CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 8 (Stat spread selection)

[futuresuperstar]

This is not meant as an off-topic post, but I do think we need to have a better definition of balanced. We have spreads all over the place, here. I mean, maybe I do not understand the concept exactly, but it seems a lot of the spreads are tilted heavily toward defense. I originally had 115 HP / 105 Defense / 95 Sp.Def with a much slower, slightly weaker Pokemon, but when I read about the stress of "balance" with keeping offenses (attack, special attack, speed) and defenses (HP, defense, special defense) generally similar, I adjusted my spread to 115 HP / 95 Defense / 70 Sp.Def. Looking over all of the other spreads, I can't help but feel I misunderstood. I have no qualms with it, really, and I don't mind if my spread loses (it was an honor enough to have my spread for Revenankh chosen, as it is). So, please do not think that I'm just trying to complain for the sake of poor sportsmanship. I simply think that we should try to very clearly define balance (as well as other categories) as best as we possibly can next time.

It is nice to see a lot of different kinds of spreads though, and the more I look at Time Mage's, the more I think it deserves some love. People forget how effective his spread would be. It's easily durable enough to switch in on many threats, fast enough for its job, and has a low enough HP to pretty much beat anything without a choice item or super-effective move one-on-one.

 

[Aki]

what the flying fuck; this is turning again into a flame war...

Either way, we can twist the definition of balanced: IIRC it the highest actual defensive stat has to be 20% at the most above the highest actual attacking stat, Speed and HP don't have any effect on the Offensive, Defensive or Balanced aspect of a pokemon. We've gotta work with what the community chucks at us, if they throw shit, they get shit. They chucked Balanced in the hopes of a Bulky Ground/Steel/Water counter, and we've gotta work with that.

In regards to FSS: SubSeeding needs higher HP then something around Base 45/50 to work that effectively, It's no good if it dies in one hit of something.

Also, for all those bitching about "Not being offensive enough, too defensive", we tried to give the general public what they wanted. They wanted balance for a Bulky Water/Ground/Steel counter, so we made a bulky thing that can take a few stat boosted Bulky Water/Ground/Steel hits, and we tried to give it enough attacking prowess to keep it balanced whilst maintaining that original view.

 

[oshada]

1. Deck Knight: 107/80/88/110/88/72
2. Lil Ant: 100/65/95/104/95/78

 

[futuresuperstar]

Not necessarily, Aki. Time Mage's spread can take a couple of hits on either side better than Spiritomb. Sure, it has a few weaknesses, but bring it in on any tank / wall, set up a substitute, and off you go. I just think it deserves a bit more love, that's all.

 

[Hazmat]

1. Futuresuperstar: 115 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 70 / 75
2. Latinoheat: 98 / 74 / 112 / 107 / 90 / 63
3. Fishin: 85 / 82 / 81 / 116 / 97 / 79
4. Deck Knight: 107 / 80 / 88 / 110 / 88 / 72

<opinion>
I'm going to say this, and I know damn well art isn't everything --but--
I cannot see a lizard with freaking cannons for arms hiding behind subs throwing seeds and draining life slowly. I wholeheartedly support the more offensive-minded less overly bulky sets.
</opinion>

 

[Bluekikatana]

1. Futuresuperstar: 115 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 70 / 75
2. Latinoheat: 98 / 74 / 112 / 107 / 90 / 63
3. Fishin: 85 / 82 / 81 / 116 / 97 / 79
4. Deck Knight: 107 / 80 / 88 / 110 / 88 / 72

<opinion>
I'm going to say this, and I know damn well art isn't everything --but--
I cannot see a lizard with freaking cannons for arms hiding behind subs throwing seeds and draining life slowly. I wholeheartedly support the more offensive-minded less overly bulky sets.
</opinion>

Much agreed, I also voted the ones with highest attack simply for that fact. The Pokemon that was chosen justifies those type of stats the most. And if anything it definitely needed higher attack (looks made for woodhammer). Further suggesting why the art should be chosen before the stat distribution. Then it can still be made competitive from there.

 

[Aki]

Post that in the Progress guide thread, the BST makes more sense atm because we should pick the Base Stats according to the role people want it to fufill and the art should work off that.

 

[Bluekikatana]

Post that in the Progress guide thread, the BST makes more sense atm because we should pick the Base Stats according to the role people want it to fufill and the art should work off that.

People will pick the art that looks the best suited towards being a Pokemon regardless of if it matches the stats that were picked before hand. It just makes more sense to match the Pokemon with the stats, the same way the move pool is matched with it.

 

[devoninja]

1. Futuresuperstar

2. Deck Knight

3. Latinoheat

4. Aldaron and Mekkah

 

[KoA]

1. Admiral_Stalfos19: 110 / 73 / 99 / 104 / 99 / 60
2. Lil Ant: 100 / 65 / 95 / 104 / 95 / 78
3. Dane: 99 / 72 / 115 / 97 / 93 / 69
4. Aldaron&Mekkah: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60

These 4 stuck out the most to me.

 

[Mekkah]

i am setting aldarons and mekkahs to number seventeen on my list because they are both poopoo faces

:/ What the fuck is your problem?

Then the process needs work, the 545 bst was way too high to start with as it is. Its not like this thing wouldn't have been competitive OU with 10-20 less base stats.
There is such a huge difference between 545 and 525 or even 535, but not enough people seem to realise this.

It does need work, but there's nothing wrong with the way the BST was picked. It was what people voted for. I voted on the lower edge as well, but it didn't turn out that way.

If you have a problem with the way balanced is defined, you should have said so earlier. You know, when the process was being discussed. Not when BSTs are up. Aldaron and I made our spread within that definition.

I'll vote later today. I'll lay this out once more: The reason Aldaron and I did our spread this way was because it was clearly more dangerous to make this Pokemon have overkill offense compared to overkill defense. The way it is now, it is good at both, and is designed to be a decentralizing force.

I'll vote later. Also, it seems that with the "least point wins" system, you are actually at a disadvantage if your spread is in someone's top4, and he neglects to put down all the others, since those wouldn't get any points.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

New Vote

1. Admiral_Stalfos19: 110 / 73 / 99 / 104 / 99 / 60
2. Aldaron&Mekkah: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60
3. Aki: 130 / 66 / 102 / 100 / 87 / 60
4. Latinoheat: 98 / 74 / 112 / 107 / 90 / 63

 

[Time Mage]

OK, here's my vote:


Rank 1: Time Mage: 45 / 55 / 115 / 105 / 115 / 105: Because it's good to see my spread nº1... Even if this is the first time and I'm the one voting! :P Now, seriously: There are two spreads about the fast subseeder idea, and I like mine the most. The reasons are in my spread explanation.

Rank 2: Aldaron&Mekkah: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60: Out of all the defensive spreads, this one seems the best. Bulky enough to withstand most direct assaults, yet vulnerable to some key threats. My only concern is that this might end TOO good, but as a defensive pokémon, it serves its purpose nicely.

Rank 3: Deck Knight: 107 / 80 / 88 / 110 / 88 / 72: The third spread I'm voting is not mainly offensive like mine, nor mainly defensive like Aldaron&Mekkah's. It is, indeed, the most balanced spread there. Will most likely work as a bulky attacker, like Machamp or Garchomp (very similar defensive capabilities).

Rank 4: Fishin: 85 / 82 / 81 / 116 / 97 / 79: Having covered all three approaches (offense bias, defense bias, and pure balance), I'm giving my last vote to the fourth overall most interesting approach, which is again a balanced spread. Like Deck Knight's, this one will be able to take hits well and attack back with great STAB and great SAtt.


And that's all. All? Well, I should explain why I didn't vote for Hit4Three's spread. It was thew other "fast subseeder" spread, after all. I didn't vote it because It wasn't enough. 60 HP is not a bad number, although won't be enough to recover the entire sub except against high HP tanks with EV investment. But my biggest problem is the speed. 90 speed isn't good at all for a fast subseeder. The bare minimum should be 101, to outspeed the vast majority of 100 and under pokémon there are. 90 is a nice speed, but it jut isn't enough for the task. Since we are "competing" for the last spot (although I think I have the upper hand, ha!), don't think this is a counter vote of sorts.


Finally, about the defensive and offensive criteria used: As the one who proposed it, I am fully aware that is wasn't perfect at all, specially in the case of "balanced". Choosing "defensive" or "offensive" would mean making a pokémon that could do the opposite pretty difficult (if not impossible), but as shown here, "balanced" allows for all kind of spreads, because neither speed nor HP are taken into account. With the restrictions given, all the proposers have managed to make very good spreads, having the freedom of choosing the offensive or defensive bias, which maybe wasn't the original intention, but was also inevitable given the rules. Now that X-Act has derived a very satisfactory method for measuring the offense/defense balance, we won't see this situation in future projects, if, as I hope, his method is used next time.


P.D.: FSS, thanks a lot for your support. I know my idea doesn't fit what most people envisioned for this one, but I like to know some people doesn't consider it inherently bad, just not fitting their ideas. Which is perfectly OK, of course.

 

[Lord Gloom]

:/ What the fuck is your problem?

I guess the joke fell on deaf ears. :(

 

[X-Act]

I actually made a definition of Balanced in the Stats Ratings thread, and there's an applet there as well, as well as in my signature, to calculate it. Nobody had a problem with it, so we could use it for the next CAP.

It's not my problem if not every Pokemon spread here is balanced. They used a different criterion for balance for them. We can't change that now. So please don't complain. I didn't complain.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Here's my top 4:

4. (1 point)
Dane: 99 / 72 / 115 / 97 / 93 / 69

After hearing all of the explanations for the spreads, I changed my mind and ultimately decided that Tyranitar should be able to keep this thing in check; having lower Speed is the best way to be able to do that.

This spread may not quite have 60 Speed as I would prefer it to have, but at least Dane kept the Special Attack down.

3. (3 points)
Admiral_Stalfos19: 110 / 73 / 99 /104 / 99 / 60

60 Speed; yay. The Special Attack is too high for my liking now, though. (I know my spread had 115 SpA, but I have been swayed.)

2. (6 points)
Aki: 130 / 66 / 102 / 100 / 87 / 60

Sorry, but there was a more well-explained alternative that I took a liking to. This one's still pretty good, though.

1. (10 points)
Aldaron&Mekkah: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60

What can I say? They swayed me. IMO this was, by far, the most well-explained spread proposed. I like it for what it's trying to do.

 

[Luck]

Why does T-tar have be counter for this pokemon?I have seen this statement more than couple times.To be clear i don't mind the stats spread with this in mind because it gives the ability i favor a chance but i am failing to see why t-tar has be a counter.There is no flavor text saying that t-tar and this poke mortal enemies or pokes in speed group range i can see benefiting from a slower poke.

So can somebody explain in the age stealth rock do you want handicap to this pokemon with poor speed as well.We already have Cradily,Cradily does not work.Why does seem we are making another Cradily?

 

[Mekkah]

Luck, they (we) are just trying to make Tyranitar able to revenge kill it when needed. It is impossible to make this thing poor with the criteria we have. It is nowhere near Cradily - for one, it is guaranteed better offense even if it had the same Atk, SpAtk and Speed. But all spreads seem to have more of each.

Anyway, I'm gonna try to vote for versions that don't bring too much Special Attack to the table, as I believe that would cause huge disturbances.

1. Aldaron&Mekkah: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60

This should come as no surprise. FYI, according to X-Act's Base Stat Rating system, it has a 24.7 bias to defense. It's somewhere between Vaporeon and Snorlax when it comes to being biased towards the defensive side.

2. Dane: 99 / 72 / 115 / 97 / 93 / 69

It has about the same SpAtk as ours, and comparable durability, but is slightly faster. I like how it doesn't quite hit 70 Speed, which would make it faster than a few important somewhat fellows (Hitmontop, Breloom).

3. Admiral_Stalfos19: 110 / 73 / 99 / 104 / 99 / 60

What can I say, it's nearly ours, but with a tad more power.

4. Hyra: 123 / 61 / 104 / 91 / 86 / 80

A faster version than most, but penetratable on the Special Defense side, and thankfully only 91 Special Attack.

Even if mine won't win, I hope one of the above does, as they resemble the spread I had in mind the most.

 

[Helios]

Tyranitar was originally considered for being a true counter to this pokemon back when it was going to be a Chlorophyll sweeper. Anyway, Cradily's speed isn't the only thing that makes it suck (remember, Cradily can't actually match ANYTHING, whilst this thing will probably beat SOME stuff, like zong... wait a minute); it really can't do much in the way of support aside from SR, it doesn't even get leech seed, and it's got horrible coverage when considering attacking from either side of the spectrum (Stone edge + Earthquake, or Grass knot + HP; take your pick). BTW, what are we NOT giving this thing when it comes to moves?

 

[latinoheat]

how is tyranitar anything close to a counter to any clorophyll sweeper. This should be a decent enough metagross counter.

I think the majority have said no sleep powder

 

[Grawl]

1: Aldaron&Mekkah (10)
2: Aki (6)
3: Dane (3)
4: Latinoheat (1)

This might just be the most balanced (as in not overpowered in any way) Pokemon we've made.

 

[Mekkah]

how is tyranitar anything close to a counter to any clorophyll sweeper.

Switching in during the sun when someone tries to SolarBeam. It also resists Fire, so it can switch in to cancel the sun if needed.

 

[latinoheat]

I meant using grass knot as opposed to solarbeam, to clarify when people wanted the clorophyll sweeper they wanted it to have huge special attack and outspeed tar.

Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Sunny Day

 

[eric the espeon]

1. Fishin: 85 / 82 / 81 / 116 / 97 / 79
2. Deck Knight: 107 / 80 / 88 / 110 / 88 / 72
3. Futuresuperstar: 115 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 70 / 75
4. Time Mage: 45 / 55 / 115 / 105 / 115 / 105

well the first 3 all have usable attack stats, and the 4th has nice speed. None are overly bulky so could be revenged quite easyly.

 

[Helios]

I meant using grass knot as opposed to solarbeam, to clarify when people wanted the clorophyll sweeper they wanted it to have huge special attack and outspeed tar.

Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Sunny Day

Remember, T-Tar has a base special def of 100, and that gets a 1.5x boost from the sandstorm. Anything but double grass knot or hp fight/focus blast (lol) would probably not 2HKO. Then (considering back then, we'd have been thinking of a more fragile pokemon) 1HKO back with stone edge.