Dragonite

[WingedKnight]

I've deviated from my usage of Bulky DD and Anti-lead to try a more offensively oriented Dragon Dance variant.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Multiscale, Adamant
252 Att / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Dragon Dance
Dragon Claw
Earthquake/Fire Punch
ExtremeSpeed

Basically like Salamence with a priority move. Multiscale ensures at least one Dance, but you forgo the ability to Roost up for more. A little bit more head-on offensive, and it's been pretty successful so far. It's an option, I suppose.

 

[Farewell]

I Think a simple:

Dragonite: @ Life Orb
252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest
Multi-Scale

Surf
Thunder
Windstorm
Agility

Should suffice for Rain abuse. Take first hit surviving with Multi Scale, as you Agility. Then sweep with 135 Base Power Surf in Rain, 120 Base Power + 30% Paralysis Thunder, and 180 Base Power + 30% Confusion Windstorm.

Surf handles Rocks and Electrics that resist Windstorm, Thunder handles Waters that resist Surf, Windstorm handles Grass and Dragons that resist the rest.

 

[truevillany]

I Think a simple:

Dragonite: @ Life Orb
252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest
Multi-Scale

Surf
Thunder
Windstorm
Agility

Should suffice for Rain abuse. Take first hit surviving with Multi Scale, as you Agility. Then sweep with 135 Base Power Surf in Rain, 120 Base Power + 30% Paralysis Thunder, and 180 Base Power + 30% Confusion Windstorm.

Surf handles Rocks and Electrics that resist Windstorm, Thunder handles Waters that resist Surf, Windstorm handles Grass and Dragons that resist the rest.

This would be great if special walls are gone... but what do you do when blissey, chansey, or snorlax switch in on your agility? you WILL get walled... actually, you will likely get statused and walled.

I ran a modest set like this and got tired of getting walled... I have been running mixed and it seems to work out a lil better.

Dragonite: @ Lum Berry
252 SpA/72Att/184Speed
Mild/Rash
Multi-Scale

Dragon Dance
Hurricane
Outrage/Extremespeed
Thunder

This set is a much more effective late game sweeper, esspecially with entry hazard support and after things have been weakened. Multiscale guarantees you will survive @ least one attack (besides Haxorus). To give an example this thing has been eating the standard scarfchomp's 1st outrage, even with a mild nature.

I like mild better than rash only because I am nore afriad of powerful icebeams than I am of outrages or dragon claws. I like the lum berry because I was noticing that when I went modest, blisssey would switch in and just t-wave/toxic me and then wall me. This guy will usually cause a switch anyways, so I can get off one dd, and then a second as they try to status me. Outrage even @ + 1 is enough to take out alot of stuff with entry hazard support, and severely dent most stuff not named skarm or forretress. But the main idea is to use the speed boost from dd to spam hurricanes and thunders freely until you are forced into an outrage.

Only real problem with this is that scizor can revenge you if you have taken prior damage (and scarfers). hopefully though you have gotten in and got dd on the switch, so unless they have a ton of priority they wont be able to do much to stop you. If you are scared of this, then you cango rash to piotentially tanka a bullet punch and ko with hurricane.

btw this is XxbreadonxX's set

 

[TSPhoenix]

Life Orb really works against Multi Scale, but otherwise that rain set is solid.

Yes you get walled by Blissey and whatever, but this is why you don't use Agility immediately. Much better to fire off a random Hurricane/Thunder to see what they are likely to send in, and you have the nice 30% effect chance too.

 

[WingedKnight]

Life Orb really works against Multi Scale, but otherwise that rain set is solid.

OK, with this said, I could use some advice.
I was considering raising up a standard Mixnite with Multiscale as a late game sweeper or wallbreaker. Something like this.

Mild/Rash
252 Att / 252 Sp.Att / 4 Spe
Draco Meteor
Earthquake
Flamethrower
ExtremeSpeed

Is this worthwhile without the added power of Life Orb? And what would make the best item replacement?

 

[truevillany]

Life Orb really works against Multi Scale, but otherwise that rain set is solid.

Yes you get walled by Blissey and whatever, but this is why you don't use Agility immediately. Much better to fire off a random Hurricane/Thunder to see what they are likely to send in, and you have the nice 30% effect chance too.

When is your primary opportunity to use a speed boosting move? Look this is my favorite poke of all time, but lets be honest... hes pretty damn slow... and really the only reason to go special dragonite is to abuse hurricane on rain teams... otherwise why not use draco meteor and really take off some damage to their switch? Better yet,why not just use hydreigon or latios who do the special attacking thing and have better speed but are not 4x weak to ice like d'nite is?

I kinda see where you are going with that, but if your opponent switches in a threat like terrakion for example and u do not confuse it... u are going to allow him a chance to set up... or just right out outspeed and ko with stone edge (since you like to use life orb your not surviving that stone edge, whereas you would @ least have a chance to survive it by not using life orb, depending on your nature.) If you boost your speed on the switch, you at least have a chance to threaten him by outspeeding it. If it is all about abusing hurricane, tornadus also does that better.

If you want to scout, why not just go parashuffler? i.e. your opponent gets scared off by you throwing in dragonite, so they switch, and you get to thunderwave and start shuffling and paralyzing the team. @ least this way, you actually get some use out of your ability.

OK, with this said, I could use some advice.
I was considering raising up a standard Mixnite with Multiscale as a late game sweeper or wallbreaker. Something like this.

Mild/Rash
252 Att / 252 Sp.Att / 4 Spe
Draco Meteor
Earthquake
Flamethrower
ExtremeSpeed

Is this worthwhile without the added power of Life Orb? And what would make the best item replacement?

I think this is the standard wallbreaker as you said. For some reason I see people using brick break instead of earthquake though... Personally I like earthquake but i would assume brick break is for chansey/blissey. Once again you have the quandry of using life orb and wasting your ability though... But I guess you could still get good use by switching him in on a grass or fighting attacking, so maybe having teamates that draw in these attacks would be best? I think this set is a great switch in to conk...

 

[Kindrindra]

When is your primary opportunity to use a speed boosting move?

After you scout their switch-in to you and know if they have a wall to get in your way.

 

[truevillany]

After you scout their switch-in to you and know if they have a wall to get in your way.

But isnt this what team preview is for? I mean, you know from the start of the fight wether they have a wall or not dont you?

 

[WingedKnight]

I think this is the standard wallbreaker as you said. For some reason I see people using brick break instead of earthquake though... Personally I like earthquake but i would assume brick break is for chansey/blissey. Once again you have the quandry of using life orb and wasting your ability though... But I guess you could still get good use by switching him in on a grass or fighting attacking, so maybe having teamates that draw in these attacks would be best? I think this set is a great switch in to conk...

Would Lum Berry work as an item replacement? I definitely don't think LO is worth ruining Multiscale, but the question is does the removal of LO's boost ruin it's overall effectiveness?

 

[AuraSphere]

Is MultiScale enough to take a STAB-boosted, Choice Specs, Ice Beam? Or Blizzard for that matter.

 

[truevillany]

Would Lum Berry work as an item replacement? I definitely don't think LO is worth ruining Multiscale, but the question is does the removal of LO's boost ruin it's overall effectiveness?

Honestly thats the wall breaking set.. its there to break walls... I think you kinda need that life orb tbh... and I actually think lum berry is bad on that set only because sleep would be the only thing stopping you. If you get burned just use special attacks... if you get paralyzed just use extreme speed, and if you get poisoned do whatever you were gonna do anyways... without dedicated wishers this guy doesnt stay around for long in the 1st place. But what I was saying before was that you can still get use outta multscale by switching him into an attack that he can tank and reduce that attack's damage.

Lets say you have a powerful sweeper like SD lucario for a teamate. The opponent put ins conkeldur to tank the extreme speed, or as a revenge killer... You switch to dragonite to tank his mach punch which does like NOTHING even after a guts boost. That way he got a nice switch and actually used your special ability, and you can start wrecking shop, not caring about life orb's recoil!

Is MultiScale enough to take a STAB-boosted, Choice Specs, Ice Beam? Or Blizzard for that matter.

On the rain sweeper set i suggested... Hell no.... but it can take weaker ones... like from tentacruel and such... If i am not mistaken I believe it can take a neutral nature 0 iv vaporeon ice beam. I may be wrong but i believe i have done that before... I cant think of a specs user that gets STAB from ice beam though... Cryogenal maybe? LOVE the avatar btw

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Kyurem's Specs Ice Beam OHKOes any Dragonite set, even with Multi-Scale active, unless it runs something stupid like 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful.

 

[jle1076]

Rain Sweeper is the best MultiScale Dnite out there, its brutal

 

[truevillany]

Kyurem's Specs Ice Beam OHKOes any Dragonite set, even with Multi-Scale active, unless it runs something stupid like 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful.

lol that is actually what some people run on the parashuffler set.... specifically for situations like what you just mentioned. most people put enough evs in speed to outspeed breloom, but i have seen a few spreads like that are exactly 252hp/252spd/4def Careful. It is actually VERY effective for this reason. But even then I am not sure that it can survive it... Would need a few calc's to see if that is the case.

then again they are in different tiers so its not likely they will see each other... for now anyways...

 

[jle1076]

then he cant do ANYTHING other pokemon cant do better with that spread lol

 

[truevillany]

then he cant do ANYTHING other pokemon cant do better with that spread lol

Actually it is quite the contrary... NO ONE can do what This Dragonite does better... no one...

Just so you know this I am not just spouting random garbage, this is actually the 1st set off of the Smogon 5th Gen OU analysis...

[SET]
name: Parashuffler
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Thunder Wave
move 3: Roost
move 4: Dragon Tail
ability: Multiscale
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set aims to maximize Multiscale's utility by paralyzing opponents to make Dragonite's Roost go first. This makes Dragonite very difficult to KO; to put things into perspective, a Dragonite at full HP with the listed EV spread has 15.9% more special bulk than 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey does. Combined with the temporary loss of its Flying type during a Roost, even Ice-type attacks can fail to deal a significant amount of damage.</p>

<p>The main idea is to paralyze the opponent and stall with Roost until the opponent skips its turn, at which point Dragonite can use Substitute or Dragon Tail while taking minimal damage at worst. The paralysis that Dragonite spreads also serves as a lingering mark on the opponent that the rest of the team can exploit. Though Ground-types are immune to Thunder Wave, the vast majority of them are slower than Dragonite anyway, though notable exceptions include Excadrill, Garchomp, and Gliscor. The main danger is in running out of Dragon Tail PP, which renders the set far less useful.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>One could run 176 Spe EVs to outrun Breloom and set a Substitute up before the Spore. However, Breloom is not too common and the bulk in the original EV spread is a huge part of how this set works.</p>

<p>This set works best on teams with defensive leanings that appreciate the phazing and paralysis support that Dragonite brings. To help Dragonite in its role, Rapid Spin can be very helpful, as can removal of Sandstorm through rain and sun inducers such as Ninetales, Politoed, and Rain Dance Tornadus. Conversely, residual damage on the opponent is highly recommended to get the most out of Dragon Tail and Roost stalling. This can be achieved through entry hazards or Leech Seed; Ferrothorn in particular has Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Leech Seed (though only two may be run at a time) as well a great complementary typing. Whimsicott can also run Leech Seed, as well as use Stun Spore to paralyze faster Ground-types, though it is helpless against a Garchomp behind a Substitute.</p>

<p>Steel-types can be particularly bothersome to Dragonite. Excadrill is especially concerning because it is both immune to Thunder Wave and fast enough to hit Dragonite hard with Rock Slide. Other faster Ground-types, namely Garchomp and Gliscor, can also pose problems; the former could have Dual Chop to bypass Multiscale somewhat, while the latter can Taunt Dragonite and set up a Swords Dance. Some good teammates to check these threats include Gliscor, Bronzong, and Rotom-W. Rotom-W in particular has a great complementary type combination for Dragonite, having only Grass as a weakness (which Dragonite takes easily) and resisting Ice.</p>

<p>A very defensive team will find Wish and Heal Bell support very rewarding. If Dragonite eventually sustains heavy damage and is forced out, Wish could put it back on its feet. Both paralysis and poison are terrible for this set, making Heal Bell or Aromatherapy very much appreciated.</p>

This set is absolute rape. After looking @ it i can say with he's probably going to be able to eat that specs kyurem ice beam...

 

[WingedKnight]

I'm loving how the versatility of Dragonite has just been increased so much this generation thanks to really just three new toys: Multiscale, Hurricane, and Dragon Tail. Each of them (or combinations of them) allows for so many options when team-building. Antilead, mixed wallbreaking, offensive and bulky DD variants, parashuffling, and rain abuse are all deadly when used to their fullest potential. It's really quite impressive just how much he is capable of doing, albeit not in one single set.

 

[TSPhoenix]

Rain Dragonite doesn't need Leftovers to deal with Sandstorm so I'd actually consider trying Yache or something.

When is your primary opportunity to use a speed boosting move? Look this is my favorite poke of all time, but lets be honest... hes pretty damn slow... and really the only reason to go special dragonite is to abuse hurricane on rain teams... otherwise why not use draco meteor and really take off some damage to their switch? Better yet,why not just use hydreigon or latios who do the special attacking thing and have better speed but are not 4x weak to ice like d'nite is?

I kinda see where you are going with that, but if your opponent switches in a threat like terrakion for example and u do not confuse it... u are going to allow him a chance to set up... or just right out outspeed and ko with stone edge (since you like to use life orb your not surviving that stone edge, whereas you would @ least have a chance to survive it by not using life orb, depending on your nature.) If you boost your speed on the switch, you at least have a chance to threaten him by outspeeding it. If it is all about abusing hurricane, tornadus also does that better.

If you want to scout, why not just go parashuffler? i.e. your opponent gets scared off by you throwing in dragonite, so they switch, and you get to thunderwave and start shuffling and paralyzing the team. @ least this way, you actually get some use out of your ability.

I get your point. Sometimes it will be best to Agility first, but as mentioned that is where scouting/team preview come into play. Its just a matter of using what you know, and what you know the opponent knows about you to make a decent judgement.

Over-defining a Pokemon's role on your team is a one-way ticket to losing games you could have won. Yes this is a setup sweeper, but don't think too much into it. If you try and setup immediately you become amazingly predictable and non-threatening to your opponent. If your opponent doesn't know if you are going to do, they have to try and minimise losses by playing making it much harder to counter/kill your Dragonite.

The problem with always using Agility immediately is if something you can't handle comes in (which is admittedly little for Dragonite) and have you switch out you've pretty much wasted 2 turns.

#1 example of this would be Cloyster, you see it, you know its gonna Shell Break so you just hit it in the face and now its HP is too low to sweep. If he didn't always try setup turn one and fired off some Hydro Pumps or Icicle Spears he would be doing a lot more damage to my team.

FYI Hurricane does 61-72% to the standard Terakion without LO. Surf does 96% minimum. Its not going to sweep anything after that.

 

[truevillany]

Rain Dragonite doesn't need Leftovers to deal with Sandstorm so I'd actually consider trying Yache or something.



I get your point. Sometimes it will be best to Agility first, but as mentioned that is where scouting/team preview come into play. Its just a matter of using what you know, and what you know the opponent knows about you to make a decent judgement.

Over-defining a Pokemon's role on your team is a one-way ticket to losing games you could have won. Yes this is a setup sweeper, but don't think too much into it. If you try and setup immediately you become amazingly predictable and non-threatening to your opponent. If your opponent doesn't know if you are going to do, they have to try and minimise losses by playing making it much harder to counter/kill your Dragonite.

The problem with always using Agility immediately is if something you can't handle comes in (which is admittedly little for Dragonite) and have you switch out you've pretty much wasted 2 turns.

#1 example of this would be Cloyster, you see it, you know its gonna Shell Break so you just hit it in the face and now its HP is too low to sweep. If he didn't always try setup turn one and fired off some Hydro Pumps or Icicle Spears he would be doing a lot more damage to my team.

FYI Hurricane does 61-72% to the standard Terakion without LO. Surf does 96% minimum. Its not going to sweep anything after that.

cloyster is a bad example being that its gonna get straight raped by thunder... I was fighting a rhyperior earlier today who kept switching into my dragonite once he saw it and i was forced to switch out twice until he had taken some damage... i think that it a better example of what you were trying to say.

I think it all comes down to team make up tbh. although I like the idea of running rain boosted surf... I feel like since i have 2 waters and a grass on the rain team already, i dont need dragonite to have surf. Things like Suicune can actually eat my hurricanes and take me out with rain boosted moves of their own or ice beam, so I feel thunder is just the way to go. But that is what works for me. Not to mention, my rain team usually has entry hazards by the time dragonite even appears, so people are taking residual damage throughout the match... rarely is someone @ full health when facing him.

With a lil bit of spikes support that + 1 outrage is koing terrakion. And he doesnt like taking 100% accurate thunders with a chance to be paraylyzed either.

Predictability is important, but when facing good opponents, they usually can guess your moveset based on when you put them in the game or after their 1st move (in OU anyways). I know I can, and I am not as good as a lot of players out there. Which is why I am so against team preview. I think Gamefreak really dumbed things down.

But I will say that using dragon dance instead of agility helps prove your point about predictability. There are ALOT of times where I bring d'nite in and dragondance on their switch to blissey/chansey... expecting me to be modest and a one dimensional special attacke. They then get put into an awkward position. What now? Am I standard dd'nite? or am I mixed? Often times they switch out to skarm or some other physical tank thinking I am standard dd'nite, giving me ANOTHER turn to use dragon dance (mutliscale is still intact) I can usually sweep a team @ that point. All that skarm can do @ that point is ww me out, after taking a super effective thunder and activating sturdy, which I dont mind.

 

[TSPhoenix]

The Cloyster example was to say what people do when they see a Cloyster, not anything to do with Dragonite.

But yeah, you nailed it. If you ran Agility/Roost/Thunder/Hurricane you'd be totally walled by say Steelix so setting up would be pointless would do nothing for you.

The Dragon Dance idea is really clever, but without speed EVs you aren't all that quick at +1 so it is really only effective against Special Walls.

 

[truevillany]

The Cloyster example was to say what people do when they see a Cloyster, not anything to do with Dragonite.

But yeah, you nailed it. If you ran Agility/Roost/Thunder/Hurricane you'd be totally walled by say Steelix so setting up would be pointless would do nothing for you.

The Dragon Dance idea is really clever, but without speed EVs you aren't all that quick at +1 so it is really only effective against Special Walls.

184 Spe EVs allow for 363 Spe after a DD, the minimun to outrun + Base 115 pokemon (eg Starmie and its ice beam). I am not really sure what else can ohko though multiscale that is faster than that (without a scarf). Scarf Haxorus is a big issue for that set. Inherently that is the benefit of running agility as you outspeed everything for the most part with one turn of set up... even most scarfers. I kinda like the +1 attack boost though... gives me the option to hit just as hard physically as i can specially

 

[PlainN]

I've actually been using an balanced aggressive late-game sweeping set with extremely good results:

Dragonite @ Life Orb/Lum Berry/Leftovers
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant, Multi-scale
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
- Roost/Earthquake/Outrage
- Dragon Dance

If the field is set (no stealth rock and sandstorm), it's so easy to get 2 DDs under your belt if you come in after a KO, even with no defense investment.

Turn 1: Opponent switches out, 1 DD
Turn 2: Survive counterattack with Multiscale, Another DD

You can then roost or start attacking depending on the situation. The former is more for stall teams which can't do too much direct damage; it has even allowed me to pp stall them to death in certain situations. Life Orb seems counterintuitive, but if you don't use an attack until you are done DDing, then multiscale will still be intact when it matters (opponent counterattack) and the added power is huge. Otherwise, the standard leftovers or lum berry also works.

If you are even more risk-loving, then you can replace roost for EQ (otherwise Heatran walls you to death) or Outrage (for particularly hard physical walls like Gliscor).

 

[WingedKnight]

For the Dragon Dancer in general, that last slot is kinda open. Dance is obviously a must, Dragon Claw is preferable to allow move switching, and Ferrothorn (and Steels as a whole) make Fire Punch almost necessary. Whether you want Roost, Earthquake, ExtremeSpeed or Outrage in that last slot is up to you, and then LO/Lum/Lefties is dependent on that and the playstyle you're going for.

 

[lmitchell0012]

I had an interesting idea for this guy in double battles. When you pair him with slowbro, they become amazing tanks. As if slowbro wasn't bulky enough, think of what he'd be like with multi scale O_O. And dragonite would regain hp every time he switched out. And it's all thanks to skill swap.

Nevermind, I just realized skill swap is illegal with regenerator...

 

[truevillany]

I had an interesting idea for this guy in double battles. When you pair him with slowbro, they become amazing tanks. As if slowbro wasn't bulky enough, think of what he'd be like with multi scale O_O. And dragonite would regain hp every time he switched out. And it's all thanks to skill swap.

Nevermind, I just realized skill swap is illegal with regenerator...

Here's the idea I was gonna use for doubles... Bulky dragondancer @ lum berry with dragon claw, roost, dragon dance, and safeguard... Adamant Kangaskhan @ Fake out, swagger, Return, and eq... 1st moves are dragon dance and fake out.... use fake out on the most threatening opponent, or the one you think will status you... Second moves are sasfeguard, and then khanghakhan uses swagger on dragonite.

If everything works out well you will be @ +3 ATT and +1 Sp after move 2 without the chance to be statused... Eq pairs well with dragonite as it wont affect him. I used this strat in gen 4 with great success, and it will be even more threatening with multi scale!