Nation in Crisis: The U.S.A. Health Care Debate

What is your stance on the healthcare debate?

  • For it. I believe the government should fully provide care.

    Votes: 66 40.2%
  • Somewhat for it. I belive the government should help cover healthcare costs.

    Votes: 33 20.1%
  • Against it. I think the government should not help with healthcare costs.

    Votes: 43 26.2%
  • I really do not know about the subject, but I am curious.

    Votes: 22 13.4%

  • Total voters
    164
I don't believe that I presented it as a fine for tax evasion.
Even with the reduced numbers, it's still a "tax increase on those making under $150,000 a year".
I don't agree with the plan either, and I most certainly don't want the President to win Republican support. The government working together is a terrifying thought :pirate:
 
I'd just like to point out that it is a social aspect of the British that we are are perenially depressed, and like to complain about things. We get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of denigrating our state and country. However, this is all for show. Underneath, the vast majority of us support the NHS entirely. MP Hannan represents an absolute minority opinion, and he should not be believed. The NHS is indeed a force for good, and very few politicians would ever raise their voice against it here. As a nation, we have a much better health record than America, and if that means playing a few extra pence out of each pound, as opposed to thousands if we encounter an unlucky injury, then I and most others would be happy to do so.
 
Deck Knight said:
Is it difficult to live in a world where everyone except you is an untrustworthy, lumbering buffoon who needs a third party panel to make their decisions for them? How is it you can't trust individuals to care for their own well being but you can trust panels comprised entirely of such boorish dullards?
Perhaps you should ask insurance companies the same question.
 

Firestorm

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I don't believe that I presented it as a fine for tax evasion.
Even with the reduced numbers, it's still a "tax increase on those making under $150,000 a year".
I don't agree with the plan either, and I most certainly don't want the President to win Republican support. The government working together is a terrifying thought :pirate:
A government built on compromise is more appealing to me than a government with a majority which lets them do whatever the hell they want. I really wish the Canadian government functioned like it was supposed to. Instead we have MPs who follow whatever the fuck their leader tells them to instead of the constituents they represent and parties that would rather trigger an election than reach compromises to pass legislation. Ahh human nature. The same thing that stops Communism and Libertarianism from working interestingly enough.
 
A government built on compromise is more appealing to me than a government with a majority which lets them do whatever the hell they want. I really wish the Canadian government functioned like it was supposed to. Instead we have MPs who follow whatever the fuck their leader tells them to instead of the constituents they represent and parties that would rather trigger an election than reach compromises to pass legislation. Ahh human nature. The same thing that stops Communism and Libertarianism from working interestingly enough.

I agree with this; in the US politicians don't really listen to the voters anymore. They do whatever they feel will let them stay in office, and other then that they typically don't do things in the voters' interests.

itt Greed kills communism, Stupidity kill libertarianism. :pirate:
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
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A government built on compromise is more appealing to me than a government with a majority which lets them do whatever the hell they want.
Compromise in government = the politicians gain at the expense of the people.

Disunity in government = the politicians are too busy fighting to steal (as much) from the people.

I kind of notice how the same human nature that defenders of the State apply to justify it's existence is never, ever applied to the persons who make up the State.

"Human nature sucks so let's give a group of humans the guns and legitimate power over us and tell them to protect us"
 

Firestorm

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is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
A group of humans who are held responsible to the people they were put into power by? If they fuck up, they're out of a job. That's the point of democracy. I know you don't believe in it, but it's a pretty basic concept. The problem for me is more how it's set up right now than the idea of a person representing a neighbourhood.
 

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
A group of humans who are held responsible to the people they were put into power by? If they fuck up, they're out of a job. That's the point of democracy. I know you don't believe in it, but it's a pretty basic concept. The problem for me is more how it's set up right now than the idea of a person representing a neighbourhood.
And you say my idea of the free market is utopian.

The question is, who are they replaced with? Usually the exact same sort of people with different rhetoric.

The problem with democracy is that having coercive power over people attracts exactly the opposite kind of people you want having coercive power over people - generally, people who desire control go into politics, people who desire to innovate and create ideas stay out of poltics.
 

Deck Knight

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Perhaps you should ask insurance companies the same question.
Funny coincidence, my job is essentially to make sure claims sent to insurance companies get paid, thereby ensuring the continued fiscal solvency of our doctor client base. Generally if the patient follows the rules, reads their policy, and gets a referral as outlined in their plan, the insurance company will pay. Many insurance companies even allow backdated referrals, although that is getting curbed more and more these days.

In either case, you don't seem to have an intellectual problem with denying people care, you just have a problem if profit is involved in keeping the arbiter afloat. After all, you can't have a death panel that has the potential to become insolvent, right? Of course the death panel should be able to print its own money and have legal immunity.

There is also something called an appeals process, which is where we can correct claims because either the doctor or patient made an error somewhere along the way. Somehow I doubt a monolithic government panel concerned primarily with cutting costs will have a robust appeals process. After all, you can't shop around if government is the only player (and indeed, payer) in town.

The government doesn't get a bad rap if someone dies because they denied insurance coverage. People slip through the cracks, you see. Trust us, and not your lying eyes.

There is nothing to worry about, granny isn't going to die.

Quite frankly it sickens me how often "end of life" care comes up. The last group of people I want forming panels for euthanizing citizens is the government. If the most brilliant solution government can offer is to cut costs by slashing lives, clearly these Rhodes Scholars are unfit to administer health treatment of any kind.

Firestorm said:
A group of humans who are held responsible to the people they were put into power by? If they fuck up, they're out of a job. That's the point of democracy. I know you don't believe in it, but it's a pretty basic concept. The problem for me is more how it's set up right now than the idea of a person representing a neighbourhood.
Health care bureaucrats are not elected officials. If they kill your mother because they denied her care, tough luck. The next three elections probably aren't going to change the makeup of the death panel. You can't sue the Healthcare Operations Treatment and Evaluation (HOPE) commission, or the Life Options Vetting and Evaluation (LOVE) committee.

And who could oppose HOPE and LOVE? They already have NICE in Britain.

I do not agree with this plan by Max Baucus. I'd be more in line with Obama's no fines, public option idea for universal health care. Tell your president to stop trying to win Republican support. There's no working together when all they want to do is play politics.
Obama doesn't need Republican support. He hasn't met with them since May. His problem is Blue Dog Democrats, not Republicans. The assertion Republicans are "playing politics" is laughable. They don't even have enough seats for a party-line filibuster in the Senate.
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
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oh my lord
death panels
now we're rolling

Also I like the Jon Stewart's American Insurance Department Solutions name better!
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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oh my lord
death panels
now we're rolling

Also I like the Jon Stewart's American Insurance Department Solutions name better!
What then, would you call the board of individuals that decides which treatments get paid for and which do not?

Under the current system, no such "panel" actually exists, at least not for the specialists I serve. Provided the claim is coded properly and the patient has not used up their benefits already, the claim will pay. The only "board" making a decision is the motherboard in the insurance company's mainframe.

Making government the single payer would change this system. Government exists to grow itself and add layers of redundancy and busywork. Assigning a single machine to do the task would be far too efficient. They will pay a host of actuaries to come up with new algorithms ostensibly designed to improve delivery which will instead muddle up the system. For skeptics, do remember the government is the same people who brought you the United States Tax Code, easily among the Top Ten Most Convoluted Documents of All Time.

Now I could be wrong and they could just bring the Medicare model to a larger scale. The only problem with that is that Medicare is bankrupt. Ultimately in order to expand health care access you need more doctors. No one wants to be a doctor in a system where you go to college for 12 years amassing student loans only to have the government tell you what you must charge for services under penalty of law. Again look at Canada. Forget having enough doctors, in many instances they don't have enough beds for patients.
 

imperfectluck

Banned deucer.
Let's all have fewer kids. Population increase and our unpreparedness for it is what causes this problem in the first place, in my opinion.
 
I'm heavily against it. Health care shouldn't be mandatory, and people don't need one more thing they're forced to pay for. If somebody wants it, they can buy and pay for it. If someone doesn't want it, wants to save some more money, or doesn't have enough money to spare, they shouldn't be forced to pay for it.

No.

Population increase and prosperity go hand in hand. If anything, we should have more kids.
That's certainly an odd way to look at it. No, we shouldn't be having more kids, because this world is overpopulated enough. And it's already bad enough that a huge majority of people live and die, having accomplished nothing and done nothing for the human race. We don't need more flawed, idiot people. Humans are the worst thing to ever have happened to this world.
 
I'll say that in Australia, we have a similar system to what is being proposed, and it works, not perfectly, but better than the system in America.

I think that everyone deserves health care. There are plenty of people in terrible situations that can't afford it and need it. And, I'll prematurely say (because it's been said on another forum), no, these people are not lazy, no, working hard doesn't always mean that you will prosper, in fact, many of these people work much harder than the richest of America ever had. And I think that this is a case where we should be saying "could somebody *please* think of the children!" (Where's that from?). Many children, who can't pay for their own health care, under any realistic situation, won't get it, because the parents can't pay for it, and in that case, I don't care if the parents are lazy, the children haven't done anything wrong.

I see it as being similar to public schools, it should be there, for free, for everyone, but you should be able to choose the private option if you want. And if it's going to save lives, I don't see why it shouldn't be coming from the taxpayers.
 
That's certainly an odd way to look at it. No, we shouldn't be having more kids, because this world is overpopulated enough. And it's already bad enough that a huge majority of people live and die, having accomplished nothing and done nothing for the human race. We don't need more flawed, idiot people. Humans are the worst thing to ever have happened to this world.
population growth has been slowing since 1963. in most of the western world it's barely above replacement levels now. in europe, the population is actually declining. if you're still concerned, may i suggest suicide
 

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