Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Guyoftheego]

Honestly, what if Smogon adopted open sheet for their default formats? It would help immensely against certain top threats because you're no longer just guessing what options they have.
I'd prefer if Smogon just dropped the cart accuracy rule they have (except when they don't intentionally) and decided to tweak the game just a bit for balance reasons, but I know no one wants to admit that it'd solve a lot of problems.

This doesn't really fix it on ladder, unfortunately, and tournament play is not the only form of play we need to worry about.

The cart accuracy rule isnt because Smogon doesn't want to fix problems, it's because the more you modify cart mechanics the less you're actually playing SV. Frankly Sleep Clause being a thing the way it is is a little ridiculous to me as is rather than just banning the mechanic.

 

[artificialdeath]

Honestly, what if Smogon adopted open sheet for their default formats? It would help immensely against certain top threats because you're no longer just guessing what options they have.
I'd prefer if Smogon just dropped the cart accuracy rule they have (except when they don't intentionally) and decided to tweak the game just a bit for balance reasons, but I know no one wants to admit that it'd solve a lot of problems.

Effects on the meta (and especially tournaments) aside, this would only work for a select few things like Valiant where their brokenness is directly tied to how many sets they can run. Gambit has a few options, but it's straightforward overall. Waterpon has some variance, but it only has a few switch-ins even if you know what it's running. The hazard issue still exists with Ghold around.

 

[ant4456]

I don't agree that the Council has made no mistakes in tiering the metagame.

Almost all of its actions have been reactionary, in the sense that they only have been done in response to the community, rather than also doing action with the intent of pushing the community towards the Council's direction. That is not to say that the Council should make decisions, but there are even minor decisions made by the Council that prove this.

For one, Pokemon included on surveys: Gholdengo not being on the last survey was immediately pointed out by many (including me) to be strange. And that is something that feels like a failure of proactive action, you are looking for data on only the Pokemon that you have heard recently. Another strange action is deciding to spend 1/4th of the entire HOME metagame, simply, doing nothing. In one way, the logic makes sense: A lot of it could be unbanned in a month, this could be a waste of time!

Except that some of the Pokemon were problematic for reasons that are not very standard in usual tiers. Simply being able to see the positive/negative impacts of a Pokemon on one metagame, 100% can shed some light on the differences in another. I know you will disagree with this, but there's a reason that Pokemon like Landorus-I haven't been in the tier yet. Because it's a waste of time and we all know it makes tiers worse... So it's time to put some of these shaky Gen 9 Pokemon onto the stand and figure out what ones are simply metagame dependent problems, and which ones are probably going to be Ubers for a few more.

There is a balance to be had because the Council has made assumptions about how people feel, without doing say, a proactive Suspect Test to get more active thoughts on this. And I am not going to imply this is something that the Council has never done, for instance, regardless of the result I think the Walking Wake Suspect Test was a good idea. But we have hit this trend where a Pokemon is seen as broken for a month, then goes down, then comes back, over and over and over; you can argue part of this is the DLC changes, I'd argue part of it is simply the nature of the Pokemon themselves.

Sometimes certain types of Pokemon are just unhealthy for a tier, even if it isn't necessarily "broken" by standard conception. Many believe that Gen 9 National Dex is a broken tier because of Terastilization, to a degree I believe this true, but I also believe that unless it banned, deadass, around 10+ Pokemon on top of Terastilization, it would never be a consistently good tier. Because you have this revolving door of unhealthy threats that make teambuilding impossible.

If Roaring Moon gets banned, another will just take its place. If Gliscor gets banned, Ting-Lu will just rise up in its place. We are in this situation because we, in my opinion, were never proactive enough to even get rid of the quickban worthy Pokemon. You may say, but there isn't much support for that right now? That's what happens when you keep Pokemon that are only a little over the edge of broken in the tier for a year. It's a little embarassing that a Pokemon like Chien-Pao needed a suspect test. Let alone was tried again in HOME.

That's the type of tiering that in my opinion holds this tier back. Y'all are too resistant to giving the community via suspects the actual means to see what is fine and what is not. So many Suspect Tests this generation are Pokemon that should have been quickbanned frankly, I mean look at Ursaluna-Bloodmoon. Hell, "bla bla 2/5 survey", I don't give a shit! In a case like that, where basically anyone who knew the tier understood that Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was broken, just quickban it! I know that I and a lot of players straight up stopped playing during that suspect, because it made the meta and teambuilding that bad.

I am excited for this upcoming Suspect Test because it is the first time in a while that it feels like the Council is bringing their issues to the playerbase, rather than bringing the playerbase's issues to them, taking a week, then processing it and making a Suspect Test for weeks, and then we get a better game. There is no Pokemon right now where most people I know agree it's an unstoppable menace that ruins teambuilding or something, this is the Council taking a proactive step. And I truly hope this type of thing continues, make Suspect Tests without the need of the entire community giving support. Isn't half the point that a Suspect Test is where the experienced community members vote? If we trust them in that way, then we can run ones like this.

 

[Finchinator]

It's a little embarassing that a Pokemon like Chien-Pao needed a suspect test. Let alone was tried again in HOME.

Chien-Pao barely got banned during the community suspect, so this take is just bad. I’m tired of the revisionist history nonsense.

This isn’t even to mention that the post was very clearly discussing the current metagame, specifically on post-DLC. I’ve admitted multiple times over that Wake and Volc needed different judgement to be applied, and we have since taken steps to eliminate the error incurred there by reforming the process.

Perhaps don’t take one line in an attempt at being transparent and take it out of context. I appreciate that you care and value your insight, but this was a cheap shot.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Honestly, what if Smogon adopted open sheet for their default formats? It would help immensely against certain top threats because you're no longer just guessing what options they have.
I'd prefer if Smogon just dropped the cart accuracy rule they have (except when they don't intentionally) and decided to tweak the game just a bit for balance reasons, but I know no one wants to admit that it'd solve a lot of problems.

so, what's good about this suggestion is that it isn't quite as ludicrous as "we should be able to copyright teams because prepping for things is bad grr". the only thing bad about it is everything else

 

[Heatranator]

It's a little embarassing that a Pokemon like Chien-Pao needed a suspect test. Let alone was tried again in HOME.

Although I personally didn't think that Chien pao should have been restested, it does make sense. Trying to say that the council should make the decisions based on their thoughts will not work out in the long run. It will give the view that smogon is not a democracy, which will push away a lot of potential players. If the Chien pao suspect was close then it makes sense that it should have been a community suspect because people were devisive.
This is why for example despite my thoughts that tera is absolutely broken and should be limited in some form, I do not support the council doing this without a suspect test. It would lose a lot of the casual playerbase and remember, Pokemon showdown is free to play and is not officialy supported. We have to keep in mind this crowd and not drive them away by decisions that look scummy, which is why kingambit suspect also has to wait.

And yes, the council will make mistakes, they are just humans, but we have to accept their trying their best while having to deal with the hand Gamefreak gave us and not driving away too many players.

 

[Red Raven]

Yeah, I am thinking SD with Liquidation or Tera Blast Ice both have the potential to be decent. Liquidation seems a bit better to me because it isn't as Tera reliant, but nailing Gliscor and Grass-Types like Rillaboom are a nice benefit of Tera Blast Ice. I saw Blimax's recent video and Tera Ice Garchomp was able to put in work there. Makes sense since its basically Baxcalibur at home lol.

Also, while its certainly less effective with Gliscor in the tier, Chainchomp is still scary to come across for non-Gliscor teams. It deals massive damage to most standard EQ switchins with Draco and Fire Blast, making it scary for slower teams.

Tera Ice? Is that on physical sets? I imagine this would be better on mixed or special sets since the stuff that checks Garchomp are mostly physical anyway

---

And about that Garchomp set, from my using it thus far, it needing tera doesn't seem to be that much of a big deal since I'm experimenting with tera poison right now. I partner it with Kingambit and because tera poison Garchomp with liquidation can easily lure in and destroy all three of Great Tusk, Gliscor, and Valiant, meaning Gambit won't need to use tera itself. Having said that, it is very dangerous to tera poison after using scale shot or sd against a Valiant due to a possible encore and it does get tricky if Garchomp can't find the opening to boost up. I'll have to see what else can be done about that part

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Tera Ice? Is that on physical sets? I imagine this would be better on mixed or special sets since the stuff that checks Garchomp are mostly physical anyway

---

And about that Garchomp set, from my using it thus far, it needing tera doesn't seem to be that much of a big deal since I'm experimenting with tera poison right now. I partner it with Kingambit and because tera poison Garchomp with liquidation can easily lure in and destroy all three of Great Tusk, Gliscor, and Valiant, meaning Gambit won't need to use tera itself. Having said that, it is very dangerous to tera poison after using scale shot or sd against a Valiant due to a possible encore and it does get tricky if Garchomp can't find the opening to boost up. I'll have to see what else can be done about that part

i wonder if tera ice chomp could fit on a veil team. between the tripled defense and rough skin, there's some serious defensive potential to couple with the solid offensive prowess of ice/ground stab. it's like mamoswine but bad

 

[x MAD AXES x]

If a mon on the next tiering survey has a high enough rating that it is a problem would it be QB or just an immediate suspect?

 

[dragonbr]

View attachment 561599

Manaphy seems like the biggest problem child. Some teams legit just lead it, acid armor+take heart, scald, stored power. Would be “checks” don’t like being burned, and definitely dont like taking +6 x 3 stored power even if they are unaware. Gliscor seems fine, there wasn’t much in the tier like it before, so it feels like the overall massive prep change that gliscor caused wasn’t as bad as and in fact the spikes sets in my experience aren’t as good as the stall ones, being able to endgame as good as Kingambit through poison heal and knock+protect+toxic+eq. Moon is definitely INSANE, knock does so much damage, scarf is good, Booster is good, sub DD or scale shot is good, the mon just does what everybody wants garchomp to do and then some. Its so bulky, it hits absurdly hard, its super fast, and its amount of viable moves and sets is crazy. The problem I see with any action against Moon is after that, what keeps Ghold in check. Gambit is not what it used to be, right now Moon is the best dark type attacker, and without it, Ghold can just run wild. Not much else has stab Knock+ access to EQ, and be able to set up that fast, with that much speed and bulk and attack. Water-Pon just hits one SD and wins. Its kinda BS. Also its typing makes it so hard to fight that it will get off the SD.

 

[NabboCheTesta]

Time to pose as the tiering council! .

When used properly invariably warps every game he's in into a painful endgame of 50/50s. Tera Dark is especially scary because -as the Valiant calc that was posted above shows- it can fold Dark resists with hazard chip and a single free turn.

has gained a bit too much versatility with Knock Off in my experience. The only awkwardness to it is that if it wants to run Booster Energy it cannot do the "click Knock Off, switch out, come back later" trick quite as well asit wants, but once its switch-in (usually there tends to be only one in a team) is itemless and chipped something else can come along afterwards. And of course, many times it can threaten a sweep by its lonesome as always -especially now that it has a real STAB-.

is quite annoying to face in a battle too, but IMO the issue is at the meta level.
To be viable, a hazards denial set must be able to circumvent its presence or needs to be able to 1v1 it and outlast it over the course of a game, which heavily limits the available options and compounds the problem.
And of course, even being able to remove it over the game won't stop the hazards from generating a huge amount of value while it's still in play, especially in fast paced games where oftentimes it only needs to deny removal one or two times to put the team in a winning position.

I don't think would be as much of an issue if the hazards meta wasn't the mess it is right now. yomaalt did a great job at explaining the issue, it can dump multiple layers of spikes the moment it isn't under threat of immediately fainting and those tend to stick there with Gholdengo being around and the viable hazard denial often simply losing the 1v1 vs Gliscor, nevermind an attrition war vs a mon that doesn't care about Knock Off, is immune to Spikes and heals 12.5% every turn by existing on the field.

is a pain to deal with with every team I played. It hits like a truck with it stabs, and the rest of the set are fundamentally flex slots. Between a fairly fast Encore and Taunt, Knock Off, decent coverage with the likes of Play Rough and Low Kick, setup with Swords Dance and Trailblaze and even some more fringe options like Spikes, it can pick and choose to surprise its checks.
However, I feel that this might be more of a skill issue on my side. It only having one possible item and only a single Tera option look like blind spots that a better player than I am will be able to exploit.

Take Heart is IMO way too good at taking advantage of generally passsive opponents. The fast paced nature of the meta is somewhat keeping it in check but the moment things slow down a bit I think it'll be blatantly too much.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If a mon on the next tiering survey has a high enough rating that it is a problem would it be QB or just an immediate suspect?

depends on how high the rating is. if something scores as crazy high as bax (it won't), it'd probably be qb'd. i don't know if there's a specific concrete threshold for the average survey score that determines what kind of tiering action the council takes

 

[Bakugames]

depends on how high the rating is. if something scores as crazy high as bax (it won't), it'd probably be qb'd. i don't know if there's a specific concrete threshold for the average survey score that determines what kind of tiering action the council takes

needs to be above 4 or 4.2 for it to be considered for a qb, iirc?

 

[Heatranator]

You know what, since a few people are posting their views on potential problem mons, I might throw my hat in the ring.

This is the most disgusting pokemon I have ever seen. Not only is it amazing at at stage of a match, but it can force 50/50s which I especially dislike. Once we are able to suspect it again, I definately hoped it gets banned. It forces very awkward plays and can easily determine the game. Even if we were able to ban supreme overlord I don't think it would solve the issue, as defiant still would allow it to get more switch ins. 5/5

Wow, this mon has had a rollercoaster of a generation. From being banworthy, to UUBL, to banworthy again. Knock off gives it a spammable tool that allows it to wear down checks and also as a great dark stab. I would personally wait a bit before banning this mon to see where it heads and if it is still dominant after the indigo disk. 4/5

These two pokemon I've grouped together as I believe banning one will make the other far more managable. Gholdengo makes hazard removal extremely hard and forces many teams to be constricted to removers that beat it reliably, which are few. However, it does serve as a good defensive presence but good as gold is just too meta warping. Meanwhile, gliscor is the premium hazard setter/wall in the tier. I believe the main issue is that it can so reliably set t spikes and threaten most pokemon that want to remove them or are immune with toxic, e-quake or knock. It is just too reliable at it's job. If I had to choose one, I would say gholdengo first as it keeps hazards on the field too reliably but I wouldn't complain if gliscor is banned instead. 5/5

This mon is definetly a problem. The only reason why this isn't my top ban choice is that without it, manaphy becomes even more stupid. Although its limited in item choice and tera, the additional 20% boost to damage and sp def boost from tera makes this mon do disgusting things. Definetely should be a mon looked at after the other bans before it. 4/5

Remember when we said that take heart wasn't good? IMO this thing can either snowball games or be outsped and contribute nothing, but it's always done this. If wellspring is banned, this could get out of control. The double dance set is definetly scary but I haven't faced many manaphys so I don't have a clear opinion on this. 3/5

Honourable mentions

This mon has been broken since launch but it's on the lower end. If the metagame settles down, then I do think this should be looked at.

I know that this will probably not be as good as wellspring, but I could see it rising up to take some of wellspring's positions if it is banned, just like when hearthflame was banned.

 

[SDK03]

- Everyone already knows what makes this thing a borderline Ubers mon (power, bulk, Supreme Overlord, Sucker Punch) and being able to use Tera just makes it outright broken. Still on the side of seeing this thing go even though it looks cool asf.

- Annoying, but kind of manageable. Haven’t fought this thing enough for me to really think too much of its power, but I’d say it could be worth taking a look at after dealing with other things first.

- This guy feels like a repeat of Baxcalibur where it started UUBL in the gen before gaining one new tool in the DLC that pushed it over the edge (Knock Off). I’ve been feeling the constraint this thing puts on team-building pretty recently with how specially bulky and fast it is to prevent revenge killers like Valiant and Moth from gimping it in any way. Definitely worth taking a look at.

- After thinking about it for a bit, Gholdengo is DEFINITELY the biggest issue when it comes to the problems with hazards. Just its existence alone pretty much invalidates Corviknight and most other forms of removal thanks to being immune to Rapid Spin and makes hazards much harder to remove than they really should be. If Gholdengo didn’t exist, then I’d say Gliscor would be a legitimately healthy presence overall and wouldn’t be worth complaining about that much. It’s more of the massive effect on the metagame by itself that makes Gholdengo broken rather than Gholdengo itself. People were even complaining about Samurott-Hisui before Gliscor came along because of how Gholdengo allows it to just completely abuse Ceaseless Edge. I’d even say suspecting Gholdengo should be prioritized due to how ridiculous of an effect it has had so far.

- As said above, a meta without Gholdengo would make this thing a healthy presence within the meta. With Gholdengo on the other hand and I can fully understand why people wouldn’t want it here.

It’s a very very slightly toned down version of Hearthflame that has a better defensive profile. Also worth taking a good look at overall.

:Terastal: - It has been beaten to death, but this mechanic honestly does not have a good effect on things at all. Takes already borderline threats like the ones everyone complains about now and makes them even stronger, and literally breaks the idea of “checks” and “counters”. Manaphy should not be able to set up on Rillaboom. A Bisharp evolution shouldn’t be able to completely paste Great Tusk and Zamazenta. Just take it out behind the tree and send it to Ubers at this point.

 

[Srn]

Hey all,

Meta sucks. Reason #1 is Tera, but you already knew that. I'm gonna take some time to talk about the second reason.



I find Gliscor very strong, but also unhealthy and centralizing in a way that no other mon has really done in this gen so far. Ultimately it is so good at what it does that it is LIMITING, both to your opponent and to your own team.

1) Gliscor's counterplay is pretty slim

I've whined before about the Eq/Toxic/spikes/protect set here (henceforth called the "Bastard"), but lemme recap rq. Great Tusk and Cinderace are the best forms of hazard control we have, and Gliscor has a strong matchup vs both. If Great Tusk doesn't have Ice Spinner, Gliscor can facetank knock off/stabs easily, Toxic to cut off Bulk Up, and set another Spike after Great Tusk uses Rapid Spin, ensuring that hazard control has essentially failed. Cinderace is no better, with Pyro Ball bouncing off Gliscor and Wisp being blocked, Spikes go up after a Court Change and hazard control has also failed.

To begin with, Gliscor's absurd survivability and utility in status absorbing was already good, and Earthquake+Toxic was already effective at making progress. To account for Spikes on top of that forces you to either run Ice Spinner Great Tusk (bulky) offense, "Superman" hazard proof teams, or full on HO with Mortal Spin Glimmora/Taunt Rockpon or Meow to ensure Gliscor cannot just get up layers at lead.

Think you can get away with some cool bulky offense/balance as long as you have both Great Tusk and Cinderace? Just look at this depressing battle. My opponent brings a solid but not hazardproof team with both Tusk+Ace, makes no major chokes (I would say outplays me more often than not) and yet still loses the battle with max layers up against them. If anybody isn't convinced of the power of the Bastard Gliscor, please watch.

Even assuming you have a gameplan vs spikes, stopping Gliscor from making easy progress vs a team forces you to run a small set of pokemon (if you want to avoid shitmons). Stuff like balloon gholdengo, balloon heatran, corviknight, or your own SD Gliscor are some of the few ways you can block the standard set from slowly chipping your team down without allowing Gliscor to set Spikes for free. Even mons like Clefable or Tera Garg, while tanking EQ+Toxic, are gonna let Spikes go up for free. Not gonna include mons like Tera Poison Levitate Cress bc like I've said in the past, requiring Tera to check a mon that hasn't Tera'd puts you at a massive disadvantage.

I mean look at this shit, my opponent at 1888 had BALLOON DRAGAPULT. No doubt it was sub dd to set up on Bastard Gliscor. That's fucked, man.

Here's where it gets kinda complicated

2) If you decide to use Bastard Gliscor, your OWN teambuilding choices are also slim

The problem with running the most oppressive Gliscor set is the mirror matchup. If you are using the bastard set and you happen to fight the bastard set, then both of these bastards get free Spikes vs each other. Perfect example of this would be an SCL match from week 3, xavgb vs Nat, just look at the opening few turns. Whenever you decide to use Bastard gliscor, you must be prepared to fight under 3 layers of spikes on both sides. This kind of dynamic between Gliscors forces teams to go Superman style and fully hazard proof themselves, consistent hazard removal that can reliably remove max layers multiple times a match simply doesn't exist this generation.

This is a big problem, because Superman teams are very limited in how they can be built. Requiring every team member to hold boots or be at least neutral to rocks+immune to spikes is a very tall order. You can't have a team of just Gliscor Corv Clef and Hawlucha or whatever, so your choices have to actually be GOOD pokemon while holding boots. You wanna use something like Azumarill? Too bad, that mon is dogshit without Band/AV to boost its stats or Sitrus Berry to use Belly Drum. Can't use Waterpon or Rockpon, they're forced to hold their masks. Can't use Choice Scarf for speed control or Band/Specs for breaking power, you somehow have to check those boxes while holding boots. Even when you suck it up and decide to use something like Boots Weavile, that set is so weak that it loses 1v1 to Defensive Gholdengo, without tera from either side. Knock does like 70 and you just die back to MiR lmao. And even with max layers up, I'm pretty sure a toxapex that's been knocked off will easily tank +2 attacks and Toxic it back. Your options for speed control, for stallbreaking, and for answering dangerous HO set up threats are all LIMITED.

As if monsters like Roaring Moon, Waterpon, Kingambit, and Tera Manaphy weren't hard enough for balance to viably contain, you also need to be hazardproof should you dare to use pokemon like Clodsire or Mandibuzz which give Gliscor free turns.

***

Anyway, right after Tera, I find Gliscor to be the second most limiting factor stopping me from really trying to branch out in teambuilding. And even when I try to build with Gliscor and make some Superman Balance, I struggle to answer even common HO threats while holding boots without spiraling down into hard stall.

Quite frankly, I don't think the unhealthy effects of Spikes Gliscor are obvious enough for it to be suspected and banned yet. It would take a few months of suffering, at best, for this community to reach the imo right decision, but we don't even have that much time. DLC2 will drop and sink us back into an unbalanced circus yet again. Even assuming there are no standout threats to handle ( with Tera Blast coverage? god.), I don't see us making effective tiering action to improve the hazard situation for at least another 5 months. So pull yourselves up by your Heavy-Duty Bootstraps and weather the meta for the rest of the year with me.

This is a pretty short post by my standards, but thanks for reading this far if you made it

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I think Gholdengo is worth looking at if the most egregious spikes setters, most notably Gliscor, and maybe Ting-Lu and Samurott who would rise to prominence only in a post-Gliscor world, are removed and spikes are still an issue.

But I don't really believe "Gliscor isn't the problem, Gholdengo is" has a lot of merit. Gliscor is extremely limiting even on teams that don't run Gholdengo. Very few Pokémon can break it down, and the lack of removal is not only a Gholdengo problem, it's a Gliscor problem. The only Tusk that frightens Gliscor out is Ice Spinner which can be scouted with protect and hits up to like 66% which is easy for Gliscor to recover and therefore Tusk always has to trade a Toxic for a Spin and Gliscor gets to collect healing from it with protect. Gliscor laughs at Tusk and Cinderace both because neither of them can significantly threaten it so it can just keep setting spikes in their face, (except on ice spinner tusk, but again, it gets them out again later) and it's so easy for the cycle to continue because it regains health so quickly. The regaining can't be blocked with Knock Off or negated with status. Protect is unblockable and can't be offset unlike other healing moves. Very little real counterplay for this Mon and the dynamics it introduces severely limit teambuilding and warp how the game is played

edit lmao Srn said it way better right before me

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

- i would need to invent new numbers to properly describe what i want to rate this thing on the survey. georg cantor wouldn't be able to do it justice. comeback mechanics have precisely as much place in competitive pokemon as evasion does. get it the FUCK out of my tier and never ever let it back is what i'm saying

- 5. she just doesn't have consistent answers besides tera grass dondozo, and she also happens to be the exactly one (1) thing that anyone would ever use tera grass dondozo for. anything else gets bonked by some marginally-off-meta coverage or simply blasted through by sd tera cudgel. i swear you can run more than four moves on this thing

- 5. it's somehow turned out to be broken in a completely different way from how we originally thought it was, and it manages to also be broken in that original way at the same time. as i'm typing this some sick sadistic creep is probably out there crafting yet another manaphy set that's somehow more broken than the last one

- 2. i really, really don't think gholdengo is the problem. the removal is just not there, string cheese man or no string cheese man. we should focus on the setters first. if we ban gliscor and hamurott and ghold is still a problem, sure, then we can test it, but the focus should be on the setters

- 4. it would be a 5 if there weren't those other glaring problems clogging up the tier. this thing never dies ever, basically guarantees you 3 layers of spikes, absorbs status, can stall with toxic/protect, sets up with sd and even scale shot sometimes to shred teams that expect the stallier sets, does your laundry, files your taxes, makes julienne fries, unfolds into a bed, and singlehandedly (singleclawedly?) dictates the viability of a double-digit number of mons. it's like if lando-t and deoxys-defense had a baby and abandoned it to be raised by gen 4 breloom

- 3. i can definitely see the problems behind it but for christ's sake can we please just get gambit out of here already so i can play a match with an actual endgame for the first time in almost a year

tera - 1. grow up, people, it ain't going anywhere

 

[Leman123]

- 5. it's somehow turned out to be broken in a completely different way from how we originally thought it was, and it manages to also be broken in that original way at the same time. as i'm typing this some sick sadistic creep is probably out there crafting yet another manaphy set that's somehow more broken than the last one

Whats this new way Manaphy is broken now?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Whats this new way Manaphy is broken now?

a lot of people were considering it broken at the start of the dlc because of how easy it was to set up tail glow, and sometimes multiple tails glow, on veil teams. now a bunch of people are running the wacky zany acid armor + take heart set

 

[Chilln0]

For some of these mons I don’t really have more to say other than something like “yeah ban that shit, its way too good” but I’ll throw my opinion out there regardless

I was taking a bit of a break from playing the tier (as any sane person should) when the Kingambit suspect was happening, but I honestly have no idea how this thing wasn’t banned then. It was broken before HOME. It was broken before DLC. Its still broken now. Same old story, same old song and dance (5/5)

I find it kind of funny that before the DLC whenever anyone talked about “Roaring Mid” it was always about howits just an okay offensive mon and nothing more. I feel like its not just about trying to cover this thing, that alone is pretty difficult, but doing that AND covering the rest of the tier feels borderline impossible (4.5/5)

My biggest issue with Manaphy now is the Take Heart Stored Power sets. This is why I’ve started to think that Stored Power itself should be banned instead. Seriously, its broke like 3 mons now, and its not like the current abusers are “competitive” or anything. Regardless, if a Stored Power ban is off the table, then the meta is much better off without Manaphy (4/5)

I’ve flipped between thinking this thing is broken as shit and thinking its actually healthy for the tier like a dozen times now. Ivy Cudgel is a frustratingly powerful move (seriously whose idea was it to give an effective 120 BP move an increased crit chance), but I also think that it has the potential to be manageable. Its hard to tell with all the other broken mons running around, and it certainly isn’t getting off the hook, but out of all the broken braindead sweepers running around its the most manageable (3/5)

I have quite a bit to say about this thing. If something here doesn’t make sense, its because its midnight as I am typing this and I’m a bit exhausted lol.

Gholdengo has had a vice grip of a stranglehold on the hazard metagame just by existing. If there were more viable defoggers that could threaten it (like if Torn-T or Zapdos got it) then we wouldn’t even be having this discussion, but we aren’t in that world. Not having to rely on Tusk for hazard removal would GREATLY improve the health of the hazard meta, and its why I don’t think Gliscor is the problem with it. The removal of Gholdengo’s presence alone greatly hinders Gliscor’s ability as a hazards setter, and will make it much more manageable to deal with.

Its a bit of a shame, because its one of my favorite new Pokémon this gen, but I digress (4/5)

I already mentioned it when talking about Ghold so I’ll keep it brief, but Gliscor isn’t the problem with the hazard meta. This is actually very easy to prove: the hazard meta was always terrible, even before Gliscor’s return. Gliscor just makes the problems more noticeable, and I feel like its presence outside of hazards is healthy for the meta, so I don’t see a justification to ban it in that sense (1/5)

 

[Exotic64]

My thoughts on all this new discussion

I'm super conflicted about Gliscor rn. I personally dislike playing against it a lot mainly because of how annoying it is, but lets be honest its not banworthy lmfao. Gliscor is a metagame staple; it revolutionised the stale boring metagame of Ting-Lu spikespam mirrors in the later half of Home, and despite losing roost its proven to be still incredibly good due to its insane bulk and good utility movepool. What I dont understand is why people want it banned - it is not as impactful as Ogerpon-Hearthflame which single handedly made stall and balance unplayable, it does not have any absurd stats that make it banworthy, its just a mere 510BP mon that offers very good utility and does its job very well, whilst being a solid check to many offensive and defensive mons. Definitely not banworthy but i am sure it will remain top tier in the OU metagame until DLC2 drops.

Roaring Moon is a really interesting one. On paper it looks banworthy as fuck rn - knock off, DD and a 370 speed stat to outspeed pretty much everything after a DD (most prominently Iron Valiant), great coverage in EQ and brick break, and a great attacking option in Acrobatics, which synergises extremely well with booster energy. However on practice it has not gotten the results I have necessary longed for. Despite Roaring Moon being such a powerful attacker, it remains deceptively squishy, and makes it prone to revenge kills from very common mons like Kingambit and Dragonite. Roaring Moon also struggles to break through defensive Gliscor, which is one of the most used mons rn, and risks getting static/flame bodied from zapdos and moltres, which arent uncommon rn either (Roaring Moon never OHKOs defensive variants of the two so theres two chances to proc the "30%" status). Call it power creep or whatever, but despite being +1 and having attack boosted from Booster Energy, it struggles to OHKO many common fatter mons of the OU tier such as Great Tusk, Lando-T, Manaphy, Ting-Lu, Pex, Zama, Corv, Clef and the two birds, even with Acrobatics. Roaring Moon is often forced to invest in tera flying to be able to kill them in one hit, which is bad since the prevalence of Kingambit often means it dies the next turn to sucker anyways - this is why i have been running the tera blast fairy + knock off set - which i used for my suspect run. The high usage of Gliscor also means there are a lot more Kingambits running Air Balloon, which is also detrimental to Roaring Moon as it is unable to OHKO it unless it is running Brick Break (imo the best 4th slot rn) - and ofc, Roaring Moon always has its issues vs Dondozo, so run into one of those and you lose all your progress. What I'm trying to say is that despite all the good things going for Roaring Moon, it feels a lot worse in practice and it feels like theres plenty of counterplay for Roaring Moon as a result of having to deal with many other high threats as a collateral, like Ogerpon Wellspring, Gambit etc. I would monitor this mon but I wouldnt consider it banworthy atm.

Ever since the beginning of DLC and the creation of the now spammed Wellspring HO RMT that I made, I have felt like Wellspring has always been better than Ogerpon-Hearthflame, however Hearthflame is just much too restricting to teambuilding and metagame progression and I felt like a quickban wasnt unreasonable, but I personally wouldve liked a suspect much more. Back onto the topic of Wellspring, this mon is absolutely one of the best in the metagame and arguably the best answer to Gliscor and Balance in general. NOTHING besides Amoonguss can withstand winning vs Ogerpon-Wellspring in the long term - the only consistent switchins are Grass types; either Rilla (which loses longterm), Amoonguss (the only solid option) or opposing Ogerpons, which results in a speedtie of Power Whips doing 98% to each other lmfao. Ogerpon Wellspring does extremely well vs balance/stall, often forcing out a tera from the Dondozo, creating opportunities for offensive mons and resulting in having a Tera advantage. Personally building balance has been difficult without incorporating for counterplay for Wellspring, which is either Amoonguss or some sort of revenge kill or priority. Definitely a mon I would advocate for the next suspect to be looked at.

Annoying mon, under webs its pretty dumb but in all other cases its not that good. Acid Armor Take Heart just loses to Encore (which every team should be running by now), Ogerpon-Wellspring comes in and forces this mon to tera or die to a Power Whip, tail glow is just too slow and often only claims one before dying itself. In general, pure water is a terrible offensive typing, and Manaphy does not have an excellent speed compared to other offensive threads, resulting in it to either tera for value or just die or pray.

HO mains will always say DNB - this mon is healthy for the tier and surely after playing almost 6 vastly different metagames (release SV, pre brokens ban (ape, bundle, chiyu etc), pre chien pao ban, pre-home, home, DLC1) people have adapted and found counterplay. I rarely solo lose games to Kingambit anymore and I firmly believe playing around this is a skill. Kingambit is theoretically broken due to its good bulk and amazing ability, but as the tiers premier revenge killer and the most used 'mon of the metagame, t every team should have answers for this mon and the more you play the less this mon will feel overwhelming.

Spikes is a big issue but now that we are seeing more 6 boots teams more than before I think its more of a lack of removal issue rather than Gholdengo issue (which only blocks Corv defog). Balloon Dengo is definitely its best set rn, but people are adapting with Knock off gliscor. Could get looked at down the line but trust me this shit was 100 times worse during Home when everyone was just running Ting Lu + Tera Ghost Gholdengo, once spikes are up they arent going away lol.

looking forward to the ogerpon wellspring suspect that is (hopefully) coming out soon.

 

[redninjapuffle]

Might as well give my own 2 cents on these mons

: I have come for free comebacks and 50/50s!
Everyone else: GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY TIER
Fuck this mon, getting free boosts just for being the last mon standing is dumb, lets suspect and kill this guy already (5/5)

Sometimes all a mon needs is one piece (Knock-Off)
The addition of knock off makes this mon much more of a hassle to deal with, as it now has two strong stabs to spam, and is surprisingly bulky. Though its base typing being terrible defensively means it can be tera reliant depending on the matchup. (4/5)

Haha Take Heart + Acid Armor go brrrrrr
Very annoying mon to deal with, especially under veil, with webs, and/or tera, but its speed tier not being greatest, with good but not outstanding attack and bulk before boosts hold this mon back a bit, that and also waterpon being a pain in the ass for it. (3/5)

I'm mixed on this one, on one hand, it has really good attack, speed, and some decent bulk, combined with a really good defensive typing in grass/water with water absorb makes this mon incredible. Thats not to mention its amazing movepool, a 120 BP water move that has a increased crit chance, speed boosting grass move, recovery in Synthesis and Horn leech, coverage in play rough and low kick, and great utility in knock off, u turn, spikes, and encore. However it being forced into tera water, and 4MSS syndrome holding it back on the SD + Trailblaze sets can hold it back offensively. (4/5)

Putting these two together because they represent the same issue, hazards. The way things are, hazards have been a pain in the ass for most teams, due to no good hazard removal mons being able to beat both Gholdengo AND Gliscor, but that is more of a problem with the lack of a lot of hazard removal mons in general. Not sure if banning either one of these two will fix hazards, might be better to wait until DLC2 for a better answer imo (3/5)

 

[Return to Zero]

I don't think Indigo Disk is going to be the one that suddenly introduces the consistent Kingambit counter everyone agrees is healthy for the tier.

 

[veti]

These takes are about to make a Chi-Yus overheat look 10 base power...

Tera: exclusively a good thing, skillful and not 50/50, pushes the metagame to a more balanced state (it's already dominated by HO but it would be even worse without tera), adds way more counterplay to every threat. -5 banning it would kill SV.

not broken at all, super splashable counterplay, amazing at checking shit, acts as an excellent glue mon allowing you to use shitmons easier. 1.

lmao why are we even discussing it, it's good but being banworthy is laughable. Fell off after the bans nerfed veil. 1.

only hazard remover that really cares is corv but even then corv still sucks on most teamstyles. adds a sturdy check to top mons such as valiant. Not broken, 1.

shits annoying sometimes but it offers a unique defensive profile among offensive mons, speed tier and 4mss hold it back. 2.

makes building offense a pain and doesn't really provide much utility or defensive presence, I don't think it's broken but I can't make an argument for it to stay in the tier really. 3.

honestly gliscor is overrated it's not even better than tusk let alone broken. 1.