to make it so that the rest of my post will be understood.

So the only question is about what I want from my children.

I am pretty sure I would just want to see them be happy. I mean, I cant give a genuine response to that question because I havent made the decision to have children. So I dont know what my reasoning will be when I do make that decision. But I mean, if they are happy and I am happy then I think that would be what I would want. And I think I could be happy raising a retarded child so long as I thought that they could be happy.

So like, if the kid was gonna be a vegetable then sure, I would abort it, no question. But downs syndrome, I think I would want to keep it.

Of course I will presumeably have to ask the mothers opinion, and that would be a big part of it..

Have a nice day.
 

Aeolus

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But wouldn't it be more responsible to both you and society to abort the fetus, handicapped or not, if you were financially, mentally and emotionally unprepared to take care of it? By having the child, you would only be weakening society with another mouth to feed and use up resources for people that are already here.
The way I look at things, people aren't factors in a net present value problem. I don't weigh someone's ability to contribute against what they are likely to consume to determine their value, and by extension, their right to exist. Rather, I operate assuming that people should be allowed to live if it is within our power to make it happen.

COalex said:
Why is this? Assuming it was in the first trimester (the only time abortion would be morally defensible), it would lack the ability to feel pain, as well as any significant mental capacity. Comparing this to a human life seems pretty stupid to me unless you believe that a fetus is a potential human, which is pretty indefensible in and of itself because then over 5000 "potential humans" would "die" every time somebody masturbated.
I disagree that abortion is morally defensible in the first trimester. Viscerally, we feel better about an abortion 3 weeks in than about a late term abortion where the fetus' brains are sucked out as it come down the birth canal... but intellectually... I don't think I can really justify either in the moral framework I impose upon myself. I just don't understand how someone is able to draw a line at 3 months and say "ok, now you can't kill it." What about 2 months and 28 days? 25 days? 20 days? etc. The "it can't feel pain" or "it doesn't have thoughts" arguments seem flimsy and artificial to me. Also, comparing abortion to masturbation is ridiculous.

BLAZIKEN_57 said:
You say in your posts that you don't know what you're talking about. Sharing your random thoughts doesn't do anyone any good.
 
You say in your posts that you don't know what you're talking about. Sharing your random thoughts doesn't do anyone any good.
what the fuck are you talking about, aeolus?

there are no hard facts that make one side of this argument more correct than the other; it all comes down to personal opinion and what one considers amoral, and thats the reason the debate has gone on so long and will continue to go on. therefore 'random thoughts', as you put them, are all we have to go on. seriously, youre smarter than that.
 

Aeolus

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What the fuck are you talking about, Glen? Go ahead and read what I said again and then look at what I've quoted below. You misunderstood completely; I thought you were smarter than that.

BLAZIKEN_57 said:
Abortion is a matter upon which I really can't discuss, because I haven't looked into it fully.
BLAZIKEN_57 said:
But I'm not really not in any position to argue about this.
 
his self-depracation, which probably only exists due to the fact that hes arguing with an administrator, does not automatically make his argument or opinion invalid. dismissing him because hes willing to admit that he isnt that knowledgeable on the subject is ridiculous, as, like i said, this debate is not based on knowledge at all.

furthermore, while i am guilty of things like that myself on occasion, patronizing him due to his pokemon avatar or whatever is pretty fucking stupid when youre dealing with an issue like this. i guess thats what bothered me in the first place!
 
his self-depracation, which probably only exists due to the fact that hes arguing with an administrator, does not automatically make his argument or opinion invalid. dismissing him because hes willing to admit that he isnt that knowledgeable on the subject is ridiculous, as, like i said, this debate is not based on knowledge at all.
I think it is a pretty good reason to dismiss someone in a congregation thread, actually. It's stated to exhaustion, but this isn't Firebot. You definitely don't have written your thesis on abortion to post but having 'not looked into the matter' prior to posting is pretty silly. Random thoughts and opinions churn out posts like "I personally don't know what I'd do. I hope I never come across this situation...", which is why it's good to do at least some research first if you don't know what you're talking about.

Glen said:
furthermore, while i am guilty of things like that myself on occasion, patronizing him due to his pokemon avatar or whatever is pretty fucking stupid when youre dealing with an issue like this. i guess thats what bothered me in the first place!
I don't see where he made fun of his pokemon avatar and I'm fairly sure he didn't? I don't really see why there was a need to jump him either way though!
 
his self-depracation, which probably only exists due to the fact that hes arguing with an administrator, does not automatically make his argument or opinion invalid. dismissing him because hes willing to admit that he isnt that knowledgeable on the subject is ridiculous, as, like i said, this debate is not based on knowledge at all.
I agree, I'd like more discreditation than saying "Well maybe I'm wrong" (more or less). That could be a sign of humbleness and acknowledging that he isn't the authority on a topic that he still wishes to engage in conversation/debate. However...

Aeolus, however, you raise a good point. The lack of confidence on such definitive statements such as:

I also feel that I would like to add that according to Natural Selection, it would be correct to get rid of the fetus and have a new one
or
Abortion is not a 'moral atrocity
or even
As a fetus, I don't see the moral harm in abortion
I'd actually like to see things like the above quotes pointed out, rather than what could be self admitted intimidation, humbleness or downright lack of experience.

Although, in my opinion, just a casual scroll down the screen will indicate that blaziken is trying to argue as both the moralist and the darwinist...and the fetus. It is hard to argue from three (potentially and probably) opposing viewpoints.
 
I think it is a pretty good reason to dismiss someone in a congregation thread, actually. It's stated to exhaustion, but this isn't Firebot. You definitely don't have written your thesis on abortion to post but having 'not looked into the matter' prior to posting is pretty silly. Random thoughts and opinions churn out posts like "I personally don't know what I'd do. I hope I never come across this situation...", which is why it's good to do at least some research first if you don't know what you're talking about.



I don't see where he made fun of his pokemon avatar and I'm fairly sure he didn't? I don't really see why there was a need to jump him either way though!
no, but an abortion debate is different because being knowledgeable doesnt fucking matter. if it did, then it would merely be the side with the most facts to back them up wins.

but it isnt! the abortion debate is based entirely upon emotion and feeling and other intangibles like that! its about whether you feel killing an unborn child is wrong, and whether you feel life begins at conception, and a bunch of other shit that no facts like 'unborn children have fingernails at x number of weeks' or 'up to x number of weeks they cant feel pain' are going to change.

when its based entirely upon personal opinion, which is a rarity in congregation threads, as long as someone has decent input (which discounts the bumblefuck post about hoping it doesnt happen to him) it shouldnt fucking matter how much theyve read up on the subject. if i were a doctor, i wouldnt criticize aeolus and his position because he wasnt as knowledgeable as me. well, i might, but id be an asshole for it.

and in regards to the pokemon avatar comment, i extrapolated based on aeolus saying 'i can understand why a juvenile on a pokemon board would feel that way', or something to that effect, which is really unfair.
 
He was merely stating that it was what he would expect from a juvenile(child) posting on a pokemon forum, I don't that that is that unreasonable although fairness is always a matter of perspective.





Anyway getting back on topic, I was chatting with Aeolus, Obi, and Arti about this on IRC and it got me thinking a bit and solidified my thoughts on this(and abortions in general) a bit more. I think most of the regulars here are aware that is highly unlikely I would end up in a situation where this would be relevant to me, but it's good to have it sorted out, I guess.


Obviously, with abortion, like most of the controversial ethics debates, religion(or lack thereof) tends to be a big factor in determining what most people think. It's lack thereof in my case, but I think even so, regardless of whether or not there's any potential afterlife for the kid, it makes life that much more important, you know. Like, if most of the various religions are correct the kid would probably end up in some sort of afterlife since s/he did no wrong, which is potentially better than it's going to do in life depending on how bad the mental retardation ends up being. On the same token though, if there isn't an afterlife of any sort I think that makes life that much more important. It's hard to quantify the value of a life even with the whole heaven/hell thing factored in, but it's even greater if life on Earth is all we have... I don't think I could justify taking the kid's life to myself.

It's still up for debate when the kid starts feeling pain and becoming aware and that sort of thing(which is where that research comes in I guess!) for the most part the first trimester is expected to be a period where the above doesn't happen currently, but then in chatting with the aforementioned people we eventually got around to... what is and isn't a child? Where do you draw the line? Is masturbating the same thing as an abortion? How about people who never have sex but have the potential to, is that equally wasteful? I think for me the line is as soon as the fetus starts forming so I don't really consider abortion a viable option, I'm definitely not a man of strong morals but I just don't think I could justify it to myself.

That said, I don't think I would keep it even if it was perfectly fine, let alone if it had (potentially severe) mental retardation. I would probably go the adoption route, I'm biased that way, being adopted myself, but there's a massive amount of people waiting to adopt children so it doesn't make much sense to be an unwilling parent when there's so many potential parents out there who can't have children of their own who would love a child.



Of course I'm not factoring the mother into the above logic, but without her input that's how I feel I think!
 
He was merely stating that it was what he would expect from a juvenile(child) posting on a pokemon forum, I don't that that is that unreasonable although fairness is always a matter of perspective.
yeah but calling someone a child in an argument is fucking ridiculous and, in this case, offensive to a lot of people; many people share BLAZIKEN_57's (haha oh my god how am i defending someone with a name like that [see? i do it sometimes too]) stance on the issue, and saying that its understandable for a child to feel that way is demeaning to basically everyone that doesnt agree with aeolus ?_?

and anyways, since the only indicator of this guy being a child is his pokemon avatar, i just assumed the two were related. if i was wrong on that front then im sorry, but it doesnt make calling him a child any less unfair!
 
What happens if you know you fetus has a 50% of being stillborn right away? What about a 50% chance of being mentally retarded? What if that retardation could be that 'something special' that families love, like Down's Syndrome?

Just to get a bit more back on topic....and also what would you do?
 
It's still up for debate when the kid starts feeling pain and becoming aware and that sort of thing(which is where that research comes in I guess!) for the most part the first trimester is expected to be a period where the above doesn't happen currently, but then in chatting with the aforementioned people we eventually got around to... what is and isn't a child? Where do you draw the line? Is masturbating the same thing as an abortion? How about people who never have sex but have the potential to, is that equally wasteful? I think for me the line is as soon as the fetus starts forming so I don't really consider abortion a viable option, I'm definitely not a man of strong morals but I just don't think I could justify it to myself.
Well, here are my thoughts on why I solidly draw the line at conception.

1. I have never heard of, or seen, a sperm turn into a human by itself. Similarly, I've never seen an ovum turn into a human by itself. If anyone got some contradictory information... then I'll refine my argument.

2. From any adult human, you can do the following. Was he a human 1 minute before? etc. etc. until he was back inside the mother's womb. This is "critical point #1". Is a baby a human before it is born? IMO, yes, it is. I can argue this point later, but for now, I'm going to assume that everyone agrees with me on this one. A baby, seconds before it is born, is a human. Why? There are plenty of sucessful premature births and the baby does survive.

3. From inside the womb, we can then reverse the process. The stages of a fetus are multiple shades of gray. Yes, we can split them up into trimesters similar to how we can split shades of hot colors into red, orange, and yellow. But really, it all flows together. Seconds before "seconds before birth", the child still is human. Seconds before seconds before... (repeat as necessary till you have the zygote), the thing is still human. Unless someone wishes to clearly draw a line elsewhere. But "trimesters" are really just as blurry as any other line drawn biologically. (even super-precise words like "species" have things that fall under the grey line, such as ring species)

*reads over argument*. Damn, it sounds circular. Oh well, I'm going to post it anyway >_> I'll deal with it in the morning.

Anyway, my point is, conception is the only moment where I can clearly divide between "human" and "non-human". Humans have all 46 chromosomes, haploid cells (such as sperm and ovums) have only 23 chromosomes.

Minor variations of the chromosome number, such as in down's syndrome or whatnot, still keep the human human.
 

Hipmonlee

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Well there are plenty of moments that could be considered the line between human or non human. If you say being able to survive outside the womb is your moment of choice (which is what I believe the american law is based on) it is hard to say when that exact moment is - but it is not so hard to say when it isnt (IE before the third trimester).

Have a nice day.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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I'm with you on that one Dragontamer. I feel the same way about religious debates. Both sides are never going to fold, so it's essentially arguing for argument's sake. It can be fun, but you see it so many times it just gets boring.

By the way in response to the original question: Yes I would opt for abortion if the mother was alright with that decision.
 
I would rather raise a healthy child than one that is disabled in any way, but ultimately the decision is for the pregnant mother. Severe cases would be much easier for both my partner and I, but the passable cases would require a lot of introspection on our morals.

If the severity of the retardation is traceable, then abortion (if my choice) would be based upon that. The problem is, as someone said before, drawing the line between the point of abortion and what I believe to be healthily raisable.

This issue is a bit hard at this time in my life, but I think that abortion would be based upon severity. That's all I can determine right now.
 

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