I think that this community would benefit from having board for serious discussions on politics, philosophy, etc. Ever since the creation of a forum and the abolishment of congregation I have missed the ability to read and participate in such discussions in this community. I realize that such discussions are allowed in a forum but the are not common and many posters do not take them seriously so a topic that could spark serious discussion often becomes derailed into frivolousness.
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Serious Discussion Board
- Thread starter lati0s
- Start date
That's the price we paid for getting rid of Firebot and merging it with Cong which was just fine how it was. Firebot was the real problem and I, like many others, am still puzzled as to what the point of the merger was.
I just looked through the first page of a forum and there wasn't a single serious discussion a forum doesnt encourage such things and even threads that could lead to such discussions usually don't
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
welcome to the internet
If you want a place to seriously discuss things, go here http://www.leagueofreason.co.uk//index.php
serious threads can be taken seriously, such as "how you've rgown"
if you want swious discussion, it's your responsibility to make threads that ebcourage intelligent discourse and to keep the discussion from derailing. firebot was too stupid and cong was too stuffy, as most of the moderators of those forums agreed and decided that a fresh start was the best course of action. serious discussion has flourished in a forum, and if you want it to then it can continue to. but, it's the catch-all "off-topic" forum, so if you want to have a super serious discussion, the onus is on you to keep it serious etc
edit: the word "onus" brouvht to you by your friendly neighborhood jumpman
if you want swious discussion, it's your responsibility to make threads that ebcourage intelligent discourse and to keep the discussion from derailing. firebot was too stupid and cong was too stuffy, as most of the moderators of those forums agreed and decided that a fresh start was the best course of action. serious discussion has flourished in a forum, and if you want it to then it can continue to. but, it's the catch-all "off-topic" forum, so if you want to have a super serious discussion, the onus is on you to keep it serious etc
edit: the word "onus" brouvht to you by your friendly neighborhood jumpman
I agree with lati0s on this one. We all know that a forum is intended to contain serious discussion as well as inanity and serve as both the new Congregation and the new Firebot, but it really isn't. It's basically just the new Firebot.
Has it? I know serious discussion of games and other matters fare well in a forum, but has serious political discussion done well there? It did well in Congregation.
By re-splitting the social forums, we could retain the laid-back, funny, but sane nature of a forum and reintroduce the serious and philosophical side of Congreation.
In Congregation, it was easy to promote serious discussion about politics or some other matter because every other thread in the forum was about a similar serious issue. Now that a forum is 90% Firebot and 10% Congregation it is much harder to promote serious discussion because almost every other thread is a less serious, more appealing-to-the-average-Smogoner funny thread. Just some thoughts.
.Vader said:
Has it? I know serious discussion of games and other matters fare well in a forum, but has serious political discussion done well there? It did well in Congregation.
Yeah, Firebot was in pretty bad shape, but all a forum did was return Firebot to normalcy while eliminating the sophisticated side of Congregation. Since Congregation was pretty good and Firebot was the problem, couldn't we just have tightened the moderation on Firebot? Now that a forum has settled it down a bit it would seem like the perfect time to re-split it into a "funny" forum (keep a forum as this) and a "serious" forum (a new Congregation, probably call it something witty).NixHex said:
By re-splitting the social forums, we could retain the laid-back, funny, but sane nature of a forum and reintroduce the serious and philosophical side of Congreation.
In Congregation, it was easy to promote serious discussion about politics or some other matter because every other thread in the forum was about a similar serious issue. Now that a forum is 90% Firebot and 10% Congregation it is much harder to promote serious discussion because almost every other thread is a less serious, more appealing-to-the-average-Smogoner funny thread. Just some thoughts.
If you want a thread to have a serious discussion in a forum, put that in your title, and then set the tone for the thread. TIK and Ramblin Wreck are going to post trolly posts no matter what, but for the most part, if your OP is presented well, you'll get serious discussion.
The lack of serious discussion threads is just evidence that most people don't want to talk super seriously about anything. We're here to have fun, and a forum has definitely given us a place to go just to have fun and say what we want. We don't have to "fit in" in a forum as we did in Firebot and Cong.
Also, politics sucks. j/s
The lack of serious discussion threads is just evidence that most people don't want to talk super seriously about anything. We're here to have fun, and a forum has definitely given us a place to go just to have fun and say what we want. We don't have to "fit in" in a forum as we did in Firebot and Cong.
Also, politics sucks. j/s
congregation was nowhere near as good as you remember it, the OPs were usually tl;dr and intimidating as fuck, people actually felt unqualified to post unless they'd done half an hour of research before hand, it was stuffy as hell, resulting in a board with threads that gathered dust and didn't really go anywhere. in a way, it felt more exclusive than the cliquey atmosphere of firebot.
the threads in cong that did get mileage usually contained people lobbing attacks at each other because of religion/politics, then there were the people who derailed threads by coating their posts in pseudointellectual language, i remember a particularly delightful thread on legalization of gay marriages that became a discussion on bestiality and incest. and does anyone recall the thread on turning dead people into fertilizer? the sad part is that because the thread was in cong we had to actually reason with these trolls instead of trolling them right back.
in short, i would like to echo the sentiments that politics/religion discussion threads suck fucking ass, cong died for a reason, and suggesting that we bring it back is a terrible idea.
the threads in cong that did get mileage usually contained people lobbing attacks at each other because of religion/politics, then there were the people who derailed threads by coating their posts in pseudointellectual language, i remember a particularly delightful thread on legalization of gay marriages that became a discussion on bestiality and incest. and does anyone recall the thread on turning dead people into fertilizer? the sad part is that because the thread was in cong we had to actually reason with these trolls instead of trolling them right back.
in short, i would like to echo the sentiments that politics/religion discussion threads suck fucking ass, cong died for a reason, and suggesting that we bring it back is a terrible idea.
Well, I agree with the first part of your sentence, but... it's not exactly easy to keep discussion from derailing if you don't have the power to delete other people's posts. Once a serious discussion gets going, shouldn't it be on the mods to make sure people don't derail it? If not, what are mods there for, anyway? Non-badged people pretty much have no recourse against people who want to derail serious threads, and there's no rule against non-serious posts in a forum, so these people can't even really be infracted for it.
Well, as others have said ITT, a forum is basically just firebot 2.0. People are still on their high-horses about who is funny and who isn't, and it's still just as stupid as ever. But the intelligent discussions are pretty much eliminated, and it's difficult to get an intelligent topic going in a forum because people just like to troll things even if there is a serious OP.
While you think all of this is a bad thing, this is pretty much what I liked about cong-- people actually had to think before they posted. When discussing high-stakes things like politics, philosophy, and the like, it's best to think things through rather than making points without backing them up. You call it "stuffy," but I call it "the way serious discussions should be." You want actual stuffiness, though, just look at academia-- the pompousness I've found in the philosophy department at JHU makes Cong look like nothing, and it was nice to have a place to discuss things that didn't have as high standards as actual academic places but still had standards nonetheless.
Well, I wasn't around for either of these, but... these seem more like examples of mods not doing their jobs that well than anything. If a thread gets derailed beyond repair, just lock it or delete/infract offending posts. Whatever. And you're probably missing the point of wanting serious discussion threads if you're suggesting that having them derail into counter-trolling a troll is a good thing.
From what you're saying here, it looks like Cong wasn't your cup of tea and you preferred Firebot, which is fine, but it still stands that there are more people who liked Cong than you might think (I mean, you've got Lati0s, me, NixHex, and DetroitLOLcat here already), and disenfranchising them just because you find something "too stuffy" is not really fair.
And what's wrong with arguing about politics and religion? Some people enjoy it.
tl;dr: A forum has pretty much digressed into firebot 2.0. Serious discussion threads are often derailed pretty early on, and a forum only really caters to the lowest common denominator. While Cong may have been a bit stuffy, it was still nice to be able to debate serious things without worrying as much about threads being trolled into oblivion.
Counter-example to people who say "make a good op":
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448765
and TIK and Ramblin Wreck havent even posted yet.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448765
and TIK and Ramblin Wreck havent even posted yet.
TBH, if you don't like Cong returning, just stay in a forum. It doesn't seem like too much to ask given Lanturn's reasoning.
On the other hand, stuff that's too hard to troll and isn't serious enough to really invite trolls seems to survive. For now.
On the other hand, stuff that's too hard to troll and isn't serious enough to really invite trolls seems to survive. For now.
As a frequent contributor to the old cong-style serious discussions, I'm going to weigh in on this.
There were a few very good serious discussions in the early days of a forum, so the potential for those discussions is still definitely there. There is nothing about the structure of the forum that precludes good discussion - it is possible to have meaningful threads interspersed with witty one-liners and surrounded by other threads about cat videos on youtube. We even have the decent semi-serious college discussion thread. No, the structure is not the problem, and I don't think we need a new cong-style forum at all.
I think the main problem is that most of the community in a forum does not want serious discussion. It's really hard to say that without coming off as snooty (I like silly gifs as much as the next guy), but it seems that the more serious threads, even with good OPs, either don't gain much traction or don't stay serious for very long.
I remember posting in that "shitty rap music" thread a while back and seeing comments like "I don't know why people are turning this firebot-style thread into a serious discussion". Given that the OP was meant to be humorous I can kind of understand that sentiment, but in general it seems that people view any sort of serious discussion as being inappropriate with respect to the mood of a forum.
How do we fix this? I don't know. It's a forum culture issue, and we can't easily force changes to that. What I was thinking is that we could occasionally have serious discussions with good OPs as stickies (instead of just youtube/gif/comic threads), which would give the impression that discussion threads need to be taken as seriously as any other threads. I don't think stricter moderation is a good idea because it might discourage interested-but-inexperienced posters. I do think that more active participation by more of the old cong-style posters would be a good idea - I haven't seen any of them post in a forum in a good long time, which makes it a bit of a catch-22 (if serious posters don't post, discussions can't be serious, but if discussions aren't serious, those same posters will be disinclined to post).
There were a few very good serious discussions in the early days of a forum, so the potential for those discussions is still definitely there. There is nothing about the structure of the forum that precludes good discussion - it is possible to have meaningful threads interspersed with witty one-liners and surrounded by other threads about cat videos on youtube. We even have the decent semi-serious college discussion thread. No, the structure is not the problem, and I don't think we need a new cong-style forum at all.
I think the main problem is that most of the community in a forum does not want serious discussion. It's really hard to say that without coming off as snooty (I like silly gifs as much as the next guy), but it seems that the more serious threads, even with good OPs, either don't gain much traction or don't stay serious for very long.
I remember posting in that "shitty rap music" thread a while back and seeing comments like "I don't know why people are turning this firebot-style thread into a serious discussion". Given that the OP was meant to be humorous I can kind of understand that sentiment, but in general it seems that people view any sort of serious discussion as being inappropriate with respect to the mood of a forum.
How do we fix this? I don't know. It's a forum culture issue, and we can't easily force changes to that. What I was thinking is that we could occasionally have serious discussions with good OPs as stickies (instead of just youtube/gif/comic threads), which would give the impression that discussion threads need to be taken as seriously as any other threads. I don't think stricter moderation is a good idea because it might discourage interested-but-inexperienced posters. I do think that more active participation by more of the old cong-style posters would be a good idea - I haven't seen any of them post in a forum in a good long time, which makes it a bit of a catch-22 (if serious posters don't post, discussions can't be serious, but if discussions aren't serious, those same posters will be disinclined to post).
This, honestly. It's also not exactly hard to find a serious thread on a forum unless for some reason you're looking for several at a time. Before the merge, I avoided most of Firebot like the plague and really couldn't bother with verbose people pretending to know what they were talking about in Cong. Now I check for interesting threads in a forum fairly frequently, and if I don't find any, oh, well.
i don't get it, if you want serious discussion, make serious threads. if a meritorious thread is being shat on, i or others will put a stop to it. 'how youve grown' is a prime example of a good thread in a forum. all of you need to stop with your concupiscence for the wondrous cong days of yore; it was not a good forum. it was full of bombast and bullshit, gasping for oxygen under its all-too-tight collar. you're wearing the same rose-tinted goggles as the 'remember when firebot was good?' crowd.
people like you are the reason there aren't serious threads in a forum. we need some first adopters to get more serious threads going. i understand it can be intimidating to go against what seems to be the grain in a forum, but i and others encourage you to start some discussions.
furthermore, a forum is not firebot 2.0. if you've noticed, non-social forum staff actually post there now. we got next to no staff traffic in firebot, part of why i went on so many crusades to overhaul the forum completely ("if even our staff doesnt want to be a part of the forum, why are we fighting to hard to keep its 'culture'?")
perhaps a 'dont shit on serious threads' sticky is in order.
edit: posted that sticky
people like you are the reason there aren't serious threads in a forum. we need some first adopters to get more serious threads going. i understand it can be intimidating to go against what seems to be the grain in a forum, but i and others encourage you to start some discussions.
furthermore, a forum is not firebot 2.0. if you've noticed, non-social forum staff actually post there now. we got next to no staff traffic in firebot, part of why i went on so many crusades to overhaul the forum completely ("if even our staff doesnt want to be a part of the forum, why are we fighting to hard to keep its 'culture'?")
perhaps a 'dont shit on serious threads' sticky is in order.
this this this
edit: posted that sticky
I see alot of serious threads get closed prematurely like the Bin laden death thread. Other times People take time to make a good thread and it gets closed when people don't take it serious while general 'firebot' threads stay open. Then when a serious thread becomes a 'firebot' thread it gets closed. Eh indifferent anyways, I Dont post there alot.
(noob alert)
This thread helps me understand the current misc. forum and a little Smogon forums history, thanks.
At the moment I see a fair amount of legitimate discussion going on in most of the few threads I've visited there, and of course I see some seedy-sounding threads :S For my tastes it is perfectly fine to have the two in the same forum. It is easy enough (based on topic titles) to see which topics I don't want to visit.
(Some people in that forum know that I got off to a horrible start posting there. My biggest problem was that the concept of wanting "meritorious" threads is foreign to me, strange as it may sound. In all the Internet places I normally frequent it is totally acceptable to post something simple or odd in a new thread without any plans to start a serious discussion or have more than a few replies. Obviously it's me that has to adjust in this case if I want to keep posting here.)
This thread helps me understand the current misc. forum and a little Smogon forums history, thanks.
At the moment I see a fair amount of legitimate discussion going on in most of the few threads I've visited there, and of course I see some seedy-sounding threads :S For my tastes it is perfectly fine to have the two in the same forum. It is easy enough (based on topic titles) to see which topics I don't want to visit.
(Some people in that forum know that I got off to a horrible start posting there. My biggest problem was that the concept of wanting "meritorious" threads is foreign to me, strange as it may sound. In all the Internet places I normally frequent it is totally acceptable to post something simple or odd in a new thread without any plans to start a serious discussion or have more than a few replies. Obviously it's me that has to adjust in this case if I want to keep posting here.)
This is pretty unfair, and false in my opinion. I also enjoyed Congregation a lot back in the day, and do miss it (though I also really enjoy a forum, so :/ ).
It's not the people don't want to discuss serious matter, it is simply that seriously discussion inherently takes longer to discuss. It takes a lot more time to put together a good Cong-style OP, and also a lot of time to make a thoughtful Cong-style post. Inherently, the pace of Cong was slower.
When these slower-paced threads have to compete with the pace of a forum's continued flatulence (seriously, let's admit that at least half of a forum's threads suck balls), it becomes even more difficult to keep the discussion afloat-- as posters who would be interested to post in such a thread might have a very hard time finding it amongst everything else.
I wouldn't suggest bringing Cong back, and the criticism of Cong is pretty much all true. Still, having a tag for serious discussion (such that someone could see a list of JUST serious discussions) would be great. I'm not saying this would be very high priority (pretty damn low priority) but I'd have to say it would definitely be nice.
This might be a stupid idea, but we could keep A Forum as it is, but also start a new Firebot. It's great having a place where people can have legitimate discussions (and by my silly definition even something like the Elder Scrolls thread qualifies as legitimate discussion), but people also deserve a place simply to unwind. Hopefully A Forum wouldn't become too "high-brow" or whatever.
edit: And in my opinion A Forum should be a very noob-friendly place. I don't know how to accomplish that. It seems like a lot of new users would start posting there first, especially if they're like me and don't know as much about Pokemon battling as most members. I don't see any possible reason to scare away new members.
edit: And in my opinion A Forum should be a very noob-friendly place. I don't know how to accomplish that. It seems like a lot of new users would start posting there first, especially if they're like me and don't know as much about Pokemon battling as most members. I don't see any possible reason to scare away new members.
Dang.
If I'm actually bugging anyone by being here, I shouldn't post anywhere near as much :( I was worried about that.
(At least I think I understood your message.)
edit:
I think my post made it very clear that I knew my ideas might be bad. I still think it would be good for there to be a noob-friendly place to discuss general things, obviously not A Forum but maybe something new, but I know that might be a bad idea. And of course I would be seriously whacked if I actually thought I should change a place's culture :)
But thanks :) I bet you are right.
If I'm actually bugging anyone by being here, I shouldn't post anywhere near as much :( I was worried about that.
(At least I think I understood your message.)
edit:
(S)he called me dumb, and (s)he provided the core message in all caps, so I'm pretty darn sure (s)he was annoyed by my post. And I have reason to believe that other people are bugged by me being here too. And there is very little positive reason for me to be here because I can't help with Pokemon.
I think my post made it very clear that I knew my ideas might be bad. I still think it would be good for there to be a noob-friendly place to discuss general things, obviously not A Forum but maybe something new, but I know that might be a bad idea. And of course I would be seriously whacked if I actually thought I should change a place's culture :)
But thanks :) I bet you are right.
No. no. It's just a good idea to lurk a bit in a forum (any forum, especially a forum) before posting so you can understand the culture there. If you think your post contributes to the thread, do not be shy about posting it. The worst thing that can happen the first time is a warning.
Maybe I picked the wrong time to check, but at the moment A Forum page one seems to be 90% serious discussions (including IR threads). Also Vesner's example seems to have become a pretty good thread in spite of the firebotlike interference.
I think the main difference in terms of political discussion between cong and now is DK's threads got trolled a lot more, so he stopped posting them. But these generally werent good threads, hence the trolling.
Sure brusque partisan dickery back and forth has its appeal, but lets not kid ourselves by calling it good discussion.
The election in America is already starting to happen again, once that really gets under way I expect there will be a lot of discussion around that. Maybe one of you guys could get in early with a thread on it.
Have a nice day.
I think the main difference in terms of political discussion between cong and now is DK's threads got trolled a lot more, so he stopped posting them. But these generally werent good threads, hence the trolling.
Sure brusque partisan dickery back and forth has its appeal, but lets not kid ourselves by calling it good discussion.
The election in America is already starting to happen again, once that really gets under way I expect there will be a lot of discussion around that. Maybe one of you guys could get in early with a thread on it.
Have a nice day.