One is a clause. The other is an ability. They both deal with evasion to some extent, but they aren't the same thing. Not even close. See my post:
for why stat booster vs Inconsistent does not come down to just evasion.
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Moody
- Thread starter Wichu
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I was talking about "Evasion clause" vs. "Banning Inconsistent", silly.
Again, if you're getting your stat booster toxic'd, you deserved it.
How exactly are you supposed to stop it if you're busy setting up? I suppose if it's a steel type, but steel isn't really a classic setting-up attacking type.
Yeah, except for one thing. You're limited in the amount of stats you can boost, plus you can't boost evasion. Plus, even if you finish setting up, what do you do then? If they haven't got an evasion boost yet, they probably will have after some more mindless Substitute - Protect stall. Also, if they have an attacking move, they'll probably have killed you already, and if they have Baton Pass then you're screwed.
Like I said, carrying Sub might be a good idea (like Garchomp does, for example). But then again, if it really turns out that the Inconsistent user has ONE attacking move (it cannot have more if it carries protect/sub/toxic), pp stalling might be an even better idea than setup.
There's also Special Attack, y'know. Octillery can then OHKO you after enough boosts, while your +6 attack is neutralized by its +6 defense.
Each Surf is going to OHKO a Sub, and if you have leftovers, you can Sub 5 times in a row if you start at full health, so you can stall 6 Surf PPs while it'll be left with 18 for the rest of your team.
Neutralizing it is basically what you want as +0 Garchomp has more than enough power to deal with +0 Octillery. Special Attack is an issue alongside with Speed and Evasion, but Octillery should have at most 2 of these at +6 once you are ready to start attacking. I know, there is this ONE combination where it get +6 evasion, +2 Speed and +4 SpAtk in first 3 turns of substitute that would allow it to be ahead of your setup, but heck, that's less reliable than double-critting your counter.
Well, I would not PP stall with my setup sweeper. ;) (If my setup sweeper does not boost the right defense stat, that is. CM Rankulus can do ridiculous things to any special inconsistent user... xD)
Did this finally get banned? Can I go play PO now?
It got banned but the ban isn't in effect yet (iirc).
As soon as it gets +2 Evasion, it's likely going to get ahead; at that point, you're going to give them 1 free turn for every 2 turns you successfully attack, so a single miss allows a single substitute to stall for 4 turns, which is enough to break even HP wise with leftovers.
You'll only be able to stall 6 PP with ANYTHING that has just sub. Sub + Protect can probably stall out 12 PP if you have perfect prediction, but that leaves 12 more for the rest of your team.
Edit:
It beats Octillery until it crits(1 in 16, so you'll stall out a good amount of PP, but still leave an average of 8 for the rest of your team), but Ice Breath Glalie runs over that.
Protip: If you're really going to win solely by PP stalling, have a Pressure pokemon, And some of Protect, Sub, Torment and as much evasion as you're allowed to have. ;)
Wonderful, except you're going to get Toxic'd the moment you stop using Substitute, so again, that's just 6*2 = 12 PP wasted.
Also given that Garchomp is your 'counter' since when is his ability conveniently turned into pressure? For viable pressure stallers I would think of a bulky sub-roost toxic Zapdos, but he wouldn't fit your profile of what you think is a good counter since he's not exactly able to set up like Garchomp. Really your posts much like the ability have been inconsistent. Garchomp really isn't the best counter since surf hits him for neutral which in this case would be hard. Moreover... Inconsistent can also grant accuracy boosts you know so Sand Veil can get screwed over I do wonder if you even bothered to fully understand what the ability does.
Edit: Also its just as terrible an idea to go full boost with Garchomp on an inconsistent user seeing as that is 3 free turns of boosting... Plus one from protect when you begin your obvious attack and one more from putting up a sub earlier to avoid the status effect. Plus one more potentially from initially switching in your Garchomp. One thing you don't want to give inconsistent is MORE TURNS to accumulate boosts as the longer the match goes the deadlier it becomes as those -1 are eventually replaced by +2. Course its being naive to think that once you have your sub up that Octillery won't do anything once it sees you just boosting as it can opt to attack break that sub try to toxic you if it is fast enough or if its slow it'll just waste one turn as you put back a sub but it can then opt to keep attacking you as it still gains its boosts.
Max special attack Octillery can ohko 4 hp/min SDef (58.97%) Garchomp after a +2 boost with Surf. Why is Garchomp fighting the Inconsistent Octopus behind Sub/Protect?
iirc, Feint works all the time in Gen 5, and is powered up when the foe used Protect/Detect. Not sure though, but it could work.
EDIT: Remembered that right after I posted, haha. And apparently it doesn't get boosted. So even with STAB it's just a 75 base power move that can get through Protect. Time for more ideas.
Also, Psych Up Registeel could actually work lol. Bulky enough to take hits even after the foe is boosted too.
EDIT: Remembered that right after I posted, haha. And apparently it doesn't get boosted. So even with STAB it's just a 75 base power move that can get through Protect. Time for more ideas.
Also, Psych Up Registeel could actually work lol. Bulky enough to take hits even after the foe is boosted too.
Psych up registeel wouldn't work, for several reasons:
1) if they got a lot of sp atk boosts but no sp def boosts, they could probably 1hko you.
2) You're always 1-2 turns behind
3) Crits. If you get a crit, their sub absorbs it. If they get a crit, you die. And with surf alone, I think its an 86% (I calced it a while back, probably in this thread somewhere) chance for a crit before they run out of pp. Unless you're running both psych up and substitue, which makes it a very specialized counter- like scarf cresselia last gen. Heck, psych up alone is somewhat specialized. And registeel was UU last gen and got no real buffs this gen.
1) if they got a lot of sp atk boosts but no sp def boosts, they could probably 1hko you.
2) You're always 1-2 turns behind
3) Crits. If you get a crit, their sub absorbs it. If they get a crit, you die. And with surf alone, I think its an 86% (I calced it a while back, probably in this thread somewhere) chance for a crit before they run out of pp. Unless you're running both psych up and substitue, which makes it a very specialized counter- like scarf cresselia last gen. Heck, psych up alone is somewhat specialized. And registeel was UU last gen and got no real buffs this gen.
Feint isn't powerful enough to reliably break subs, and it's a total waste of a moveslot if they don't have Inconsistent. Not to mention it still has the accuracy problem.
Well I guess Octillery and Bibarel had their fun in spotlight, too bad it's over now. Still, I can see them fist bumping down there in NU thinking "Yeah we were broken."
Seriously, I'm done trying figure out a legitimate way to beat them, hopefully Inconsistent gets nerfed or something......
Seriously, I'm done trying figure out a legitimate way to beat them, hopefully Inconsistent gets nerfed or something......
The only way I see it getting to significantly nerfed is if it requires you to use an attacking moves to get a boost. It would have a harder time with phazers, but a sp atk boost handles most of them too.
That would be too much of a nerf I think.
That is what I was thinking...
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