Well, as far as I'm concerned, Ubers IS a competetive tier. And I think it's a tier for banned Pokemon, not for bans in general. And to maintain a competetive and fair metagame Smogon has banned things like evasion moves.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Why does the ubers tier have any rules?
- Thread starter Syberia
- Start date
The Uber tier is like the OU and UU tiers. OU bans pokemon from the Uber tier. UU bans pokemon from Uber, OU and BL. In that respect, Ubers is just like OU, both are banned from certain tiers. Even NU is a competitive tier, alas one rarely battled in.
There are some battling differences in the tiers, but not something that changes the whole purpose of pokemon battling - teams still require a mix of types and attacks to win. Ubers are more centralised than other tiers, with 30 being considered commonly used. And UU is more centralised than Ubers and OU.
So to argue that Ubers isn't competitive is like saying OU isn't competitve; any reason to say Ubers isn't can be said to the OU tier when compared to the UU tier.
And personally, Ubers is my favourite tier.
There are some battling differences in the tiers, but not something that changes the whole purpose of pokemon battling - teams still require a mix of types and attacks to win. Ubers are more centralised than other tiers, with 30 being considered commonly used. And UU is more centralised than Ubers and OU.
So to argue that Ubers isn't competitive is like saying OU isn't competitve; any reason to say Ubers isn't can be said to the OU tier when compared to the UU tier.
And personally, Ubers is my favourite tier.
The difference is that Ubers wasn't made to be balanced. So Ubers could be not competetive because it is too centralizing. So your conclusion is wrong because Ubers and OU are not alike at all. And that fact that teams need a mix of types and attacks to win is not relevant, because even if a tier would have six different Pokemon, that is the case.
. . . From what I understand, UU is actually more centralized . . .
darknessmalice is at best partially right. Ubers is played like OU and UU is, right, but he fails to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Ubers and OU / UU: Ubers is not a maintained tier. There will never be an Ubers ban list, for example. To not understand this is to miss whe whole point of the thread, which is the devil's advocate question "If ubers is an anything-goes metagame why are there rules?"
Isn't it a question of preference? We're not managing the Ubers Tier anyway, like Chris said. Therefore, it's truly up to the preference of the Uber players. If you want to play no rules, you can-- just challenge people and unclick everything. See how many matches you can get that way though. :/
Honestly, how many Ubers players woul prefer no rules. There is no point in having a ladder that people won't play.
Honestly, how many Ubers players woul prefer no rules. There is no point in having a ladder that people won't play.
I prefer rules, as I would hate to lose matches thanks to OHKO moves and Double Team. Without Species Clause, matches with Arcues allowed could have 6 different Arcues, all of different types and diversity of moves. Without Sleep Clause, Darkai laughs at anything not Scarfed. And the only Ubers faster than it are OHKOed by Dark Pulse.
Chris and Shiny Crobat are right in the sense that Ubers isn't maintained and balance isn't a main concern that Ubers allow everything legal (that is barring Arcues). In another sense though, if a pokemon is very powerful in Ubers (Kyorge is the best example), everyone can use it, so it isn't unfair to any 1 player.
And Chou is right; UU is more centralised.
Chris and Shiny Crobat are right in the sense that Ubers isn't maintained and balance isn't a main concern that Ubers allow everything legal (that is barring Arcues). In another sense though, if a pokemon is very powerful in Ubers (Kyorge is the best example), everyone can use it, so it isn't unfair to any 1 player.
And Chou is right; UU is more centralised.
I never said UU isn't, and this is not relevant at all.
No, he was correcting an error I made. I changed it on my post.
lol not even close buddy
I think Chris is Me was wrong in saying you're the creator of the team, your merely a user of the team.
And yes, Ive seen Maniac's former BP Team, it works very similar to "your" team. Although I fear he has concocted something new.
To avoid another drawn out discussion, I think people are wrong to say Ubers is merely a banlist.
Sure, most POKEMON that are deemed to be called Uber are generally overpowered, but as a metagame, it is the same essentially as OU and UU.
When people say, Ubers is overcentralized, thats just a bunch of nonsense. People say, Specs Kyogre is too strong, it can OHKO too many things. Give me a break! Surely Kyogre is considered a threat that every team has to look out for, but isnt it the same as OU?
If some brave soul decided to use a Sunny Day team in OU, and Spec'd Heatran to use Overheat, I honestly dont see many things coming in the way of that, except those that resist it, even then things like Salamence can take quite a beating from it. Blissey is probably better off against Heatran than Kyogre, but it works along the same lines.
In fact, you can make that arguement about almost every Pokemon in Ubers. DDRayquaza is broken, Outrage is too powerful. Or, Mewtwo is too fast. The list can go on, I mean it just appears to be more "centralized" because there are so very few Ubers compared to the rest of Metagame, so yes every team will have to contain some of the threats regarded as "overcentralizing," whereas in OU not every team has a Skymin, or every team has a Zapdos, because theres a lot more variety.
In regards to having rules, I mean you have to have some sort of rule set. With no Species Clause, One could spam a team of 6 Darkrais or 6 Rayquazas, each a different variant and at the end of the team you can say you got everything covered.
One more point, I believe that even though theres no Tier above Ubers, there should be some guidelines what to use and what not to use, Baton Pass Mew at the top of the list, for example. And before I get slammed for making such a remark, I recall some UU Pokemon being banned from a UU Smogon tour, so this wouldnt be the first time such a thing happened
So in other words: Ubers just appears to be more "centralized" because it is more centralized.
You could, but they'd be just that; guidelines. Doesn't stop people using those tactics, they'd just be 'looked down upon', which doesn't mean a thing to anyone who's only interested in topping the ladder.
If there's so few pokemon who are usable, that is essentially saying the metagame is centralised, as only foolish or incredibly players would use non-usable pokemon.
I actually used to use DeoD as a lead. I loved him. With SR, Spikes, Recover and Light Screen, it almost always setting up SR and a few layers of Spikes, good enough defences to heal off most damage (especially with Light Screen) and there used to be very few Taunt leads to stop it. Only remotely common lead that stopped him was Specs Kyorge (who OHKOs if Light Screen isn't set up) and Darkrai (meh, send in Blissey now that Darkrai can't touch her).
Unfortunately, DeoS's Uber status made him a much more popular lead, and with him running rampant with Taunt (and more Trick leads), such a lead is impossible now.
I actually used to use DeoD as a lead. I loved him. With SR, Spikes, Recover and Light Screen, it almost always setting up SR and a few layers of Spikes, good enough defences to heal off most damage (especially with Light Screen) and there used to be very few Taunt leads to stop it. Only remotely common lead that stopped him was Specs Kyorge (who OHKOs if Light Screen isn't set up) and Darkrai (meh, send in Blissey now that Darkrai can't touch her).
Unfortunately, DeoS's Uber status made him a much more popular lead, and with him running rampant with Taunt (and more Trick leads), such a lead is impossible now.
How is Chris is me wrong in saying that I didn't create my team? I DID create my team, I didn't steal it from anyone else.
That proves another point, Ubers is like OU and UU where it is very hard not to be outclassed.
For example, DeoS>DeoD by a landslide, DeoD may be bulkier but it doesnt accomplish its role as well as DeoS can do the same role.
This also goes back to saying, why use something like Alakazam when you can use Gengar? Or in OU terms, Pinser/Heracross. In UU, for the lack of a better example, Manectric/Girafarig.
In Ubers, Kyogre is clearly the best at what it does, so to say it may be centralizing by nature.
And no, Xtreem, you didnt copy other teams for 6 Pokemon and the same moves, but going back to all Baton Pass Mew teams being in one way or another alike, you took a generic build and substituted other Pokemon in to accomplish the exact same thing.
Maniac was using Reflect/Light Screen DeoS a long time ago, if i do recall.
No to what? I created my own team, and you're apparently refuting it. Care to back up your statement?