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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
I was actually thinking of beginning a discussion on Rampardos, although my only experience of actually using it comes from my way way amateur days (of course, most people who use it are wowed by base 165 attack, and then realize how quicky it dies if it doesn't OHKO). I lost every match (iirc it never swept any team), and continued to lose until I dumped it for Marowak. But I agree that as a sweeper, it is quite underwhelming (and that Hitmontop is the best counter to it in the world). And its best STAB is a recoil move that kills it quickly, and with the same accuracy as Stone Edge. And yeah, I mentioned it died easily. I nixed the idea due to the fact that people would dislike the Scarfer set and Mold Breaker EQ and also that I was too lazy to do calcs, which pretty much passes as the only "proof" of things here.
On Rampardos, be aware that it doesn't have to use Head Smash, it can use Stone Edge very effectively. Other than the obligatory Scarfer and Band sets it can also use Swords Dance, but the Rock Polish set would be the most common I believe. That attack score is just way too high and it has ways to fix that speed stat pretty quickly. Its defenses are low, but base 97 hp isn't too bad.
And I don't see why this matters. Why do you have to have a 100% counter to Aerodactyl? There are plenty of pokemon that can switch into Aerodactyl and threaten it, just like any other sweeper. In fact, Hitmontop can switch into a CB Earthquake, taking a maximum of 32%, from Adamant CB Aerodactyl. No, you don't have any recovery, but when Aerodactyl is taking 25% from Stealth Rock, and another 29%-35% from Bullet Punch, while doing very minimal to Hitmontop, it's a pretty damn good way to stop Aerodactyl.
Lastly, CB max attack Aero is only one variation and arguably not his best.
I don't quite understand umb's point, I mean any sweeper will trash you if all your walls are at 50%. Any sweeper will pick the rest up if you mispredict badly. Aero has no place in these arguments since any pokemon can be substituted in and the argument remain the same.
The whole thing reeks of personal bias and vendetta. Make better teams.
I don't quite understand umb's point, I mean any sweeper will trash you if all your walls are at 50%. Any sweeper will pick the rest up if you mispredict badly. Aero has no place in these arguments since any pokemon can be substituted in and the argument remain the same.
The whole thing reeks of personal bias and vendetta. Make better teams.
Who cares? So he goes first. He still cannot kill Meganium while she feels free to Recover, Reflect, Seed, Sub, or a million other annoying and damaging things, potentially things that can help Meganium's team.
And if Aero has to put Roost on to combat his residual damages, now you see he cannot possibly carry more than three other attacks. It will always be his burden to make his hits count as his glass cannon physique is easily dismantled.
Nearly every Fighter in UU can switch in on him and shove him out, opening up a nice sweep for yourself. Or just SR and a wall. Or just burn/para him.
And if Aero has to put Roost on to combat his residual damages, now you see he cannot possibly carry more than three other attacks. It will always be his burden to make his hits count as his glass cannon physique is easily dismantled.
Nearly every Fighter in UU can switch in on him and shove him out, opening up a nice sweep for yourself. Or just SR and a wall. Or just burn/para him.
He can't kill Meganium? With Stealth Rocks and maybe a bit of residual damage (switching it in on that Lanturn's Thunderbolt/Surf has started to cost you!), Aerodactyl will be knocking it out with a couple Stone Edges. Even if Meganium is at full health, Stone Edge will be doing nearly 45% to her, and she is incapable of OHKOing Aeordactyl.
Can someone run some calcs and see if she can live through two Life Orb Stone Edges, and then a third with Reflect up, and then have enough health left to survive a second Reflected Stone Edge and heal with Synthesis?
Can someone run some calcs and see if she can live through two Life Orb Stone Edges, and then a third with Reflect up, and then have enough health left to survive a second Reflected Stone Edge and heal with Synthesis?
You mean two LO Stone Edges and one with Reflect.
Aero is in.
Mega switches in, Aero SEs.
Aero SEs, Mega Reflects.
Aero SEs, Mega Synths.
She can survive that and Aero just took 30% plus SR from his earlier switch in. If he ever wants to Roost, he's screwed by whomever he's in front of.
Aero is in.
Mega switches in, Aero SEs.
Aero SEs, Mega Reflects.
Aero SEs, Mega Synths.
She can survive that and Aero just took 30% plus SR from his earlier switch in. If he ever wants to Roost, he's screwed by whomever he's in front of.
I can see why Aerodactyl's speed can be a problem. A lot of UU Pokemon that have sketchy counters (Sharpedo, Glaceon, Relicanth) are more vulnerable to revenge kills thanks to low speed or low defense and vulnerability to common priority moves (Mach Punch). But this isn't Deoxys - S. There are Scarfers that outspeed Aerodactyl (Nidoking, Rotom, Primeape, Scyther, Hitmonlee, and Sharpedo to name some) and thus have the ability to switch in on a resisted/immune hit and outpseed Aero for the kill or revenge kill. I don't know if this is what you meant by speed being a problem, but it was the only thing I could come up with.
Indeed, but I prefer the accuracy of Rock Slide to Stone Edge. I equip mine with a Wide Lens as well and run Head Smash/EQ/Rock Slide/Swords Dance. That base HP is more for taking a single, weak-powered hit so that it has the least chance of getting an attack off than actually being bulky. Its defenses, especially its special defense, are so poor that you're going to OHKO it with any kind of decently powered attack. And there are only a limited number of BP'ers available, they're quite predictable. Throw a Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp its way and it'll be completely useless as it is OHKO'ed by everything (well, maybe not Luvdisc) and doesn't outspeed anything except slow tanks like Aggron.
Band and Scarf would be suicide. Parasect takes 0.25x damage from EQ thanks to its typing, can sleep/stun whatever you switch in, while Quagsire (or Steelix) doesn't care about Rock attacks. No, you need to BP to it. You'd just get stuck in a position where you've done little damage, and something is about to set up on you. And as I said before, its defenses are beyond pitiful. The only way you can possibly make it able to take a hit or two from the Special side of things, is by making it Careful, giving it max EVs in Sp. Def and then put up a Sandstorm and Light Screen. Mind you, this will require 2 other Pokes to set up for Smooth Rock and the Dual Screen.
ANY Scarfer will completely mutilate Rampardos, unless you've gone and let the player get up 2 Rock Polishes, in which case you deserve to get swept. And any kind of status will as well, especially Parafusion. If Rampardos hits itself with that Attack and that Defense, let's just say that it's going to hurt. I really can't stress how easy it is to bring down. It has done the least of my team members, and no one has complained about it (honestly, no one, not one guy). It doesn't get an average of 1 KO in 3 games. Basically, don't look at what Rampardos can do but what it can reliably do. In theory, it seems easy. Rock Polish to Rampardos and when they switch in a counter to the BP'er, you use a Swords Dance on Rampardos and start sweeping, right? no, false. Doesn't work this way in practice.
You spelt it out for me. As you said, most people think that because its base attack is 165 that there's no little you can do to stop it. In fact, what you can't do to stop it is a shorter list than what you can do to stop it. Mine has never swept any team either, and indeed Hitmontop is the best counter in the world. But anything with a super-effective move that outspeeds it, or have a super-effective priority attack with some decent power behind it (you don't need much at all) will OHKO it. Take Sharpedo with Aqua Jet and LO for example. First you'll use Aqua Jet and if that Rampardos wants to have any chance at sweeping the team, it needs to use Swords Dance once. So you use Aqua Jet again. KO'ed, and it hasn't gotten an attack off. Or as I just said, you can simply OHKO it with anything that can take a hit and hit back. CB Kabutops is the most notable counter I know of. Aqua Jet gets STAB and super-effective damage. Rampardos is not hard to counter.
I didn't make it too clear, but 80% accuracy for its STABs is pretty bad, and if it misses, it dies (I meant both Stone Edge and Head Smash). People tend to overestimate its defenses (I made that mistake many, many times) and think it can take a hit. In critical moments, it can't and it won't. For those reasons, I think anything but the Scarfer will be mauled, perhaps the Rock Polish set would work if you have good prediction and/or have killed the opponent's bulky waters/grasses. The amount of support it requires also isn't too appealing, far more so than some other UU sweepers, and if it does die, you will see those teams built around it will be a lot less functional.
(And don't overestimate its attack. Scarf Adamant 252 Att Earthquake does a mere 31.73% - 37.26% to analysis Gastrodon, a potential 4KO including Leftovers.)
However, I'm still too lazy to prepare blocks of text. So don't take this too seriously.
EDIT;; @Salem: I also agree with most of your points, except for the second because neither Parasect nor Quagsire are common (although I cited a similar Gastrodon example, so Quagsire might also do well).
And you might think CB Trick Room is worse? No. Just no. In fact, out of its entire (short) run, it at most had 2-3 kills in all of my matches.
In fact, in the RMT forum, there was a Trick Room team for OU posted with Rampardos, and I tried to convince the person not to run it. I don't think my warning was heeded, but...they'll learn it from experience.
Let's not delve into priority moves to beat it (mostly due to everyone ragging on Aero), although they definitely do the trick. If I weren't so lazy, though, I could pick apart even more ways to beat it (I would certainly support anyone who does, though). As I'm thinking right now, I have a hunch that most of UU's top 75% can deal with it adequately. It will probably be unable to switch in to even begin sweeping.
I take this opportunity to state my opinion that I find ridiculous that you're considering Marowak and Regigigas for UU, yet Rampardos may seem to be an issue. Unbelievable.
Special-Attacking Toxicroak's are rampaging through my team, can anybody help with some counters?
The best i can do is revenge-kill with Technitop but if hes dead i get swept...
The best i can do is revenge-kill with Technitop but if hes dead i get swept...
All right I give you that, neither Parasect nor Quagsire are commonly seen. But as you said, just look at for example Gastrodon. And well, CB Trick Room... now that's just literally asking for Aggron, Steelix or anything else like that to come in and EQ the crap out of you. 108 Speed is as low as Rampardos will get, and you can prepare for this. Gastrodon with a -Speed nature will be slower than Rampardos even if Gastrodon has 31 Speed EVs. It gets STAB on types that are both super-effective, and can recover off the damage Rampardos does.
Oh the horror... well, I guess he'll have to learn why you said that the hard way. And they're actually considering Marowak and Regigigas for UU but Rampardos would be a problem? laughable, outrageous, absolutely void of sense doesn't even begin to describe that.
I'm also swapping out Rock Slide for Zen Headbutt so I don't get completely walled by Poliwrath and similar...
Rampardos's attack is extremely high and it's strongest move, Head Smash should not be ignored.
A CB Adamant Head Smash does 52-61% to a Max HP and Max defense Claydol. Quagsire takes 49-58%(these may be off by a little) from it, also Max HP and defense. It's absolutely ridiculous and cannot be disregarded just because of 1/2 Recoil damage. Also can someone please name a so called fast scarfer than can switch into Rampardos with little to no risk to itself and pose an immediate threat to it? I have no idea why you would not mention such pokemon if they so easily counter Rampardos.
For the same reasons why I'm against Marowak I'm against Rampardos. Their attacking score is simply too high for the lesser defensives of those in the UU tier to handle them in my opinion.
A CB Adamant Head Smash does 52-61% to a Max HP and Max defense Claydol. Quagsire takes 49-58%(these may be off by a little) from it, also Max HP and defense. It's absolutely ridiculous and cannot be disregarded just because of 1/2 Recoil damage. Also can someone please name a so called fast scarfer than can switch into Rampardos with little to no risk to itself and pose an immediate threat to it? I have no idea why you would not mention such pokemon if they so easily counter Rampardos.
For the same reasons why I'm against Marowak I'm against Rampardos. Their attacking score is simply too high for the lesser defensives of those in the UU tier to handle them in my opinion.
I forgot to specify that this was in BL, where nearly all my examples come from. There, Regirock/steel walled it to kingdom come and Cursed on the switch, Torterra and Shaymin lol'd at it all day, and all kinds of things that I forgot since this was awhile ago. Oh yeah, and I remember one more: Gastrodon.
Yeah, honestly. I typed what I consider my short thoughts a few pages back, although they were lost in the volume of posts concerning the new UUs. Why they're listed as having High/Average opposition, rather than Very High, leads me to conclude they've either never used or seen them in action. Tauros is also considered, but I'm neutral on that issue, although you can bet that Intimidate and 70/95 physical defense carries cheap switch-ins even against the volume of Fighting types.
I find it laughable, outrageous and absolutely void of sense that you ignored the level of opposition they faced in regards to if they should be included in UU. If Groudon was brought up for consideration for UU and there was an extremely high level of opposition to it you would then use that to strengthen your argument even though it wasn't well received?
My only question: when can said Rampardos switch in? Its defenses are so bad that Jolly Swellow 2KOs one (EDIT;; with 252 HP) with Brave Bird if SR is up (42.21% - 49.75%), so it's not 100% predicting the right move. Losing the Speed is terrible, which makes the Scarf one at least the scariest because it cannot be so easily outsped.
Marowak can take a hit. Not only from the physical side, but neutral hits from the special side when running a bulky set. Rampardos cannot. Marowak's attack is so huge that even Burn can easily be neutralized with Thick Club + SD, and immunity to Thunder Wave means that its speed boosts aren't going to be erased easily. Rampardos gets status and it's useless. There are these, and many other reasons why I dumped Rampardos for Marowak, even losing Mold Breaker Earthquake that would've been useful for the pixies.
Fine if that's your opinion, but you haven't used it in practice. He's not going to get that Head Smash off unless you happen to have a Luvdisc on your team, incase it's the Luvdisc that's going to get KO'ed. You sound exactly like someone whos just looking at statistics but has no experience, and as for the scarfer, it requires prediction. Anything that resists what it gets hit by and hits back faster is a counter. And ''just because'' of the 1/2 recoil damage? you'll take by the very least one hit before your Rampardos is boosted. Considering the aforementioned defenses, using Head Smash is very likely to KO yourself. Any flier will handle Earthquake versions and anything that resists Rock will handle the other versions, Gastrodon for example, can switch in with 0 risk to itself, as Age of Kings just showed. The threat is Rock Polish/Swords Dance BP versions (with SD on Rampardos), but this is not unique to Rampardos and indeed it will still get KO'ed by anything with a priority attack.
Countering Rampardos is really not as hard as it seems, and it's easy to faint before it actually gets a single attack off. As for a fast scarfer, you can use any flier. Xatu (who also has a useful 4x Fighting resistance and can Roost off the damage while OHKO'ing with Psychic) for example. Head Smash and Rock Slide are not reliable opening attacks, and Poliwrath can take either of them and OHKO back with Waterfall or Hypnosis the switch in. But I still think Xatu would make the best counter. It has a very respectable 317 Sp. Atk if you're using a +Nature. STAB Psychic with approximately 465 Speed and 317 Sp. Atk is not something to laugh at, especially not if a single Nasty Plot has been BP'ed, in which case I can use the same argument against you. How is this balanced? the answer is, it's hard to pull off, it doesn't work practically, it only looks good on paper. Just like Rampardos. I assure you that once the surprise factor of Rampardos runs out, and people start knowing when Rampardos will get switched in and what attacks it'll use, it won't be used much at all even in UU.
As for Marowak, take what I said about Rampardos and apply it to Marowak except that Marowak has an okay Defense and is not vulnerable to Fighting while having a good generalist move which it takes no recoil damage from (Double-Edge) and 3 other move slots to play around with. Also, I don't think it gets OHKO'ed by Surf unless it's boosted by LO, Rain Dance etc, but correct me if I'm wrong. It definetily won't get KO'ed by Waterfall, that I'm sure of. Rampardos is OHKO'ed by either one. But Marowak suffers from the Speed Syndrome, that is, it is slow enough to outspeed most Pokes with 0 Speed IVs and in Trick Room, but it still won't be slower than stuff like Gastrodon, Steelix etc. Although I'm not going to say much on Marowak's inclusion into UU, I'm just commenting on it since you brought it up.
Don't try to pull a strawman. I'd be surprised if anyone at all of those that didn't want to include it had used, heard of anyone using it or seen anyone using it in UU. I'm talking out of experience, you know, fact? I've used it a lot now and this is what I've come up with, you on the other hand have no experience with it. But let's not turn this into a pissing match, just go and try to make a team with Rampardos in it, use it in UU against any decent team and I guarantee you you're either going to be lying for the sake of upholding your argument, or you're going to be of the same opinion as me. And as Age of Kings already said, Rampardos cannot switch into anything. Reflect will also ensure that you'll survive whatever it throws at you.
Rampardos's defenses are indeed shoddy but surely you will acknowledge how strong of an attacker it is? It is a fact that Rampardos is not impossible to get in, and once it get's in then what? You bring up subjectivity which will not be universally agreed upon when saying that the speed loss is terrible; as in some cases that the extra power will be more beneficial. The speed provided by the Scarf set is not absolutely better in all regards.
You said in your first sentence that Rampardos is not going to get an attack off? Really? I just showed the amount of damage that Rampardos can do with Head Smash, you can't deny the significance of that damage. Claydol has the potential to resist Rampardos's attacks and perhaps 2HKO with Earth Power but that said Claydol also can have more than half of it's HP stripped off making it a counter to Rampardos no more. Flying type pokemon are extremely risky (note I did not say impossible) due to Rampardos as it's primary STAB is rock.
Ok, but keep in mind that what I bolded in my paragraph was with regards to fast scarfers switching into Rampardos with little to no risk to themselves. Xatu faces an extreme risk when switching into Rampardos. Please don't state something like "Head Smash and Rock Slide are not good opening moves" because your claiming an absolute which is not true in all situations, it's very subjective. You can't assured of anything because it's not always going to be true.
Hmm, I see that you were offended? I thought by bringing up an extreme I'd open your eyes. It just seemed like you disregarded all those who put up opposition regarding the mentioned pokemon. I could of used a more mild example like the pokemon Espeon which I brought up for testing some time ago. That had a strong opposition against it and I soon changed my mind regarding it after seeing some more opinions. I apologize if you were offended, that was not my intent. You bring up a great notion of "testing" it however I don't appreciate my integrity being questioned as I mentioned with my Espeon example I didn't lie to myself after other voiced their opinion on the subject.
If the majority want to test Rampardos or if more evidence regarding it not being as strong as initial impressions lead to be it being tested there is nothing I can do.
Yep. I just played a game, didn't get when it didn't an attack off, and I can show you many more if you'd like. You're jumping to the point when Rampardos is actually attacking, but this is not something that will happen most of the time, and even then Rampardos is going to get OHKO'ed by Earth Power, can't switch into anything bar low-powered Normal moves or something like that.
As for that, if that's your concern then use Gastrodon. I agree though, it's not always going to be true, but still, you have Gastrodon as an example. You can use Recover, and if he switches out you're at full HP again. If he doesn't, you've still recovered some HP and you'll OHKO it back.
I wasn't really offended, I just didn't think it had any relevance to Rampardos. And yes I do, why? because as I've said now, I have experience with it and they don't. I apologize if I'm offending you too, as I don't want to, I might sound rude sometimes though but I don't want to offend you either. And well that's good, but you can't just count on the amount of opinions but rather their validity. I don't think anyone of those you were arguing against had used Espeon in UU nor seen or heard of anyone using it. I don't have a clue about Espeon for UU, and that's because I haven't tested it there, so I recommend you to test out Rampardos. I virtually guarantee you that you'd rather have something else take up that team slot than Rampardos after a few matches.
And if I can actually cause it to get moved down to UU, then by all means I will, because that's where it should be. I really can't stress how much of a complete glass cannon it is, you'll just have to see for yourself. If you've got a UU team, we can test it right now.
As for that, if that's your concern then use Gastrodon. I agree though, it's not always going to be true, but still, you have Gastrodon as an example. You can use Recover, and if he switches out you're at full HP again. If he doesn't, you've still recovered some HP and you'll OHKO it back.
I wasn't really offended, I just didn't think it had any relevance to Rampardos. And yes I do, why? because as I've said now, I have experience with it and they don't. I apologize if I'm offending you too, as I don't want to, I might sound rude sometimes though but I don't want to offend you either. And well that's good, but you can't just count on the amount of opinions but rather their validity. I don't think anyone of those you were arguing against had used Espeon in UU nor seen or heard of anyone using it. I don't have a clue about Espeon for UU, and that's because I haven't tested it there, so I recommend you to test out Rampardos. I virtually guarantee you that you'd rather have something else take up that team slot than Rampardos after a few matches.
And if I can actually cause it to get moved down to UU, then by all means I will, because that's where it should be. I really can't stress how much of a complete glass cannon it is, you'll just have to see for yourself. If you've got a UU team, we can test it right now.
The issue is that nothing can reslly shift into Rampardos easily. Those calcs showed that even with prediction it can 2HKO just about everything, and Rampardos can easily run sets that do not involve Choice items.
Xatu is a horrible Rampardos counter by the way. A counter has to be able to switch in to the Pokemon its meant to counter, and Xatu is obviously OHKO'd by any rock move it would switch into. Poliwrath is a better idea, though it will take about 80% from a Swords Danced Life Orb Earthquake. This is with max offense on Rampardos and max defense on Poliwrath, who will be unable to OHKO back with Waterfall.
Also, anyone who Rampardos has used it in a non-UU environment, which is where it's under consideration. It's also foolish to assume that no one else has ever used Rampardos before( I've used all the currrent BL's at one time or another for the record.)
Xatu is a horrible Rampardos counter by the way. A counter has to be able to switch in to the Pokemon its meant to counter, and Xatu is obviously OHKO'd by any rock move it would switch into. Poliwrath is a better idea, though it will take about 80% from a Swords Danced Life Orb Earthquake. This is with max offense on Rampardos and max defense on Poliwrath, who will be unable to OHKO back with Waterfall.
Also, anyone who Rampardos has used it in a non-UU environment, which is where it's under consideration. It's also foolish to assume that no one else has ever used Rampardos before( I've used all the currrent BL's at one time or another for the record.)
Gastrodon got 2KO'ed? I thought the statistics showed otherwise... and no, you can't run a Rampardos ''easily'' no matter what you do. Sorry, but assuming that Rampardos starts the battle with a SD and Rock Polish is not feasible.
You're jumping to conclusions here. First, you're assuming that Rampardos has attacked, which would be a feat in itself. Second, Rampardos is carrying a Life Orb. This means that Head Smash will hit for 50% of the damage done + 10% of your total HP. And as for that Poliwrath, it can just Hypnosis instead of using Waterfall which I still believe would OHKO it, feel free to lab it with me if you don't think so, I'll be quite surprised if it doesn't OHKO. Of course it'll do a huge chunk of damage if it's carrying a life orb and swords dance, this is stacking the conditions in your favor from the start of the argument. That's like saying we should ban Hitmonlee because he's unstoppable with an Agility and Swords Dance + Life Orb. Nothing can easily switch into that as well. You're saying the exact same thing, except with a different poke, but they still have the same role (sweeper) and it's still the same argument, but if they'd meet, Hitmonlee would OHKO with Mach Punch. So could you please suggest a counter for Hitmonlee with Agility, SD and LO and I'll suggest a counter for Rampardos with RP, SD and LO.
Can't really understand what you're saying here, you mean that anyone who has used Rampardos has used it in non-UU or what? in that case, I just said I've been using it in UU. If you're saying that you've also used Rampardos in UU, then I'd like you to try that again as I really don't believe that judging by what you just said. Either that or it was a year ago...
Rampardos isn't bad with RP and SD, but as I just said, this is still very easy to counter. You just have to use skill instead of pokes. If you've faced the team more than once, you'll know what item it's carrying and what the source for its boosts are. If it's a BP'er, then just Burn or take it out. Something like Politoed would make an excellent counter, as you can Perish Song and then Hypnosis the switch-in. You're also, as I said before, jumping to conclusions, assuming that it won't get statused, predicted and Surf/EP/EQ/Fighting or just any decent neutral attack'ed. Countering Rampardos is not a question of technical counters but of practical gameplay.
You know... if you let an Altaria get a couple of DDs, odds are you won't stop it unless you have something carrying Ice Shard. That doesn't make it overpowered, does it? Surely that only means you were outplayed by allowing it to?
The same argument obviously applies to Rampardos. If you allow it to set up, obviously it will be dangerous. But IMO, it will then sweep you because you failed to act, rather than being so dangerous by itself. 97/60/50 defenses and rock typing doesn't give Rampardos very many chances to come in, let alone stay in. How on earth do you imagine it getting the chance to set up?
And then I haven't even mentioned it's craptastic speed...
I honestly can't see how Rampardos would be a threat to anyone with something resembling muscles on their team.