Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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mothra_moth said:
what kind of looney tunes ass metagame is this where we can seriously discuss offensive smeargle? the pokemon with 20 base attack? who's highest stat is 75 speed? im serious, what even IS this metagame, is this the gen where we see the rise of shit like offensive chansey?
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we're only discussing it because it has newly gained access to an effectively 250-power stab move. even base 20 attack can do things with that after a +2 boost

although if this actually works we would need to have a serious discussion about banning sleep moves altogether, because smeargle's access to spore is the only thing allowing it to theoretically pull this nonsense off
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
we're only discussing it because it has newly gained access to an effectively 250-power stab move. even base 20 attack can do things with that after a +2 boost

although if this actually works we would need to have a serious discussion about banning sleep moves altogether, because smeargle's access to spore is the only thing allowing it to theoretically pull this nonsense off
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Bro, if Dire Claw isn’t getting people to discuss Sleep Clause, then Set Up Sweeper Smeargle fucking won’t for sure. Not only is it on a good Pokemon, it also does drastically change Showdown play from Cart play, as cart players can’t spam Dire Claw.
Smeargle would just be Maushold with Spore but significantly worse stats. Adamant Smeargle at +2 is still weaker than Jolly Maushold after Tidy Up.
 
Smeargle with a Shell Smash outspeeds Maushold after Tidy Up (546 vs 529 with Jolly Natures) and Smeargle's Power Trip is stronger than Maushold's Bite, but Maushold has a more powerful Population Bomb.

+2 252 Atk Technician Smeargle Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Manaphy: 310-370 (76.7 - 91.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Manaphy: 420-490 (103.9 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Smeargle Power Trip (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Manaphy: 92-109 (22.7 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Manaphy: 80-95 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Maushold has the advantages of a much stronger Population Bomb and Tidy Up clearing hazards, but Smeargle has the advantages of Spore, being stronger against Ghosts, and "WTF? Offensive Smeargle?!" Hate to be a killjoy, but it's probably a gimmick in OU because Maushold is also a gimmick. That said, it's a hilarious gimmick that's hard to say no to trying because sweeping with a base 20 Attack is unbelievable.
Ehmcee said:
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I think revival blessing is kind of a bad move, and pawmot is an infinitely better user of it than smeargle will ever be
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No matter how bad it is and no matter how many tries it takes to get the perfect match, someone is going to have a really crazy replay with Revival Blessing with Recycle+Leppa Berry and it's going to be glorious.

I can't wait for Smeargle replays.
 
CTNC said:
Hate to be a killjoy, but it's probably a gimmick in OU because Maushold is also a gimmick.
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to be fair, maushold is a gimmick largely because of how difficult it is to safely set up (and the fact that its coverage is kinda weak). smeargle has spore, which makes it way easier to generate setup turns, and power trip, which gets quite strong after a single shell smash and incredibly strong after two. also, it can spore things it can't immediately kill, meaning that a lot of mons that can sponge a hit from it won't be able to hit back much of the time unless the opponent is playing around spore properly, which requires them to win the prediction game. yes, the set is probably going to be a gimmick set, but smeargle does maushold's gimmick better than maushold does and isn't a one-trick pony. smeargle is very likely to at least be on the vr this gen because of the amount of good utility moves that either had their distribution cut (defog, toxic) or have been introduced since the last time smeargle existed (court change, salt cure, mortal spin, tidy up, revival blessing)
 
I wouldn't call Maushold a gimmick - it's actually pretty good if you can get it in safely. Tidy Up is one of the best setup moves in the game - in SV OU, it's arguably the best setup move since it clears entry hazards - and Maushold at +1 has just enough offense to be dangerous.


+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 330-390 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO

Gliscor gets wrecked.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 214-252 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With hazards up, the only Gholdengo that can safely switch in is Scarf, which will outspeed and OHKO back with Make it Rain; any other set (except the defensive sets) gets outspeed and 2HKO'd, and the defensive sets eat a 3HKO while they cannot 2HKO back.

252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 240-280 (47.6 - 55.5%) -- approx. 60.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 236-278 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The fattest of fatties is not a safe switch in, because Population Bomb is bonkers and Body Press doesn't OHKO.


The problem is coming in safely; 74/70/75 is enough to avoid most OHKOs, but you'll be 2HKO'd by almost every relevant offensive mon, so either you come in on the setup move and threaten an Encore, or all you can do is Tidy Up to clear hazards and die. The inability to wear HDB means that Maushold has problems coming in more than once to clear hazards unless it's being backed by Wish support, too; it's not like you're going to carry another hazard remover, after all.
 
Alternator said:
I wouldn't call Maushold a gimmick - it's actually pretty good if you can get it in safely. Tidy Up is one of the best setup moves in the game - in SV OU, it's arguably the best setup move since it clears entry hazards - and Maushold at +1 has just enough offense to be dangerous.


+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 330-390 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO

Gliscor gets wrecked.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 214-252 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With hazards up, the only Gholdengo that can safely switch in is Scarf, which will outspeed and OHKO back with Make it Rain; any other set (except the defensive sets) gets outspeed and 2HKO'd, and the defensive sets eat a 3HKO while they cannot 2HKO back.

252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 240-280 (47.6 - 55.5%) -- approx. 60.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 236-278 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The fattest of fatties is not a safe switch in, because Population Bomb is bonkers and Body Press doesn't OHKO.


The problem is coming in safely; 74/70/75 is enough to avoid most OHKOs, but you'll be 2HKO'd by almost every relevant offensive mon, so either you come in on the setup move and threaten an Encore, or all you can do is Tidy Up to clear hazards and die. The inability to wear HDB means that Maushold has problems coming in more than once to clear hazards unless it's being backed by Wish support, too; it's not like you're going to carry another hazard remover, after all.
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maushold is unquestionably a gimmick mon by my definition of it—a pokemon with a wacky zany unique quirk trait of some sort that gives it a competitive role nothing else can perform and which is high-risk-high-reward to use, whether or not it's actually good. for example, i consider ditto to be a gimmick mon even though it's actually quite good in some tiers, and shedinja is a gimmick mon even though it's banned from natdex this gen, because even though the reward for using them is massive it comes with a high risk, but gholdengo is not a gimmick mon, because even though it has a unique ability that lets it block defog, it's too low-risk to count as a gimmick. i'm sure other people define the term differently and that's fine if you do, but i would prefer if these more nebulous terms were standardized so everyone could be on the same page when referring to "gimmick mons"
 
:tangrowth: *BONK* :ogerpon-wellspring:

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 146-172 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

Also, I'm glad my smeargle set got some traction haha. I cant see it being any worse than maushold, same shit different smell. for both pokemon to work you need to do some legwork early game. Brace yourself for offfensive smeargle getting a D+ rank on ou viability
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
So, now that we've cooled down with Bloodmoon's banning, it's probably worth looking at the other six candidates we established for suspect tests:
  1. Kingambit
  2. Iron Valiant
  3. Gholdengo
  4. Manaphy
  5. Ogerpon-Wellspring
  6. Gliscor
Working under the assumption that we have about 1-2 months until DLC2 drops, who do you guys think we should look at next?
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Look, 6 suspects instead of suspecting tera. Efficient. I'd choose this if I were payed hourly as a Smogon staff in charge of tiering, however, I'm not.
 
After using it to get past the 1500s for the first time ever, I present to you
BRELOOM :sv/Breloom:
I think y'all are seriously underestimating this thing. You probably know what it does on paper, at least: Spore + Stronk attacks, but I think people underestimate how seriously strong its attacks are. It finds a reasonable amount of setup opportunities due to grass/fighting's underrated resistances (dark, ground, rock, water), and once it's set up, there is NO defensive counterplay, none. Toxapex? 87.5% chance to OHKO with Loaded Dice Boolet Seed. Gliscor? 65~% chance to OHKO, and its best option is to toxic and try to protect around the attacks while you can just SD on those turns. Gholdengo? Bulldoze. Dragapult? 75% OHKO. Fully physical defensive clefable? 2HKO'd even with unaware and 4 hits, and OHKO'd at +2. Dondozo? Guaranteed 3HKO once Tera'd, loses if it switches into the wrong move. Glowking? Fully defensive set is 2HKO'd with bullet seed, not even accounting for bulldoze. Dragonite is the only thing that really walls it, as multiscale and espeed mean that it can survive rock tomb and hit back. Offense dies so hard to its mach punch too. Notably Ogerpon and offensive Ace are non-weak pokemon that are OHKO'd. It's power is really ridiculous. However, Breloom is still frail, pretty slow, and can't fit all its coverage, right? Well, yes, but I feel like people forget that it gets Spore. Picture this scenario: you've just gotten breloom in on a gliscor. Gliscor knows that breloom is really friggin scary if it sets up, so it switches to Enamorus, which Breloom can't OHKO with any unboosted attack sans Rock Tomb. If you spore that Enamorus on the turn it switches in, well, not only have you bought yourself a free turn to setup, you've removed probably the opponent's counterplay to breloom, as most teams don't pack more than 1 thing that can really defensively counter Loom. Tera also allows this to work even more effectively. Breloom SDs on the enam switchin, Teras Steel to survive moonblast, spores the enam, and now you're left with a +2 Breloom with a free turn, which I don't need to tell you is super scary. This set fits very well on Hyper Offense teams, where the slept pokemon can be exploited by another teammate even if Breloom dies. Breloom also fits very well on Veil and Webs teams, which both patch up an aspect of its weaknesses, either bulk or speed. +1 speed breloom has the ability to spam bullet seed instead of mach punch, which claims significantly more kills, and breloom behind veil often gets the opportunity to setup to +4 at which point the non-resistant checks to mach punch just... vanish.

Sorry for the long-ass post but I really wanted to get that out there. Use Breloom!
 
All this discussion about power-creep is making we wonder a pretty fundamental question - What is a well-balanced Pokemon? What exactly constitutes a mon which is strong enough to where it is worth using in battle and not just collecting dust on your PC, and not so broken that it breaks the entire game in half and forces the meta to revolve around it?

I dunno, I think a question like that is worth thinking about.
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
All this discussion about power-creep is making we wonder a pretty fundamental question - What is a well-balanced Pokemon? What exactly constitutes a mon which is strong enough to where it is worth using in battle and not just collecting dust on your PC, and not so broken that it breaks the entire game in half and forces the meta to revolve around it?

I dunno, I think a question like that is worth thinking about.
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I think this part is the most important. Characteristics that make a mon meta-warping vary by generation (Ghosts have far more potential for this in current gen, Dragons and weather abusers had it in BW, and so on), but mons that fall into this category all have the same characteristic of forcing either unviable mons or mons that don't fit on most team styles onto every team/style. Well-balanced mons can be powerful or have the chance to sweep (although how easily that sweep happens can be the dividing line between fine and broken; Bax, Gambit, and Valiant pre-HOME all required one turn of setup to rip through entire teams, for example), but they still have counterplay that is readily available and viable.
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
All this discussion about power-creep is making we wonder a pretty fundamental question - What is a well-balanced Pokemon? What exactly constitutes a mon which is strong enough to where it is worth using in battle and not just collecting dust on your PC, and not so broken that it breaks the entire game in half and forces the meta to revolve around it?

I dunno, I think a question like that is worth thinking about.
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Probably something that offers something new, unique or is genuinaly great, without restricting team building. I think a perfect example is skeledirge, because while it is uu, it can do quite well in ou. This can be seen in ubers where it is number 9 in usage. It's great and is something that has to be accounted for, but you don't instantly lose to if you don't have a specific answer. TLDR, if a bunch of pokemon can emergency check the pokemon.
 
Alternator said:
252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 240-280 (47.6 - 55.5%) -- approx. 60.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 236-278 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The fattest of fatties is not a safe switch in, because Population Bomb is bonkers and Body Press doesn't OHKO.
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To be fair, if Dondozo is running a rocky helmet, then Maushold kills itself with a population bomb. The same goes for the matchup against corv, amoonguss, and other common rocky helmet users.
 
As I said a week ago, I think we have to wait for DLC 2 to suspect test Gholdengo (but also Gliscor).
The DLC will arrive in a time that seems close and we do not yet know if we will get Defog back as a TM.
 
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