To say drizzle isn't game breaking is pretty silly tbh . Considering the dozens of pokemon that benefit it like , any water pokemon or those pokemon that carry the insane specs hurricane. Its far far far more broken than 4th gen salamence. The reason why drizzle is broken has been stated too many times by me and others. Additionally it just makes the game boring as hell. Alphatrons post was funny as shit but its true. The metagame is so overcentralized ( yeah i said it dont give a flyin fuck) . Drizzle gives pokemon that are generally not a threat in a balanced metagame a 4th gen salamence brokenness to them. Any good drizzle team can beat a sand team. Thats a fact. I have used it enough to know. Politoed by itself beats sands top threats without set up.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Where are you getting "you need weather to win" from exactly? I use ttar on a lot of my teams for latios, who is much harder to deal with than politoed imo. Sure, every team needs to run a water resist or two, but needing a water resist isn't a new concept (see: gens 1-4).
Stop bitching about rain and go run a rotom or celebi or ferrothorn or latias.. yknow, counters.
Stop bitching about rain and go run a rotom or celebi or ferrothorn or latias.. yknow, counters.
haunter
Banned deucer.
How exactly is it gamebreaking? Just because it gives support to several Pokemon it must be broken? The only Pokemon that can abuse "insanely powerful" hurricanes is almost UU (and dont tell me that specially D-Nite is game breaking with its average SpA and Spe). The comparison with Salamence is just completely randdom so I won't even discuss on it.
Opinions, just opinions.
You may find it boring, but others find it funny and diverse. Overcentralization not only means nothing (see my signature) but according to the server stats sand is far more centralizing than rain.
This is just your opinion, and I'm still wondering which parameters you're considering to make that statement.
That's a fact just in your mind. I can easily say that well built sand teams can easily beat rain.
lol what? Politoed is almost ohko'd by CB TTAr's stone edge and LO'd Excadrill's EQ. How is it supposed to beat those when it can't even switch in?
Instead of banning speed boost itself, ban having the combination of that ability and the Pokemon that's broken with that ability like Blaziken. Isn't Blaze Blaziken still UU?
I will answer only to the bolded part since i am not in the mood to start discussing all your points...
So you ask what stops drought in ou that was missing in uu???
difficult question....
So let's see..
Maybe a reason is that ou has better pokes then uu....Maybe it is the fact that in ou there are 4 dragons,heatran,Skarmory etc...
Of 'course they are handled also 'cause of weather but it's not the only reason...
OU is OU and UU is UU.How can you really say that the only difference between these 2 tiers when it comes to handling sun are 2 pokes???
OU has 52 more available pokes that's why it can use handle sun teams...
If you think that OU could handle sun teams without heatran,dragonite,skarmory and the other dragons then you are gravelly mistaken...
Sand Stream > Drizzle is the right order as of now!
Rain mons also don't get their speed boosted since aldaron's proposal was implemented...So this point of yours is null...
And finally anti-rain people should stop reffering to post-aldaron's proposal drizzle when they describe it...Sure saying double stab and double speed sounds scary but it is irrelevant.Drizzle as of now doesn't give any speed boosts!So stop reffering to the speed boost like it matters 'cause it don't...
When only a select few pokemon can switch in to it its pretty broken. along with the confusion which has fucked me up many times.
I like the metagame too. Its fun sometimes. But seeing the same 3 teams in the team preview is pretty annoying. The game lacks diversity right now. And "metagame" also is not a word but we still use it in pokemon.
Once you take out ferrothorn or jirachi what the hell is gonna take a specs hydro pump in rain? Rotom-w even takes a assload from specs hydro pump. The fact is a sand team offers less diversity to work effectively which in turn offers more diversity to beat it. yeah you can use lati@s but they also take alot from boosted attacks.
i can easily just wait till my gliscor/jirachi/ferrothorn/rotom/tornadus/thundurus/starmie etc. and all my other sand counters and just weaken the team then sweep with scarf politoed (its best set) at the end. I think the reason why sand is more popular is that the rules of pokemon are better fit with a sand team. A "core" can be easily created. Plus I think excadrill's unmatched speed tier is more aesthetically pleasing along lower rated players which boost it.
I didn't forget non-weather teams. But Ninja's point was that to counter drizzle, you must use weather inducers as well. It's true that I go a little too far by throwing Abomasnow and Hippowdon out, but it seems too centralizing.
But as I said at the end of the post, I'm not against Drizzle as it is now.
Either it stays or either it leaves, I don't care. I just don't like to be in a weather war (so using a weather team against a weather team), but as long as I can use a non-weather team without being hampered too much against weather teams, I don't care.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Only a select few? Really? Rock, Steel and Electic types all resist Flying, use some of them if you really have troubles with hurricane. How is a 30% confusion chance even relevant? By your argument we should also ban Machamp and confuse ray.
Then definion of "metagame" is not as subjective as the one of "overcentralizing". The game will always centralize around some Pokemon, see Scizor in Gen IV, but that's not a symptom of their brokeness. Anyway I'd say that having 3 available (4 considering Hail) weathers guarantees enough diversity to the game.
Jellicent, Vaporeon, Gastrodon are all immune to water and do exceptionally well against rain teams. You're just too close minded to look for alternatives other than ban the Pokemon you've troubles with.
What does your sentence even mean? According to your argument we should ban literally everything as you can weaken every Pokemon's counter and then proceed to sweep with that Pokemon. In the end all comes down to team building and battling skills.
I just love how you totally disregard my previous post for the sake of trying to make a point Alexwolf. >.>
The fact that 'till round 2 drizzle was broken doesn't mean anything!The drizzle we have now is without double speed boosts so saying that in the past it did give speed boosts says nothing!
So what if drizzle was very powerful before 4 months???
Does this say anything?
Yes it says that something had to be done!And so aldaron's proposal came to light.So now it's power level is absolutely fine...!It is so annoying saying to others that in the past,drizzle,gave double speed boost to some pokes just to make it sound powerful...
Finally no Jellicent is not setup fodder for Thundurus....
Can you make a guess on how much damage a rain boosted surf would deal to Thundurus?
206 Atk vs 196 Def & 299 HP (95 Base Power): 160 - 189 (53.51% - 63.21%)!
Take SR into account and thundurus will be left with 22% life at best...
So thundurus cannot exactly switch in safely into Jellicent...Of 'course it can switch into recover or will-o-wisp but saying that she is setup bait for thundurus is at least ignorant...
My Opinion on da weathar crap0rz
Hiding it cuz no one likes Walls of Text >:(
Sand
Rain
Sun
lolHail
There's my most likely flawed opinion about the weathers. Enjoy and nitpick away.
Hiding it cuz no one likes Walls of Text >:(
Sand
Honestly, I hate Sand. Not because of Excadrill, or Landorus, but because of Tyranitar. It sickens me to see him in nearly every battle I have, but who can help it? He's such a good pokemon that constantly gets more and more moves from Troll Freak and they can't even give Flareon ONE move he desperately wants while they give like 10+ moves to T-tar every Gen :(
Erm, I don't really think Excadrill is broken. Despite his massive attack and speed, he still relies a lot on Sand and OHKO'ing because even with that massive HP, he dies to almost anything. Kinda funny to me that a Lefties Megahorn from Max Attack Escavalier deals like 60% to him and Max Def Escavalier can survive 2 +0 Earthquakes :P
I do admit, sometimes it is hard to deal with him, but there are just SO many things in OU and even UU and RU that can take a hit and cripple the mole or just pwn him with priority.(Although there are less priority users that can OHKO than bulky pokemon that can OHKO him)
Landorus is a bitch. He's fast and he can hit hard, but he has the same counters and checks as Excadrill. This causes a bit of a problem, but at the same time, it's also their downfalls. Neither of them like dealing with a super bulky Milotic.(NOT SAYING YOU NEED THE SUPER FEEBAS TO BEAT THEM)
Erm, I don't really think Excadrill is broken. Despite his massive attack and speed, he still relies a lot on Sand and OHKO'ing because even with that massive HP, he dies to almost anything. Kinda funny to me that a Lefties Megahorn from Max Attack Escavalier deals like 60% to him and Max Def Escavalier can survive 2 +0 Earthquakes :P
I do admit, sometimes it is hard to deal with him, but there are just SO many things in OU and even UU and RU that can take a hit and cripple the mole or just pwn him with priority.(Although there are less priority users that can OHKO than bulky pokemon that can OHKO him)
Landorus is a bitch. He's fast and he can hit hard, but he has the same counters and checks as Excadrill. This causes a bit of a problem, but at the same time, it's also their downfalls. Neither of them like dealing with a super bulky Milotic.(NOT SAYING YOU NEED THE SUPER FEEBAS TO BEAT THEM)
Rain
Everyone seems to hate this thing now, even after the nerfs.
Oh, Thundurus is too strong :L
Oh, Tornadus keeps confusing me :L
Oh, Starmie is hurting me :L
Oh, Ferrothorn can take a 70 BP unSTABed Fire move :L
Oh, Toxicroak isn't useless :L(btw, how exactly does Croak stop Sand teams? Whenever I tried, he kept getting rofl-stomped by EQs or just out sped >.>)
Oh, I can't Toxic that Whiscash :L
Meh, we've dealt with Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps for a while now and I don't think it's such a huge problem.
Thunder and Hurricane? I kinda prefer them over Outrage since they have more resists.(well, except Hurricane...that thing is a bitch to tank sometimes)
Starmie was still threatening without Rain and is still walled by Ferrothorn even in said Rain.
Ferrothorn and Scizor? They still die to STABed Fire attacks and did you really expect them to die to weak SE moves? Hell, 252/128 Sassy Ferro can survive HP Fire from a +2 Serperior(498 Sp.A) without weather so even that Swampert's HP Fire wouldn't do much :L
Rain just makes him a little bit tougher to crack, but he still has that fighting weakness ;)
No one really complains about Toxicroak or HydraRest pokemon(aside from Manaphy) so I'll just ignore those.
tbh, I kinda like Drizzle. It provides some variety instead of just looking at T-tar's face all day :L
Oh, Thundurus is too strong :L
Oh, Tornadus keeps confusing me :L
Oh, Starmie is hurting me :L
Oh, Ferrothorn can take a 70 BP unSTABed Fire move :L
Oh, Toxicroak isn't useless :L(btw, how exactly does Croak stop Sand teams? Whenever I tried, he kept getting rofl-stomped by EQs or just out sped >.>)
Oh, I can't Toxic that Whiscash :L
Meh, we've dealt with Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps for a while now and I don't think it's such a huge problem.
Thunder and Hurricane? I kinda prefer them over Outrage since they have more resists.(well, except Hurricane...that thing is a bitch to tank sometimes)
Starmie was still threatening without Rain and is still walled by Ferrothorn even in said Rain.
Ferrothorn and Scizor? They still die to STABed Fire attacks and did you really expect them to die to weak SE moves? Hell, 252/128 Sassy Ferro can survive HP Fire from a +2 Serperior(498 Sp.A) without weather so even that Swampert's HP Fire wouldn't do much :L
Rain just makes him a little bit tougher to crack, but he still has that fighting weakness ;)
No one really complains about Toxicroak or HydraRest pokemon(aside from Manaphy) so I'll just ignore those.
tbh, I kinda like Drizzle. It provides some variety instead of just looking at T-tar's face all day :L
Sun
Ahh, Sun. Has the second-worst inducer and the team members need to decide between 2x Speed and boosted weaknesses or a boosted-STAB.
Then Sun's main sweepers are just stopped cold by said Fire types and even Dragons give them trouble.
Sun's lack of good coverage is just crippling and having only one good 2x speed sweeper is sad.
Still, Kingdra takes (41.58% - 48.80%) from a 252 Attack Darmanitan's Band Flare Blitz in the Sun. Not bad against a 4x Fire resist :L
Then Sun's main sweepers are just stopped cold by said Fire types and even Dragons give them trouble.
Sun's lack of good coverage is just crippling and having only one good 2x speed sweeper is sad.
Still, Kingdra takes (41.58% - 48.80%) from a 252 Attack Darmanitan's Band Flare Blitz in the Sun. Not bad against a 4x Fire resist :L
lolHail
lol
still, don't underestimate them....that's how they get you....still lol
still, don't underestimate them....that's how they get you....still lol
There's my most likely flawed opinion about the weathers. Enjoy and nitpick away.
People have said this already, but I don't believe that indirectly nerfing or eliminating playstyles due to a ban should have this much of an impact on what we ban. As much as I like UU, I also don't think that lower tiers should impact OU's rules. The arguments of special treatment and precedent are thrown around a lot so I won't repeat them. I think that the only reason we're even looking at this argument now is that the combo ban is currently in effect. There is also a practical side to avoiding complex bans. Politoed is a pretty strong attacker thanks to Drizzle, and Swift Swim Kingdra is a good revenge killer against rain users, and yet both cannot be used together because of their synergistic potential. In that sense, it's similar to banning Tyranitar and Garchomp as a combo instead of just banning Garcomp. And that's not even getting into trying to verify that a team with both Politoed and Kingdra is legal in an exhibition or tournament match... I think that the "simulator culture" that we have here is a bit spoiled in this aspect compared to other game communities.Lee said:
All that said, I recognize that this is still largely a matter of ruleset consistency. Both of us gave pretty negligible scenarios that don't have much of an impact on the big picture. I simply care about ruleset simplicity more than you do, and that probably won't be changed. All of this also isn't *that* relevant to the present; I don't think that any of this will matter much until some future date and only in the event that Drizzle isn't banned in a "No Suspects" situation.
I'm thinking more and more that Drizzle should eventually get a two-ladder suspect test. "Special treatment" argument aside, Drizzle has a special place for this because there are very legitimate concerns over what would happen if it got banned, and this probably affects the Drizzle votes. A suspect ladder without Drizzle would either dispel or confirm the worries of the consequences of a Drizzle ban. (Again, though, this is probably only really relevant in the event that Drizzle is not banned in a "No Suspects" situation.)
I like the idea of capefeather about the two ladder suspect test. But, the voters have to play on the two ladder, to avoid that opinions take too much place.
My two cents IF drizzle get actually banned. I think that nothing that really change in usage. Politoed (if the abilities is banned) would be RU and some pokemon like toxicroak and Tornadus would be UU. Because, most of "abusers" in rain can be used correctly without it (but they're less powerful).
My two cents IF drizzle get actually banned. I think that nothing that really change in usage. Politoed (if the abilities is banned) would be RU and some pokemon like toxicroak and Tornadus would be UU. Because, most of "abusers" in rain can be used correctly without it (but they're less powerful).
i hardly think its fair that drizzle should be banned and no other weather starters are. Simple checks and balances like banning drizzle and swift-swim combos would be better, but not just drizzle by itself. having and ou weather starter for rain was a great addition to its metagame especially with the importance of weather control in gen 5.
I diregard your previous post 'cause it doesn't have anything that interests me...
But can you pls explain me why when you try to describe drizzle's power you refer to it's speed boost bonus?It is very fuuny 'cause you did something like this:this factor of drizzle is very dangerous(but it doesn't exist now).
If the double speed boost doesn't exist anymore then why the fuck do you mention it?????
To me it seems like you are just trying to make drizzle seem scarier mentioning usless and irrelevant things...
I will say it again:Drizzle as of now comes without double boosts to speed so any mentioning of them while describing drizzle is useless and misleading...
Then why did you bother responding to it? You wouldn't have responded to it if it didn't interest you. >.>
I referred to it because it is true. You can not deny that. It might not be relevant anymore, but it's true. Simple as that.
Actually, you can say it is relevant because Swift Swim is allowed with the use of Rain Dance.
I bothered responding only to the part which interested me!
True or not it doesn't matter.What matters is that when you want to say something you must present relevant arguements which prove your point...
But if you like telling irrelevant things to a discussion that's bad for you and for us who read it...
Imagine for example me trying to prove that mew should be banned from uu.So i start stating my reasons:First of all mew a former uber,can run many different sets capable of defeating their counters bla bla bla....
Do you notice how irrelevant is the fact that mew was a former uber????
That is what you did...
So pls when you say something try posting things relevant to your points or else your posts will just be ridiculous and misleading...
"Fair" is a subjective and irrelevant term. If Drizzle is broken, and the others are not, then it goes and the others stay. I'm sure there are people that don't think banning Blaze Blaziken along with Speed Boost Blaziken is "fair," but Blaziken as a whole was broken and deserved the boot.
Furthermore, weather control is only as important as it is because Drizzle was nerfed to keep it around. If it were banned like it should have been, we would only be worrying about weather control between 2 weathers instead of 3, diminishing its importance.
It wasn't broken at all. Other fighting types outclass blaze blaziken like terrikon and infernape. Yes it has better mixed stats but its speed is pretty poor even after +1.
Terrakion can't Hi Jump Kick. And for having "poor" speed, it sure managed to outspeed nearly everything :P
Mienshao can hi jump kick and SD too and it has the base speed to back it up. Blazikens ability broke it at +1 it still was slow. I remember revenging +1 speed boost blaziken with a scarf heatran. Thats how slow it is.
You can revenge an SD Mienshao with a Scarftran too >_>
Where the hell did you play?
Not only does Mienshao lack that secondary typing, it also lacked Speed Boost(so it would eventually become "unrevengable").
And AFAIK, ScarfTran is horrible now.
It doesn't matter that Blaze Blaziken was outclassed because SB Blaze is what everyone was using, and SB did not break every pokemon that used it (Yanmega who?). The ability is intrinsically part of a pokemon and unless every pokemon that has it is broken (ala Moody), the pokemon itself is what will be banned.
That said, after the turn Mienshao used SD, it was slower and weaker than Blaziken (Blaze can afford to go Adamant). Slower and weaker means revenged by Latios/Terrakion/Thundurus/etc. Blaziken could be revenged by Jolteon, Aero, and Crobat (the latter two of which are highly uncommon).
Infernape is weaker than Blaziken by all counts. Terrakion is weaker to priority, and either slower or weaker than Blaziken depending on which boost it chooses to use. Not only that, but Blaziken received a further boost from sun which was far more effective than Terrakion's +1 SpD in sand.
Blaziken's mixed set managed to both beat its usual counters and still come out on top against the majority of the things the SD set won against, making both viable options and making it highly unpredictable. The mixed set had the advantage of reaching +2 with ease as well thanks to Protect.
I'd like to see Heatran switch into Blaziken, or attempt to revenge the mixed set.
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