np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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Terrakion's weak to Bullet Punch, and it's also weak to Water and Fighting, whose priorities are all over for Excadrill already.

I just came on here to say Reuniclus is probably the best Poke I have used to force easy wins. It's so, so easy to use.
 
The fuck are you saying? i said that Donphan is hardly deadweight as a ground type against Thunderus due to Sturdy blocking any OHKOs and access to Stome Edge and Ice Shard allowing it to kill Thunderus.

At any rate the post this was responding to is dead now so w/e.
I thought you where confused on how Donphan can have sturdy, and still have 4th gen moves. Its not that hard of a mix up, considering the wording of your post.
 
Also, DD Mence just got a little bit more broke with one less check. Same for QD Volcarona.
I don't know if it is just me, but I have seen many more volcarona that in the previous suspect rounds. I have seen it so much that I am using Stone Edge on Gliscor just to ko it. Also, I have noticed that with each suspect round, some pokemon just seem to become stronger and more difficult to deal with...
 
Remember, one reason Mence was banned in Gen IV was because its revenge killers Flygon and Jirachi had a 50% chance to kill it and win the game. Now it's even worse: Using faster scarfers like Starmie, Latios and Gengar ensures that +1 Volcarona rapes your ass by surviving lots of stuff with rocks off the field.
 

Blightbringer

Banned deucer.
Lol, thats not a very good argument man, that can be said about tons of pokemon/strategies.
What are you talking about? He asked me why I listed two good counters to Baton Pass teams. Obviously I mentioned them because many people aren't experienced with Baton Pass and may not have known about them.
 
lol why were you using that
well, i could rant on it for hours lol but the three main reasons are:

1. i run pure offensive teams so every pokemon must have the offensive pressure to threaten a sweep at all times.

2. i needed stealth rock BAD because sturdy kept screwing me over and garchomp seemed like a good canidate since it forces many switches. this and most of what it couldnt set up sr on it could kill (had it outrage through a few teams on its own).

3. it was a lot of fun and threw a lot of people off.

anyways, thats the basics. i know its extremely gimmicky but it was surprisingly effective. one of those "hey, what if" moments i had talking with a friend.
 
Remember, one reason Mence was banned in Gen IV was because its revenge killers Flygon and Jirachi had a 50% chance to kill it and win the game. Now it's even worse: Using faster scarfers like Starmie, Latios and Gengar ensures that +1 Volcarona rapes your ass by surviving lots of stuff with rocks off the field.
I have never had a problem with Volcanora, you don't even have to outspeed it, just use something to take the hit. Heck my snorlax counters the thing in the fucking sun. And with the right prediction, you can easily counter it, and if it has the wrong HP, its screwed. And that was last gen, with a single pokemon that are considered overpowered, this gen there are tons of offensive threats, with that logic, we should just send them all to uber.
 
not to mention that terrakion can hard counter most +1 volcarona variants anwyways assuming hp rock over ground. thats the biggest problem ive had when using the moth.
 
I have never had a problem with Volcanora, you don't even have to outspeed it, just use something to take the hit. Heck my snorlax counters the thing in the fucking sun. And with the right prediction, you can easily counter it, and if it has the wrong HP, its screwed. And that was last gen, with a single pokemon that are considered overpowered, this gen there are tons of offensive threats, with that logic, we should just send them all to uber.
what about physically defensive chestorest sets? It would get at least +4 on snorlax if you stayed in.
 
Alright people are getting tired of hearing me bitch on IRC so it's time for an actual post.

Fuck Excadrill.

Why is this thing still in OU? You'd think after four rounds people would realize how horrible it is for the metagame. Time after time I hear "Excadrill is fine, it has a bunch of checks" which is laughably wrong. Excadrill's extreme lack of checks centralizes the metagame to a ridiculous degree and puts horrible strain on teambuilding. The only viable pokemon that can reliably counter Excadrill are Gliscor and Skarmory. Slowbro is 2HKOed by adamant LO after rocks, Bronzong is one of the worst Excadrill checks possible (it can check one of Excadrill, Latios, Landorus, etc. per match... but crumbles under the pressure of two on the same team), and other less bulky pokemon predictably fall under pressure from the stupidly powerful adamant LO Excadrill. Priority is also mentioned a fair amount as a way to check Excadrill, but only two priority users can OHKO Excadrill: TechniTop and CB Azumarill. TechniTop is not viable in OU, and CB Azumarill barely makes the cut.

This puts tremendous strain on teambuilding. If you don't have Gliscor, Skarmory, or auto-weather, you're at a gigantic disadvantage right from the start. Whenever Excadrill is in, you're almost guaranteed to lose a pokemon, if not the game. Random Air Balloons and weak mach punches don't cut it. Given the power of Excadrill and its extremely limited list of checks, teambuilding is forced to follow standard archetypes. You can use Gliscor or Skarmory, which only work well on balance and stall, or you can change the weather and hope you can win the weather war.

Think you can use spikestacking offense? Better have an Excadrill plan because it will outspeed and OHKO most of your team. How about heavy offense, targeting all those Gliscor and Skarmory you see in response to Excadrill? Same deal. If you try to make a non-weather offensive team, Excadrill will destroy it. This takes a key element of strategy out of the standard OU metagame that is present in every other fun metagame Smogon has.

In addition, just by existing, Excadrill makes Thundurus much more broken than it should be. The reason is that Excadrill directly outclasses every scarf user in the game, and at the same time reduces the viability of having a choice scarf user on your team. Why use scarf Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, etc. when you can just use Excadrill. Tyranitar is a pretty good pokemon so its not hard to fit on your team, and LO Excadrill revenges everything. As a result, scarf users (that don't abuse the extra power from drizzle/drought) are rare if not non-existent. Scarf attacks have always been relatively weak, and giving Excadrill a free set-up when you could just be using Excadrill yourself is always a questionable call, and rarely an objectively good one. This fucks up speed tiers in OU - Excadrill is clearly the fastest, followed by scarf Politoed, then the base 111's, etc. Of course people can't handle Thundurus! It's a frail but deadly sweeper that could normally be kept under control by an unprepared team with residual damage and revenge killing, but revenge killing in this metagame has become an inferior option to simply walling stuff, and that's because Excadrill exists! The only exception to this is rain offense, and that's what drives weather wars and the general "why am I playing the same game over and over" feeling of BW. I guarantee that if Excadrill is banned, diversity will flourish out of what used to be nothingness, and fast set-up sweepers like Thundurus will become much more manageable.

All of that and I never even got to how stupidly easy it is to sweep with Excadrill or how Rapid Spin Excadrill makes full stall unviable... I'm cutting it off here.

Summary:
Excadrill limits teambuilding to set archetypes, makes otherwise healthy and fun playstyles unviable, and outclasses scarfers to the point where it is the only viable non-drizzle or drought revenge killer.
 
1. Drizzle makes Fire types unviable This one is obvious. With a 50% decrease in the power of their STAB moves, Drizzle ruins the viability of all fire types. It is definite that without Rain being so common, pokemon like Heatran could make the top 5 while Infernape and Volcarona could become the top-tier sweepers they wish they were. It is also wholly possible that pokemon like Arcanine, who is very powerful in UU and has many new options in Gen V could make low OU. This is especially obvious with Darmanitan, who would normally be much higher but is now placed low at the #53 spot because its only good point is its ultra-powerful Flare Blitz.
I'm sorry, but I really don't like this argument. It's like saying "Stealth Rocks makes Ice types unviable" I don't know if you or anyone else has notice, but there is only 1 ice type in OU right now and that's Cloyster(who would of guessed lol). You could say the same thing with Drought, so, I don't think this is a viable argument.

2. Drizzle makes sandstorm more viable then they already would be. We all know how great sandstorm is, and we all know that it is the dominant playstyle in OU. One thing that many people don't realize is that it is only so great because it can counter rain. For players who choose not to use Drizzle, there is only one other option to remain viable in OU. For reasons I will explain below, non-weather teams are pathetic when compared to any type of weather. The fact that Drizzle encourages the already most common pokemon in the game is simply unforgivable. Soon we will reach a stage where Tyranitar will be similar to Scizor in late Platinum OU, where I think he had over 30% usage. The game will revolve around Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Gliscor. Not good for diversity, or for balance.
Ok, I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but no, drizzle is not the only reason sandstorm is great. Sandstorm has amazing synergy and it's really easy to use, mostly because T-tar not only sets it up, but can use it effectively. That's one of the problems with Rain and Sun, the starters can barely abuse the weather as much as t-tar can with sand. I bet you if drizzle was banned, I really do not think the top 10 will change that much.

3. Any Pokemon that can't abuse rain (or other weathers which counter rain) is unviable. I want you to pull up the May 2011 usage. Read off the top 20 Pokemon in OU. Only 2 Pokemon, Conkeldurr and Gengar, lack the ability to abuse weather. More than half of OU gains a boost in usage, while the other half gets a decrease in usage. Its like taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich; and its all caused by Drizzle for the most part.
This argument is more directed at weather in general and should be more brought up in a clear skies debate, and you don't even mention drizzle until the last line when you basically say: "it's all drizzle's fault". I really want to know why is most of the blame is on drizzle and what do I say to the rest of this argument? Tbh, deal with it. People just get over that this is a weather metagame like they did with Stealth Rock.

4. A Drizzle team has an automatic advantage when facing a team without weather. A Drizzle team gets many advantages that a normal team doesn't have, and can build its movesets accordingly. For one, it has double STAB on water moves. This allows is to hit everything, and hit it hard unless that thing's name is Ferrothorn. Secondly, it can avoid Fire moves on its team. In this scenario, the Drizzle teams saves several moveslots that are wasted on the team of the opponent. That can mean all the difference. Rain also allows for 100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes. Let's say that two Starmies, at full health, are facing off for the win. The one on the rain team will succeed simply because it has that free 20% extra damage. Think about it this way: if two equally good players battle, the one will rain will more likely win due to these advantage raising his/her odds.
This is sadly true, but I would also say that Sand and Sun also get those advantages over teams without weather too. This is just how this metagame is.

5. Drizzle has no drawbacks, only positives. There is no reason to NOT use Drizzle. It can beat sandstorm, gives many advantages, and can neutralize potential threats in Volcarona, Darmanitan, etc. There is no drawback. Unlike sandstorm, it can't hurt your own Pokemon.
Just to point it out, you contradicted yourself. You original said that sandstorm can counter rain, but now you're saying Drizzle beats it. Anyway, there drawbacks to using Drizzle:
1. You have to use Politoed. Politoed can't do much, it pretty much sets up rain and switch. You're pretty much using 5 1/2 pokemon.
2. You have to have rain up. If rain is not up, then your chances of winning drop to almost 0.

There may be more, but I can't think of them right now.

6. A Drizzle team, when facing a team with one or two fire types, is more likely going to win simply due to team matchup. Lets say that I have a team with two fire types. Neither have a weakness to Stealth Rock, and both are perfectly viable in OU like Heatran and Infernape. In the rain, I essentially have two potential deadweights. Its like the score is 6-5 right off the bat. Or lets say that I am running a Drought team. I am already at a disadvantage due to the fact that Grass types don't even get a STAB boost in the sun. Like above, if I am just as good as my opponent, I am more likely to lose. This reduces the entire metagame to luck, and those who run into more teams that they are effective against can do better. It was not like this before in Gen 4, where anything could be played around. You cannot play around Rain. It will always be there, nerfing your Pokemon and boosting theirs.
Team matchup happens all the time though, it even happens between when two normal teams battle and why again is fire so special? I could say because I'm facing a Sunny Day team that my water pokemon is useless. Gliscor counters Excadrill, so now Excadrill is now dead weight. Also, I'm not entirely sure why you're using two fire types on team(unless it's Sunny Day, then it will be 3), that's just poor team building.

I hope you guys don't think I'm an idiot, and I hope you try to refute my position, as that is what Smogon is all about. Thank you.
You, like all pro-ban Drizzlers, make it out to be some big bad wolf. It's just that most of your arguments also apply to weather in general. You just can't pick one weather and apply those arguments to them.
 

mien

Tournament Banned
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
All of that and I never even got to how stupidly easy it is to sweep with Excadrill or how Rapid Spin Excadrill makes full stall unviable... I'm cutting it off here.
When i used a full stall team to reach the top 5 on the ladder, Rapid Spin Excadrill didn't bother me that much. Rapid Spinning prolongs the battle to a significant degree but that does not guarantee victory by any means.

Summary:
Excadrill limits teambuilding to set archetypes, makes otherwise healthy and fun playstyles unviable, and outclasses scarfers to the point where it is the only viable non-drizzle or drought revenge killer.
You know the ban-happiness is getting out of hand once people start banning based on a speculation that the metagame 'might' become better and more balanced if it gets banned rather than being near impossible to handle. I'd say it's pretty arrogant of you to think that you can correctly predict the outcome on the metagame by a banishment, while in reality nobody can in a extremely complex game like pokemon.
 
It's all a factor of weather.

If we ban Excadrill (and even Thundurus), Sand Storm becomes an anti-weather with Hail, Drizzle dominates the meta and Drought is at his shoulders.

Excadrill is one pokémon that i loved for his design and it was incredible when i discovered his faboulous power, but now i think it's time for Exca to go and for Drizzle. Maybe Drought can stands for another round but Exca & Drizzle need to go, seriously.
 
I'm sorry, but I really don't like this argument. It's like saying "Stealth Rocks makes Ice types unviable" I don't know if you or anyone else has notice, but there is only 1 ice type in OU right now and that's Cloyster(who would of guessed lol). You could say the same thing with Drought, so, I don't think this is a viable argument.
Your ice type example is terrible. Ice types are the worst defensive type in the game, and are not worth the STAB. Anyway, the impact of Stealth Rocks is often overexaggerated. SR prevents no one from using Dragonite, Gyarados, etc. The way that it impacts those 2x weak to rock is nowhere near losing your STAB. Admittedly, it does impact those 4x weak to rock in a huge way, but those are few and far between. So, in short, SR does make Ice types slightly less viable, but not enough to severely damage usage, like Drizzle for fire types.

Ok, I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but no, drizzle is not the only reason sandstorm is great. Sandstorm has amazing synergy and it's really easy to use, mostly because T-tar not only sets it up, but can use it effectively. That's one of the problems with Rain and Sun, the starters can barely abuse the weather as much as t-tar can with sand. I bet you if drizzle was banned, I really do not think the top 10 will change that much.
Of course its not the only reason why sandstorm is great. But it most certainly encourages it, which you made no effort to refute. Think about it this way: if a player wants to make a non-drizzle team, what can they use to be viable in this metagame? Sandstorm.

This argument is more directed at weather in general and should be more brought up in a clear skies debate, and you don't even mention drizzle until the last line when you basically say: "it's all drizzle's fault". I really want to know why is most of the blame is on drizzle and what do I say to the rest of this argument?
Well, this is partly true, but much of it is due to rain. Like I said above, rain encourages sandstorm, which in turn encourages rain. This is what causes the huge imbalance of weather abusing Pokemon.

This is sadly true, but I would also say that Sand and Sun also get those advantages over teams without weather too. This is just how this metagame is.
So I guess you want a metagame centered around certain weather abusing Pokemon, where all teams have the same set of 6 and all you have to do to win is keep you weather up? Then I guess we are on different pages here.

Just to point it out, you contradicted yourself. You original said that sandstorm can counter rain, but now you're saying Drizzle beats it. Anyway, there drawbacks to using Drizzle:
1. You have to use Politoed. Politoed can't do much, it pretty much sets up rain and switch. You're pretty much using 5 1/2 pokemon.
2. You have to have rain up. If rain is not up, then your chances of winning drop to almost 0.
You are mistaken, I did not contradict myself in the slightest. The fact is that sandstorm counters rain, and rain counters sandstorm. You need one of the two to ever win. Ever heard of the "Weather Wars"? Well, that's what I was referring to. As for the drawbacks to Drizzle, I meant the weather itself. As in, it doesn't hurt your Latios like sandstorm.

Team matchup happens all the time though, it even happens between when two normal teams battle and why again is fire so special? I could say because I'm facing a Sunny Day team that my water pokemon is useless. Gliscor counters Excadrill, so now Excadrill is now dead weight. Also, I'm not entirely sure why you're using two fire types on team(unless it's Sunny Day, then it will be 3), that's just poor team building.
You failed to understand any point I made. You gave the example of Excadrill being countered by Gliscor. Well, that takes a team slot and effort on the part of the opponent to switch in and so on. For Drizzle, you can counter entire portions of the metagame without any effort made whatsoever. Excadrill can play around Gliscor, or your team can eliminate him for the sweep. You can't play around Drizzle, unless you use sandstorm, which only strengthens my argument.


Tbh, deal with it. People just get over that this is a weather metagame like they did with Stealth Rock.
Like I said above, a "weather" metagame is not a healthy metagame. Do you want the cumulative usage of Tyranitar, Politoed, and Ninetales to be 100%? Do you want teams centered around the same cores over and over again. Do you want a metagame centered around getting lucky with team matchup? There is no way to play around Drizzle. Never before in Pokemon has there been something that can't be played around. You know, judging by your arguments, you simply don't agree with me on what a desirable metagame is.
 
I'm totaly agree with SupaChinChin.
Poli & Tales are weak and you must let them survive if your opponent have a different weather (if he/she have the same weather, well...enjoy your mirror match), if you dont, well it's pretty gg...damn guys....you loose a poke, you loose the match, it's that the meta that you want ?
 
Things that limit diversity substantially need to be banned
Sure, let's go with that. Goodbye, Stealth Rock! Goodbye, <insert any Pokemon who outclasses several others>!

Things that offer a significant advantage to the user at no cost need to be banned
This statement doesn't really mean much of anything. We may as well ban the 4th moveslot under this rule. Or egg moves. Or items. Or any ability that doesn't suck.

As I've said before, we don't ban things because we are punishing them for being "too good". That would be stupid. We ban things because they make the game unplayable.

Anything that reduces the metagame to "team matchup" needs to be banned
Perhaps I'm just not understanding you properly, but it's been impossible to create a team that counters everything for years and years now. Which means that matchups are a major part of the game. If you really want a game where matchups and luck don't matter, go pick up chess.

1. Drizzle makes Fire types unviable This one is obvious. With a 50% decrease in the power of their STAB moves, Drizzle ruins the viability of all fire types. It is definite that without Rain being so common, pokemon like Heatran could make the top 5 while Infernape and Volcarona could become the top-tier sweepers they wish they were. It is also wholly possible that pokemon like Arcanine, who is very powerful in UU and has many new options in Gen V could make low OU. This is especially obvious with Darmanitan, who would normally be much higher but is now placed low at the #53 spot because its only good point is its ultra-powerful Flare Blitz.
Fire Pokemon have deeper problems than Drizzle. As you said, Darmanitan's only real selling point is that it has a stupidly powerful Flare Blitz - anything that one-dimensional will have a hard time excelling in the OU metagame, Rain or no. Fire's a pretty mediocre defensive type to begin with (weak to Ground, Rock, and Water isn't a great place to be), so it's not surprising that there aren't a ton of them floating around, especially when the offensive coverage isn't ideal, either (aside from Steels, the other things it hit Super Effectively aren't that common).

Mostly, I suggest you just plain don't bother trying to figure out what the metagame would look like without Rain, because you will fail. Metagames are fickle, unruly beasts, and it's impossible to predict the exact results of any significant change. It's sort of like predicting the weather or the economy in that regard.

Not to mention that this exact argument could be used to ban Stealth Rock, since it creates a metagame that severely favors SR resistant Pokemon and severely punishes SR weak ones.

2. Drizzle makes sandstorm more viable then they already would be. We all know how great sandstorm is, and we all know that it is the dominant playstyle in OU. One thing that many people don't realize is that it is only so great because it can counter rain. For players who choose not to use Drizzle, there is only one other option to remain viable in OU. For reasons I will explain below, non-weather teams are pathetic when compared to any type of weather. The fact that Drizzle encourages the already most common pokemon in the game is simply unforgivable. Soon we will reach a stage where Tyranitar will be similar to Scizor in late Platinum OU, where I think he had over 30% usage. The game will revolve around Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Gliscor. Not good for diversity, or for balance.
...Huh?

This argument is quite the reach at best. By severely weakening things that clearly have an advantage over them, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Gliscor will see less play? I'm just not seeing it.

If any type of weather beats non-weather, than there would, by extension, be even more Sandstorm teams to fill the gap if Rain was gone. Especially since Sandstorm does not counter Rain very well at all; on the natural Rock/Paper/Scisors of weather wars, Rain beats Sandstorm (due to Rain abusers/inducers having natural advantages over their Sand counterparts). While this matchup priority certainly isn't an absolute (particularly at higher levels of play), saying that Drizzle encourages Sandstorm specifically is a questionable argument.

Indeed, what's stopping me from saying that it isn't the opposite that's true? Perhaps Rain sees more play because Sandstorm is such a common force in the metagame. Something being used to counter something else is much more plausible when the something else is more common than the something, no? If Sun counters Rain counters Sand counters Sun, the logical assumption is that the abstract best weather will see the most play, followed by the counter, followed by its counter. So Sand > Rain > Sun in that scenario. Which is what the data would indicate.

3. Any Pokemon that can't abuse rain (or other weathers which counter rain) is unviable. I want you to pull up the May 2011 usage. Read off the top 20 Pokemon in OU. Only 2 Pokemon, Conkeldurr and Gengar, lack the ability to abuse weather. More than half of OU gains a boost in usage, while the other half gets a decrease in usage. Its like taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich; and its all caused by Drizzle for the most part.
This argument was crap when Nkululeko made it, and guess what? It's still crap. With a couple exceptions, the top 20 in OU are the top 20 in OU because they are good. Not because they are weather "abusers". If you can seriously claim that stuff like Ferrothorn and Reunculus wouldn't see just as much (if not more) usage in a weatherless metagame, then I don't think I can help you.

And just to piss Nkululeko off, I'll say it again: Correlation does not imply causation. Just because the top 20 are mostly composed of Pokemon who can do well in weather does not mean that you can say that the top 20 are used because of weather. Nor can you say that weather is used because the top 20 are good in it. Those are unsupportable conclusions.

And "it's all caused by Drizzle" is an incredibly silly assertion. You really, really need to be careful not to make arguments that start at the conclusion and go backwards, especially when past evidence clearly refutes it. As you yourself said, Sand was the dominant force last generation, with many of the most common Pokemon being extremely good in it. It is incredibly careless to say that it is common this generation because of Drizzle.

4. A Drizzle team has an automatic advantage when facing a team without weather. A Drizzle team gets many advantages that a normal team doesn't have, and can build its movesets accordingly. For one, it has double STAB on water moves. This allows is to hit everything, and hit it hard unless that thing's name is Ferrothorn. Secondly, it can avoid Fire moves on its team. In this scenario, the Drizzle teams saves several moveslots that are wasted on the team of the opponent. That can mean all the difference. Rain also allows for 100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes. Let's say that two Starmies, at full health, are facing off for the win. The one on the rain team will succeed simply because it has that free 20% extra damage. Think about it this way: if two equally good players battle, the one will rain will more likely win due to these advantage raising his/her odds.

5. Drizzle has no drawbacks, only positives. There is no reason to NOT use Drizzle. It can beat sandstorm, gives many advantages, and can neutralize potential threats in Volcarona, Darmanitan, etc. There is no drawback. Unlike sandstorm, it can't hurt your own Pokemon.
Since these are really the same point, I'll just argue both by saying that it cuts both ways. By running Drizzle, you are making it harder on yourself to counter Steel, Grass, Bug, and Ice Pokemon as you cannot successfully run Fire attacks to counter them. You don't "save moveslots" this way, you lose options. Also, your Water-neutral Pokemon are suddenly taking large amounts of damage from incoming Water attacks as well, so your Scizor can now be OHKO'd by strong Water or Fire attacks instead of only Fire attacks.

Then there is the fact that you're spending one team slot on the mediocre Politoed, the fact that this mediocre Pokemon needs to be sent in early, and the fact that you need to tailor your team around Rain in order to make it work (albeit to a much lesser extent if you are simply using Politoed as an anti-Sand/Sun Pokemon, as many people do). Basically, by running Drizzle, you've just made your team that much more predictable.

While I won't insult you by claiming that Drizzle doesn't have serious benefits and few drawbacks, it's not like any given Rain threat cannot be countered, especially with the worst offenders (the Swift Swimmers) out of the game.

6. A Drizzle team, when facing a team with one or two fire types, is more likely going to win simply due to team matchup. Lets say that I have a team with two fire types. Neither have a weakness to Stealth Rock, and both are perfectly viable in OU like Heatran and Infernape. In the rain, I essentially have two potential deadweights. Its like the score is 6-5 right off the bat. Or lets say that I am running a Drought team. I am already at a disadvantage due to the fact that Grass types don't even get a STAB boost in the sun. Like above, if I am just as good as my opponent, I am more likely to lose. This reduces the entire metagame to luck, and those who run into more teams that they are effective against can do better. It was not like this before in Gen 4, where anything could be played around. You cannot play around Rain. It will always be there, nerfing your Pokemon and boosting theirs.
This is basically just point 1 all over again, but I'll echo the question of why you're using two Fire-types on the same team without being Sun. As previously stated, Fire is a mediocre typing anyways.

Ultimately, I'm starting to agree with some of the whiny anti-Smogon people on sites like GameFAQs. Not for most of their unsupported hate, but I do agree that we are perhaps becoming a little too ban-happy. Our goal should not be to craft a perfect metagame, since it's unfeasible and we might as well start from scratch and make our own game. We should really try to ban only the things that pose a serious risk to the game being fun and competitive, not simply because things are "broken". If you hadn't noticed, Generation 5 made everything and their mother broken, so if we ban everything broken we won't have much of anything left.

Once we've obtained a workable metagame, we should stop banning stuff. If there is nothing around that cannot be reasonably dealt with, the metagame is at a point where future bans cannot guarantee a better metagame. And there's nothing in this metagame that cannot be reasonably dealt with, including each of the weathers (if the solution is to save a space on your team for weather of your own, then so be it - we should not ban something because players are unwilling to counter it). While the metagame isn't perfect, it's plenty fun to play so long as you aren't going to whine about the weather.

I'm starting to think that a separate Clear Skies tier might be the best solution if it means we can stop having these petty squabbles. If it means that we can finally let the metagame settle instead of banning something new every couple months, even better.

And for what it's worth, weather is inherently centralizing. Not perma-weather, just weather in general. Weather abilities are extremely powerful, and the weathers themselves give a significant boost as well. It should come as no surprise that basically every metagame that has at least one decent weather inducer uses it, while pretty much every other one sees significant abuse of Damp Rock abuse. Only when weather is nerfed into oblivion can weather be ignored.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Diversity will always be limited, no matter the metagame. In mtg, Jace the Mind Sculptor keeps me from playing a good nuymber of creature cards that hit the field on turn four or later unless they have an immeadiate effect on the board. In Pokemon, Tyranitar keeps me from playing Chandelure, houndoom, or any ghost, fire, or dark type pokemon that is simply fodder for him. Stealth rock prevents me from using the likes of Rotom-H (who is far from a bad pokemon and the greatest counter to Scizor the game has given us), Zapdos, or many of the otherwise decent pokemon that SR hurts a bit too much for my liking unless said pokemon is amazing.

That's the way the metagame works. In order to play around something, you sometimes have to dedicate part of your team to doing so. This is only bad when there aren't many options for it. I can sort of see where people are coming from in the case of Excadrill (aside from ignoring perfectly good balloon pokemon who can turn the momentum of the match around in an instant. Inner Focus Lucario, guys? No chance of Rock Slide flinch. Free Nasty Plot? Proceed to late game sweep?).

I think I'm starting to become swayed on the drizzle arguement though. The fact that I'm starting to think Rai may be right in banning ferrothorn simply because of the drizzle boost may mean that drizzle does indeed push certain pokemon over the edge. I'll come back after excessive ladder experience.
 
what about physically defensive chestorest sets? It would get at least +4 on snorlax if you stayed in.
I haven't done the calculations, but basically any volcanora I have seen, snorlax has beaten. I think return with max attack and choice band might outright 1HKO the thing, no matter how defensive it is. Also I get stealth rocks up most of the time. Either that or in 2 weeks of playing with my sun team, I oddly haven't seen a single chesto-rest volcanora.
 

shrang

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Alright people are getting tired of hearing me bitch on IRC so it's time for an actual post.

Fuck Excadrill.

Why is this thing still in OU? You'd think after four rounds people would realize how horrible it is for the metagame. Time after time I hear "Excadrill is fine, it has a bunch of checks" which is laughably wrong. Excadrill's extreme lack of checks centralizes the metagame to a ridiculous degree and puts horrible strain on teambuilding. The only viable pokemon that can reliably counter Excadrill are Gliscor and Skarmory. Slowbro is 2HKOed by adamant LO after rocks, Bronzong is one of the worst Excadrill checks possible (it can check one of Excadrill, Latios, Landorus, etc. per match... but crumbles under the pressure of two on the same team), and other less bulky pokemon predictably fall under pressure from the stupidly powerful adamant LO Excadrill. Priority is also mentioned a fair amount as a way to check Excadrill, but only two priority users can OHKO Excadrill: TechniTop and CB Azumarill. TechniTop is not viable in OU, and CB Azumarill barely makes the cut.

This puts tremendous strain on teambuilding. If you don't have Gliscor, Skarmory, or auto-weather, you're at a gigantic disadvantage right from the start. Whenever Excadrill is in, you're almost guaranteed to lose a pokemon, if not the game. Random Air Balloons and weak mach punches don't cut it. Given the power of Excadrill and its extremely limited list of checks, teambuilding is forced to follow standard archetypes. You can use Gliscor or Skarmory, which only work well on balance and stall, or you can change the weather and hope you can win the weather war.

Think you can use spikestacking offense? Better have an Excadrill plan because it will outspeed and OHKO most of your team. How about heavy offense, targeting all those Gliscor and Skarmory you see in response to Excadrill? Same deal. If you try to make a non-weather offensive team, Excadrill will destroy it. This takes a key element of strategy out of the standard OU metagame that is present in every other fun metagame Smogon has.

In addition, just by existing, Excadrill makes Thundurus much more broken than it should be. The reason is that Excadrill directly outclasses every scarf user in the game, and at the same time reduces the viability of having a choice scarf user on your team. Why use scarf Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, etc. when you can just use Excadrill. Tyranitar is a pretty good pokemon so its not hard to fit on your team, and LO Excadrill revenges everything. As a result, scarf users (that don't abuse the extra power from drizzle/drought) are rare if not non-existent. Scarf attacks have always been relatively weak, and giving Excadrill a free set-up when you could just be using Excadrill yourself is always a questionable call, and rarely an objectively good one. This fucks up speed tiers in OU - Excadrill is clearly the fastest, followed by scarf Politoed, then the base 111's, etc. Of course people can't handle Thundurus! It's a frail but deadly sweeper that could normally be kept under control by an unprepared team with residual damage and revenge killing, but revenge killing in this metagame has become an inferior option to simply walling stuff, and that's because Excadrill exists! The only exception to this is rain offense, and that's what drives weather wars and the general "why am I playing the same game over and over" feeling of BW. I guarantee that if Excadrill is banned, diversity will flourish out of what used to be nothingness, and fast set-up sweepers like Thundurus will become much more manageable.

All of that and I never even got to how stupidly easy it is to sweep with Excadrill or how Rapid Spin Excadrill makes full stall unviable... I'm cutting it off here.

Summary:
Excadrill limits teambuilding to set archetypes, makes otherwise healthy and fun playstyles unviable, and outclasses scarfers to the point where it is the only viable non-drizzle or drought revenge killer.
See my earlier points on having to run "weak pieces of shit" to counter Excadrill. I don't want to run weak walls like Gliscor and Skarmory just to check Excadrill (or run weather), but it looks like I have to.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Also, oh fucking no CB azumarill i'll have to run something that can OHKO Ttar, Gliscor, Excadrill, Terrakion, Volcarona, Victini, and others. WAT DO?
 
You know the ban-happiness is getting out of hand once people start banning based on a speculation that the metagame 'might' become better and more balanced if it gets banned rather than being near impossible to handle. I'd say it's pretty arrogant of you to think that you can correctly predict the outcome on the metagame by a banishment, while in reality nobody can in a extremely complex game like pokemon.
Don't put words in my mouth or judge my argument by the summary. Excadrill is still near-impossible to handle unless you run Gliscor or Skarmory. I've just spent the last two or three rounds under the impression that everybody is ok with that for some reason, and decided to focus the bulk of my argument on Excadrill's horrible effect on the metagame. I covered how it has only two reliable counters and two reliable checks.

Also, I didn't say 'might'. I said 'will'.
 

Mario With Lasers

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In addition, just by existing, Excadrill makes Thundurus much more broken than it should be. The reason is that Excadrill directly outclasses every scarf user in the game, and at the same time reduces the viability of having a choice scarf user on your team. Why use scarf Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, etc. when you can just use Excadrill. Tyranitar is a pretty good pokemon so its not hard to fit on your team, and LO Excadrill revenges everything. As a result, scarf users (that don't abuse the extra power from drizzle/drought) are rare if not non-existent. Scarf attacks have always been relatively weak, and giving Excadrill a free set-up when you could just be using Excadrill yourself is always a questionable call, and rarely an objectively good one. This fucks up speed tiers in OU - Excadrill is clearly the fastest, followed by scarf Politoed, then the base 111's, etc. Of course people can't handle Thundurus! It's a frail but deadly sweeper that could normally be kept under control by an unprepared team with residual damage and revenge killing, but revenge killing in this metagame has become an inferior option to simply walling stuff, and that's because Excadrill exists! The only exception to this is rain offense, and that's what drives weather wars and the general "why am I playing the same game over and over" feeling of BW. I guarantee that if Excadrill is banned, diversity will flourish out of what used to be nothingness, and fast set-up sweepers like Thundurus will become much more manageable.
This... actually makes a lot of sense. I've never looked at Excadrill that way. I guess I'm going to ladder paying attention to Excadrill more than Thundurus this time.
 
Why is all this ban happy crap coming up
In fourth gen we banned things and eventually
through trial and error made one of the most balanced metagames of pokemon
sure the mence ban was a bit debatable but i think it was for the best
and now when we try to get anything done in this metagame we have people that scream we are ban happy
the only time that wasnt the case was for the moody ban
its not that i dont expect dissent
but its not that were ban happy
its that people are trying to make a better metagame for everyone
 

GatoDelFuego

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1. You have to use Politoed. Politoed can't do much, it pretty much sets up rain and switch. You're pretty much using 5 1/2 pokemon.
2. You have to have rain up. If rain is not up, then your chances of winning drop to almost 0.
What's wrong with politoed? With rain and choice specs, it can do ~50% damage to a blissey with hydro pump. Politoed is an incredibly underrated powerhouse, and can abuse the rain as well as any other poke on the team can.

I'm sorry, but I really don't like this argument. It's like saying "Stealth Rocks makes Ice types unviable" I don't know if you or anyone else has notice, but there is only 1 ice type in OU right now and that's Cloyster(who would of guessed lol). You could say the same thing with Drought, so, I don't think this is a viable argument.

Ok, I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but no, drizzle is not the only reason sandstorm is great. Sandstorm has amazing synergy and it's really easy to use, mostly because T-tar not only sets it up, but can use it effectively. That's one of the problems with Rain and Sun, the starters can barely abuse the weather as much as t-tar can with sand. I bet you if drizzle was banned, I really do not think the top 10 will change that much.

This argument is more directed at weather in general and should be more brought up in a clear skies debate, and you don't even mention drizzle until the last line when you basically say: "it's all drizzle's fault". I really want to know why is most of the blame is on drizzle and what do I say to the rest of this argument? Tbh, deal with it. People just get over that this is a weather metagame like they did with Stealth Rock.

This is sadly true, but I would also say that Sand and Sun also get those advantages over teams without weather too. This is just how this metagame is.

Just to point it out, you contradicted yourself. You original said that sandstorm can counter rain, but now you're saying Drizzle beats it. Anyway, there drawbacks to using Drizzle:
1. You have to use Politoed. Politoed can't do much, it pretty much sets up rain and switch. You're pretty much using 5 1/2 pokemon.
2. You have to have rain up. If rain is not up, then your chances of winning drop to almost 0.

There may be more, but I can't think of them right now.

Team matchup happens all the time though, it even happens between when two normal teams battle and why again is fire so special? I could say because I'm facing a Sunny Day team that my water pokemon is useless. Gliscor counters Excadrill, so now Excadrill is now dead weight. Also, I'm not entirely sure why you're using two fire types on team(unless it's Sunny Day, then it will be 3), that's just poor team building.

You, like all pro-ban Drizzlers, make it out to be some big bad wolf. It's just that most of your arguments also apply to weather in general. You just can't pick one weather and apply those arguments to them.
I'm really not getting your point through all of this. You don't seem to have any argument against drizzle, you only constantly talk about how the other weathers have the same advantages of drizzle. What's your stance on drizzle? It seems like you are putting all the weathers on the same level (which, I think they are all equally broken).
 
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