Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[1LDK]

Meowscarada outclasses as a knock off+u-turn user.
Iron treads and great tusk out class it as rapid-spin+ knock off users and quaquaval outclasdes it as u-turn+rapid spin user.

None of them have the combo of the 3 moves at the same time, treads and quaquaval sucks, and regenerator means it actually outlives meow and potentially outlives tusk, imagine the regenerator cores, Tornadus T and Tangrowth are the only regenerator mons that can be used offensively (somewhat) so having the option for both offense and stall is cool

 

[Return to Zero]

Meowscarada outclasses as a knock off+u-turn user.
Iron treads and great tusk out class it as rapid-spin+ knock off users and quaquaval outclasdes it as u-turn+rapid spin user.

Why you ever use a pokemon with this much competition?

Simple. Role compression. These Pokemon are all stronger than Cyclizar (Although only Meow is faster), but none of them can do everything Cyclizar. The bike lizard can cram all of these moves into its set and outspeed most of the unboosted metagame. If you've got Cyclizar, you might not need to put Rapid Spin on Great Tusk, for example.

 

[VTMagno]

Hello everyone; I'd be particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on Garganacl. Its effects on the OU metagame are fairly non-linear, which makes it a Pokemon that's less of an obviously oppressive entity in the metagame in comparison to past suspects. Because of this, there is much to be discussed.

If you'd like some place to start, try to answer some or all of the following:

1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?
2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?
3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?
4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?
5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?
6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?
7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?

I'll add my thoughts to the fray later this weekend!

usually don't respond to these kinds of things but i hate garg so i'll do it

1 - Usually I end up changing my mind on a lot of tiering survey placements I vote for but I still stand by the 4 I put in. It's obviously not Espathra level where it's very obviously dumb and cheesy but I still think it's a pretty unhealthy presence overall

2 - Defensive counterplay can largely depend on the set. Huge example is Cloak Gholdengo which I hardly use anymore because a lot of Gargs are running EQ nowadays. I feel like it's manageable in a vaccuum with some bulky cloak mons who don't mind Curse EQ like Amoong or ID Corv, but can be pressured with Hazard Stacking or Knock Offs. I've also seen stuff like sub Dirge which is a pretty good answer but can be scary against Tera Ground EQ, which breaks the sub regardless. Offensive counterplay is slightly more wide but it still depends on the tera type and there's a lot of times where Garg doesn't mind sacrificing some of its HP to get a Salt Cure off.

3 - Meow and Tusk I feel are great partners (then again, tusk is a great partner to everything lol) due to being able to pressure most Cloak mons with Knock Off. I feel like a lot of the difficulty to play around Garganacl comes from most good Cloak mons generally being checks to Meowscarada. Even Knock Off Valiant can work pretty well. Also you pretty much always want a Spiker with it since Salt Cure forces so many switches.

4 - Water and Fairy are the obvious ones but I legit think there's merit to Tera Ground. Boosts EQs in a way that Pex can't Haze them away and breaks Dirge's sub. Also allows you to run rocks in the last slot due to not having to boost for your EQs to be threatening. Still worse than Water and Fairy, obviously, but I've used it a bunch and it's kinda legit

5 - Curse EQ restricts the counterplay even further beyond "just use Cloak". If it was just that I'd already consider it pretty restricting on the builder, but that set makes being able to prep for each Cloak mon so easy. Block is another interesting one but I don't have as much experience w it, so I won't comment on it, but it can be nasty under the right circumsances.

6 - That one Protect set. Why. It was good before everyone started running Cloak everywhere but now it requires way too much support to make it work and its benefits aren't anything special when compared to other sets.

7 - I don't think that Shed Tail is anywhere near an issue anymore without Espathra around and most of its brokeness is related to Volcarona, so if there's anything that needs to be looked at it's that. I'm not sure which I would support a suspect for first, probably Volcarona but both are worth a look.

 

[awyp]

Hello everyone; I'd be particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on Garganacl. Its effects on the OU metagame are fairly non-linear, which makes it a Pokemon that's less of an obviously oppressive entity in the metagame in comparison to past suspects. Because of this, there is much to be discussed.

If you'd like some place to start, try to answer some or all of the following:

1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?
2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?
3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?
4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?
5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?
6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?
7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?

I'll add my thoughts to the fray later this weekend!

As the official spokesperson of the 'Suspect Garganacl' movement I have a few comments

1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?

Voted a 4/5 because I believe it's pretty restricting on the current metagame it forces you to have one of your own mons to carry Covert Cloak, and times where there's no opposing Nacl on the team it usually becomes a wasted item. No one uses it outside for other reasons that aren't Nacl related. If it doesn't end up getting banned I think the meta would still end up being manageable (views are subject to change but that's how I feel now)

2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?

Tricking Nacl usually breaks it. Of course killing the opposing mon (that has Knock Off) on the other team before it gets to your mon with Covert Cloak so you're able to keep it. Also standing behind a sub if it's not a curse variant, or just using Sub Unaware Skele.

3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?

A mon with Knock Off I think is ideal, and personally outside of that I've been pairing it with a bulky water (Toxapex) for opposing Gholdengos. I think overall having 1 mon with Knock Off and another bulky wall is needed for a good pairing.

4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?

I think Nacls strongest tera types currently are overall just the best defensive types that people stick on any mons for defensive purposes when they can't think of anything, so Fairy and Water are definitely at the top.

5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?

I've stated before I think the Curse Tera Water EQ set is probably the most problematic because it eventually beats Gholdengo and outside of Gholdengo it's really hard to take down something that cannot get statused. The Block set is something I can see becoming very low effort an problematic where you can just trap the opposing mon and start setting up in their face with Curse.

6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?

Uh, I feel like I never understood the reasoning of the Iron Defense Body Press sets tbh, but they're not that big of a deal because Cloak Dengo walls it hard.

7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?

As I stated before, I think Garganacl needs to be prioritized first, after should be Volc, but definitely Shed Tail needs to be looked at eventually especially with the release of Home and how there will be other offensive abusers to pair well with Orthoworm. Volc is definitely a problem and something I can get behind in terms of a suspect test but in reality I don't think it's meta breaking in comparison to Nacl at this moment. Tera + Heavy Duty Boots + Flame Body Burn is what makes Volc overwhelming for sure but it's definitely manageable if you prepare for it. I think depending on the set it runs that's what can be annoying.

Is it going to be Wisp + Fiery Dance + Morning Sun + QD?
Is it going to be QD + 3 Moves?
Is it going to be QD + Morning Sun + 2 Moves?

the world may never know.

 

[kosecant]

I’ve been pretty mixed on garga, but recently I’ve come to see how bonkers this Mon is. Curse sets are crazy, block sets are absurd, the standard set is amazing, and overall I think Garg has become as defensively oppressive as gen 7 pex was. If you do not have a game plan against garganacl, you lose (as long as your opponent isn’t complete brain dead in how they play)

I’m still on the fence on whether or not it’s ban worthy, but there should 100% be a suspect test. There’s so many factors that make this Pokémon the defensive behemoth that it is. Stellar bulk, fantastic move pool, and what I think is the largest factor, it’s ability. Purifying salt is what I think is what pushes garganacl over the edge. Immunity to status is amazing for a wall, and a free resistance to ghost (that doesn’t change with Tera!) is huge. if we could use status to cripple its longevity, I don’t think this discussion would even exist, but this is what pushes garganacl over the edge, at least in my perspective.

 

[LadyLynn]

I keep hearing people talk about Last Respects like its guaranteed to get banned, but isn't that dependent on whether Basculin can prove itself broken with it?

I can imagine Basculin being broken with it, but I don't think that's a sure thing. It has a lot more exploitable weaknesses than Houndstone did.

____________________________________

Its lack of natural Ghost typing means it loses out on a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs without Tera Ghost, meaning you'll often need to save your Tera for it, and there's a large opportunity cost to picking any other Tera type on it.

And its lowered capability for defensive Teras combined with its 98 base speed, crappy defenses, and lack of speed boosting ability other than Rattled make it much easier to revenge kill than Houndstone was.

I think Basculin has best odds of sweeping with a Scarfed Tera Ghost Last Respects, but there are still some things that can take a hit from that(especially with a defensive Tera Dark, and god forbid Tera Normal lmao), and it'll also just die if anything on the opponents team has Sucker Punch.

____________________________________

Again, I'm not saying that Basculin with Last Respects is definitely not broken - it absolutely could be - but I recommend against getting your hopes up assuming Houndstone and Basculegion will dodge Ubers, because that's dependent on a Last Respects ban that isn't guaranteed to happen.

(i can also imagine a world where last respects gets banned for being matchup fishy or otherwise unhealthy rather than because of it making even basculin overpowered, but i dont think thats something we can count on without actually having seen it in action)

 

[Return to Zero]

I keep hearing people talk about Last Respects like its guaranteed to get banned, but isn't that dependent on whether Basculin can prove itself broken with it?

I can imagine Basculin being broken with it, but I don't think that's a sure thing. It has a lot more exploitable weaknesses than Houndstone did.

____________________________________

Its lack of natural Ghost typing means it loses out on a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs without Tera Ghost, meaning you'll often need to save your Tera for it, and there's a large opportunity cost to picking any other Tera type on it.

And its lowered capability for defensive Teras combined with its 98 base speed, crappy defenses, and lack of speed boosting ability other than Rattled make it much easier to revenge kill than Houndstone was.

I think Basculin has best odds of sweeping with a Scarfed Tera Ghost Last Respects, but there are still some things that can take a hit from that(especially with a defensive Tera Dark, and god forbid Tera Normal lmao), and it'll also just die if anything on the opponents team has Sucker Punch.

____________________________________

Again, I'm not saying that Basculin with Last Respects is definitely not broken - it absolutely could be - but I recommend against getting your hopes up assuming Houndstone and Basculegion will dodge Ubers, because that's dependent on a Last Respects ban that isn't guaranteed to happen.

(i can also imagine a world where last respects gets banned for being matchup fishy or otherwise unhealthy rather than because of it making even basculin overpowered, but i dont think thats something we can count on without actually having seen it in action)

Do you think White Basculin isn't going to end up on a lower tier's banlist because of Last Respects? If it doesn't get banned for being way too strong for NU or PU or wherever it lands, it's going to get banned for encouraging people to run something as weak and otherwise useless as Basculin for the sole purpose of fishing for Last Respects cheese. It'll be like people running Diglett or Gothorita for their broken abilities because Dugtrio and Gothitelle got banned. I just can't see Last Respects sticking around when just having it makes Pokemon banworthy and the only falloff is the users being too slow and weak for other tiers.

(Or at least, I'd hope that's enough to get it banned.)

 

[Red Raven]

Hello everyone; I'd be particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on Garganacl. Its effects on the OU metagame are fairly non-linear, which makes it a Pokemon that's less of an obviously oppressive entity in the metagame in comparison to past suspects. Because of this, there is much to be discussed.

If you'd like some place to start, try to answer some or all of the following:

1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?
2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?
3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?
4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?
5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?
6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?
7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?

I'll add my thoughts to the fray later this weekend!

1. I think it was five. Because I hate this thing almost as much as I hated Chi Yu and Chien Pao. Salt cure would have been fine for me but that fact that its ability reduces ghost damage and blocks status makes it very annoying to deal with

2. Most cloak users. I prefer Among Us because even if Garganacl teras, Among Us still threatens it with either of its stabs. Offensive counterplay really varies depending of Monolith has used tera or not and what type it was. Before tera, Greninja and Meowscarada are probably the best ones. After tera, if it's water then Meowscarada is the sole best one and if its fairy, Gholdengo. Trick is also a very strong counter play against it to cripple it for the rest of its miserable existence

3. Probably knock off users. Meowscarada is a great one because the cat forces in Among Us

4. Fairy imo. That type is so god damn broken offensive and defensively. I can understand wanting to nerf dragons but they just put in another broken shit in the game. Gamefreak clearly doesn't give a damn about competitive pokemon whether its singles or doubles

5. Quite literally all of them. Salt cure is just so bs of a move that it makes any set oppressive. Curse or idbp would be more than managable if your mons don't take spikes damage every turn

6. Not sure since I haven't really run into much variety outside of idbp, rocks protect and random curse stuff

7. Very pressing. Smogon has got big balls for bringing out the banhammer this quickly but they need even bigger balls and slam this damn Monolith with the hammer too. If the support of it was very high, I really hope it gets quickbanned rather than be suspected

 

[LadyLynn]

Do you think White Basculin isn't going to end up on a lower tier's banlist because of Last Respects? If it doesn't get banned for being way too strong for NU or PU or wherever it lands, it's going to get banned for encouraging people to run something as weak and otherwise useless as Basculin for the sole purpose of fishing for Last Respects cheese. It'll be like people running Diglett or Gothorita for their broken abilities because Dugtrio and Gothitelle got banned. I just can't see Last Respects sticking around when just having it makes Pokemon banworthy and the only falloff is the users being too slow and weak for other tiers.

(Or at least, I'd hope that's enough to get it banned.)

Whether or not White Basculin gets banned from lower tiers isnt really relevant to the question of whether or not Last Respects should get banned to Ubers, the OU banlist.

Also, I think the more comparable precedent here is in Sword and Shield - where Dracovish got banned rather than Fishious Rend, because the move was fine on Arctovish.

Again, its totally plausible for Last Respects to wind up getting banned, but I really recommend against assuming it to be a sure thing.

 

[Return to Zero]

Whether or not White Basculin gets banned from lower tiers isnt really relevant to the question of whether or not Last Respects should get banned to Ubers, the OU banlist.

Also, I think the more comparable precedent here is in Sword and Shield - where Dracovish got banned rather than Fishious Rend, because the move was fine on Arctovish.

Again, its totally plausible for Last Respects to wind up getting banned, but I really recommend against assuming it to be a sure thing.

I'd argue it's relevant. The fate of the move is to be too good for any tier its user would otherwise end up in and jack them up several places on the list. It just so happens that Houndstone needed to go all the way to Ubers. Fishious Rend isn't really comparable because it's not nearly as strong as Last Respects and Arctovish doesn't have the traits that made it so incredible on Dracovish (Higher Speed, much better typing, Strong Jaw). Last Respects doesn't need anything except a Choice Scarf, five KOd party members, and a dream. Unlike Fishious Rend, it doesn't need to be on a certain Pokemon to be usable. If it's on someone at all, then it warps that entire mon's existence around it, and because it's so strong, that works. The move as a whole is so uncompetitive because White Basculin loses its status as an actual Pokemon and just becomes "the only thing so weak that it ends up in like RUBL instead of Ubers even though it has That Move". Same thing with Basculegion-F, which isn't super overtuned like the male version and would probably be fine for OU if not for Last Respects. Banning it is the only real play, because otherwise, anything else unfortunate enough to get this move has to sit in a banned tier too high for them to ever see use in.

 

[1LDK]

Honestly, 420 speed (scarf jolly) is kinda bad in this meta considering it doesn't even outspeed jolly/timid Dragapult

With that being said, it still outruns enough that it basically becomes a defensive destroyer, eventually people are just gonna make it into spicy Chinese food after 2 days in the fridge type of stallbreaker where some turns of preparations and the entire match turns into explosive non-stop diarrhea

The only difference is that Houndstone destroyed everything, while Basculigeon will only destroy stall, and, as much as I'm glad, you have to let the thing be viable, for the sake of balance

Sure, you will never know 100% until you tried, but you can make predictions based on available data (shoutout to the speed tier thread for sponsoring this post)

 

[Solar Power]

Hello everyone; I'd be particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on Garganacl. Its effects on the OU metagame are fairly non-linear, which makes it a Pokemon that's less of an obviously oppressive entity in the metagame in comparison to past suspects. Because of this, there is much to be discussed.

If you'd like some place to start, try to answer some or all of the following:

1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?
2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?
3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?
4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?
5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?
6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?
7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?

I'll add my thoughts to the fray later this weekend!

1. I gave it a 2 iirc. I don't think it's one of the major issues with the tier right now.

2. Counterplay typically revolves around (A) Covert Cloak (B) Regenerator cores (C) Bulky set-up Sweepers and (D) Wallbreakers

2. (A) Covert Cloak trivializes Garg and completely shuts it down unless it's ID+Body Press or Curse + EQ. ID+Body Press on its own is straightforward to play against without the additional threat of Salt Cure and Curse + EQ sets take a while to get going and lack immediate power. Stealth Rock + Protect sets become an immediate liability against teams with Covert Cloak users by giving away free turns.

2. (B) Stall can handle Garg through regenerator cores such as Toxapex/Amoongus etc. It's easy enough to switch in a regen pokemon on a Salt Cure, threaten it with Surf/Giga Drain and scare it out without it forcing progress due to the regen healing. This is also will typically force it to Tera early, limiting the risk of unpredictable Teras. You'll know by turn 4/5 of the game what it's Tera is.

2. (C) Set-up sweepers that don't get 2/3HKO'd by Garg can use it as set-up fodder and 1v1 it. Physdef Magic Bounce Hatterene is particularly good at doing this. +1'd STAB Draining Kiss is all it takes to reliably 1v1 Garg, no matter what it Tera's to. You can also fish for Sp Def drops with Psychic. Curse + EQ is the only Garg set that has a chance against this, and even then, if you start boosting your Calms Minds before it starts boosting with Curse, you usually win the interaction. Also has the added bonus of preventing it from setting up Rocks.

2. (D) Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick go brrrrrrrrrrr. Gholdengo Make it Rain also yeets it. Also applies to Tera Water and Tera Fairy, respectively. Meowscarada is particuarly good at beating Garg due to the way Crits interact with ID/Curse.

3. I've seen Garg work on quite a few different archetypes. It works well as the most offensive pokemon on a hard stall team. It also works as either a physical or special wall and can fit on most balance and offense teams. I don't think it's particularly suited to Hyper Offense as it slows the game down too much.

4. I've tried standard, Tera Water, and Tera Ghost. I had the most success with Tera Water, but that's probably more due to the fact that Tera Water plugged the biggest hole in my team at the time. All things being equal, I find that Tera Fairy is one of the best overall Tera's for defensive utility, and Garg is no exception. However, I have a hard time recommending it because it still gets yeeted by Gholdengo. Ghost is nice for spinblocking, but others do it better (looking at you Ting-Lu) and it feels a bit like a waste of a Tera to me.

5. Curse + EQ is my favourite set. I started running it back when ID + Body Press was the norm, and its surprise factor let it hit really hard and beat things that people weren't used to it beating. Curse + EQ has gotten way more prominent since then, and also more understood, allowing teams to more easily play around it. The newest development I've seen is the Block set. This set is kind of a match-up fish. My current team matches up pretty well against it so I find this to be one of easiest set's to punish because it can't really force progress unless it Blocks the correct pokemon. However, this is definitely a set that can be more lethal in the hands of a good player than a bad one. I'd imagine this set will be a bigger problem on the higher ladder than the lower ladder. The Stealth Rock + Protect set is probably its most flexible. You can stick this on pretty much any team and it works. However, it gets shut down the hardest by Covert Cloak.

6. My controversial hot take is that ID + Body Press was never a good set. It was bad then and it is bad now. It takes too many turns to get going, it relies on your opponent only having physical attackers, it gets hard-walled by Ghosts, and even with max Sp Def investment it still gets OHKO'd by enough things that it's not smart to just sit in and Iron Defense 2/3 turns in a row. This is the easiest Garg set to punish imo.

7. I voted 5 on Shed Tail (eject it into the sun, it's always been the problem) and 5 on Volc (with the caveat that I only voted 5 on Volc because I personally dislike it, probably a 3 otherwise, annoying but fine)

Overall I don't think Garg is a problem. I don't even particularly think Tera makes it significantly worse to deal with. The Tera's I've seen the most are Water and Fairy, and both have crippling weaknesses to very common Pokemon. It doesn't want to be Knocked Off, and also doesn't have immunities to any entry hazards. Hazard Stack teams can wear it down pretty quickly, especially considering Gholdengo's matchup against Garg. It also can't be both max Physdef and Max Sp Def at the same time so once you've sussed which it is, you can hit it on the other side. It also can't be all Tera's at once. If it goes Tera Water to beat Gholdengo, it opens itself up to Meowscarada and Rotom-W can freely pivot around it. If it goes Tera Fairy, it gets yeeted by Gholdengo. Tera Ghost gives it a Knock-Off weakness.

I think the problem people have with Garg is that it can do so many different things. But, the fundamental reason I don't think it deserves action is because it can't do all of those things in the same set. And each set has weaknesses that can be exploited.

A couple calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl on a critical hit: 366-432 (90.5 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Water Garganacl on a critical hit: 366-432 (90.5 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl on a critical hit: 276-326 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 338-402 (83.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Garganacl: 338-402 (83.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 40 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery (19.8 - 23.5% recovered) - this calc doesn't look impressive, but in practice, it means you're recovering more health per turn than you're losing. You lose 12% per turn on Salt Cure while gaining 25-29% back between Draining Kiss and Leftovers. If it tries to stay in and 1v1 you, it just becomes set-up fodder for Hatterene. Its only chance of beating you is if it's Curse + EQ, but it can only win the interaction if it starts Curse-ing before you start Calm Mind-ing.

TL;DR Gholdengo/Meowscarada/Hatterene is the anti-Garg core you're looking for.

 

[Return to Zero]

Honestly, 420 speed (scarf jolly) is kinda bad in this meta considering it doesn't even outspeed jolly/timid Dragapult

Thoughts on Choice Band/Life Orb and Swift Swim sets?

 

[YNM]

Honestly, 420 speed (scarf jolly) is kinda bad in this meta considering it doesn't even outspeed jolly/timid Dragapult

If Last Respects is available you ain't running Scarf lol, you just slap a Band to Basculegion and pair it with Pelipper to wreack havoc in the tier. Swift Swim with a Jolly Nature lets it reach 560 Spe, which is enough to outspeed even Timid Regieleki.
Keep in mind that Houndstone had only 101 base Atk and 68 base Spe guys, if that was enough to get it banned in a meta where every Uber we banned from OU was legal then I don't see how Basculegion would get any problem doing the exact same thing. I'm 100% sure that even female Basculegion will be broken with a Band, since 92 base Atk is still solid when you have a 300 BP move with STAB.

 

[SpritePony]

Hello everyone; I'd be particularly interested in hearing your thoughts on Garganacl. Its effects on the OU metagame are fairly non-linear, which makes it a Pokemon that's less of an obviously oppressive entity in the metagame in comparison to past suspects. Because of this, there is much to be discussed.

If you'd like some place to start, try to answer some or all of the following:

1: What placement did you vote Garganacl in the latest tiering survey? Why?
2: What forms of defensive counterplay do you feel exist for it? How about offensive counterplay?
3: What Pokemon does Garganacl pair well with? How easily can it find itself on teams?
4: What are Garganacl's strongest Tera types in your opinion?
5: What sets do you feel are the strongest/most oppressive on Garganacl? Why?
6: What sets do you feel shouldn't really be considered as much? Why?
7: How pressing do you feel it is for Garganacl to be prioritized as an OU suspect in comparison to Shed Tail or Volcarona?

I'll add my thoughts to the fray later this weekend!

Not often do we see you posting. Nice to see another member of council asking some stuff.

1. I voted a 2 on Garg. Over time I've been punishing it more and more using the same strategies I always do; A Substitute user and a Covert Cloak bait. I just find it so easy for me to abuse with things that can lure it in, or just outpace and sub in its face.
2. Covert Cloak, Shed Tail, Substitute are my main ways of handling Garganacl. If Salt Cure doesn't go off, the best it can do is throw up Stealth Rocks or run. (I haven't ran into Block + Curse set yet.) Other than that, just nuking it with something hella strong like Gholdengo works. Depends upon the set.
3. I haven't built with Garg yet, so I can't say much to this effect.
4. Water with Covert Cloak is by and far its best set, IMO. Unless the Dengo carries TBolt (which mine does), you turn into a Dengo check immediately, and Dirge has a slightly harder time breaking you.
5. Considering how often I slap them with baits... Everything I can say here is purely on paper. Block + Curse sounds very scary to deal with, Block + Salt Cure in general sounds annoying as hell if you don't have Cloak or Sub. Everything else is kinda standard.
6. Honestly, IronPress. You're Dirge fodder with that set. Dirge Teras and Subs, now you can't break it and they can set up to however much they want.
7. Not very pressing, IMO. Shed Tail is honestly ridiculous and Volc can cause a number of issues.

 

[1LDK]

Thoughts on Choice Band/Life Orb and Swift Swim sets?

If Last Respects is available you ain't running Scarf lol, you just slap a Band to Basculegion and pair it with Pelipper to wreack havoc in the tier. Swift Swim with a Jolly Nature lets it reach 560 Spe, which is enough to outspeed even Timid Regieleki.
Keep in mind that Houndstone had only 101 base Atk and 68 base Spe guys, if that was enough to get it banned in a meta where every Uber we banned from OU was legal then I don't see how Basculegion would get any problem doing the exact same thing. I'm 100% sure that even female Basculegion will be broken with a Band, since 92 base Atk is still solid when you have a 300 BP move with STAB.

Didnt know it had swift swin never mind yeah of course we are getting lasts respects banned lmaoooo, its even worse than I imagined

 

[CharlyHunter98]

With only 3 days left to Pokemon Day (and probably HOME support date announce), do you think that is necessary any tiering action now? Only saying this because it would be funny if, for example, Shed Tail or Garg got banned and on Monday the announce thay HOME support is available at the end of the week. Wouldn't be better wait till Monday? Just asking

 

[1LDK]

With only 3 days left to Pokemon Day (and probably HOME support date announce), do you think that is necessary any tiering action now? Only saying this because it would be funny if, for example, Shed Tail or Garg got banned and on Monday the announce thay HOME support is available at the end of the week. Wouldn't be better wait till Monday? Just asking

We are waiting for home release date to see our options

But we are basically asuming worst case scenario because gamefreak is lazy and they love to make bad desicions

 

[Eeveeto]

I don't think any Tiering action is needed. Already talked about Shed Tail yesterday.

Regarding Garganacl: It has a terrible initial typing, pretty much forcing it to be the Tera Mon. This is similar to when you use otherwise trashmons like Glaceon and Frosmoth, who also needs Tera to work in OU. Of course, Garganacl has better Stats and movepool, better ability and better output as a result both pre and after Tera, but the point still stands: Garganacl severely limits the teams it founds itself in. Salt Cure is an extremely annoying move, so it more than makes up for the limitation, especially if we consider the 6 or 7 viable Tera types Garganacl can run. Then we have the Covert Cloak. It's true that without Garganacl this item would be ran way less, but it also true that it has other uses that are not Garganacl: Nuzzle and Mystical Fire Hatterene won't be annoying Covert Cloak Skeledirge. Pult and Gholdengo won't be dropping Corvi's Sdef Shadow Ball. You won't be getting any flinches and any freezes on any Mon that runs Covert Cloak. The item is much more than just for Garganacl, even if it's the main reason. And going back to Garg, unless he can bruteforce with Iron Defense + Body Press or with Curse + EQ the Covert Cloak Mon, it becomes useless, all that investment (mainly Tera) ends up in playing 5 Mons vs 6 (unless you manage to Knock specifically the Covert Cloak Mon and not it's 5 teammates). So, overall I think the negatives of using Garg, while don't outweight the positives, still prevent this Mon from being an unhealthy or broken Mon.

Regarding Volcarona, won't talk that much but my conclusion is pretty much the same: it's a high risk, high reward Mon. It will win some games on the spot, but will be very useless in others. I don't see anything problematic with it, although from the 3 controversial Mons (not counting Greninja here, I am the only one who wants action on it) it's by far the strongest and one I would defend the least.

 

[ant4456]

If Last Respects is available you ain't running Scarf lol, you just slap a Band to Basculegion and pair it with Pelipper to wreack havoc in the tier. Swift Swim with a Jolly Nature lets it reach 560 Spe, which is enough to outspeed even Timid Regieleki.
Keep in mind that Houndstone had only 101 base Atk and 68 base Spe guys, if that was enough to get it banned in a meta where every Uber we banned from OU was legal then I don't see how Basculegion would get any problem doing the exact same thing. I'm 100% sure that even female Basculegion will be broken with a Band, since 92 base Atk is still solid when you have a 300 BP move with STAB.

like to remind yall that again

basculegion last respects is the strongest move ever released in pokemon

this isn't a joke it's just true, it can literally 2HKO invested *Eternamax*, which basically has the max Base HP and Base Defense (255/250 bulk) possible in the entire game

Let's compare actually:

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus-Eternamax: 430-506 (60.2 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Poison Eternatus-Eternamax: 211-249 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 11.5% chance to 3HKO

Tera didn't exist with Dracovish, but even with Tera Water, its Fishious Rend isn't even close.

This isn't a "broken move", this is the most broken move of all-time. With the power to 2HKO shit that isn't even meant to be obtainable, with nearly maximum base stats possible.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 208 HP / 244+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 691-814 (110.5 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 568-669 (143 - 168.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 454-535 (117 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 464-548 (104.5 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course, this is Adamant Adaptability. There is also Swift Swim, which also still fucking kills everything, just with slight chip. This will lead to degen strategies even in Ubers where you attempt to lose Pelipper quickly to keep rain turns.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 413-487 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 208 HP / 244+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 614-724 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 248 HP / 72 Def Yveltal: 468-551 (102.8 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now, why am I using Ubers calcs? Because there is literally nothing in the OU tier that comes even close to walling it lol

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 634-746 (125.7 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only counterplay will be running Tera Normal on at least one Pokemon on your team, and trying to make sure it lives. So you don't get swept. A terrible Tera type with only one other relevant walling capability (Dragapult), which can be done better generally, ran 1 or even way more times to be safe, just to make sure you don't lose to this shit.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Ayo players.

Yesterday, a cool OU mod made a temporary chat room.
This room was created to have non-Terra gen 9 OU tournaments.
At it's peak we had about 15 players in the room and it was a lot of fun.

The mod said that if we get enough support, we can make a permanent room for players who are interested in this.

We're looking for two types of players:

1) Players who simply don't like the Terra gimmick.

2) Players who are curious to see what gen 9 would look like w/o Terra.

Personally, my reasoning is that you literally can't truly balance a Terra meta.
It can be fun, and I have no issue staying in the top 20 of the OU ladder, or at least top 50 on my worst days.
However, I would much rather just play normal pokemon...

Remember gen 8?
Kinda stale but really balanced.
It was held back by regen goofy shit, boots goofy shit, too much recovery PP, toxic and knock on everything, etc.

In gen 9 we have some really cool new mons, and a lot of those issues have been solved by GF.
Yet, we can't just play pokemon...

Anyway.

If you think Terra is fine and blah blah then that's perfectly okay, we can still use your support if you are interested to see what this generation would look like without the gimmick.

It's a simple command to ban terra, and even more simple to start a tour, which we did.
The room would also be a place to have friendly matches w/o Terra.

Also, before anyone says, "wait for Home!", I firmly believe Terra will never receive enough support for a ban.
I can get into the reasonings in depth on another post if needed but I want to keep this short.

The sooner we make a room for non-Terra, the better.

We're not attacking the community, we don't want to split the player base.
This would be a just for fun room, but a much needed one as well.

I'm also not looking for drama- if this doesn't interest you please just move along with your day, I will not be engaging with any weirdo replies.

Please like this post, message me, or respond with potential ideas if this concept of a non-terra room interests you!
I'll get with the mod and lay out exactly what we need to make this happen.
There are rooms on Showdown with about 15 active users, so even if there is only about 30 of us, we could probably make this happen!

 

[BolTingBlazie]

like to remind yall that again

basculegion last respects is the strongest move ever released in pokemon

this isn't a joke it's just true, it can literally 2HKO invested *Eternamax*, which basically has the max Base HP and Base Defense (255/250 bulk) possible in the entire game

Let's compare actually:

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus-Eternamax: 430-506 (60.2 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Poison Eternatus-Eternamax: 211-249 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 11.5% chance to 3HKO

Tera didn't exist with Dracovish, but even with Tera Water, its Fishious Rend isn't even close.

This isn't a "broken move", this is the most broken move of all-time. With the power to 2HKO shit that isn't even meant to be obtainable, with nearly maximum base stats possible.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 208 HP / 244+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 691-814 (110.5 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 568-669 (143 - 168.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 454-535 (117 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 464-548 (104.5 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course, this is Adamant Adaptability. There is also Swift Swim, which also still fucking kills everything, just with slight chip. This will lead to degen strategies even in Ubers where you attempt to lose Pelipper quickly to keep rain turns.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 413-487 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 208 HP / 244+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 614-724 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 248 HP / 72 Def Yveltal: 468-551 (102.8 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now, why am I using Ubers calcs? Because there is literally nothing in the OU tier that comes even close to walling it lol

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 634-746 (125.7 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only counterplay will be running Tera Normal on at least one Pokemon on your team, and trying to make sure it lives. So you don't get swept. A terrible Tera type with only one other relevant walling capability (Dragapult), which can be done better generally, ran 1 or even way more times to be safe, just to make sure you don't lose to this shit.

Also considering a move like that seems to make HISUIAN BASCULIN OF ALL THINGS INSANELY GOOD, yeah no shot Last Respects isn't getting banned

 

[viivian]

Of course, this is Adamant Adaptability. There is also Swift Swim, which also still fucking kills everything, just with slight chip. This will lead to degen strategies even in Ubers where you attempt to lose Pelipper quickly to keep rain turns.

you bring up pelipper as if kyogre isn't confirmed to be returning, which makes matters even worse. even if basculegion only had pelipper as a rain setter in ubers, it'd still be one of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. but now that it has an even better rain setter to work with, the likelihood of its team ensuring that kyogre's rain stays on the field for it to clean up late-game is very high due to how much new toys rain has gotten in ubers this gen. again, even with pelipper, basculegion would still be terrifying to face in ubers. but having such an incredible rain setter at your disposal makes the idea of facing it even scarier with the thought of kyogre being able to easily soften up the enemy team for basculegion to clean with LR, to say nothing of other rain abusers such as palafin, iron bundle and miraidon

 

[Chorenn]

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus-Eternamax: 430-506 (60.2 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[...]
Of course, this is Adamant Adaptability. There is also Swift Swim, which also still fucking kills everything, just with slight chip. This will lead to degen strategies even in Ubers where you attempt to lose Pelipper quickly to keep rain turns.

Also, unless I'm misunderstanding something about Revival Blessing, your calc of Basculegion vs (Non-Tera) Eternamax becomes funnier when you factor in using it at least once (502-592 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Running Swift Swim instead puts it at 446-526 (62.4 - 73.6%), which makes up for the lack of Adaptability at 5 KO's.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Ayo players.

Yesterday, a cool OU mod made a temporary chat room.
This room was created to have non-Terra gen 9 OU tournaments.
At it's peak we had about 15 players in the room and it was a lot of fun.

The mod said that if we get enough support, we can make a permanent room for players who are interested in this.

We're looking for two types of players:

1) Players who simply don't like the Terra gimmick.

2) Players who are curious to see what gen 9 would look like w/o Terra.

Personally, my reasoning is that you literally can't truly balance a Terra meta.
It can be fun, and I have no issue staying in the top 20 of the OU ladder, or at least top 50 on my worst days.
However, I would much rather just play normal pokemon...

Remember gen 8?
Kinda stale but really balanced.
It was held back by regen goofy shit, boots goofy shit, too much recovery PP, toxic and knock on everything, etc.

In gen 9 we have some really cool new mons, and a lot of those issues have been solved by GF.
Yet, we can't just play pokemon...

Anyway.

If you think Terra is fine and blah blah then that's perfectly okay, we can still use your support if you are interested to see what this generation would look like without the gimmick.

It's a simple command to ban terra, and even more simple to start a tour, which we did.
The room would also be a place to have friendly matches w/o Terra.

Also, before anyone says, "wait for Home!", I firmly believe Terra will never receive enough support for a ban.
I can get into the reasonings in depth on another post if needed but I want to keep this short.

The sooner we make a room for non-Terra, the better.

We're not attacking the community, we don't want to split the player base.
This would be a just for fun room, but a much needed one as well.

I'm also not looking for drama- if this doesn't interest you please just move along with your day, I will not be engaging with any weirdo replies.

Please like this post, message me, or respond with potential ideas if this concept of a non-terra room interests you!
I'll get with the mod and lay out exactly what we need to make this happen.
There are rooms on Showdown with about 15 active users, so even if there is only about 30 of us, we could probably make this happen!

Idk why it hasn't been implemented sooner.

We've had and offered concepts of split ladders for various mechanics (at one point there was even a split stealth rocks/scald ladder), considering how controversial tera is as a concept, you'd think that would be attempted as a 'everyone wins' solution, or alternatively it acts as a proper suspect ladder showing what the game would be like without tera (which IMO is why the tera suspect was poorly done cause everyone was pure theorymon on what banning it would do.)

The only problem would be lower tiers choosing which is the official ruleset since its pretty much a cointoss on which ladder they tier by.