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2v2 Ladder
- Thread starter rory
- Start date
I'm not sure how hard this would be to program in, but would it be possible to add a "VGC Clause" that just mimics the VGC metagame without having to add a new ladder? Like Item or Species Clauses, except it covers all those specific rules in one big clause.
Made sense to me, hopefully it's not too hard to adopt.
EDIT: I jsut noticed this was brought up on the first page, but didn't see it answered. If it was, just ignore me. =]
Made sense to me, hopefully it's not too hard to adopt.
EDIT: I jsut noticed this was brought up on the first page, but didn't see it answered. If it was, just ignore me. =]
On that note, until further testing is done, why don't you observe the uber tierlist from Singles as the doubles banlist? Once a doubles metagame is actually underway, more testing can be done to see if certain ubers are less broken in doubles then in singles.
As stated in before posts in this thread I believe sleep clause should well be implemented as seriously having a whole team of sleeping pokemon unable to outspeed their lead is destroying the point of strategy, prediction and team building, basically what pokemon is excluding in-depth mechanics. I agree that a test should be given and I already believe dark void should be banned and a 1 sleep clause pokemon rule should be put in place. But again testing is required somewhat but we can always debate issues and bring up issues to see what we have to test. Hmm banlist again can't be certain until we get some testing but the standard ubers list is what we should go with for the moment.....I think as no other pokes except for combos such as well constructed RD teams look too absolutely broken.
Very much true we can plan ahead all we want but until Colin, DJD and various other developers get SB2 running we won't have enough data and usage ratios to determine tiers, banlists etc. In Game testing perhaps? Hmm it does have some advantages as we do get to test before SB2 comes out. Any ideas on this subject of tasks to clear before the release of SB2?
Alternatively we can just leave the development of the "Smogon" Doubles Metagame alone and instead focus on the VGC (or VGS, however you want to call it) Metagame. The tournaments themselves can act as our guidelines to see what is being used or not, and testing of strategies whether on Wifi ,Nbs, or elsewhere, just like another site I go to is doing quite well. In my opinion, starting out with JAA Rules for the "Smogon" Metagame might be the best route to take instead of just assuming we will have the same tiers in singles as in doubles.
hmm it's a start we could do that. Sorry I cannot take part as wifi is down for me as it disallows me from battling people.
Okay, I might as well have my say.
I truly believe that we should still mimic most of the standard OU (6v6 singles) rules / banned Pokémon. I actually like the first ban-list suggested by Rory in post one. It lowers the amount of tests we'll actually have to do, and I honestly think most of them would be Uber anyway so it'd be a wasted effort.
Sleep Clause should be used for the standard 2v2 (6v6 doubles) rules, as should Freeze Clause. OHKO and Evasion are things I'm less bothered about, but I'd rather see them banned. We'll have the VGC rules as well for seperate tournaments anyway, so we can just use those if everyone's annoyed at not playing Nintendo's metagame.
I truly believe that we should still mimic most of the standard OU (6v6 singles) rules / banned Pokémon. I actually like the first ban-list suggested by Rory in post one. It lowers the amount of tests we'll actually have to do, and I honestly think most of them would be Uber anyway so it'd be a wasted effort.
Sleep Clause should be used for the standard 2v2 (6v6 doubles) rules, as should Freeze Clause. OHKO and Evasion are things I'm less bothered about, but I'd rather see them banned. We'll have the VGC rules as well for seperate tournaments anyway, so we can just use those if everyone's annoyed at not playing Nintendo's metagame.
I'm rather new to Smogon, but I have been lurking around here for at least 6 months(lol). I think that this would be great and certainly give Smogon the edge in VGC tournaments etc. I really like the Uber List Rory posted as it doesn't really make any unnecessary bans. I'd be sure to play this metagame and hopefully help test it out. If only SB2 could come soon :(
Yeh I agree with everything mentioned in this post. The tests should ultimately be based on peoples votes for the pokemon which are arguably much better than their usual tier.
I believe all clauses on the ladder should be kept for 2v2 until further testing proves otherwise. Havak has really summed up nicely what should be implemented.
Nice work,
SF
I've read a lot about Dark Void and Sleep Clause...
But very little about OHKO clause.
I think it should be banned from the start, why? Well, No Guard OHKO move.
Say you have Machamp and Dugtrio (and if you want even a Machoke for some more No Guard action), all moves, including Fissure, will have 100% to hit. This is one sure KO, if not more
I belive that CS Dynamic Punch and Fissure is a deadly combo, I've used it in the battle tower with succes.
The Evasivness Clause, however, shouldn't be banned. You van Haze it away, or snatch it with Psych Up, or even phaze it out (if you van hit it). and this would give Bibarel a better chance.
Now I mentioned Bibarel, does Simple effect your partner?
The way it's stated on Serebii, it does, but I've never tested it...
But very little about OHKO clause.
I think it should be banned from the start, why? Well, No Guard OHKO move.
Say you have Machamp and Dugtrio (and if you want even a Machoke for some more No Guard action), all moves, including Fissure, will have 100% to hit. This is one sure KO, if not more
I belive that CS Dynamic Punch and Fissure is a deadly combo, I've used it in the battle tower with succes.
The Evasivness Clause, however, shouldn't be banned. You van Haze it away, or snatch it with Psych Up, or even phaze it out (if you van hit it). and this would give Bibarel a better chance.
Now I mentioned Bibarel, does Simple effect your partner?
The way it's stated on Serebii, it does, but I've never tested it...
I agree. We can run different sets of rules. Still we need testing to see who's banned and who's not.
then how comes my fissure never missed?
I take it this happened on netbattle. There are many, many errors in the program. Other examples include Tailwind lasting for 5 turns, and Sucker Punch sometimes failing.
Relating to our starting point, I too agree that we should begin with the standard singles rules. It may not be accurate, but this at least gives us some sort of foundation to base our future decisions off of. Anyway, we can do suspect tests in the future, so it's not as if starting this way will never allow us to reach an ideal metagame.
Also, we must consider what sort of metagame will be most attractive to newcoming players (we want this to be successful and popular, after all). I think that an uber carnival would turn a lot of potential players away, both because it looks "noobish" and that it's horribly similar to the wifi on PBR (thus not really being anything new).
We should still go ahead with the two week test though.
I have a few thoughts...
The ban list on the original page looks good to me. I question Manaphy a bit because of how popular Rain Dance is in doubles, but I suppose we'll find out. Oh and I might have missed something, but shouldn't Soul Dew be banned if the Lati twins are not? Or is that being tested too?
As far as sleep clause goes, I think some people are overestimating Dark Void. It's really not as broken as it may seem. Dark Void has the advantage of putting two opponents asleep at the same time, but it also has a decent amount of disadvantages and counters (and there's the fact that the only supposed OU Pokemon to use the move would be Smeargle). But honestly, I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole 'sleep clause, no sleep clause' argument. I kind of lean towards there being some kind of sleep clause because it seems ridiculous that there is the possibility of a whole team being asleep at one time. However, there is also the point that stall does not work as well in doubles as it does in singles, so the probability of a whole team, or the majority of a team being asleep at once is extremely unlikely. Sleep moves are also easier to block in doubles than in singles simply because there are more Pokemon on the field.
As for the other clauses, it seems like some of them don't really need to be tested IMO, esp. species clause. It seems like evasion and OHKO wouldn't need to be tested either since in both cases they are banned in singles because the moves are based on luck rather than skill iirc. I suppose it doesn't hurt to test them though...
The ban list on the original page looks good to me. I question Manaphy a bit because of how popular Rain Dance is in doubles, but I suppose we'll find out. Oh and I might have missed something, but shouldn't Soul Dew be banned if the Lati twins are not? Or is that being tested too?
As far as sleep clause goes, I think some people are overestimating Dark Void. It's really not as broken as it may seem. Dark Void has the advantage of putting two opponents asleep at the same time, but it also has a decent amount of disadvantages and counters (and there's the fact that the only supposed OU Pokemon to use the move would be Smeargle). But honestly, I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole 'sleep clause, no sleep clause' argument. I kind of lean towards there being some kind of sleep clause because it seems ridiculous that there is the possibility of a whole team being asleep at one time. However, there is also the point that stall does not work as well in doubles as it does in singles, so the probability of a whole team, or the majority of a team being asleep at once is extremely unlikely. Sleep moves are also easier to block in doubles than in singles simply because there are more Pokemon on the field.
As for the other clauses, it seems like some of them don't really need to be tested IMO, esp. species clause. It seems like evasion and OHKO wouldn't need to be tested either since in both cases they are banned in singles because the moves are based on luck rather than skill iirc. I suppose it doesn't hurt to test them though...
Jukain
Guest
As far as Sleep Clause vs No Sleep Clause goes, I would personally prefer no sleep clause, as Smeragle's Dark Void can be countered effectively while maintaining team synergy. (I have an example team I can post if needed). A Taunt/Safeguard user with Lum/Chesto Berry can save a team from Smeargle if used correctly. The Freeze and Evasion clauses are not as big of a problem in my opinion.
On another note, you cannot have Scarf Jirachi and Scarf Smeargle on the same team if Item Clause is in effect.
I would like to see:
6v6 Double Battles
No Sleep Clause (Arguable)
No Evasion Clause
No Freeze Clause
Species Clause
Item Clause
If an attack knocks out both players’ last Pokémon, the player that used the attack loses the match. (Explosion, Selfdestruct, Double-Edge, Volt Tackle, Flare Blitz, Take Down, Submission, Brave Bird, Wood Hammer, Head Smash, Struggle, Perish Song, and Destiny Bond, Life Orb)
If an environmental effect knocks out both players’ last Pokémon, the result of the match is a tie (Hail, Sandstorm, or Sunny Day)
If all remaining Pokémon are knocked out due to Stealth Rock or Spikes, the result of the match is a tie.
If a Pokémon’s ability or held item results in all remaining Pokémon being knocked out, the result of the match is a tie.(Aftermath, Liquid Ooze, Rough Skin, Jaboca Berry, and Sticky Barb)
This would be the banlist/Uber List:
Mewtwo
Mew
Lugia
Ho-Oh
Celebi
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Jirachi
Deoxys (All Formes)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina (All Formes)
Phione
Manaphy
Darkrai
Shaymin (All Formes)
Control over nicknames is also something to consider, although it is very trivial.
On another note, you cannot have Scarf Jirachi and Scarf Smeargle on the same team if Item Clause is in effect.
I would like to see:
6v6 Double Battles
No Sleep Clause (Arguable)
No Evasion Clause
No Freeze Clause
Species Clause
Item Clause
If an attack knocks out both players’ last Pokémon, the player that used the attack loses the match. (Explosion, Selfdestruct, Double-Edge, Volt Tackle, Flare Blitz, Take Down, Submission, Brave Bird, Wood Hammer, Head Smash, Struggle, Perish Song, and Destiny Bond, Life Orb)
If an environmental effect knocks out both players’ last Pokémon, the result of the match is a tie (Hail, Sandstorm, or Sunny Day)
If all remaining Pokémon are knocked out due to Stealth Rock or Spikes, the result of the match is a tie.
If a Pokémon’s ability or held item results in all remaining Pokémon being knocked out, the result of the match is a tie.(Aftermath, Liquid Ooze, Rough Skin, Jaboca Berry, and Sticky Barb)
This would be the banlist/Uber List:
Mewtwo
Mew
Lugia
Ho-Oh
Celebi
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Jirachi
Deoxys (All Formes)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina (All Formes)
Phione
Manaphy
Darkrai
Shaymin (All Formes)
Control over nicknames is also something to consider, although it is very trivial.
