Because they don't outspeed almost everything and 4HKO their 'counters' (and 1/2HKO almost everything else.)If flinchhax is so terrible, why are jirachi and togekiss OU? Give them both scarfs and they can "flinchhax the shit out of prepared teams" too.
True, but iirc I was refering to Excadrill only being powerful under Sand and otherwise easily dealt with.cept without the idiotic hax chance. If Chomp only had Unnerve as an ability, it wouldn't have been banned, IMHO
Banning and Tiering are two sides of the same coin. By banning a pokemon from one tier you are forcing it into higher tiers. Technically, the difference is purely semantics as we essentially "tiered" Blaziken into Ubers by banning it from OU. I believe we have enough complex bans already and don't see the point in any more. Blaziken is currently banned from OU, and if it bothers you that much make a case for why Speed Boost Blaziken should be OU because tbh that's what made facing it ridiculous in the first place. And the argument of Blaze Blaziken not being broken is irrelevant, we banned Blaziken.-Lots of Pokémon have a good ability and a bad one; we are talking about banning the BROKEN abilities, not tiering the good ones.
Nice lolJT could you please tell me how your chansey is able to have 5 moves at once and inflict two status conditions on one pokemon at the same time? If I knew how to do that with my pokemon shaymin-s surely wouldn't be a threat.
Skymin outspeeds most of OU and gives the opponent about a 40% chance to attack and a 30% chance to have its full Sp Def. When a pokemon consistently puts your opponent at such a disadvantage unless they run one of about 3 pokemon, it's broken.That was sarcasm. Kinda implied by ice beam on chansey.
Kefka, go back one page and have a look at the damage calcs I posted. Air slash is a 4HKO on specially defensive -2 skarm. Seed flare can't 2HKO -2 bronzong. Air slash is a 5HKO on -2 chansey.
Skymin has checks shooting out of it's huge ears. It can be handled regardless of flinches and drops. Stop glorifying it. (Everyone, I mean. Not just you Kefka.)
Excadrill makes scarfers obsolete? Really? What if I need different resistances to switch into something for the revenge kill? What if I need to use a different type of attack? What if I need to use a special move? Scarf terrakion still outspeeds everything regardless of excadrill's existance.
Scarf Terrakion - 519 Speed
Excadrill in the Sand - 604
So no Scarf Terrakion does not outspeed.
You do realise revenge kill means you switch in for free ? Meaning you don't need to resist anything.Do you even play the game ?
Also, what happens if we unban skymin? Will the entire metagame flinch collectively? Probably not. How about the beneficial effects? Consider this:
Scarf skymin can switch in on adamant excadrill's EQ and outspeed it.
The fact that you have to scarf something with base 127 Speed in order to have a 50% chance of outspeeding (Jolly/Adamant) in the first place is ridiculous.
Ever heard of scarf Jolteon / Aerodactyl ? Neither have I
It can take on rain and sand teams, functioning as a cover all check.
The calcs I posted show that skymin has plenty of checks in OU. The majority of which don't even need to run a dedicated set. Hell, even standard conkeldurr can take it on with stone edge! I've said it before and I'll say it again: Skymin is annoying, but it's not broken. If a pokemon is OU viable it should be in the OU tier regardless of how many people dislike it. I thought that smogon policy was to have a diverse metagame with as few bans as possible?
LOOOOOOOOL standard Conkeldurr can take Skymin on with Stone Edge?
Saying stuff like this is going to make people not take you seriously.
STAB super effective Air Slash coming off 120 Special Attack with a 60% flinch chance.Yup , Conkeldurr totally owns Skymin
The calcs you posted are simply that,calcs.You failed to take into consideration a little something called Serene Grace.Calcs are worthless when you Special Defense keeps getting lowered / you get flinched to death
Skymin wouldn't limit diversity. It doesn't endanger any specific playstyles (maybe heckle hyper offense teams with a scarf?) or target any specific pokemon. It would promote rotom-H and mamoswine use (yay!) It's unique as well. That is, I don't think that it outclasses anything. Flying type attackers? Tornadus is still better. It has higher special attack, prankster support and hurricane. Togekiss? Better bulk, nasty plot, twave, body slam, roost... Grass types? It can't outperform defensive/bulky grass types. Celebi, venusaur and virizion are the only offensive grass types in OU that use special attacks. I don't think that skymin outclasses any of them. Maybe it's presence would encourage scarf use?
No comment.Ask anyone if they would rather go up against Venusaur or Skymin and I guarantee you the answer will be the same 100% of the time.What the hell do you mean Skymin doesn't outclass Celebi + Venusaur as a Grass type special attacker ?
And yeah Tornadus is SO MUCH better.That's why Skymin is Uber and Tornadus didn't even make the cut for OU right?
So skymin isn't going to limit diversity, it won't outclass anything, it's easily dealt with if you prepare for it and it has some potentially beneficial effects.
Hmm let's see.How do most people counter / prepare for a special attacker?
Oh I know ! Blissey ! Surely that'll stop Skymin without a doubt right?Wrong
Serene Grace Special Defense drops means even Bliss won't stop it all the time.
Why is it uber?
Because it's too good for OU.
That being said, I noticed only OU Pokemon suffer this fate. I don't really care about Skymin, because he's a legendary Pokemon anyways, but non legendaries getting banned sicken me. At least UU is really good
So what if something that isnt legendary has above average stats and something that makes it difficult to hard counter like say idk, sand veil? Suicune isnt banned though should it get banned?Well Phione only has average stats, so I guess it can go to UU or something.
Regardless of what the great kings ban, I'll still follow rules. I have learned Ubers allow any Pokemon. Maybe a mixed tier battle wouldn't really care about what Pokemon are banned, as long as that battle allows Ubers.
I guess I can just think of Tiers as a rating of how good a Pokemon is.
We know, that's why it got banned...What I mean is Garchomp's ability just makes it too evasive to get killed, and afterwards it'll kill your team in return
I doubt it, the usual policy is that once a poke is banned every variant is too.Which is why I'm asking for an opinion
If Rough Skin Garchomp gets released sometime soon, would anyone here put it in suspect for OU?
Somebody would, but it would have to be a complex ban and we're not exactly nice to those right now.Which is why I'm asking for an opinion
If Rough Skin Garchomp gets released sometime soon, would anyone here put it in suspect for OU?
It's not silly, it stops things getting massively out of hand. Pokemon with different abilities in different tiers is just stupid.That policy is silly, but we can't really do much to change it for now. Just live with it or do a Mixed Tier battle if anyone cares so much.
I wasn't planning on having Garchomp on my team anyways.
This is just a minor nitpick really, but what you're saying here is that there is no competitively relevant mechanical difference between abilities and items. In-game (the thing that we're, you know, trying to simulate), there is a mechanical difference in that every Pokemon has a certain ability at their creation, and said ability cannot be changed for said Pokemon in any way, which is different than an item/moves/EVs/level. Sure, you could say we'd then have to look at IVs/natures/egg moves/event moves that way, but that's not what you were suggesting here. For the record, while I do believe that Blaze Blaziken should be unbanned, I've also recognized the validity of certain opposing viewpoints, and have realized that this is simply preference on my part, and therefore no longer worth arguing about on a competitive forum.Like I said, there is no mechanical difference whatsoever between abilities and items. Sorting those out alone would be a huge hassle for a single Pokémon, but it would be necessary for the sake of fairness. Hell, a Pokémon's level is revealed as soon as it comes out (and even shows in the team preview of PBR, though that isn't relevant). It would be much easier to enforce a level cap than an ability combo ban in an exhibition or tournament setting.
The big point is that the given arguments against weather can be applied to SR, and while we are fine with a metagame shaped by SR, we are apparently not fine with a metagame shaped by weather, which is hypocritical.Never mind that pretty much every argument ever made against Drizzle/Drought/Sandstream applies to Stealth Rock but nobody even cares about that. I suggested someone use something with Occa Berry on it to reverse trap ST Chandelure once and was laughed at; I guess I should have said to run a 20 power Normal attack instead. Overcentralizing is bad, right? But Stealth Rock being mentioned on every single analysis ever written is perfectly normal, and entire types being banished out of standard because of this one move is healthy and desirable.
I don't even want this to be about Stealth Rock because I'm tired of beating that drum. It's not that I even want SR banned- it's just that if we're going to ban everything else, we might as well ban this too. Why not, right? It just baffles me that we can go on this banhappy rampage with our made-up words and unstandardized definitions and completely ignore the worst offender of them all.
How come people get to just flip-flop between the usage tiers and ban tiers being different and the same, as long as it fits their point? I mean, don't get me wrong, you haven't contradicted yourself, but I've seen it argued (sorry I can't remember where, I think it's from a thread wanting to ban something from Ubers or something dealing with the difference with RU/BL) where usage tiers and ban tiers are treated differently due to how they are formed, and now here it's said they are the same and the difference is "purely semantic". We should stick to one or the other, and IMO we should stick to "they're different", since they really are. If we do stick to this, then Uiru's point stands proudly, while the current counter-points fall flat on their asses backs.Banning and Tiering are two sides of the same coin. By banning a pokemon from one tier you are forcing it into higher tiers. Technically, the difference is purely semantics as we essentially "tiered" Blaziken into Ubers by banning it from OU. I believe we have enough complex bans already and don't see the point in any more. Blaziken is currently banned from OU, and if it bothers you that much make a case for why Speed Boost Blaziken should be OU because tbh that's what made facing it ridiculous in the first place. And the argument of Blaze Blaziken not being broken is irrelevant, we banned Blaziken.
guess you forgot it learned leech seed?That was sarcasm. Kinda implied by ice beam on chansey.
Kefka, go back one page and have a look at the damage calcs I posted. Air slash is a 4HKO on specially defensive -2 skarm. Seed flare can't 2HKO -2 bronzong. Air slash is a 5HKO on -2 chansey.
Skymin has checks shooting out of it's huge ears. It can be handled regardless of flinches and drops. Stop glorifying it. (Everyone, I mean. Not just you Kefka.)
How come people get to just flip-flop between the usage tiers and ban tiers being different and the same, as long as it fits their point?
I mean, don't get me wrong, you haven't contradicted yourself, but I've seen it argued (sorry I can't remember where, I think it's from a thread wanting to ban something from Ubers or something dealing with the difference with RU/BL) where usage tiers and ban tiers are treated differently due to how they are formed, and now here it's said they are the same and the difference is "purely semantic".
We should stick to one or the other, and IMO we should stick to "they're different", since they really are. If we do stick to this, then Uiru's point stands proudly, while the current counter-points fall flat on their asses backs.
Keyword: annoying. "Annoying" is completely subjective (I mean, Poison Heal Gliscor is annoying as shit to me, more than Send Veil Gliscor in DPPt) and, if the ability doesn't break other pokémon, it is not banned.I honestly don't see why there's not just a ban on Sand Veil alltogether, other pokes (Gliscor) can abuse it aswell (albeit not crushing a team the way chomp can, but it's still annoying when someone gets a free turn). I mean, Brightpowder got banned, and that's only half the chance of hax..