Either Defensive or Offensive.
Ground/Rock/Grass with Rock Polish or Ground/Grass with Leech Seed and Stealth Rocks
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Rarely Used (RU) Tier
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
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Ground/Rock/Grass with Rock Polish or Ground/Grass with Leech Seed and Stealth Rocks
Munchlax Wall vs Specs Yanmega: Body Slam = 29.1% - 34.5%
Munchlax Tank vs Specs Yanmega: Rock Slide = 95.8% - 113.7%
Munchlax has decent Attack if you invest in it but functions better as a wall I've found. He can come in again and again indefinitely to Body Slam Yanmega (and any Quiver Dancers or special boosters such as Alakazam). The threat of Paralysis is good enough to threaten them out so Rock Slide or Attack investment is not needed imo. A tank set can eventually be chipped down seeing as he doesn't even get Leftovers recovery.
I haven't tried a Curselax set, there are many great bulky set up sweepers in the tier that I don't think a mini-Curselax would be needed. Curselax has always suffered with coverage too, something that will hold it back from being a reliable strategy.
I've been caught off guard by Rock Polish Torterra before. It was surprisingly fast and strong and managed to whipe out half my team, mostly because I don't typically carry an Ice move on my team.
I think Munchlax has better things to be doing in this tier than Cursing. There's more useful moves he could be using. Heck, even some of the better Curse users of the past (Miltank is what I've tried using) have a hard time utilizing Curse down here. Normal+Coverage move does not provide enough coverage at all.
After a honeclaws, and with eviolite, it becomes just like Metagross and can do a lot of damage. Im not surprised that you had success with it.
Aggron, Sceptile, Sharpedo, Medicham are all solid options
Use Crawdaunt because he is a sexy beast. Best Dragon Dancer ever.
Wow I'm glad I found this tier, it has a bunch of my favorite pokemon in it, and I'm glad I can finally use them.
Question; How good is Vespiquen in this tier? Heal order and defend order can turn her into an amazing wall with her already good defensive bulk, and she's not too bad at dishing out hits either, with attack order and acrobatics.
Question; How good is Vespiquen in this tier? Heal order and defend order can turn her into an amazing wall with her already good defensive bulk, and she's not too bad at dishing out hits either, with attack order and acrobatics.
With no Active Ru to play around with, I got bored and compared Mamoswine's and Piloswine's Bulk
Mamoswine = 110/80/60
Piloswine = 100/80/60
Interesting only a 10 point difference in HP, combined with Evolite would Piloswine be able to tank hits and hit back? The base 100 attack stat isn't bad either.
I was thinking of a possible Piloswine set
[SET]
name: Curse-swine
move 1: Curse
move 2: Ice Shard
move 3: Icicle Crash / Icicle Spear
move 4: Earthquake
item: Evolite
ability: Snow Cloak
nature: Adamant / Brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Att / 4 SpD
After Evolite Piloswine's bulk becomes a nice 404/294/235, interesting that he can make 101 Hp subs to block Seismic toss.
Anyway onto the calculations, Note I'm using the Piloswine above after it's used 1 curse for my Calculations
Specs Modest Yanmega Bug Buzz vs Piloswine = 55.9% - 66.1%
Life Orb Naughty Honchkrow Heatwave vs Piloswine = 49% - 57.9%
Life Orb Naughty Honchkrow Superpower vs Piloswine = 54.5% - 64.4%
Life Orb Adamant Sharpedo Waterfall vs Piloswine = 54.5% - 64.4%
Life Orb Modest Sharpedo Surf vs Piloswine = 89.6% - 105.9%
Who here runs max SpA Sharpedo with Modest nature?
Choice Specs Adaptability Poygon-Z Tri-attack vs Piloswine = 73.8% - 87.1%
Tri attacks hits harder then HP-fighting when running Adaptability
Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs Piloswine = 88.1% - 104.5%
Piloswine would kill for Thick Fat, But Sadly there are no female thick fat Swinub yet so no curse and no Ice shard, yeah curse is a breeding move. Still impressive for taking a base 120 stab super effective move it's a definitely OHKO after rocks
Life Orb Adamant Gallade Close Combat vs Piloswine = 81.7% - 96.5%
Life Orb Jolly Gallade Close Combat vs Piloswine = 74.3% - 87.6%
Life Orb Jolly Gallade Shadow Sneak vs Piloswine = 9.2% - 10.9%
Gallade always 2HKO after Rocks because shadow Sneak is faster then Ice shard beacause of Gallade's speed.
Note: Piloswine can OHKO or 2HKO back with a combination of Stab move + ice Shard, except for gallade because of shadow sneak.
0 Evs in SpA and Neutral SpA nature Blastoise Scald vs Piloswine = 37.6% - 45%
No surprise here but Piloswine hates burns.
+1 Adamant Piloswine Earthqauke vs Max HP, Max Def Bold Blastoise = 44.8% - 53%
+1 Adamant Piloswine Earthqauke vs Max HP, 4 Def Blastoise (SpD Blastoise) = 61.6% - 72.9%
Who runs Physically Bulky Blastoise anyway? with Physical Walls like Tangela and Gligar and Alomomola is you want a bulky Water wall, but you never know.
No cresselia damage calculations needed, it walls everything in RU :(
Now let's see Piloswine hit some well known walls
+1 Adamant Piloswine Icicle Crash vs Max HP, Max Def Tangela = 50.3% - 59.3%
Icicle Spear maybe prefered here for multi-hits and the potential to break tangela's sub if it attempts to sub seed you or something.
Gligar calculations aren't need as he is OHKO thanks to 4x weakness to ice.
It looks more and more like the best Piloswine I can get would be to focus Piloswine tanking the physical side of the tier and spreading my Evs between HP, Att and Def, I guess Sp-def EVs might be help if I wanted to create a gimmicky set like say Curse rest talk, which is probably done better by the likes of Munchlax, Miltanks and Unaware Quagsire.
Ah well at least that was interesting.... was hoping to find a good anti-metagame pokemon in this tier.
Mamoswine = 110/80/60
Piloswine = 100/80/60
Interesting only a 10 point difference in HP, combined with Evolite would Piloswine be able to tank hits and hit back? The base 100 attack stat isn't bad either.
I was thinking of a possible Piloswine set
[SET]
name: Curse-swine
move 1: Curse
move 2: Ice Shard
move 3: Icicle Crash / Icicle Spear
move 4: Earthquake
item: Evolite
ability: Snow Cloak
nature: Adamant / Brave
evs: 252 HP / 252 Att / 4 SpD
After Evolite Piloswine's bulk becomes a nice 404/294/235, interesting that he can make 101 Hp subs to block Seismic toss.
Anyway onto the calculations, Note I'm using the Piloswine above after it's used 1 curse for my Calculations
Specs Modest Yanmega Bug Buzz vs Piloswine = 55.9% - 66.1%
Life Orb Naughty Honchkrow Heatwave vs Piloswine = 49% - 57.9%
Life Orb Naughty Honchkrow Superpower vs Piloswine = 54.5% - 64.4%
Life Orb Adamant Sharpedo Waterfall vs Piloswine = 54.5% - 64.4%
Life Orb Modest Sharpedo Surf vs Piloswine = 89.6% - 105.9%
Who here runs max SpA Sharpedo with Modest nature?
Choice Specs Adaptability Poygon-Z Tri-attack vs Piloswine = 73.8% - 87.1%
Tri attacks hits harder then HP-fighting when running Adaptability
Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs Piloswine = 88.1% - 104.5%
Piloswine would kill for Thick Fat, But Sadly there are no female thick fat Swinub yet so no curse and no Ice shard, yeah curse is a breeding move. Still impressive for taking a base 120 stab super effective move it's a definitely OHKO after rocks
Life Orb Adamant Gallade Close Combat vs Piloswine = 81.7% - 96.5%
Life Orb Jolly Gallade Close Combat vs Piloswine = 74.3% - 87.6%
Life Orb Jolly Gallade Shadow Sneak vs Piloswine = 9.2% - 10.9%
Gallade always 2HKO after Rocks because shadow Sneak is faster then Ice shard beacause of Gallade's speed.
Note: Piloswine can OHKO or 2HKO back with a combination of Stab move + ice Shard, except for gallade because of shadow sneak.
0 Evs in SpA and Neutral SpA nature Blastoise Scald vs Piloswine = 37.6% - 45%
No surprise here but Piloswine hates burns.
+1 Adamant Piloswine Earthqauke vs Max HP, Max Def Bold Blastoise = 44.8% - 53%
+1 Adamant Piloswine Earthqauke vs Max HP, 4 Def Blastoise (SpD Blastoise) = 61.6% - 72.9%
Who runs Physically Bulky Blastoise anyway? with Physical Walls like Tangela and Gligar and Alomomola is you want a bulky Water wall, but you never know.
No cresselia damage calculations needed, it walls everything in RU :(
Now let's see Piloswine hit some well known walls
+1 Adamant Piloswine Icicle Crash vs Max HP, Max Def Tangela = 50.3% - 59.3%
Icicle Spear maybe prefered here for multi-hits and the potential to break tangela's sub if it attempts to sub seed you or something.
Gligar calculations aren't need as he is OHKO thanks to 4x weakness to ice.
It looks more and more like the best Piloswine I can get would be to focus Piloswine tanking the physical side of the tier and spreading my Evs between HP, Att and Def, I guess Sp-def EVs might be help if I wanted to create a gimmicky set like say Curse rest talk, which is probably done better by the likes of Munchlax, Miltanks and Unaware Quagsire.
Ah well at least that was interesting.... was hoping to find a good anti-metagame pokemon in this tier.
Gimmicky Mono-Attacker set? WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO!?!
name: Sleepy Mono-swine (It's Not Contagious)
move 1: Curse
move 2: Ice Shard/Avalance
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Evolite
ability: Snow Cloak
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 38 Att / 220 SpD
That said, it actually isn't that terrible. Militank and Quagsire, with their recovery moves, have no need to run a SleepTalk set, which leaves Munchlax, with its far more neutral typing and much more specially balanced 135/40/85 defenses. Piloswine has a few advantages over the all-eating one, however. Ice type is wonderful offensively, with the only resists. Interestingly enough, with a positive nature and max EVs in HP and Special Defense, Piloswine has just enough to take only 40.6% - 48% from A Specs Yanmega Giga Drain, turning most powerful attack (for you) from Yanmega into a 3HKO. Tweaking the EVs a bit, and toss some in attack, and it is set. More importantly, this pig can switch into certain 'sleep at set up' pokemon like Venomoth or Lilligant, and use the opportunity to set up as well.
The -real- problem is that there is already an Ice-type with access to the combination of Curse, SleepTalk, and Avalanche/Ice Shard in RU. Lapras. Who has better typing, better abilities, and a much more solid 130/80/95 for defenses, it takes special hits a lot harder than Piloswine and can get leftovers as well. On the other hand, Evolite means Piloswine will always have higher defense. So yeah, I'd probably go with Curse Pilo without the SleepTalk.
On another note: Lapras actually is pretty solid, though Blastoise and Alomomola probably have been competing with it due to their support roles (wish and Rapid Spin).
Fun fact though, according to RU usage:
121 | Piloswine | 626 | 1.1268 |
141 | Lapras | 418 | 0.7524 |
This pokemon was OU in Gen 1. BL'd in G/S/C and R/S/E. And now -Piloswine- has higher usage than it. That's cold.
The infamous Bug/Flying defensive typing is the real thing getting in Vespiquen's way, as well as a lack of moves that help the rest of the team. She could make a decent weather starter or Tailwind user though, pivoting into Fighting, Grass, Ground moves.
A few more questions on the viability of pokemon in RU;
Absol is one of my favorites, and I love his gimmick crithax set, with super luck, scope lens, and high crit ratio moves. How would that faire?
Exeggutor. A month or 2 ago I used HarvestLum Exeggutor in OU to great extent, being able to completely MURDER each and every blissey and other walls like her. How would harvestlum exeggutor be in this tier?
Baton pass. I'm not a fan of baton pass, definately not full chain teams, they piss me off. But one pokemon that is in my favorites is a great BPer, Drifblim. How common are taunters/phazers in this tier? And what other support pokemon would be useful for a team. Specifically someone to support Drifblim, by restoring his health and such, because I want to make a team centered on him.
Absol is one of my favorites, and I love his gimmick crithax set, with super luck, scope lens, and high crit ratio moves. How would that faire?
Exeggutor. A month or 2 ago I used HarvestLum Exeggutor in OU to great extent, being able to completely MURDER each and every blissey and other walls like her. How would harvestlum exeggutor be in this tier?
Baton pass. I'm not a fan of baton pass, definately not full chain teams, they piss me off. But one pokemon that is in my favorites is a great BPer, Drifblim. How common are taunters/phazers in this tier? And what other support pokemon would be useful for a team. Specifically someone to support Drifblim, by restoring his health and such, because I want to make a team centered on him.
Absol: A few people vouch for Absol, I personally haven't used him yet and have only come across him a few times. Not as threatening as Honchkrow I feel and easily revenge killed by Espeed Entei who is very common. However Sucker Punch is a good sweeping move and Superpower gives him good coverage so I'm sure it's viable.
SD set will give you 200% damage 100% of the time while allowing you to use Life Orb for another guaranteed 30% extra stacked on top, or 260% damage 100% of the time. The only difference in the crit abusing set is the item, swapping the Life Orb for a Scope Lens, for a 50/50 chance of doing double damage again as opposed to 30% extra all the time. It's your preference really but I would stick with the Life Orb, or even Leftovers.
Exeggutor: I've used Harvest Lum before although the mechanics have been corrected so it only works 50% of the time now. Exeggutor isn't great in RU because of his many common weaknesses and I honestly cannot think of a single top threat that he can switch in on. Tropius however could work well with a Curse set and it has better rounded defences and a much better typing.
Baton Pass: Smeargle, Ninjask, Huntail, and now Xatu is going to be here too. Baton Pass is pretty serious business and there are very few Taunters and Phazers in the tier. Most people carry an Entei though to revenge so that is probably the most common threat. There's a few random Roar users around but really BP can be unstoppable if properly supported and initiated mid-late game. I haven't met many Drifblim users but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Just be aware that Huntail, Ninjask and Smeargle can pass more boosts easily and all have their own quirks/niches. Oh and Xatu, what a beast.
SD set will give you 200% damage 100% of the time while allowing you to use Life Orb for another guaranteed 30% extra stacked on top, or 260% damage 100% of the time. The only difference in the crit abusing set is the item, swapping the Life Orb for a Scope Lens, for a 50/50 chance of doing double damage again as opposed to 30% extra all the time. It's your preference really but I would stick with the Life Orb, or even Leftovers.
Exeggutor: I've used Harvest Lum before although the mechanics have been corrected so it only works 50% of the time now. Exeggutor isn't great in RU because of his many common weaknesses and I honestly cannot think of a single top threat that he can switch in on. Tropius however could work well with a Curse set and it has better rounded defences and a much better typing.
Baton Pass: Smeargle, Ninjask, Huntail, and now Xatu is going to be here too. Baton Pass is pretty serious business and there are very few Taunters and Phazers in the tier. Most people carry an Entei though to revenge so that is probably the most common threat. There's a few random Roar users around but really BP can be unstoppable if properly supported and initiated mid-late game. I haven't met many Drifblim users but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Just be aware that Huntail, Ninjask and Smeargle can pass more boosts easily and all have their own quirks/niches. Oh and Xatu, what a beast.
From running test battles so far, I found that using Drifblim to baton pass 3 stockpiles + substitute to my harvestlum exeggutor was gamebreaking in many cases. Harvestlum is still really really good, despite the nerf to 50%. I originally thought the 50% nerf would make it totally unviable, but 50% makes it function like scrafty's shed skin except much more often. Passing the boosts to exeggutor was often gamebreaking because he gained large bulk to fend off super effective hits and he has perfect reliable recovery with rest, as well as not being scared of toxic stall a single bit. Then he can ancientpower if he's in on a weak attacker, until gaining some more boosts (+1 to everything is amazing), and then utilize his stabs to win the game.
edit: On the subject of Harvest tropius, I've found Exeggutor to be by far the better user of the ability. True, tropius has better bulk, but the thing about exeggutor is that he can actually hit back with his fairly impressive SP Atk stat.
Lol cool, I didn't know you had an offensive Harvest Lum set in mind. I don't know how reliably Drifblim is able to get to +3 and a Sub, Huntail might be a good BPer because of his good synergy with Exeggutor and Eggy's STABs are good in a tier with a lack of Steels and Dragons. A Smash Passed Exeggutor could be very good with his amazing Special Attack and patched up Speed. I also like Ancient Power on Exeggutor, lets him take down a lot of potential counters! If you are using Lum Harvest as a pseudo Shed Skin then you could consider Sleep Powder over Rest, it would make Exeggutor even more annoying and the healing from Giga Drain I have found is reliable enough to not need Rest. Definitely an interesting Pokemon to use.
:) Yes my original concept for Harvest on Exeggutor was to be a stall/wall breaker, and he is fantastic on taking out things like Jellicent/Blissey (although I can't reccommend him in OU)
Where would the appropriate place be to put my set? I've used it true and to, it's been very reliable for me in the past and still can be despite 50% harvest out of sun.
Where would the appropriate place be to put my set? I've used it true and to, it's been very reliable for me in the past and still can be despite 50% harvest out of sun.
Try passing to a dragon dance dragonair. It has better bulk thanks to eviolite, has shed skin to work similarly to harvest, gets more reliable boosts, and even has similar resistances.
I love musharana so much but people overlook it for cress, when cress is gone I can see it being a top tier threat. I mean at least musharna can do damage.
Wow thanks for the brief explaination of the gimmicky mono-attacker set, One other thing Piloswine has over Laparas is neutrality to Stealth rock, although Laparas can easily heal it off with Rest.
I totally forgot about Avalance, with curse making Piloswine slower, Avalance is the best choice on a curse set, allowing Avalance to hit at a base power of 120 which hits harders then Earthquake allowing Key KOs I've missed.
+1 Curse Adamant Piloswine Avalance vs 4evs in HP Jolly Gallade = 92.1% - 108.7%
A very high chance of being OHKO after rocks, otherwise Earthquake would require Ice shard for a 2HKO but Gallade carries Shadow sneak.
+1 Curse Adamant Piloswine Icicle Crash vs Max HP, Max Def Bold Evolite Tangela = 50.3% - 59.3%
+1 Curse Adamant Piloswine Avalanche vs Max HP, Max Def Bold Evolite Tangela = 70.7% - 83.2%
Uninvested Tangela's Gigadrain vs Max HP evolite adamant Piloswine = 27.2% - 32.7%
Yip a very nice 2hko
As for Mono attacking Quagsire, I've been trying it out in OU and UU, it works relatively well near the end game once you take out all the grass type attack, and powerful hitters, Heracross in UU laughs at Quagsire before a curse :(.
Once you get that 1st curse up after you've eliminated your checks it's GG bar a crit. Toxic and Burns no longer bother you as you rest and sleep talk your way to victory.
name: Sleepy Mono-sire
move 1: Curse
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Evolite
ability: Unaware
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Works a lot like Crocune, Suicune's Bulky sweeping set in UU but Unaware prevents pokemon from setting on you except grass types like Lilligant.
I prefer using this set is because the main check to Quagsire has always been to Toxic it. With Rest talk nothing can stop you bar a lucky crit, Taunt users, water absosb (eg-Poliwrath), Strom drain (Gastrodon) which wall you or something that tries to break you with sheer power (eg - specs yanmega)
Btw Sleep talk is legal on Unaware Quagsire because Sleep talk is a Breeding move for it.
I dunno. Without a strong recovery move, Piloswine is going to have trouble. That's why I gave both Ice Shard and Avalanche; Ice Shard is good for ignoring the fact you have a speed drop, while Avalanche is good for accepting it and just rolling with it.
I am trying to find something wrong with this. Other than the fact that you get walled by Water types, and Taunt Users can really annoy you (like you said), Quagsire holds the unique niche of being able to stop a set-up sweep. Just watch out for those energy balls, petal dances, and grass knots.
Unfortunately, it shouldn't be running Evolite, should it? It should be running Leftovers.
Absol: ExtremeSpeed is a problem, and it is competing with Honchkrow for the same spot. Honchkrow is a flying type, and has better bulk. If Absol can get a Sword Dance off, though, it can hit much harder, and is faster than Honchkrow. Play around with Absol; there are a lot of bug types in this tier, but that's about it.
Exeggutor: Annoying.
Golurk Used Shadow Punch! It's Super Effective!
Exeggutor Used Rest! Exeggutor went to sleep! It regained HP!
Exeggutor used Lum Berry! It woke up!
Exeggutor's Harvest Ability regained the use of Berry!
If you can't OHKO it, it is very, very annoying
Baton Pass: This was a lot more popular in the beginning of RU, and still has a lot of potential. The loss of Mean Look being passed has somewhat caused some issues with BP; but as mentioned before, Taunt users are surprisingly uncommon in RU. It is part of the reason I consider Drapion my RU team formation; Base Speed 95 is a pretty strong speed, and access to either Sword Dance or Toxic Spikes can give Drapion the set up time it needs after a taunt. Just watch out for the Quagsire mentioned above.
There have been Female DW Woopers. It's perfectly legal.
Torkoal's Base 20 Speed is poor even after a Shell Smash. If you're gonna use it, you should probably try to make use of its small pool of support options - Rapid Spin, Clear Smog, Yawn, Stealth Rock. Any way you look at it, though, Torkoal isn't all that good at whatever you try to make it do.
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