CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 13a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Coram_Boy]

I don't mind particularly whether it's in or not, I want to find out what people think about whether the move should be in or not, not me, as like deck knight has said it depends on the situation, not calculations. I just worry that this thing would become extremely difficult to handle after light screen up, and with its high SpA could quite possibly destroy one or two of your opponent's pokemon before the light screen wore off. However, as DK has said it is on most electric types, so although I personally don't think that that means anything, other people might. There's a justification.
I should add that I haven't quoted DK at all, let alone misquoted, but looking back I was probably a bit harsh on the flavor part, but I really don't like flavor arguments when discussing movepools. I also didn't put in a justification, which was completely my fault - apologies.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

CAP8 is faster than Tyranitar, so it can't kill it without getting a critical hit. This would be almost exactly the same as SubCM Jirachi. With Calm Mind, it can tank on both sides off of a respectable Special Attack stat that also gets increased. Not to mention that it could use Draco Meteor a lot of times, since it can boost it's Special Attack again. Imagine, a SubCM set with Draco Meteor and Thunderbolt/Flamthrower whatever. That would be pretty dam scary.

1. My situation puts CAP 8 at +2, which means Tyranitar switches on the first CM, second turn EQs while CAP8 CMs, and third turn takes damage. Without those two Calm Minds CAP8 can't 2HKO.

2. If Cap8 wants to keep it's bulkyness it won't run many speed EVs or any at all. A fair Number of Tyranitar run Max/ High speed and a fair number carry Dragon Dance.

3. It takes two turns to recover from Draco Meteor, leaving CAP8 wide open.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

1. My situation puts CAP 8 at +2, which means Tyranitar switches on the first CM, second turn EQs while CAP8 CMs, and third turn takes damage. Without those two Calm Minds CAP8 can't 2HKO.

2. If Cap8 wants to keep it's bulkyness it won't run many speed EVs or any at all. A fair Number of Tyranitar run Max/ High speed and a fair number carry Dragon Dance.

3. It takes two turns to recover from Draco Meteor, leaving CAP8 wide open.

1. Why the heck would you Calm Mind against a Tyranitar? +1 Surf 2HKOs a max HP Tar.

2. If Tyranitar runs high Speed, it won't have max HP. In any case, Vacuum Wave has priority.

Calm Mind is possible only if you don't believe that an improved Suicune would be broken. Personally, I feel that a Suicune with higher Defence and SAtk and better STABs would be uber.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

3. It takes two turns to recover from Draco Meteor, leaving CAP8 wide open.

Who uses Calm Mind and Draco Meteor on the same set?

 

[JimBob]

I didn't know that the typing of a Pokemon counted as flavor. I always thought flavor was stuff like art and name, stuff that doesn't affect its ability to battle. A Pokemon's typing is not something that doesn't affect its ability to battle, I don't think I have to convince anyone of this. Should we be arguing over whether this Pokemon gets Thunderbolt? I think all the electric attacks were thrown right in the Allowed list.

Maybe this analogy doesn't apply to this situation (since Light Screen is actually Psychic), but regardless almost every other electric type has it; it's a staple of the Electric type. I say Light Screen should be allowed.

Also I think Calm Mind should be disallowed. That example gives him using Draco Meteor, okay, but what if he doesn't use attacks that reduce his SAtk? You can stack multiple SDef increases, which don't disappear after 5 turns, and at the same time gain huge power to back up Thunderbolts or Flamethrowers or Dragon Pulse or something.

 

[Magmortified]

Maybe this analogy doesn't apply to this situation (since Light Screen is actually Psychic), but regardless almost every other electric type has it; it's a staple of the Electric type. I say Light Screen should be allowed.

The Electric attacks were given without a second thought because they were STAB moves that would in all likelihood be acceptable and not overpowering on this Pokemon. There's actually a reason to give them to it; not the least of which that savory one and a half times boost in power.

You actually are utilizing typing in the name of flavor, however, when you give a Pokemon Light Screen on the grounds that "Most of the other Electric types have it." There's literally no competitive basis in that. Please don't use that as your reasoning. Flavor extends even to normally competitive aspects if you use it like that.

Personally, I'm just opposed to Dual Screens as a habit because they're hella annoying. Especially on a bulky Pokemon.

 

[Deck Knight]

DK, what exactly are you trying to say? The first post is saying, these are the calculations that I'm giving you, without factoring things like stealth rock, any ev's in hp/sp. defence, our CaPmon getting a crit (for example). But that doesn't matter because you say that they don't matter (calcs mean nothing).

I never said any of those things. In fact, I used the calculations given me by Veedrock, and then played out what would be the absolute worst case for Heatran. If anything I was overly generous in my assumptions, making Heatran with switchin, giving minimum damage from Earth Power, and assuming Maximum from a +SA Max Thunderbolt, a move that might not even be practical on a set with Veedrocks premise: stalling indefinitely with LS + Slack Off.

Nor did I ever say calcs did not matter. I said that pokemon is about scenarios entirely and not just floating damage calcs. Rampardos can OHKO nearly anything with a Choice Banded Adamant Head Smash, but that doesn't mean you can just throw up a Rampardos calc and say "KO's [Pokemon.]"

You say that Zapdos outstalls stonedge - despite it doing from 85-101% damage to it without a crit from a mamoswine/heracross, and ohkoing from a rhyperior/rampardos.

Stalling Zapdos tends to exploit SubRoost, meaning it can essentially waste 2-4 PP each time it is out depending on if the opponent is Banded or Scarfed, and eventually remove Stone Edge after being on the field no more than 3 times. Never mind if Stone Edge misses, which is basically a free attack for Zapdos. Pressure stalling is not a difficult or unknown concept.

Flavor should not be a factor in choosing our CaP. Why not start out with the list of moves which would normally be allowed immediately, look at that list, and then decide if any of the moves on that list should be removed due to making our CaP too powerful. That's why I think that Lightscreen should be put into Controversial. Incidentally, I don't think that not putting Light Screen on an electric type pokemon would really be a problem. I seriously doubt that 'Light Screen has to be on all electrics' is really a huge thought that passes through game developer's minds. And saying 'all electrics apart from these ones' is a bad way to justify something - it only takes one exception to disprove a rule.

The saying you are thinking of is "the exception proves the rule." If Light Screen is not overpowering on all the Non-Lanturn Electric types and all of them get it, then why would it suddenly be overpowering here? As I stated previously the presence of Light Screen on all electrics is merely an enhancement for the argument it is not overpowered. Given that Lanturn even has a functionally equivalent alternative in Amnesia, I fail to see how your argument has any credence at all.

Were it not a thought that passed through the developers minds they would not include it on every Electric pokemon with primary electric typing.

At the end of the day, though, what would cinch this debate is playtesting, but that doesn't happen in cap. Still, if it makes our cap broken, then we can just delete the move from its entry, right?

We can and do have playtesting after a CAP is completed, but I sincerely doubt Light Screen of all things is going to be removed.

 

[Stellar]

Ok. Cyzir wanted me to actually bring up Counter / Mirror Coat / Metal Burst for debate considering it really isn't getting a lot of attention.

Personally, I'm going to go with allowed for all three of these. With high base HP and good defenses, this CAP will be able to survive pretty much any hit and retaliate with any of the aforementioned moves. This might seem like an easy way to score a KO (but I assure it it is not!). Examples of Pokemon that have access to both of these moves with good HP / defenses can be seen in Swampert and Gastrodon. Both of these Pokemon have the ability to absorb a hit and counter it back, but neither choose to do so because there talents are best utilized elsewhere. I believe this is the case in this particular instant. The CAP will obviously be focused on counter a specific thread or hitting hard with a Life Orb or Specs set (or possibly Dragon Dance!). It probably won't spend the time (or take up the moveslot) to use Counter or Mirror Coat normally.

As with Metal Burst, it's a bit of a different story. The ability to bounce back any offensive attack is pretty great due to this CAP's high HP. I really see this as an opportunity to explore a lesser used move (due to the fact it is only available to Aggron / Bastiodon). Yes, it doesn't fit with the "flavor" of the Pokemon, but that has nothing to do with the decision to allow it on this Pokemon or not. The main issue I take with Metal Burst is the ability to survive many of the attacks launched by the discussed "checks" and OHKO them in return without having to predict around the physical / special nature of the attack. Max Atk Tyranitar does 50-60% to max HP / 0 Def neutral natured CAP, meaning that Tyranitar will take 75-90% in return. The CAP has an 85% chance to survive CB Tar Earthquake even if it has switched into SR and OHKO back with Metal Burst. This might make it a little too easy to kill one of its main counters, so I'm reluctant to include Metal Burst for this reason. Heatran Earth Powers also do the same. Some checks like Latias don't manage to ever OHKO the CAP when using Dragon Pulse and max SpA with a Timid nature (84-99%), so that might be a potential Metal Burst target as well.

I guess the tl;dr version of my post is that Mirror Coat and Counter should be allowed because it takes more prediction to discern which type of attack is going to be launched. Metal Burst takes significantly less prediction and essentially accomplishes the same KOs that Counter or Mirror Coat would.

Counter and Mirror Coat: allowed.
Metal Burst: unallowed.

Sorry if my post is a bit too much stream of consciousness.

 

[10fore]

Stellar, I was just wondering about the same thing. Metal Burst for disallowed, too powerful. Counter and Mirror coat are fine, though.

 

[LudwigVanDamon]

I think Petope brings up a good point about Power Trick. Sure it gives CaP8 two large attacking stats at the cost of being extremely fragile. I also doubt that it would be seen outside of gimmick sets.

 

[Deck Knight]

Ok. Cyzir wanted me to actually bring up Counter / Mirror Coat / Metal Burst for debate considering it really isn't getting a lot of attention.

Personally, I'm going to go with allowed for all three of these. With high base HP and good defenses, this CAP will be able to survive pretty much any hit and retaliate with any of the aforementioned moves. This might seem like an easy way to score a KO (but I assure it it is not!). Examples of Pokemon that have access to both of these moves with good HP / defenses can be seen in Swampert and Gastrodon. Both of these Pokemon have the ability to absorb a hit and counter it back, but neither choose to do so because there talents are best utilized elsewhere. I believe this is the case in this particular instant. The CAP will obviously be focused on counter a specific thread or hitting hard with a Life Orb or Specs set (or possibly Dragon Dance!). It probably won't spend the time (or take up the moveslot) to use Counter or Mirror Coat normally.

As with Metal Burst, it's a bit of a different story. The ability to bounce back any offensive attack is pretty great due to this CAP's high HP. I really see this as an opportunity to explore a lesser used move (due to the fact it is only available to Aggron / Bastiodon). Yes, it doesn't fit with the "flavor" of the Pokemon, but that has nothing to do with the decision to allow it on this Pokemon or not. The main issue I take with Metal Burst is the ability to survive many of the attacks launched by the discussed "checks" and OHKO them in return without having to predict around the physical / special nature of the attack. Max Atk Tyranitar does 50-60% to max HP / 0 Def neutral natured CAP, meaning that Tyranitar will take 75-90% in return. The CAP has an 85% chance to survive CB Tar Earthquake even if it has switched into SR and OHKO back with Metal Burst. This might make it a little too easy to kill one of its main counters, so I'm reluctant to include Metal Burst for this reason. Heatran Earth Powers also do the same. Some checks like Latias don't manage to ever OHKO the CAP when using Dragon Pulse and max SpA with a Timid nature (84-99%), so that might be a potential Metal Burst target as well.

I guess the tl;dr version of my post is that Mirror Coat and Counter should be allowed because it takes more prediction to discern which type of attack is going to be launched. Metal Burst takes significantly less prediction and essentially accomplishes the same KOs that Counter or Mirror Coat would.

Counter and Mirror Coat: allowed.
Metal Burst: unallowed.

Sorry if my post is a bit too much stream of consciousness.

Metal Burst doesn't have negative priority. Basically in order to Metal Burst Tyranitar you'll need a 0 Spe IV and a -Spe Nature (it in turn must be Adamant and not something like Quiet Boahtar). It will still fail against Snorlax, Rhyperior and the like. Only having 148 or So Spe means you'll be taking a lot more hits from things you otherwise might not have.

In other words it requires about as much specialization as a Dragon Dance set does.

 

[Stellar]

Ok. So Tyranitar wasn't the best example (although you do only have to run a -Spe nature to be slower than standard Tyranitar, although I know this point is highly irrelevant).

The point still stands for many of this CAP's other checks.
Choice Scarf Flygon can't OHKO with Adamant 252 Outrage even after Stealth Rock. It is OHKOed in return. Dugtrio has a decent chance of OHKOing, but it isn't guaranteed with Choice Band. Heatran (as already mentioned) is in return OHKOed. Hippowdon cannot OHKO with Earthquake and is OHKOed in return. etc. etc.

And notice how I said this was referring to checks. Not the listed counters.

 

[Penguino]

Mirror coat and counter should definitely be allowed. Metal burst seems too good, the lack of prediction... But one thing I don't understand...

Question: If bastiodon has such good defenses and learns metal burst, why is it underused? What makes CAP8 a better user of metal burst than bastiodon? This is the only reason i find metal burst questionable. How can metal burst be so broken on CAP8 if bastiodon is made UU despite metal burst...

 

[Stellar]

Because despite Bastiodon's good defenses, it takes enough damage to be OHKOed by many of the attacks aimed at it due to its typing. The majority of attacks aimed at Bastiodon will be Ground or Fighting-typed and will OHKO.

 

[Ash Borer]

Because despite Bastiodon's good defenses, it takes enough damage to be OHKOed by many of the attacks aimed at it due to its typing. The majority of attacks aimed at Bastiodon will be Ground or Fighting-typed and will OHKO.

yup, pretty much its typing. If it was pure steel it would probably see some usage.

 

[Penguino]

Ok thanks. So no metal burst. Assuming it is as bulky as possible, is there a realistic way to OHKO CAP8?

 

[hydrolphin]

Bastiodon is x4 weak to both Ground and Fighting, which is pretty terrible.
EDIT: Beaten to it...

Anyway, while they are in no way broken, the prediction thing for counter and mirror coat doesn't really work for me. If your facing a Hippowdon, you KNOW its going to EQ. Only the odd Boah will really be difficult to predict (If you don't know its a boah) but for the most part, its not hard to decide if the enemy is gonna go special or physical.
But I have no problem with them being allowed-not because you have to predict, but they are innefective.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

I feel that Safeguard should be unallowed, because it makes CAP8 completely immune to status of any kind (thanks to it and Shield Dust) for at least 5 turns. This is going to frustrate anyone who likes to abuse status, and since CAP leans more towards stall, status is quite prominent.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Ok thanks. So no metal burst. Assuming it is as bulky as possible, is there a realistic way to OHKO CAP8?

Short of Explosions and +1 Outrages, it's nearly impossible on the Physical side. Even Choice Band Mamo can't gurantee it with Earthquake.

On the Special side, a 316+ Special Attack stat gurantees an OHKO on a Max HP/ min SDef with a STABed Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. A 475+ Special Attack stat is needed to take it out without STAB.

Things like Choice Specs Porygon-Z, Specs Starmie, Petaya-boosted Empoleon, any Glaceon, offensive Regice, Walrein (Blizzard) can take it out.

It's difficult, for sure.

It is for this reason that Calm Mind should be Unallowed. Imagine this thing after just one boost x_x

 

[TPM]

I'm going to have to disagree with Scarfchomp seeing as it already is going to have moveslot syndrome, and unless you're running pure anti-stall set then its not gonna be worth the moveslot.
EDIT: Has anyone brought up Refresh yet, I think it should be allowed because it requires a moveslot that could be better spent somewhere else.

 

[JimBob]

The Electric attacks were given without a second thought because they were STAB moves that would in all likelihood be acceptable and not overpowering on this Pokemon. There's actually a reason to give them to it; not the least of which that savory one and a half times boost in power.

You actually are utilizing typing in the name of flavor, however, when you give a Pokemon Light Screen on the grounds that "Most of the other Electric types have it." There's literally no competitive basis in that. Please don't use that as your reasoning. Flavor extends even to normally competitive aspects if you use it like that.

Personally, I'm just opposed to Dual Screens as a habit because they're hella annoying. Especially on a bulky Pokemon.

okay maybe I'm just dumb... regardless I still support Light Screen as I doubt it will be overpowering, and it can be useful for giving a bit of a boost in SDef, as well as to the team. Supporting Light Screen doesn't mean I want dual screens; I kind of think Reflect is over the top as his defense is huge already and we don't need to give him the ability to bring it up more.

I also think Stockpile should be disallowed for what it's worth.

I feel that Safeguard should be unallowed, because it makes CAP8 completely immune to status of any kind (thanks to it and Shield Dust) for at least 5 turns. This is going to frustrate anyone who likes to abuse status, and since CAP leans more towards stall, status is quite prominent.

I would like to see Safeguard allowed. I mean, it might very well end up not being used at all, but it's not overpowering to be able to stop yourself from getting statused. Maybe some people like to play a team that cripples through status, and this Pokemon can come in and slow down their strategy. It's not going to break the game, and it could turn out to be a rather interesting use.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

So no Metal Burst because it of less prediction? I don't understand how less prediction on the user part is bad? Metal Burst still requires some form of prediction in order to use it.

BTW, why no Yawn or Stealth Rock. Neither one seem overpowering to me.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

BTW, why no Yawn or Stealth Rock. Neither one seem overpowering to me.

Stealth Rock ain't too bad. I think Yawn is looked down upon because:

-It's a sleeper, which people are tired of.
-Generally, it's another status inducer, and people feel that TW/SS is enough.
-Since Whirlwind is being supported, Yawn doesn't need to be there.
-Whirlwind is enough of hazing the opponent out of there.

I say controversial on Yawn myself for now.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

1. Why the heck would you Calm Mind against a Tyranitar? +1 Surf 2HKOs a max HP Tar.

2. If Tyranitar runs high Speed, it won't have max HP. In any case, Vacuum Wave has priority.

Calm Mind is possible only if you don't believe that an improved Suicune would be broken. Personally, I feel that a Suicune with higher Defence and SAtk and better STABs would be uber.

1. +1 Vacuum Wave does laughable damage, around 30-38%

2. 80 spe is enough for Tyranitar to out run CAP8 with no speed investment, leaving it with 176 HP Evs, still plenty to survive and 2HKO.

I honestly don't think CM is broken. I need to find some more examples to test.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

1. +1 Vacuum Wave does laughable damage, around 30-38%

2. 80 spe is enough for Tyranitar to out run CAP8 with no speed investment, leaving it with 176 HP Evs, still plenty to survive and 2HKO.

I honestly don't think CM is broken. I need to find some more examples to test.

Okay, so you want to outspeed CAP8? Fine. That requires you to boost your Speed up to 197 from 158, requiring 156 EVs. Assuming 252 Attack, that leaves 100 HP Evs.

I use Calm Mind as you switch Tyranitar in. You outrun me and use Earthquake. We already know that doesn't OHKO. I hit you with Surf:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (95 Base Power): 188 - 222 (51.37% - 60.66%)

Then I use priority Vacuum Wave:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (40 Base Power): 156 - 188 (42.62% - 51.37%)

Guranteeing the 2HKO with Stealth Rock.

Naturally, this isn't even assuming a Life Orb or whatever item I feel like using. With Life Orb:

484 Atk vs 354 Def & 366 HP (40 Base Power): 204 - 244 (55.74% - 66.67%)

Who needs Surf, anyway? That's a 2HKO with priority.