This. By using Stone Edge, you willingly take the risk of it missing, and if your only Volcarona check relies on this move, then you deserve to lose one game out of five against it. Random burns can be annoying, but you're expected to evaluate the risk and reward of every option available and their rewards to make the best possible choice. By always using TTar to take Fire Blast, you choose to let it be burned one time out of ten.The "better" player does not always win. This is not a bad thing, it is part of the game. Skill shows over many matches, not a few. And skill includes luck management.
Speed Boost is NOT what made him broken. It was the combination of dual 120+ BP STAB with few resistors, high base offenses, and a one-turn setup along with Speed Boost. For example, Speed Boost Ninjask and Sharpedo are far from broken; this shows how Speed Boost is not inherently a broken ability. Therefore, we cannot just ban Speed Boost- we must ban Blaziken itself.Banning the Speed Boost + Blaziken, the broken and overpowered set, and keeping Blaze Blaziken, the balanced UU Pokemon. If the DW ability is what makes the pokemon broken, ban the Dream World ability. Let the Pokemon stay.
This man is smart.The words are synonyms and mean "player ranked highly in the ladder dislikes this element of the game".
I think your definition of over-centralization is absolutely fantastic. Is it possible for us to use in the testing process? No more than any other definition, but that's just the nature of the metagame. But I do think it perfectly describes what makes something over-centralizing.I'd say something like this:
Uncompetitive: Either something that is not good enough to be used competitively, or something that makes the outcome of a match dependent on luck. There are too many examples of the former to name. For the latter, good examples include Inconsistent/Moody and Evasion boosting moves as well as OHKO moves. Moves that have less than perfect accuracy can still be competitive, or not depending on their other merits, as the choice to use what is generally a more powerful, but less accurate move is just that - a choice. It's still in the player's hands.
Overcentralization: Are you using ______? Do you have something to deal with ______? If the answer to one or both of these is no, can you still win reliably, all else being equal? If you have to use something and/or its counters to win, there is overcentralization. Merely being popular, or even powerful is not overcentralization. Even being common is not overcentralization, as long as it can still be beaten without specific counters.
Whatever definition you use though, it's very important that definition be clearly and objectively defined. Otherwise you just get people dismissing it as "things top players don't like" or otherwise not taking it at all seriously. Subjectivity must be avoided here at all costs.
There will always be those that will insist on dismissing facts as opinions, no matter what you do. But when those people are right, it's time to go back to the drawing board.
Along the same lines, whatever definition that is used needs to be used as close to universally as possible. Otherwise you have two people saying the same words and meaning different things, making clear communication impossible.
I think that a LO Scrafty with DD, HJK, and Moxie could be worse, especially considering how he will have enough bulk to tank the DD set up, where you might need scarf really to get the SD for blaze.Arguably Speed Boost isn't the only thing that made Blaze broken. It got Hi Jump Kick, which has been buffed to be even stronger than Close Combat, minus the stat drops. Sure, the 10% accuracy drop and high recoil hurts, but screw 120 STABs, Blaziken has a 130 BP STABbed move to work with. Combined with the ability to Hone Claws if you are paranoid, or Swords Dance for outright sweeping, there you go.
It's the same reason as like, allowing Gen 4 Chomp into OU, so long as it doesn't have Outrage, Earthquake or Draco Meteor.
P.S. Haunter's sig. Look at it.
I'm going to call BS on this. Evasion was never allowed in 5th gen. It was never even allowed in 4th gen. How can you possibly come to that conclusion when you have zero relevant evidence? Oh, and before you respond, actually running the odds shows that evasion is a poor choice, so don't try to justify it based on "theory".Evasion raising is a fantastic strategy tha requires you to have very specific counters to reliably beat.
Heh, no risk vs reward evaluation. That's rich. Do you really think that the brightpowder user didn't evaluate the risk vs reward of using it instead of leftovers or life orb or whatever? Do you really think that the Double Team user hasn't considered what other strategies might bring to his team?Luck only becomes uncompetitive when skill no longer manages it. Brightpowder and Double Team deemed uncompetitive because the opponent has no safe, luck-free option. .... There is no "risk vs reward" evaluation : just do as you would, but praying your move will hit. No safe option, no counter, no workaround.
OK, OK, you got me on that one. But the point still stands. This strategy is completely viable as far as competitiveness. The only real thing that is changes if you negate that one sentence is the fact that it then means Evasion should not be banned. I have already shown that it is in fact a competitive strategy, and if it is not a good strategy, or an over-centralizing one, then why the hell is it banned?I'm going to call BS on this. Evasion was never allowed in 5th gen. It was never even allowed in 4th gen. How can you possibly come to that conclusion when you have zero relevant evidence? Oh, and before you respond, actually running the odds shows that evasion is a poor choice, so don't try to justify it based on "theory".
I disagree. As I described earlier with the quote from Sirlin, if something is so good that it is OP, then why isn't everyone using it? OP is subjective. However, if it is so OP that everyone who wants to win must use it or use the rare counter for it, then it becomes over-centralizing. Over-centralization infringes on variety. We want variety. Then and only then (at least in this specific example) do we ban it.I don't really know if ovecentrilization is even the right way to describe the problem, to me it is just a symptom.
What your really trying to say is that Garchomp is/was 'overpowered' or OP. This may be due to a pokemons type/ability/moveset in any particular combination. Because it is overpowered and low riskevery kid on the block uses it because it provides easy wins against teams/strategies not specifically built around it. Or use it themselves to force an opponent to counter it.
You're not talking about risk vs reward but cost vs benefit, which has nothing at all to do with luck... Furthermore, I was obviously talking about risk vs reward for the player on the receiving end of the dice roll. Stone Edge is "risk vs reward" for the user, as he gets a strong Rock move by taking the risk of missing. Random Fire Blast burns are "risk vs reward" for the opponent, as switching TTar on Chandelure usually lets you take only minimal damage and Pursuit it, but you take the risk of being severely crippled. This kind of luck is desirable as long as skill is involved.Heh, no risk vs reward evaluation. That's rich. Do you really think that the brightpowder user didn't evaluate the risk vs reward of using it instead of leftovers or life orb or whatever? Do you really think that the Double Team user hasn't considered what other strategies might bring to his team?
The thing is not only that it makes the match less about player ability and more about luck, it doesn't even necessarily help you win.I think your definition of over-centralization is absolutely fantastic. Is it possible for us to use in the testing process? No more than any other definition, but that's just the nature of the metagame. But I do think it perfectly describes what makes something over-centralizing.
However, I strongly disagree on the uncompetitiveness part (well the second half, at least). If you read my post above, you would see that I define being competitive as playing to win. While making the match more luck dependent may be less fun, if it helps you win, it is, in fact, very competitive.
The only real way to be uncompetitive is by playing without trying to win. And I highly doubt that is a real problem in our metagame.
If that were true, I would agree. But I do not believe it is.The thing is not only that it makes the match less about player ability and more about luck, it doesn't even necessarily help you win.
First of all, I can't help but pointing out that it is not a 75% chance, but in fact a 68% chance of getting 1 or more KOs (I hope I did that right, I have a final exam in this stuff on Tuesday). But that is besides the point. I'm not saying this specific example is a good strategy, but I do believe it is a viable strategy. Would someone be using OHKO moves if they didn't want to win? No. So while it may not be a good strategy, it is a competitive one.Consider.
After four rounds of using a OHKO move, you have a 75% chance that you killed something. How many pokemon can weather four attacks, from anything decent? Now, how much better would you have done if you intelligently chose attacking moves with a decent sweeper?
If it is not that good, why was everyone complaining about its ability to sweep everything. And even if what you said is true, what's wrong with relying on luck. Some people may not realize this, but Skill is not the opposite of Luck. Skill takes Luck into account, and makes decisions based on it. So if a luck based strategy is good, then skilled people use it. Hence it becomes over-centralizing.Inconsistent has a 1/7 chance to get an evasion boost, multiplying accuracy by 0.6 for the first boost. It also has a 1/7 chance of raising base speed by 100% and a 1/7 chance of raising your attack stat of choice by 100% of its base value... but all the other possibilities are either less useful or not useful at all.
I already addressed this but I'll say it again. In fact, I once saw a post by someone I really want to quote here, but I cant remember who said it or where, so I will repeat it as best I can.While presumably players here find it enjoyable to play effectively and efficiently, fun doesn't have anything else to do with it at all. What has everything to do with it is that luck, by its very nature is random and skill is not. Relying on luck to win means unreliable wins at best. Relying on skill gives results proportional to ability. Be it in a mild form such as hating evasion boosting moves and OHKO moves, a moderate form such as also hating critical hits, or a severe form such as hating any kind of significant variation in effects this is the centerpoint of the anti luck mindset. And it's very common among the competitively minded in any game for a very good reason.
First, that's an awfully unsupported argument.Not gonna lie
Sand Stream + Sand Rush makes Excadrill incredibly broken.
If Drizzle + Swift Swim is banded you guys should ban that too :/