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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Because they don't outspeed almost everything and 4HKO their 'counters' (and 1/2HKO almost everything else.)
Skymin was pretty definitely sent to Ubers, and it is not coming back. At all. I'm not even saying this as an opinion, I highly doubt those in power here are ever going to even consider allowing it back in for testing, let alone into the actual OU tier again.
True, but iirc I was refering to Excadrill only being powerful under Sand and otherwise easily dealt with.
Banning and Tiering are two sides of the same coin. By banning a pokemon from one tier you are forcing it into higher tiers. Technically, the difference is purely semantics as we essentially "tiered" Blaziken into Ubers by banning it from OU. I believe we have enough complex bans already and don't see the point in any more. Blaziken is currently banned from OU, and if it bothers you that much make a case for why Speed Boost Blaziken should be OU because tbh that's what made facing it ridiculous in the first place. And the argument of Blaze Blaziken not being broken is irrelevant, we banned Blaziken.
Nice lol
Skymin outspeeds most of OU and gives the opponent about a 40% chance to attack and a 30% chance to have its full Sp Def. When a pokemon consistently puts your opponent at such a disadvantage unless they run one of about 3 pokemon, it's broken.
Bt since you're so interested in bringing Ubers down to OU, why don't you make a case for Speed Boost Blaziken?
That being said, I noticed only OU Pokemon suffer this fate. I don't really care about Skymin, because he's a legendary Pokemon anyways, but non legendaries getting banned sicken me. At least UU is really good
Since when does ANYONE force you to play by Smogon's rules? Smogon bans non-legendaries because they're BROKEN.
Smogon doesn't care if they're legendary or not, it's all cold-hard data.
Well Phione only has average stats, so I guess it can go to UU or something.
Regardless of what the great kings ban, I'll still follow rules. I have learned Ubers allow any Pokemon. Maybe a mixed tier battle wouldn't really care about what Pokemon are banned, as long as that battle allows Ubers.
I guess I can just think of Tiers as a rating of how good a Pokemon is.
Regardless of what the great kings ban, I'll still follow rules. I have learned Ubers allow any Pokemon. Maybe a mixed tier battle wouldn't really care about what Pokemon are banned, as long as that battle allows Ubers.
I guess I can just think of Tiers as a rating of how good a Pokemon is.
That being said, I think evasion doesn't shows at all that you're good at Pokemon, so maybe Garchomp got banned because of that subset that was commonly used in Sandstorms.
So what if something that isnt legendary has above average stats and something that makes it difficult to hard counter like say idk, sand veil? Suicune isnt banned though should it get banned?
Ah yes, then we look at that ability to see if if makes it too overpowered. If yes, it gets banned to Ubers until an ability that makes it right for OU comes out.
Suicune hasn't gotten banned yet, and will never get banned
Suicune hasn't gotten banned yet, and will never get banned
What I mean is Garchomp's ability just makes it too evasive to get killed, and afterwards it'll kill your team in return
We know, that's why it got banned...
Which is why I'm asking for an opinion
If Rough Skin Garchomp gets released sometime soon, would anyone here put it in suspect for OU?
If Rough Skin Garchomp gets released sometime soon, would anyone here put it in suspect for OU?
I doubt it, the usual policy is that once a poke is banned every variant is too.
Somebody would, but it would have to be a complex ban and we're not exactly nice to those right now.
That policy is silly, but we can't really do much to change it for now. Just live with it or do a Mixed Tier battle if anyone cares so much.
I wasn't planning on having Garchomp on my team anyways.
I wasn't planning on having Garchomp on my team anyways.
I honestly don't see why there's not just a ban on Sand Veil alltogether, other pokes (Gliscor) can abuse it aswell (albeit not crushing a team the way chomp can, but it's still annoying when someone gets a free turn). I mean, Brightpowder got banned, and that's only half the chance of hax..
@SuperHydreigon1996: It's the Blaziken debate all over again, complex bans are annoying.
@SuperHydreigon1996: It's the Blaziken debate all over again, complex bans are annoying.
It's not silly, it stops things getting massively out of hand. Pokemon with different abilities in different tiers is just stupid.
This is just a minor nitpick really, but what you're saying here is that there is no competitively relevant mechanical difference between abilities and items. In-game (the thing that we're, you know, trying to simulate), there is a mechanical difference in that every Pokemon has a certain ability at their creation, and said ability cannot be changed for said Pokemon in any way, which is different than an item/moves/EVs/level. Sure, you could say we'd then have to look at IVs/natures/egg moves/event moves that way, but that's not what you were suggesting here. For the record, while I do believe that Blaze Blaziken should be unbanned, I've also recognized the validity of certain opposing viewpoints, and have realized that this is simply preference on my part, and therefore no longer worth arguing about on a competitive forum.
I don't understand why people keep arguing against Uiru's Weather vs Stealth Rock point by using arguments for weather that could easily be applied to Stealth Rock. They say that SR only really affects 4 types, but that's just it; it REALLY affects those four types. Plus, Drizzle/Drought really only affects 2 types (Water/Fire), so it's actually worse on that front.
This isn't even getting into the fact that his argument wasn't really about banning SR; here's what his argument was:
The big point is that the given arguments against weather can be applied to SR, and while we are fine with a metagame shaped by SR, we are apparently not fine with a metagame shaped by weather, which is hypocritical.
How come people get to just flip-flop between the usage tiers and ban tiers being different and the same, as long as it fits their point? I mean, don't get me wrong, you haven't contradicted yourself, but I've seen it argued (sorry I can't remember where, I think it's from a thread wanting to ban something from Ubers or something dealing with the difference with RU/BL) where usage tiers and ban tiers are treated differently due to how they are formed, and now here it's said they are the same and the difference is "purely semantic". We should stick to one or the other, and IMO we should stick to "they're different", since they really are. If we do stick to this, then Uiru's point stands proudly, while the current counter-points fall flat on their asses backs.
As an aside, it seems nobody reads white text or understands humor, since I found your post/quote hilarious PK Gaming. Or maybe I'm just an insensitive prick. Either/or.
tldr; Besides his point on Moody (which he himself has conceded) and with how badly I want to argue Blaze Blaziken unbanned, I agree with Uiru's posts.
guess you forgot it learned leech seed?
At least you later acknowledge that this in no way applied to my post.
I don't formally represent all Smogon posters so the fact that somebody presented another idea would mean that person and I disagree. But I digress, you presented that as if you "exposed" me for a comment that I didn't make.
IIRC I didn't mention whether banlist tiers or usage tiers differed at all. This sounds more like you being annoyed at someone else. It's natural to want the opinion you want to prevail to "win" but I just don't see how this applies to me. If usage tiers and "ban tiers" are different then it doesn't change the fact that to ban a pokemon (for instance Kyurem) from a tier (in this case UU) it is essentially tiering said pokemon into a higher tier (where you the player are now allowed to use it). Hope I cleared up any confusion.
The role of usage in tiering is to determine what pool of Pokemon would be eligible for the lower tiers. Pokemon whose usage falls below a certain threshold in OU are eligible in UU; the usage of Pokemon in UU determines their eligibility in RU.
Ban comes into play when Pokemon initially bought down in a lower tier was deemed too intolerable in that environment through suspect testing. These monsters would not be allowed in the lower tier (they got banned), yet they are not exactly 'qualified' to be in the higher tier (due to their low usage in the higher tier). So they are in a tier between the two tiers (ie BL).
Ban comes into play when Pokemon initially bought down in a lower tier was deemed too intolerable in that environment through suspect testing. These monsters would not be allowed in the lower tier (they got banned), yet they are not exactly 'qualified' to be in the higher tier (due to their low usage in the higher tier). So they are in a tier between the two tiers (ie BL).
Keyword: annoying. "Annoying" is completely subjective (I mean, Poison Heal Gliscor is annoying as shit to me, more than Send Veil Gliscor in DPPt) and, if the ability doesn't break other pokémon, it is not banned.
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