Yomi and You

[Basics]

Now, any competetive fighting game players out there will know what yomi means. "Yomi" is a Japanese word meaning "knowing the mind of the opponent." If one can condition his enemies to act in a certain way, you can capitalize on it. Conditioning and yomi are completely vital aspect of Pokemon, otherwise your 'prediction' essentially boils down to 'educated guessing'. This is something I see more often in competetive Pokemon than I should! Anyways, here goes.

If your opponent knows what you are going to do, he is said to be on a different "yomi layer" than you. He knew what you would do (yomi 1), and he did something to counter it (yomi 2)! Next time, maybe you will do something to counter his counter (yomi 3).

It is standard in a game that there are 3 layers of yomi for a situation. Yomi 0 is simply using the most powerful attack (typically the one with the lowest risk : reward ratio) in your repository. Yomi 1 is countering that attack, Yomi 2 is countering Yomi 1, and Yomi 3 is countering Yomi 2. I'm just going to quote here, since I couldn't say it any better myself:

...[A] game need only support counters up to Yomi Layer 3, since Yomi Layer 4 can loop around back to Yomi Layer 0.

Let’s say I have a move (we’ll call it "m") that’s really, really good. I want to do it all the time. (Here’s where the inequality of risk/reward comes in. If all my moves are equally good, this whole thing falls apart.) The "level 0" case here is discovering how good that move is and doing it all the time. Then, you will catch on and know that I’m likely to do that move a lot (yomi layer 1), so you’ll need a counter move (we’ll call it "c1"). You’ve stopped me from doing m. You’ve shut me down. I need a way to stop you from doing c1. I need a counter to your counter, or "c2."

Now you don’t know what to expect from me anymore. I might do m, or I might do c2. Interestingly, I probably want to do m, but I just do c2 to scare you into not doing c1 anymore. Then I can sneak in more m.

You don’t have adequate choices yet. I can alternate between m and c2, but all you have is c1. You need a counter to c2, which we’ll call c3. Now we each have two moves.

Me: m, c2 You: c1, c3.

Now I need a counter to c3. The tendency might be to create a c4 move, but it’s not necessary. The move m can serve as my c4. Basically, if you expect me to do my counter to your counter (rather than my original good move m), then I don’t need a counter that; I can just do go ahead and do the original move…if the game is designed that way. Basically, supporting moves up Yomi Layer 3 is the minimum set of counters needed have a complete set of options, assuming Yomi Layer 4 wraps around back to Layer 0.

Yomi is based heavily on the risk : reward system, which is why it is so prevalent in Pokemon. A good player (Player A) will recognize that Metagross players (Player B) love using Meteor Mash because it does so much damage to pretty much anything (yomi 0), so Player A doesn't get to switch in his Salamence as often as he'd like to. He decides that he's going to use a Steelix to counter Metagross' painful Meteor Mash (yomi 1). It works for a while, but then the Player B realizes that Steelix keeps messing with him, so now he put Earthquake on his Metagross to smack Steelix around the next time he comes in (yomi 2). This was, actually, what Player A wanted all along. Now, when he thinks that Metagross will use Earthquake, he switches in Salamence (yomi 3). Of course, Player B can still out-predict him and use Meteor Mash. This isn't Yomi 4 of course, it just loops back to Yomi 0! This is what Player B wanted all along!

I hope I made this clearer for you guys!

 

[Brood_Star]

Now, any competetive fighting game players out there will know what yomi means. "Yomi" is a Japanese word meaning "knowing the mind of the opponent." If one can condition his enemies to act in a certain way, you can capitalize on it. Conditioning and yomi are completely vital aspect of Pokemon, otherwise your 'prediction' essentially boils down to 'educated guessing'. This is something I see more often in competetive Pokemon than I should! Anyways, here goes.

I didn't.

The guide is good, but don't expect that many people to learn from it

 

[JeffroBaggins]

So it's one of those, "I knew you'd know that I knew"

That's cool. Gracias, Senior Basics

 

[SpaceFlare]

Cool article here. Just shows how Pokemon has mindgames in it

 

[obi]

I've actually been meaning to post something like this (with more psychological warfare type stuff), and I probably would have linked that very article. :)

 

[Nate]

To be brutally honest, I don't see what use this article has. It's beyond the reach of people just learning the game, and it's too simplistic a metaphor to be applicable for pokemon, really.

The part of it that I thought was both interesting and effective from my own experiences is the section that deals with the conditioning of one's opponent. Please expand on this section.

 

[RicepigeonKKM]

For a sec, I thought this topic was gonna be about Azumanga so I was like "wtf is this doing here" and then I read and I'm like "oh..."

But yeah, Pokemon is based alot on guessing (unless some (BAN ME PLEASE) uses Dugtrio)

 

[moomoonerd]

The part I get confused about, in your example with the Metagross, is how do you know what they'll predict - when they stop bringing in Steelix and bring in Salamence. I had almost the same experience, except on the defending side and with Dragonite and Weezing but no Salamence. I don't quite get how to make my predictions less of an educated guess, since there's no way I can be sure of what my opponent's thinking, and if I try to condition him to bring in Salamence (with the CBGross example again), I don't know whether he'll fall for it or if he'll figure me out, predicting my prediction, and bring in Steelix again.

 

[ToP]

Here is a better example using m, C1, C2, and C3.

I have my CB Salamence. It's pretty powerful, it KOs a lot of stuff. But you can counter my m, CB Salamence, with your C1, Skarmory. However, I am prepared for this. I have C2, Magneton. However, what if you have a C3, a Dugtrio? I now have the option of using m and predicting Dugtrio or predicting Skarmory and using C2.

By using m to counter Dugtrio, C3, it is in effect C4, but since it's main function is m, it won't really be considered C4. It's like closing a box by putting each edge over the edge just to the left of it, including the 4th edge over the first one. In this way each edge (or layer) covers (or counters) another one.

 

[Basics]

Yeah, looking back on it, I admit this wasn't the best work. I'm going to redo this guide, and try to make it alot more easily understandable. It's alot easier to explain in fighting games than it is in Pokemon, since the risk : reward ratio in Pokemon is extremely complex. In a game like SF, your risk : reward is essentially

Damage: High, Low, Medium
Knockdown: Yes/No
Reset: Yes/No
Frame Advantage on Block: Yes/No

In Pokemon, you have to conisder the entirety of your opponent's team. If my team's based on a Heracross sweep, I'm obviously more inclined to doing whatever I can to damage your Skarmory. This means I'm more likely to use my Suicune's Surf than his Roar. Of course, I know this means that you're more likely to try to switch in your Gyarados, so I need to look at that. Also, I need to consider the following: a Surf on your Skarmory's going to damage your team alot more than a Roar against your Gyarados switching in, etc. etc.

All these things kind of add up, and make for a complex, and even subjective situation. This is part of why Pokemon is so great, but only when both people are fully aware of the situation. Otherwise games can get kind of boring.

And lol, I'm in the process of convincing Sirlin to play Pokemon. It's more difficult than I imagined it would be, however.

 

[Hot Nikkels]

Thing about this is that if you predict wrong you can lose one of your Yomi layers, such as the Dugtrio/Mence/Skarm situation above, and actually sort like you just told me in another thread. Making this post pointless. Amen.

 

[sxcdude]

wow, i got that last one, its like, if you have four connecter things on your life support tube and they all work together to keep you alive. if you break one. you die. how crude.