Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Finchinator]

don't really feel like writing something long but i strongly disagree with lily's sentiment that the addition of defog corv and weezing wouldn't be massive differences in terms of alleviating the stress of hazards on the metagame, or that they, especially corviknight with ID, are incredibly passive and easy to take advantage of. If both Gholdengo and Gliscor are that closely rated on the survey, I think it's genuinely awful order operations to suspect Gliscor first.

Regarding the bolded bit and tiering practices: "That closely rated" is outside of the margin of error, so they are not truly that closely rated. Gliscor has been >.25 higher across both of the last two surveys (and generally I see margin of error as between .1 and .2 depending on the sample size of qualified, which is quite large for these surveys in particular).

The only time we suspected something that had such a large disparity lower than other potential suspects ever would be Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, which was because the metagame was still in its infancy and strategies were still evolving. That is not a comparable case to this at all. It would be a misuse of data and undermine the point of having surveys to act on Gholdengo first to begin with.

If we want to have a system that runs on data rather than just a group of people behind closed doors, then we need to use the data consistently rather than throwing it out when it is not convenient to personal narratives. If you wish to argue against survey based tiering, be my guest -- that's probably for another place at another time, but sure. But if you see the numbers as they are and agree with surveys being instrumental in our process, then there's no "that closely rated" with these relative data sets.

Regardless of this, I feel this thread is really misunderstanding the conditions that Gliscor is being suspected under. Yes, it is a very good Spike setter, but it is far from the only reason why it would be suspected. It has unmatched survivability for something that can be a catalyst for so much progress. Swords Dance variants have begun to take off, slow pivot variants are foundational pieces of many great teams, and Knock Off (for opposing Heavy-Duty Boots) variants pair so nicely with other hazard setters that are not just Gliscor itself. Its collective presence with options like SD variants and Toxic or Knock Off creates plenty of uncomfortable situations in the builder and battle itself. For a Pokemon with such a convenient mechanism for entry and health maintenance, it easily qualifies as a tiering topic through the scope of a utility Pokemon. Spikes absolutely contributes to that and is one of the biggest factors, but let's not pretend it's just black-and-white because Gliscor is the best Spiker as it is not close to that linear.

And regardless of that, I do not understand this sudden entitlement people are assuming for Defog users to be able to Defog. That has never been a staple of our tiering -- Corviknight being freed up would surely change the metagame a great deal, but blocking it alone is not enough to ban something or particularly close. Yes, there is more to it and yes, I agree Gholdengo has a ton of other things going for it -- if it were up to me, I would personally vote ban on Gholdengo probably (and certainly am in favor of suspecting it right after), but a lot of people are missing the mark.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Tangrowth doesn't exist in SV

Which sucks because Tangrowth is awesome.

 

[Moyashi]

don't really feel like writing something long but i strongly disagree with lily's sentiment that the addition of defog corv and weezing wouldn't be massive differences in terms of alleviating the stress of hazards on the metagame, or that they, especially corviknight with ID, are incredibly passive and easy to take advantage of. If both Gholdengo and Gliscor are that closely rated on the survey, I think it's genuinely awful order operations to suspect Gliscor first.

They honestly wouldn't. Weezing can defog on dhengo and is fringe as is. Removing it won't suddenly make it a more appealing defog user because it has awful issues that make it hard to build with and make use of. Corv is a very abusable pokemon because of how much it's tasked with doing already and thus easy to take advantage of. Gliscor can freely uturn on Corv to bring in a threatening teammate for momentum. Even other spikers aren't THAT bothered. Samurott could abuse a defogging corv with taunt or encore, while Ting Lu freely racks up chip with ruination.

In fact, Corv being the only "good" source of removal that doesn't lose to Gliscor teams could easily be abused and built around for those spike stacking teams.

 

[heileone]

Gliscor can freely uturn on Corv to bring in a threatening teammate for momentum. Even other spikers aren't THAT bothered. Samurott could abuse a defogging corv with taunt or encore, while Ting Lu freely racks up chip with ruination.

Ok, this is cool and all but I hope you realize that all of these options still mean that spikes did not go up (aside from sammy, but he is much frailer so offensive counterplay is much more feasible vs him). With the amount of insanely good defensive pokemon we have, like dozo, gloking, or the now much improved post ghold ban amoongus, alongside new offensive threats like waterpon that can break all three spikers you mentioned, it isnt hard to build a core that can cover for corvs weaknesses. On top of that, these pokemon are now free to run actual items instead of HDB, since corv can now cover their hazards weakness in turn.

 

[Moyashi]

Ok, this is cool and all but I hope you realize that all of these options still mean that spikes did not go up (aside from sammy, but he is much frailer so offensive counterplay is much more feasible vs him). With the amount of insanely good defensive pokemon we have, like dozo, gloking, or the now much improved post ghold ban amoongus, it isnt hard to build a defensive core that can cover for corvs weaknesses. On top of that, these pokemon are now free to run actual items instead of HDB, since corv can now cover their hazards weakness in turn.

Gliscor has a million chances to put up spikes (hyperbole obviously) because of its defensive presence and ability to cover so much and stick around for so long. It's no skin off the gliscor user's back if it has to do it again. Corv alone is not enough to cover a team as a sole source of removal because it gets taken advantage by the teams it tries to thwart so dropping boots on these mons is still unadvisable.

Honestly even in a theoretical post Ghold world, don wouldn't improve that much. Knock off is far more ubiquitous than before and it's a prime target of the move, and the presence of OgerponW is a big problem for it too.

 

[Deathbringer7]

I think people are really underplaying the effectiveness of Gliscor at keeping hazards up without Ghold. The thing with Glisc is that it's tremendous longevity paired with the general bulky and spikes resistant nature of the teams it's paired with means that it can afford to have it's spikes removed over and over, it can simply set all layers back when it's outlasted the removal options. With that in mind Defog Corviknight isn't going to be a perfect Gliscor spikes answer at all, it cannot threaten Glisc 1v1 and even if it defogs as Glisc comes in on it, Glisc can simply set spikes back and Taunt on subsequent defog attempts. Taunt Glisc would also be a major stopgap to our fringe defoggers like Scizor or G-Weez.

Another thing I discovered while running SD Gliscor is how weirdly spammable Ice Fang is vs bulkier structures. All bulky structures are running Gliscor (this isn't an exaggeration, if you're running something with bulk it's almost impossible to not add Glisc on it) and SD uses opposing Gliscor as an entry point. As the opposing Glisc switches out, SD Glisc can Ice Fang the incoming pokemon. This pattern is bound to be repeated multiple times throughout the game, giving SD Glisc tremendous odds to land an absolutely brutal freeze on the opposition, which can quickly put the opponent in an awful spot. It becomes worse if SD Glisc is paired with mons like Ice Beam Glowking, which allows multiple chances to fish for freeze and over the course of a game , which tend to be long af in case of Glisc Balance mirrors. So yeah, just a thought to consider.

 

[heileone]

Gliscor has a million chances to put up spikes (hyperbole obviously) because of its defensive presence and ability to cover so much and stick around for so long. It's no skin off the gliscor user's back if it has to do it again.

Ok, and corv can come in on gliscor a million times +1 because of pressure. Even if it cant come in on gliscor for whatever reason, gliscor most oppressive when used on hazard stacking balance/semi stall that run mons like milo and mandi. Do you really think corv wont find opportunities to come in as well? Its no slouch in the survivability department itself. Sure, it could find itself on more offensive teams that can take more advantage and not give corv many free switches, but at least at that point we wont be dealing with 70 turns of 2 gliscors clicking spikes into each other in the balance v balance matchup. + offensive teams would likely have more counterplay options, especially once the particularly broken offensive threats are banned

 

[Deathbringer7]

Ok, and corv can come in on gliscor a million times +1 because of pressure. Even if it cant come in on gliscor for whatever reason, gliscor most oppressive when used on hazard stacking balance/semi stall that run mons like milo and mandi. Do you really think corv wont find opportunities to come in as well? Its no slouch in the survivability department itself. Sure, it could find itself on more offensive teams that can take more advantage and not give corv many free switches, but at least at that point we wont be dealing with 70 turns of 2 gliscors clicking spikes into each other in the balance v balance matchup. + offensive teams would likely have more counterplay options, especially once the particularly broken offensive threats are banned

If Corv comes in on Glisc, it can't actually threaten it back and is complete fodder for Taunt, in those cases protect won't be missed much since that whole interaction would probably mean free Poison Heal for Gliscor.

Also our "particularly broken offensive threats", which I'm assuming includes Kingambit and Sneasler since you don't care to mention what they are, already fair poorly into Gliscor, so I'm not sure what supposed offensive counterplay would pop up with those banned.

 

[SilentKillerVGC]

Ok, this is cool and all but I hope you realize that all of these options still mean that spikes did not go up (aside from sammy, but he is much frailer so offensive counterplay is much more feasible vs him).

Corviknight is a passive defog pokemon, it can taken advantage very easily. Gliscor can get Spikes up as Corviknight switch in. Then, Gliscor can switch out for Gholdengo / Zapdos / Iron Moth / other dangerous pokemon as Corviknight used Defog. Corviknight has to switch out for something that can tank that. That's advantage for Gliscor than Corviknight.

We have 70 turns of 2 Gliscors PP stall each other because Gliscor' best counter is itself. We have not enough counters for Gliscor because many OU pokemon don't want to switch on Earthquake, Toxic or Knock Off.

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

If Corv comes in on Glisc, it can't actually threaten it back and is complete fodder for Taunt, in those cases protect won't be missed much since that whole interaction would probably mean free Poison Heal for Gliscor.

yeah, but you’re not fighting corviknight in a vacuum. While dropping protect for taunt doesn’t mean much in this specific mu, wouldn’t it cut into gliscor’s survivability at literally anything else?

 

[heileone]

Corviknight is a passive defog pokemon, it can taken advantage very easily. Gliscor can get Spikes up as Corviknight switch in. Then, Gliscor can switch out for Gholdengo / Zapdos / Iron Moth / other dangerous pokemon as Corviknight used Defog. Corviknight has to switch out for something that can tank that. That's advantage for Gliscor than Corviknight.

Ok, but as I said we have a plethora of strong pokemon that can come in on those threatening special attackers that corv struggles with, such as heatran, ting lu, and gloking. Pokemon is always gonna be a give and take of momentum but with ghold in the picture I can always click the strongest progress making move in the game, spikes, with no give.

 

[Finchinator]

Gliscor is being suspected in SV OU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...xic-tiering-note-post-2.3730625/#post-9843131 -- there is also a note on Gholdengo in the second post

 

[Shinto7654]

Was about to say that was more like a 2 hour laundry folding situation. Also, good call on telling people to not spam the suspect thread with demands of Gholdengo being suspected first, it would definitely have devolved into that if you didn't put your foot down

 

[SDK03]

Gliscor is being suspected in SV OU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...xic-tiering-note-post-2.3730625/#post-9843131 -- there is also a note on Gholdengo in the second post

YES, IT WASN’T JUST QUICKBANNED AND THE SUSPECT WILL FAIL, ALLOWING US TO FINALLY GET RID OF THE TRUE CULPRIT, GHOLDENGO!

Was I a bit overdramatic with that?

 

[Finchinator]

Was about to say that was more like a 2 hour laundry folding situation.

Does not help that after spending multiple hours on getting survey results up, I had to take another hour of my time out to explain the data in the thread to people who had questions or interprited it poorly, but we're finally done and ready to get...3 hours of sleep!

 

[Shinto7654]

Does not help that after spending multiple hours on getting survey results up, I had to take another hour of my time out to explain the data in the thread to people who had questions or interprited it poorly, but we're finally done and ready to get...3 hours of sleep!

Oh deaer god, do not envy you having to make do with just 3 hours of sleep. Definitely can't do that shit with anymore, hopefully it works out for ya

 

[sims796]

And regardless of that, I do not understand this sudden entitlement people are assuming for Defog users to be able to Defog. That has never been a staple of our tiering -- Corviknight being freed up would surely change the metagame a great deal, but blocking it alone is not enough to ban something or particularly close. Yes, there is more to it and yes, I agree Gholdengo has a ton of other things going for it -- if it were up to me, I would personally vote ban on Gholdengo probably (and certainly am in favor of suspecting it right after), but a lot of people are missing the mark.

My guess is a combination of there being very few Defoggers + also being able to stop every form of spinning + there being many, many ways to set up hazards, in literally every form. I don't even know if there were ever a grn where the duty of Defogging basically falls on one man's shoulders.

I don't speak for anyone but myself on this, but I'm certainly feeling entitled to Defog at this point. Unjustly so, I won't argue, but I am getting just a wee bit tired of my every match looking like a Lego set was spilled all over the floor.

Hide

Requesting Smogon designers to change the sprites of Spikes to Legos

 

[Heatranator]

Tangrowth doesn't exist in SV

That's kinda the whole point, this is IF tangrowth was in SV, it would be a great answer to meta threats.

Does not help that after spending multiple hours on getting survey results up, I had to take another hour of my time out to explain the data in the thread to people who had questions or interprited it poorly, but we're finally done and ready to get...3 hours of sleep!

Damn, I'm just taking on a part time job so I know my sleep schedule is going to get worse but oh my god. Can we just take down Pokemon showdown for a week to allow Finch and the council to actually rest? Also the people who say that the council does not care, which are few, look at this and continue saying that, cause I will throw you out a multi story building.

Also this may be the first suspect test I will try to get requirements for to ban gliscor. Wish me luck.
Also also, banger song choice.

 

[tommytt22]

At the start of gen 9 i thought supreme overlord would be a fad and defiant would be the clear winner bahahaha i was wrong. Ever since roaring moon got banned i just swapped him back for gambit and honestly gambit is just old reliable i feel more confident sweeping with it than i did with moon. Grossest of pokemon

 

[JunkoAJ]

Gliscor is being suspected in SV OU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...xic-tiering-note-post-2.3730625/#post-9843131 -- there is also a note on Gholdengo in the second post

How is the prefix for suspect alts determined? Is it literally just a random two letters after OU or do those two letters have a meaning

 

[YNM]

How is the prefix for suspect alts determined? Is it literally just a random two letters after OU or do those two letters have a meaning

They do, they are the initials of some kind of adjectives that describe the mon being suspected. For example, Gliscor's prefix for the suspect test is OUVT, which stands for "Venomous Twat". Roaring Moon's prefix was OUFC, which of course stands for "Fucking Cheap", just like the teams that used to run it. Another example, Zamazenta-H's prefix was OUHF, HF standing for "How (the) Fuck (is this mon allowed in this tier). It is a very intuitive process overall.

Hide

I'm joking btw

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

The funny thing is that even if Gliscor passes this suspect, it'll probably just get it again in future.

 

[arnimacarni]

So, once again another suspect where I'm not going to bother to get reqs as I faced RB-Wish-RestTalk Pawmot and broke my streak. WHY THE HELL DOES SLEEP TALK CALL REVIVAL BLESSING EVEN IF IT HAS 0 PP

All in all, I respect the way things have been done, but feel like the aggressivity question was a bit overlooked by the council in the end result. I would have certainly not minded (and with me I believe most Gliscor and Gholdengo supporters) to have the dynamic duo quickbanned with a firm promise to retest them in DLC2. I feel like some people might shy away from banning Glisc seeing as it's not a legendary, it's a defensive mon, and it's not definitive, but even I who enjoy Gliscor and find it reasonable in the most part can see that it needs to go until there's a definitive stability on the tier. I don't even know if this is the tier of Great Tusk and Garganacl, the tier of Glowking and Hamurott, or the tier of Manaphy and Waterpon, seems like with every DLC the tier has drastically changed overnight. We need to define a stable meta and then retest banned mons to see how and if they warp it.

 

[redninjapuffle]

Does not help that after spending multiple hours on getting survey results up, I had to take another hour of my time out to explain the data in the thread to people who had questions or interprited it poorly, but we're finally done and ready to get...3 hours of sleep!

Damn, get some sleep finch

 

[Copland]

From the Suspect Thread, here's the Council Vote breakdown on action for Gliscor:

Quickban Gliscor: ausma, NJNP, TPP -- 3
Suspect Gliscor: Finchinator, ima, Lily, mind gaming, Ruft, Star -- 6
No action on Gliscor: xavgb -- 1

Gliscor received a 3.53 from the general survey respondents but a 3.99 (!) from qualified respondents. This makes sense to me because optimized Gliscor play is really foul, as we've seen in SCL. That does make xavgb's vote for No Action interesting, though, because they've been competing in the same tournament that gave us the 70 turn Gliscor stalemate. In fact, they liked Sylveon used calm mind's post about it. So .. I dunno.

It's neat to see that there were three votes to Quickban Glisc (ausma, NJNP, TPP). Respondents to the latest survey indicated they'd like Council to be a little bit aggressive when it comes to using Quickban power (6/10), so I'm assuming that metric in conjunction with the qualified survey responses on Glisc made them think, "Let's just go ahead and get this over with." I'm not sure how the community would have responded to a Glisc QB, even if it would have been the most efficient course of action, but I am nonetheless optimistic that Gliscor will be banned via Suspect Test.

Glisc is really nasty, especially at high levels of play. And it's not just that it can keep up hazards. I urge you to watch some SCL games to see how top players are playing it and playing around it. It's hard to switch into, it's hard to kill once you do get in, it's naturally immune to Spikes and neutral to Rocks, it can't be statused. When DLC first dropped I really didn't think Gliscor was all that special, but it's turned into a really unhealthy presence in the metagame. I'm very glad that Gliscor is being addressed.