Stop Using Him! (Dragonite Discussion)

[animenagai]

You really do have a knack at finding what a poke is good at RL. Good thread.

Before PT, I was absolutely in love with CBnite, because it learned both outrage and focus punch, which mence did not have back then. Now salamence learns outrage too and I sorta put nite to the side, but I think you just brought it back :).

On the CB set, I prefer

Focus punch
Outrage
Waterfall
Fire Punch

Waterfall > aqua tail for the accuracy. 10 in power is quite negligable imo, 10 in accuracy is not (just ask hypnosis). 100% accuracy is quite underrated.

edit: though I guess there is a significant difference between 180 and 160. Eh, your call.

I prefer focus punch over superpower because of the mind games. You'll be surprised at how many celeb stay in just to take an outrage. You'll be surprised how many times you prevent players from using stat ups because they want to stop focus punch, whereas superpower's attack drop is set-up bait.

Can you imagine playing this thing against a stall team? Opponents switch in their skarm, get blasted by focus punch and can't roost, whirlwind OR set up rocks because they'll die if they do.

Beautiful suicide wall breaker. I urge anyone who has a bit of confidece in their prediction, along with some balls to try this beast.

Don't tell Earthworn this, but I remember beating him just because he wansn't prepared to play this thing. He wasn't mence weak, but he was nite weak :P. I really need to win more battles so I don't hang on to these wins o.0

 

[Coronis]

this is an awesome thread, thanks RL

Personally I have never used Mence or Nite before, but after reading this I think I'll give heal bell Nite a try, I'm always getting status'd.

 

[Erazor]

I just returned to playing OU this morning( I haven't played for like 4 months) and immediately made a new team with Dragonite, specifically MixNite, as my wall breaker. I have to say that even though I have not used the new MixMence set, I have used the classic set and feel that Dragonite does it much better, for the simple reason that the pink whore gets KOed.

Great thread RL.

 

[Darkmalice]

I feel that there is one reason, and one reason only, that you would use the DDNite set with DD, Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Punch - the one that is largely considered inferior to Salamence. That reason is to use it alongside Salamence. The aim of this is to lure out the Salamence counters and damage them (as no pokemon except Skarmory enjoys taking +1 Outrage damage). They will have insufficient health to check Salamence, who will then have a much easier time to sweep the team.

However, I still prefer the other Dragonite sets (excellent work RL!) My idea will lower coverage on your team, having two pokemon with exactly the same resistances and weaknesses (including an SR weakness) and having virtually the same moves. One could also remove possible Salamence threats with Magnezone. However, I have found that both DDNite and DDMence on the same team can work okay if your team is built around them.

 

[Trust]

I would like to say that a set with Dragon Dance, Outrage/Dragon Claw, Substitute and Focus Punch can be really bulky, and dangerous. First of all, you Dragon Dance, as the opponent sends something to stop it, and the most probable one is a status. So a Substitute stop it, and you are free to attack or get another Dragon Dance. It works really well when the Status cames from Celebi, as most of them only carry Grass Knot, and it will never break your Substitute. Furthermore, Dragon + Fighting is a perfect combo!

 

[Raverist]

I fucking love you RL.

I know exactly what to breed now, I'll hunt me an Adamant Ditto and go to town getting one of those bulky DDNites.

 

[mien]

This topic is quite odd and i somewhat fail to see the awesomeness of it. It's well written but in the end it doesn't say much really

He says it won't be hard to get 2 DD's with the bulky set. However as much SpD that set has it won't survive Ice beams with SR/SS around. Yes it's true IF he gets 2DD's Dragonite would do better, but really set-up pokemon already got a hit in this generation and getting two stat boosts is nearly impossible against a good player. The reason why Salamence still manages to get 1 DD is thanks to intimidate which forces switches.

It say Dragonite is a better supporter then Salamence is. While that is true there are many supporters who do a better job at supporting then Dragonite. You can't compare the supporter abilities of a pokemon with a pokemon that is designed to sweep. In other words nobody would use Dragonite because it outclasses Salamence in supporting but simply because it is somehow a superior choice to other Supporters. Which is quite rare i suppose

The mixnite is only superior when facing Blissey, seeing as nobody switches in Blissey into Salamence or Dragonite i don't see what advantage that could give.

Of course you can never say that Salamence is 100% better then Dragonite. Every pokemon is unique and each pokemon is always better then another in one way or another. Dragonite might be a better choice when facing stallteams, however since the current metagame is extremely offensive, i don't think anybody but Dragonitefanboys will use it anywhere soon.

 

[Wakalord]

I'm going to have to try out the Stall-Breaker and Mixnite sets, it looks like it could be pretty good in the right hands.

As usual, I love reading the rants, good job ;]

 

[ThaPhantom07]

I can vouch for the Mix Dragonite. I borrowed an EV spread from a user here months ago and I don't remember who it was but it worked mriacles and most people assumed it was an all special attacking Dragonite after I used Draco Meteor and they would switch in Blissey only to be KOed the next turn by Superpower. It can run through teams with some prediction and having the surprise factor on your side.

 

[Silent Storm]

I too recommend MixNite , this guy has been working great for me, much better than MixMence imo.

Just managed to sweep a team with it.

 

[Zero7]

This topic is awesome. Let's hope people will use him this way now.

 

[umbreonleader]

dragonite got around 2-4% usage last month.
Let's hope that goes up.
Too bad my shoddys busted...

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

I have tried both Dragonite and Salamence, believe that the advantage of Dragonite, is that it is decidedly more unpredictable, seeing the actual metagame would be to make a will the version SubPuncher.

 

[Shelcario]

Very nice thread RL I enjoy using Dragon type pokemon, and you've just given more reason to use Dragonite rather than Salamence:)

 

[BalancedPower]

Thank you.
A very good guide.
I agree with you totally that Salamence>Dragonite with the DD Set.
I have been using mixed Wallbreaker for the past month or so.
The power of Draco Meteor and Superpower is insane.
The only difference is, I play a little more defensively with Roost/Leftovers

 

[ImmunityBow]

Nice thread, Light Screen and Roost is a combo that I didn't imagine could pretty much eliminate Dragonite's Ice problems.

Is there any reason why the old Advanced Subpunch BoltBeam isn't viable anymore?

 

[Relictivity]

This thread is great : ). I can't wait to try out support Dragonite. And not only can I set up Heal Bell/Light Screen, I can hit rather powerfully at the same time. This will make it safer because less things will be willing to switch in and setup on Dragonite while it's using it's support options. I'm guessing a rise in Dragonite, just like the one thread boosted Rhyperior's popularity.

 

[Iamslow]

Yeah I've never really been into Dragonite myself at all. I had assumed somebody would ultimately decide that Dragonite shouldn't be used anymore, however I'm sure he still serves an interesting purpose.
I just love Salamence though.

 

[QibingZero]

To be honest, I felt very 'meh' at all points while reading through this thread. Just like Dragonite, it was nice and all, but seemed to be missing things where it really counted.


First of all, I don't understand the point of showing what Salamence's stats would be if it tried to duplicate Dragonite's defenses. Why EV Salamence to take priority attacks 'as well as' Dragonite? If I want to EV to take a priority attack at a certain % of health, I'm not worried about how well another pokemon takes it - I'm worried about how well Salamence takes it. Furthermore, the whole 'Salamence will always hold a Life Orb and always take Sandstorm and Stealth Rock damage' deal obviously would not apply. Not that it's usually a valid argument anyway. If you rely on Scizor to stop a mence sweep, you might be surprised when you actually encounter a Leftovers variety on a team with Rapid Spin. Hey, you never know!

Second, we're still downplaying the speed factor here. For all the talk about revenge killing, and how Dragonite fares better against it, we have no mention of perhaps the most glaring weakness non-DD boosted Dragonite has in that regard: letting Salamence itself in after a kill.

Now, about late game sweeping and bulkiness: Intimidate simply allows more switching in. Sure, if your opponent relies on something which has to use Ice Beam to take down your Dragonite, you'll fare well with Light Screen (even then I have to ask what a set with only Outrage as a single attack is even countering in the first place). You're going to have a much more difficult time switching in, either way. The -1 is huge, but also coming into play is the fact that you will outspeed less pokemon initially, especially if you're running the recommended 245 speed. If you're looking at coming into key resists, and waiting to sweep until later in the game, Dragonite is simply 'outclassed'. I don't see any way around it.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but it just seems like you're reaching on some of these arguments. Yes, Dragonite is different than Salamence, but we can note that while still understanding why there is such a huge disparity in their usage.

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Qibing Zero
First of all, I don't understand the point of showing what Salamence's stats would be if it tried to duplicate Dragonite's defenses. Why EV Salamence to take priority attacks 'as well as' Dragonite? If I want to EV to take a priority attack at a certain % of health, I'm not worried about how well another pokemon takes it - I'm worried about how well Salamence takes it.

That is nothing more than a demonstration to show why people shouldn't use Jolly Dragonite. Salamence can never duplicate Dragonite's defensive stats and still maintain the high level of offense as I've show. Just like Dragonite can't hope to match Salamence in the speed department.

Originally Posted by Qibing Zero
Second, we're still downplaying the speed factor here. For all the talk about revenge killing, and how Dragonite fares better against it, we have no mention of perhaps the most glaring weakness non-DD boosted Dragonite has in that regard: letting Salamence itself in after a kill.

The speed really only is a factor on the offensive sets. With Dragon Dance that is a moot point. Here's why... After Dragonite Dragon Dances, its at 367 Speed. Tell Salamence to switch in.... So what lies between that and Salamence's 420 Speed if it chooses to run it?

Alakazaam - Cannot OHKO Dragonite with Stealth Rock, even with Choice Specs. Hence, Dragonite can get a second dance if it chooses, as a Specs Psychic will do a maximum of 70% to Dragonite.

Sceptile - This is OU. Come on.

Dugtrio - Most are actually Adamant for Blissey. Even still, in most cases your setting up on Dugtrio after a revenge kill.

Weavile - Moot point, it beats both.

Jolteon - Cannot OHKO Dragonite with Specs Thunderbolt, it maxes at 64%. Futhermore, Dragonite can Dance again, then buy a resist with Roost.

ScarfHeatran - Most have switched to Dragon Pulse for Latias. Again, this maxes at 62%.

You can argue, well Salamence is faster initially, but I specifically said in the post that Dragonite needs to run those 2 Bulky Dragon Dancer sets, which easily allow you to get a DD or 2, or the mixed wall-breaker sets which are mainly just designed to take out stall and Dragonite will outspeed pretty much everything on a stall team (unless they are running a Timid high speed Zapdos). So I'm not downplaying the speed factor, I was just illustrating other ways for Dragonite to be effective regardless of its lower speed.

Originally Posted by Qibing Zero
Now, about late game sweeping and bulkiness: Intimidate simply allows more switching in. Sure, if your opponent relies on something which has to use Ice Beam to take down your Dragonite, you'll fare well with Light Screen (even then I have to ask what a set with only Outrage as a single attack is even countering in the first place). You're going to have a much more difficult time switching in, either way.

Ok, I simply disagree with this post. You don't switch your lategame sweeper directly into an attacks, Intimidate or no Intimidate. That is like saying "what does Infernape switch in on?" You don't switch in, you force something out. Dragonite has the same resists as Salamence does so the argument of "switching in" is kinda bullshit. Okay lets look at an example:

This is what Salamence gets for "switching in" to a Choice Scarf Heracross:

It takes 23-27% from Megahorn / Close Combat + 25% for Stealth Rock. So now Salamence has a maximum of 52% health left. Well guess what, Heracross is faster, so a second volley will swipe another 23-27% off Salamence health whether it attacks or not. So now Salamence has an absolute maximum of 29% health. If we go by averages, 25%. That means Salamence gets no futher attempt to sweep this game, and must give it a go from here. However, it is already in OHKO range by priority attacks, which is why people will stay in and "switching in" doesn't look like such a good idea in the first place.

If you do what you are supposed (force Heracross out by switching in at full health), then you have less to worry about and did what you are supposed to; force a switch. But at the same time, Dragonite is in the same position here, as my bulky Dragonite is only taking 26-31% from that same attack, meaning he can Dragon Dance up if he chooses, just like Salamence. Not only that, Dragonite is now carrying around a better defense stat. The only time Intimidate really helps for "countering" (why is your late game sweeper countering shit?) is for Bulky DD Salamence, which has to be Jolly nature and I illustrated its advantages / disadvantages to Dragonite in the OP.

 

[Azule]

Your awsome RL, I tried using DDNite as a cleric and its perfect for my team.

 

[Objection]

Sceptile - This is OU. Come on.

Prove that Sceptile is inviable in OU before saying something like that.
Yes, I'm all for Dragonite, but saying something's crap purely because it's not OU is flawed reasoning.

 

[RaikouLover]

Its not inviable at ALL! Its just not used, lol.

Specs Sceptile murders shit (I used it as a Chomp killer back in the day).

 

[Objection]

Its not inviable at ALL! Its just not used, lol.

Specs Sceptile murders shit (I used it as a Chomp killer back in the day).

The thing is, even though this is OU, a team never has to consist of 6 OU pokemon, so you do have to account for a UU surprise like Specs Sceptile.

 

[QibingZero]

Ok, I simply disagree with this post. You don't switch your lategame sweeper directly into an attacks, Intimidate or no Intimidate. That is like saying "what does Infernape switch in on?" You don't switch in, you force something out. Dragonite has the same resists as Salamence does so the argument of "switching in" is kinda bullshit. Okay lets look at an example:

This is what Salamence gets for "switching in" to a Choice Scarf Heracross:

It takes 23-27% from Megahorn / Close Combat + 25% for Stealth Rock. So now Salamence has a maximum of 52% health left. Well guess what, Heracross is faster, so a second volley will swipe another 23-27% off Salamence health whether it attacks or not. So now Salamence has an absolute maximum of 29% health. If we go by averages, 25%. That means Salamence gets no futher attempt to sweep this game, and must give it a go from here. However, it is already in OHKO range by priority attacks, which is why people will stay in and "switching in" doesn't look like such a good idea in the first place.

If you do what you are supposed (force Heracross out by switching in at full health), then you have less to worry about and did what you are supposed to; force a switch. But at the same time, Dragonite is in the same position here, as my bulky Dragonite is only taking 26-31% from that same attack, meaning he can Dragon Dance up if he chooses, just like Salamence. Not only that, Dragonite is now carrying around a better defense stat. The only time Intimidate really helps for "countering" (why is your late game sweeper countering shit?) is for Bulky DD Salamence, which has to be Jolly nature and I illustrated its advantages / disadvantages to Dragonite in the OP.

You seem to have missed the overall point of my mention of speed, with both this segment I quoted and the rest of your post. It's not simply a mention of 'what can I outspeed after a DD or two?'. The pokemon Salamence can initially threaten are significantly more numerous than the ones Dragonite threatens sitting at the 'base 100 tank speed' of 245. This means you get to scare stuff out which could normally KO you if you were going second, like offensive Suicune, HP Ice Zapdos (still running it 20% of the time in January), Ice Punch Lucario, etc. It's not that bulky Mence has to run Jolly, it's that it can run Jolly and initially beat even more pokemon.

I don't know why you're downplaying actually using these two pokemon for their decent defensive stats and useful resistances. I mean, the bulky sets use Roost for a reason. Where does the problem lie in using a pokemon meant to sweep later in the game defensively until that point? Personally, I would argue that is the intended purpose of most bulky sets, especially on pokemon which have a commonly exploited 4x weakness. They threaten quite a few pokemon out when needed, Roost off any damage, and come back later to (hopefully) sweep. In that regard, being able to switch in and threaten off more pokemon makes Salamence a more helpful member of the team. That's why I feel that it outclasses Dragonite.