You need to watch for both Ice Bean AND Boiling Water. All in all, switching Ononokusu into a bulky water is risky. And a 2x SE move with 95 Base power will not be doing "shit for damage" to something with 76/70 defences and no investment, even if the user is bulky.
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Haxorus
- Thread starter R.B.G.
- Start date
57.3% - 67.6%
You just hit a sweeper with a super effective hit. That's pretty pitiful damage, especially when I'm still liable to either set up or just KO right away. And we're still taking into account that they're not hitting you with this blindly on the first turn. Admittedly, I did forget about Boiling Water, though, but that's just even more incentive for our sweepers to start running Lum Berry.
You just hit a sweeper with a super effective hit. That's pretty pitiful damage, especially when I'm still liable to either set up or just KO right away. And we're still taking into account that they're not hitting you with this blindly on the first turn. Admittedly, I did forget about Boiling Water, though, but that's just even more incentive for our sweepers to start running Lum Berry.
I'm using Haban Ono (DD/Outrage/EQ/Taunt with Mold Breaker) with screen support and I get 2+ kills over half the time (and I mean half his appearances, not half his appearances with screens up and a free switch.) Got all the way up to #11 with him and CM Kerudio as my setup sweepers. Enemy Ono give me almost no trouble to face - the CBer and boosters with no resist berries tend to die without accomplishing anything.
I don't think I'd use him without Haban Berry, and he's also tricky because I don't think he works as a 'throwin' pokemon - either make him a team centerpiece, run him as a stallbreaker with Taunt, or use a different Choice Bander that can actually come in on things. at least Salamence has Intimidate to work with.
Honestly I'm leaning towards Adamant on DD-Ono. What are you really achieving by running Jolly? You're still not going to outrun ScarfChomp, ScarfRachi, and the rest of the base 100 crew as they're going to be running + natures just to thwart Ono. No point entering a race you can't win. I'm tempted to just pour it all into attack to better differentiate him from DDMence. Jolly Ono is 393 Atk and 322 Spe whereas Jolly Mence is 369 Atk and 328 Spe. That extra 24 Atk points just doesn't make up for the crucial speed difference, Intimidate/Overconfidence, unpredictability factor, mostly better typing and generally better bulk that you get by using Salamence. With Adamant you have a whopping 63 more Atk than DDMence and you'll still be outrunning all the same things after a Dragon Dance.
439 - Adamant +1 Ononokusu
442 - neutral nature +1 Sazandora
445 - neutral nature +1 Genosect
447 - positive nature +1 Rotom-A
448 - neutral nature +1 base 100's (Jirachi, Salamence etc)
459 - neutral nature +1 base 90's (Lucario, Roserade etc)
463 - neutral nature +1 base 105's (Kojondo, Zoroark etc)
475 - positive nature +1 base 95's (Hihidaruma, Gliscor etc)
478 - neutral nature +1 base 110's (Gengar, Latias etc)
483 - Jolly +1 Ononokusu
So it seems like there's quite a few things when I lay it out like that but most of those will be non-existent. The 'standard' for Scarf Sazandora and Genosect are Timid so they'll outrun you regardless of nature. Rotom-A is not gonna see much use without his Ghost typing. The base 100's will always run positive nature. Base 90s with a Scarf...um, Scarf P-Z I suppose? Not exactly common. The base 105's will always run a positive nature too. Don't expect to see many Scarfed base 95's or neutral 110's in standard play either.
So why is Jolly the standard? Is there some huge threat in that range that is worth such a big drop in Atk from 648 all the way down to 589? Sample calc:
+1 Jolly Dragon Claw vs 252/252+ Vaporeon - 45% - 53% (less than 1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers)
+1 Adamant Dragon Claw vs 252/252+ Vaporeon - 50% - 59% (73% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers)
439 - Adamant +1 Ononokusu
442 - neutral nature +1 Sazandora
445 - neutral nature +1 Genosect
447 - positive nature +1 Rotom-A
448 - neutral nature +1 base 100's (Jirachi, Salamence etc)
459 - neutral nature +1 base 90's (Lucario, Roserade etc)
463 - neutral nature +1 base 105's (Kojondo, Zoroark etc)
475 - positive nature +1 base 95's (Hihidaruma, Gliscor etc)
478 - neutral nature +1 base 110's (Gengar, Latias etc)
483 - Jolly +1 Ononokusu
So it seems like there's quite a few things when I lay it out like that but most of those will be non-existent. The 'standard' for Scarf Sazandora and Genosect are Timid so they'll outrun you regardless of nature. Rotom-A is not gonna see much use without his Ghost typing. The base 100's will always run positive nature. Base 90s with a Scarf...um, Scarf P-Z I suppose? Not exactly common. The base 105's will always run a positive nature too. Don't expect to see many Scarfed base 95's or neutral 110's in standard play either.
So why is Jolly the standard? Is there some huge threat in that range that is worth such a big drop in Atk from 648 all the way down to 589? Sample calc:
+1 Jolly Dragon Claw vs 252/252+ Vaporeon - 45% - 53% (less than 1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers)
+1 Adamant Dragon Claw vs 252/252+ Vaporeon - 50% - 59% (73% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers)
Why the hell would you switch an offensive Pokemon into a bulky water? Surf + Ice Beam from even a Swampert will 2HKO (and again, good luck with Boiling Water). Tinker Bell's Leaf Storm does 61.4% - 72.7% to 0/0 Ononokusu. Now I send in my Skarmory... Brave Bird OHKOs. 76/90/70 are frail as shit, what are you talking about?? On the special side, it is worse off than Infernape, who has 76/71. Physically, it is decent, but it is less bulky than Kingdra, who has a few 4x resists to work with. Sure, it can take a hit or two, but that can be said for plenty of Pokemon and resisted hits.
Still, one cannot underestimate its brute power, but people need to find that special niche instead of suggesting (ludicrously so) it can switch into shit like Vaporeon or Skarmory.
You've pretty much showed the data that I refused to show after I started running adamant DD Bulky Ono xP.
But yea, I've been trying to preach that over the past few pages with DD Onos since 97 speed is nice, but it really wont be getting him anywhere important. Max speed EV's is fine, but he only needs to place 80 Speed EV's, which means after 2 DD's he's free to run amuck unless something faster then 500 Speed is around. With that, Running max attack, or even running 100 atk stats is totally viable with Ono since it doesn't even lose much of his attack power. Of course, this is also how I've been running the bulky sets for the majority of the time.
But, IMO, Jolly shouldn't be the standard, and is much weaker compared to the none speedy/Bulkier Ono's. Even SD Ono doesn't need too much speed to be faster then some walls.
I agree, Adamant is probably the best nature for Ono in any situation, otherwise it's outclassed.
Generally speaking, anything that may be faster then it even while running lower speed stats will be afraid of boosted ground, and Dragon attacks. I have a bunch more data from all my recent wifi fights and such, but it really rarely gets countered outside of it's absolute Hard counters. His key points, IMO, would have to be his blistering attack, and average bulk, as well as mold breaker. From there, it'll be dependent on what set you really want to run. Although regardless of the set, for the DD Ono speed is not a major perk as it'll already be boosting up it's speed through the usage of dragon dance, and as Lee as already stated, wont matter much since his checks will still outspeed him without the second DD (and 80 speed EV's).
Adamant should definitely be a better choice on any set (especially DD, and CB). SD abuses this even more by becoming ridiculously powerful in just one boost. And even with all that, bulk can still be invested into to help it survive the physical attack oppositions (and some special attackers).
Adamant should definitely be a better choice on any set (especially DD, and CB). SD abuses this even more by becoming ridiculously powerful in just one boost. And even with all that, bulk can still be invested into to help it survive the physical attack oppositions (and some special attackers).
Yes, Jolly will help Ononokusu outspeed base 95 scarf pokemon but in most situations I would chose Adamant as it is more useful overall.
Kyumeru is problematic (Lee also has positive base 95's on his chart), but using a specific pokemon for it like most problems will help get around it. Jolly Ono can have those perks per say, but I'll always take my Adamant choice over it, especially if I partner Blissey with Ono (which, I usually do). Suprisingly, the attack to speed ratio is alot bigger then it was first preceived as it's extra large attack stat can make a larger difference then the speed stat.
Ndota- 80 speed EV's with 2 DD's will bring him up to atleast 500, so yes, It'll allow him to outspeed majority of his checks. If your going to run the 252 atk EV's either HP or Def will do just fine (you can split it a bit too). EV's Sp. Def doesn't help it's case much, so placing EV's in that still wont stop it from taking huge damage from special attackers. 252 Atk, 80 spe, 172 Hp sounds good though. Splitting the HP EV's to 100 HP, and 72 Def might work as well.
Edit- Actually, Jirachi can work as well against Kyumeru if he really becomes a problem.
Ndota- 80 speed EV's with 2 DD's will bring him up to atleast 500, so yes, It'll allow him to outspeed majority of his checks. If your going to run the 252 atk EV's either HP or Def will do just fine (you can split it a bit too). EV's Sp. Def doesn't help it's case much, so placing EV's in that still wont stop it from taking huge damage from special attackers. 252 Atk, 80 spe, 172 Hp sounds good though. Splitting the HP EV's to 100 HP, and 72 Def might work as well.
Edit- Actually, Jirachi can work as well against Kyumeru if he really becomes a problem.
but it's nothing to write home about
not to mention it doesn't have any resistances
and azumarill has 100 HP, which is actually quite a bit more than 76
2 other reasons for more speed that might be worth considering:
1) enough speed to pass Timid Scarf Gengar after 2 DDs (for 'pass everything' reasons, much more important if you're supporting it with Screens or something like that)
2) enough speed to pass max speed Jolteon after 1 DD (so you can EQ it without having to worry about Hidden Power Ice)
both can be achieved easily with Adamant and leave room for HP EVs.
Did you miss when someone pointed out that Infernape is slightly more specially bulky than Ononokusu?
You are way off base. 100/80/80 >>> 76/90/70.
Azumarill has a better defensive typing to boot.
most of the good sweepers also have more than that :/
and those resistans are ...meh
We wouldn't want our trusty Axeface to eat an Ice Bean.
I absolutely love this thing, and it's nice because my favorites usually suck pretty hardcore. Granted, Axeface could end up sucking, you never know, but that's one damn sexy Attack score.
The thing is though, from what I remember, Weavile can't OKO garchomp with ice-shard unless it's holding focus band. and that's with a 4x weakness. It's barely going to 2KO ononokusu, and onono's defenses are almost as good, so without that 4x weakness Ononokusu isn't as vulnerable to ice as many of the other dragon sweepers. This is what worries me the most.
Also, totally should have had a grass/dragon this gen. pff.
Also, totally should have had a grass/dragon this gen. pff.
But the thing is, there are pokemon with much worse defenses, much worse offenses and much worse typing who fill a similar role and die to strong hits, or hang on by a hair. He's really quite gifted in the bulk department compared to a lot of pokemon with more than 130 in any given attack stat and 90+ in speed.
Weavile is one example. With it's HP and special defense it can sometimes take a neutral special hit without being KOed, but won't stand up to physical attacks. Onono is really a lot stronger in both of those, so I really can't see it being swatted down too easily, even by +1 ice attacks off non-stab pokemon. And then it just uses dragon dance and...
Weavile is one example. With it's HP and special defense it can sometimes take a neutral special hit without being KOed, but won't stand up to physical attacks. Onono is really a lot stronger in both of those, so I really can't see it being swatted down too easily, even by +1 ice attacks off non-stab pokemon. And then it just uses dragon dance and...