np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]

[ligbank]

i have listen to some people and i think that a lot of people think it should be banned because it destroys 95% of the meta.
but isnt that the same with alot of other pokes ?
with that in mind i dont think keldeo is broken, only with rain support it is hard to deal with.
but with sand and 1 check/counter you can easily beat it and then it isnt that hard to beat it, i played 30-40 times agaisnt it with my sand team and only got
ohh and i dont use keldeo and i dont care if it stays or goes

 

[BKC]

Sure seemed like it but if not then that's fine.

For what it's worth , I abused Keldeo for all ~70 of my current ladder games (and a few frontier matches) and I really didn't like how easy it was to kill shit with, even in games where I was up against teams with 2 checks/counters because of how effortlessly I could make them a non-issue. The suspect ladder didn't have this and in my eyes is better for it. Therefore if I had to vote right now I'd vote to ban. I'll play some more to make sure I'm 100% sure.

 

[phantom]

This thread has devolved from "is Keldeo broken" to "look at all these rain threats that are just as bad as Keldeo".

This. Is. NOT. An. Argument. We have received confirmation that Drizzle is not going to be suspected.

I'm perfectly aware of that. The point was is that I don't think Keldeo is any different than the other rain abusers, it's the best one, sure, but you're still running Pokemon like Latias and Celebi regardless of Keldeo's presence. How is banning Keldeo seriously going to effect the makeup of the type of teams you make or how many water resits you're supposed to pack? It doesn't. It's not going to change. That's why I think banning it solves nothing. If you ban Keldeo, you're not all of a sudden going to pack one less water resist.

Note that I don't think that anything other than Keldeo is broken (barring auto-weather but that isn't getting a suspect). But if you think that Keldeo is broken and your justification for not banning it is "so are other things" then you are completely missing the point of what banning is supposed to do.

Yeah, no. If you can manage these rain threats, then you can manage Keldeo. They're all checked by the same Pokemon anyway. Which is why I don't buy into such arguments like "Keldeo restricts my team building" because you still need a way to deal with rain threats anyway and Celebi and Latias or any other Keldeo check is far from being dead weight.

 

[SaberSeven]

I've been done with the test for some time now. I only had trouble with Keldeo once during this test. That being said, I only had trouble with it because I was too reckless with my Keldeo checks that match. Other than that, I did play around Keldeo nicely in the other matches I had against it. As much of a powerhouse Keldeo is, I don't think that it's broken.

 

[Prinz]

Keldeo is without any doubt a really good mon in the current BW2 metagame, perhaps the best around but as Ojama, undisputed, gr8astard, ShakeItUp, Prague Kick and other nice guys pointed out it has a really solid counters and checks in OU which are still good mon even if Keldeo wasn't around. Jellicent is still the best spin blocker available, Toxicroak is still a really good sweeper in rain (and a check to a lots of rain teams as well), Latios and Latias are one of the best mons in general, Gastrodon blocks any volturn chain and counters Thundurus-T too, Amoonguss helps vs offensive teams with Spore as SIU already said etc. Also, with mons like Slowking and Celebi (other good answers to Keldeo as well) you need to win the 50/50 to pursuit them with Tyranitar and the opp can take advantage of your Tyranitar locked into Pursuit / Crunch as well. Think about Lucario, Landorus-T, Terrakion or Scizor in the offensive way and about Skarmory, Ferrothorn or Forretress in the defensive way so I wouldn't nom Tyranitar+Keldeo as "broken combo" as someone did in this thread, it's strong for sure but definitely not hard to beat as well. However, these kind of mons (like Jellicent, Lati Twins, Gastrodon etc) were still good even if Keldeo wasn't real so it doesn't even centralize the metagame. Otherwise, it helps to deal with some threat itself and its Choice Scarf set is a really good revenge-kill which can deal with a plethora of annoying threats that would've been even more annoying if Keldeo wasn't around. In my eyes, Keldeo helps the current metagame and it's stay there make it better. It doesn't force us to use bad mons which are good against just a threat (as Landorus' case) and it can beat some of its counter but not if they're together and most important not if it runs a wrong move in the moment. If you're running Hidden Power Bug and the opp hasn't Celebi it's basically useless. Otherwise, with Landorus you could run U-Turn and you were 1) good against all of its checks like Lati Twins or Celebi and b) you had a good move overall which allowed you to get always useful momentum. If opp didn't run Lati Twins and Celebi was even worse for him.

I think I said all I thought about Keldeo, probably will post more in the next days, I don't know yet. But I am pretty sure to say that Keldeo isn't broken or even centralize the game. It doesn't force our team building and it can't beat its counters / checks together (which are still good mons overall) and if it's running the wrong coverage move at the moment if even loses to them when they're alone. Nothing else to say, I guess.

 

[NoUserName]

If you're running Hidden Power Bug and the opp hasn't Celebi it's basically useless.

It still hits Lati twins, and even Slowking (lol) with the same power than HP Ghost. But without HP Ghost Keldeo, Jellicent walls it to the end (but Toxic in the 4th moveslot lol)

So HP Bug is not only useful for Celebi.

 

[Pieces]

Most of this thread, sans derails, has been arguing over whether a metagame with Keldeo is healthier than a metagame without Keldeo. On the last page jpw234 made some good points on how limiting Keldeo is to team-building: In order to create a viable non-HO OU team, you need to have at least one of 7 counters or a few of several more situational checks, each of which creates further restraints on teambuilding. He says, and I agree, that banning Keldeo would help free this up and create more scope for creativity.

The problem is, this is also true for something like a third of OU. You need to have a Terrakion check. You need to have a Cloyster counter. You need to have an answer to chlorophyll Venusaur. Breloom, Kyu-B, and select others collectively eliminate entire styles of play, let alone force teams to carry a check or two. This is definitely 'unhealthy' for the metagame, if you define health as freedom and versatility of play. Yet, while all of these pokemon may be 'unhealthy', none of them are broken. If we were really committed to creating the freest OU possible, we'd have to keep banning until we had something that looked more like UU than the current OU. That's not why suspect testing exists, though.

There's a quote from Aldaron in the OP that I feel a lot of people are ignoring. It says we shouldn't be testing based on which meta we like better. The point of suspect testing isn't about creating the freest, funnest, or even best metagame possible. It's about banning the broken mons and leaving us a playable game. It's possible for one pokemon to overcentralize the meta around itself to the point of being broken, but OU is so constrained that you're almost always going to be running Celebi, Jellicent, Latias, or a few lesser checks such as Tentacruel/Rotom-W/etc. anyways, and even if Keldeo happens to be the pokemon placing the most limits on teambuilding at the moment, the second most restraining 'mon is not far behind.

If we look at all the previous banned suspects, there was a solid argument that they were broken in and of themselves. Tornadus-T was unkillable and kept momentum all game, Landorus could outright beat all its counters with some luck, Deoxys-D was a guaranteed two layers every game, and so on and so forth. There is no such argument for Keldeo, making the best and only argument for banning it that it overcentralizes the metagame around itself, but that's a flimsy one when it has as many checks as it does. If requiring one or two checks from over ten was enough to make a pokemon broken, we'd be saying goodbye to almost every offensive threat in OU.

 

[Prinz]

It still hits Lati twins, and even Slowking (lol) with the same power than HP Ghost. But without HP Ghost Keldeo, Jellicent walls it to the end (but Toxic in the 4th moveslot lol)

So HP Bug is not only useful for Celebi.

Honestly, you're using HP Bug mainly for Celebi. If the opp hasn't Celebi when you're running HP Bug you can just hit Slowking (which is uncommon though) because you're probably using Icy Wind for Lati Twins, or at least Icy Wind + HP Bug. You're right that HP Bug isn't useful against only Celebi but if the opp hasn't Celebi you'd probably prefer to run something else instead of HP Bug.

 

[jpw234]

First off, Pieces, thank you for an articulate and reasonable post.

Most of this thread, sans derails, has been arguing over whether a metagame with Keldeo is healthier than a metagame without Keldeo. On the last page jpw234 made some good points on how limiting Keldeo is to team-building: In order to create a viable non-HO OU team, you need to have at least one of 7 counters or a few of several more situational checks, each of which creates further restraints on teambuilding. He says, and I agree, that banning Keldeo would help free this up and create more scope for creativity.

The problem is, this is also true for something like a third of OU. You need to have a Terrakion check. You need to have a Cloyster counter. You need to have an answer to chlorophyll Venusaur. Breloom, Kyu-B, and select others collectively eliminate entire styles of play, let alone force teams to carry a check or two. This is definitely 'unhealthy' for the metagame, if you define health as freedom and versatility of play. Yet, while all of these pokemon may be 'unhealthy', none of them are broken.

You make it sound as though everybody has just conceded that Keldeo is no different than the rest of these pokemon. The issue is that Keldeo is (unlike the rest of these pokemon) able to 2HKO every check but Amoonguss based on its set and with minimal Pursuit support can get past its three biggest counters, Celebi/Latias/Jellicent. This is not true for Terrakion, Cloyster or Venusaur. It also lacks important weaknesses that these other pokemon have - Terrakion is weak to the two most common priority moves, Cloyster's Ice type gives it a terrible SR and Fighting/Rock/Steel weaknesses, Venusaur is heavily reliant on weather and still hard walled by pink blobs/Latias/Heatran, Breloom is slow and one-dimensional with pretty much non-existent bulk (I'm not addressing Kyu-B because I think it's broken as well). Keldeo on the other hand has:
- STABs that complement each other well
- No weakness to priority moves or susceptibility to entry hazards
- Is not reliant on weather to perform well (although is better in rain)
- The ability to hit on the opposite side of the spectrum than its premier attack stat with STAB in Secret Sword (this is its biggest differentiation from Terrakion - you can't just use a "special wall", it must be a fairly bulky mixed wall that is resistant/immune to fighting AND water)
- Versatility between a multitude of sets that play entirely differently
- Synergizes well with a variety of playstyles to pressure or take down its counters

To say that "there are other pokemon which do these things" is to ignore the many unique advantages that Keldeo brings to the table.

If we were really committed to creating the freest OU possible, we'd have to keep banning until we had something that looked more like UU than the current OU. That's not why suspect testing exists, though.

That's a misrepresentation of the position. Nobody's clamoring to ban Donphan or Espeon, or even top-tier threats like Scizor or Tyranitar.

There's a quote from Aldaron in the OP that I feel a lot of people are ignoring. It says we shouldn't be testing based on which meta we like better. The point of suspect testing isn't about creating the freest, funnest, or even best metagame possible. It's about banning the broken mons and leaving us a playable game. It's possible for one pokemon to overcentralize the meta around itself to the point of being broken, but OU is so constrained that you're almost always going to be running Celebi, Jellicent, Latias, or a few lesser checks such as Tentacruel/Rotom-W/etc. anyways, and even if Keldeo happens to be the pokemon placing the most limits on teambuilding at the moment, the second most restraining 'mon is not far behind.

If Aldaron actually meant what I bolded there, than he's wrong. But I suspect you misrepresented what he meant. Crimping diversity or the entertainment value of the metagame are characteristics we should and do look to when determining brokenness. Outside of this, I and others have provided many reasons why Keldeo is actually broken under your definition.

If we look at all the previous banned suspects, there was a solid argument that they were broken in and of themselves. Tornadus-T was unkillable and kept momentum all game, Landorus could outright beat all its counters with some luck, Deoxys-D was a guaranteed two layers every game, and so on and so forth. There is no such argument for Keldeo, making the best and only argument for banning it that it overcentralizes the metagame around itself, but that's a flimsy one when it has as many checks as it does. If requiring one or two checks from over ten was enough to make a pokemon broken, we'd be saying goodbye to almost every offensive threat in OU.

I made it, and overcentralization is still a very strong argument in and of itself.

 

[Cherub Agent]

jpw234 I'm just going to point out that the Pokemon you mentioned can cheerfully get past their counters. Terrakion can run a Life Orb set with HP Ice to trounce Gliscor and Landorus-T, or the SD Rock Gem version. LO HP Ice isn't a bad set by any means as it can clear the way for other sweepers like Double Dance Landorus of your own (or conversely this Pokemon can run stuff like SD Normal Gem Explosion to kill Skarmory and leave the path free for a Scizor sweep). Venusaur can get through any of its counters with the correct assortment of moves and having teammates to cover the ones it doesn't, with Sleep Powder, HP Fire and Earthquake all perfectly viable options. Cloyster, well, I find to be pretty damn near impossible to actually wall once it's set up, and can get through counters with Kings Rock, and revenge killers such as Scarf Latios and Breloom with Ice Shard. Damn hard to get it going in the first place though.

I also have to kind of disagree that Keldeo's stabs cover eachother very well, if you take a look at its counters and checks you'll find that a pretty huge number of Pokemon resist the Water/Fighting combination. The moves it has are excellent though, no doubt, with SS hitting the physical side without splitting EVs and the insane power of Rain Hydro Pump.

Anyway, I've obtained reqs with the same joke team Shake used (Rhydon and Galvantula wreck x]) and am of the opinion that Keldeo isn't broken, and that the metagame with it is bearable (but not fun). I don't personally have much more to add to the "Keldeo isn't broken" side, but the fact that it has multiple counters (Celebi, Latias, Toxicroak, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Slowking, AMOONGUSS really cool mon here, and multiple checks (Venusaur, Dragonite, Latios, Gyarados etc.) just doesn't convince me that pony breaks the metagame. Furthermore it pretty much requires either Rain or Pursuit support to truly reach its maximum potential, and the things that it needs Pursuited arent exactly the easiest to trap. Jellicent can burn Tyranitar and Celebi can Baton Pass out or Leaf Storm it (Tinkerbell n_n)

Not to mention that I personally think that Keldeo's presence in the metagame will br missed. It provides a good offensive check to multiple nasties such as Cloyster, Mamoswine and Scizor, as well as a good revenge killer with its Scarf set to other Pokemon such as Chomper, Mence and Draggi.

 

[MMII]

The point of suspect testing isn't about creating the freest, funnest, or even best metagame possible. It's about banning the broken mons and leaving us a playable game.

I just want to harp on this point a bit because it really bothers me. It's nothing personal, you just happened to put into words a mentality that I feel like is quite commonplace. (and I just happened to read and just happened to decide I have nothing better to do but bitch about it)

Anyways, the thing to keep in mind here is that we create the metagame and the metagame is designed for us. It's not a puzzle game where we have to find a specific solution by following a strict ruleset, we design and shape this game to match our (as a community) own tastes and preferences. This means that we absolutely are trying to make it as fun as possible for us because, for whatever reason, we don't consider the actual game fun enough. The term "broken" itself (in reference to Pokemon) simply means that it breaks whatever desired aspects we wish to see in our ideal (most fun) metagame. (these aspects are found here)

To tie it back into the point that you were making with this, we can not ignore the negative effect an element like Keldeo may have on the metagame simply because it's not significantly worse than the next most negative element. In fact it is a red herring to accept the argument that Keldeo presence makes the metagame worse (in this case he is saying that Keldeo is breaking the desired variety of the metagame) and then dismiss it by pointing out that others do the same thing. We are here to talk about Keldeo, not about Terrakion, Cloyster, Breloom, Kyu-B, etc.

(Just going off on a tangent now) Also, if the desirable metagame would require us to chop all the way down to UU then that would be the best course of action. However, only a minority in the community feel such a drastic action is necessary to see all of our desired elements in our metagame which is why Terrakion and friends aren't actual considerations for suspect testing. Unless, of course, some drastic change in the community occurs that calls for these suspect tests. As aldaron (IIIRC, please correct me if I'm misquoting) has mentioned many times before that nothing isn't open to consideration and that he would even suspect test Kyurem-B if it would shut up those clamoring for its ban.

Lastly, don't take this post as Keldeo support. I just wanted to attack what appears to be a common misconception and point out the nuance between Keldeo not excessively reducing variety in the metagame (a very reasonable stance) and Keldeo being bad but so is a large portion of the metagame (a logical fallacy).

Eidt: Also, I really hate the "overcentralization" argument. You can have a metagame that is extremely overcentralized around a single element and it still have variety, balance, skill, and all the other desired aspects be present. It's a logical fallacy in that it makes the false assumption that a highly defining element always breaks the metagame in one of these ways.

 

[Pieces]

jpw234, overcentralization isn't a good argument when a pokemon has over a dozen viable checks on top of its outright counters.

Anyways, you missed the point of my post. Nowhere did I say any of the pokemon I listed were as good as Keldeo, but that they overcentralize the metagame just as much. For example, you need at least one of Gliscor/Landorus-T or a few broader checks such as Breloom/Scizor/Alakazam to deal with Terrakion. An even shorter list exists for Cloyster (you either have a counter and Cloyster is next to useless, or you don't and you get swept). And Salamence. And Volcarona. Even stuff like Tornadus, tiered in UU, can singlehandedly demolish any team without Jirachi/Metagross/Bronzong or several other lesser checks. I could keep naming pokemon, but I think you get the point: If you're running anything short of HO, you're going to have to carry one of a few answers to all those pokemon. That's just the way OU is.

There's no difference in the constraints that these offensive pokemon place on teambuilding except that Keldeo happens to be the best and easiest to use of the bunch. If you can use overcentralization to justify banning Keldeo, you can use it to justify banning the rest of the offensive meta.

 

[MikeDawg]

I don't but the "you have to prepare for everything" argument one bit.

I have never considered cloyster while teambuilding. I've never considered jirachi (offensive) while teambuilding. I've never considered heatran while teambuilding. I've never considered scizor while teambuilding. I've never considered tyrannitar while teambuilding. I've never considered latias while teambuilding.

And this is for one reason: I don't play stall, so I don't play reactively. My teams (as a team should) bases its members based around what it needs to facilitate whatever sweep/strategy I wish to execute, not to check x pokemon. Playing reactively with an offensive/balanced team is only asking to either be powered through by offensive pressure (not to mention never getting anything done).

There are two pokemon that I NEED to prepare for on every team, though: latios and keldeo. I've gotten away with having latios-weak teams, though, because of how debilitating that -2 spatt is, so I can frequently just set up after that, albeit at the loss of a member.

Like latios, if I don't have a keldeo counter (how many, exactly, fit succintly on offense?), I lose a pokemon every time it comes in. UNLIKE latios, though, Keldeo can continue spamming its attack. It doesn't need to be forced out. Alongside this, it is much harder to wear down due to lack of pursuit weakness, sr resistance, etc. To top it all off, IT'S STRONGER THAN LATIOS.

Keldeo has the same utility as latios, the only other poke I feel I MUST consider while teambuilding, without a number of absolutely debilitating consequences.

And no, you don't need celebi/gastro/jellicent on every team to tank rain hpumps. You need them on every team to tank KELDEO. Against politoed? A ton more can survive, and then OUTSPEED and either ko or force out. Plus, all of those 2 hkos keldeo can get in rain politoed doesn't even come close to meaning latis, any grass/water/dragon/etc type are checks/counters. That's not even to mention the lack of other coverage (hi ferrothorn)

The only comparable poke is starmie, and it falls flat as well. It is a ton weaker, can't really afford to carry specs nor scarf, and is rather frail. It has suberb coverage, yes, but unlike keldeo it can still be dealt with by blanket walls (ferro, jirachi depending on set, latis, blobs, etc)

Also keldeo is a mixed attacker with dual 130 base stats fully invested...

 

[Spinda]

I don't but the "you have to prepare for everything" argument one bit.

I have never considered cloyster while teambuilding. I've never considered jirachi (offensive) while teambuilding. I've never considered heatran while teambuilding. I've never considered scizor while teambuilding. I've never considered tyrannitar while teambuilding. I've never considered latias while teambuilding.

And this is for one reason: I don't play stall, so I don't play reactively. My teams (as a team should) bases its members based around what it needs to facilitate whatever sweep/strategy I wish to execute, not to check x pokemon. Playing reactively with an offensive/balanced team is only asking to either be powered through by offensive pressure (not to mention never getting anything done).

There are two pokemon that I NEED to prepare for on every team, though: latios and keldeo. I've gotten away with having latios-weak teams, though, because of how debilitating that -2 spatt is, so I can frequently just set up after that, albeit at the loss of a member.

I have never considered cloyster while teambuilding. I've never considered jirachi (offensive) while teambuilding. I've never considered heatran while teambuilding. I've never considered scizor while teambuilding. I've never considered tyrannitar while teambuilding. I've never considered latias while teambuilding, I've never considered Keldeo while teambuilding.

And this is for one reason: I don't play stall, so I don't play reactively. My teams (as a team should) bases its members based around what it needs to facilitate whatever sweep/strategy I wish to execute, not to check x pokemon. Playing reactively with an offensive/balanced team is only asking to either be powered through by offensive pressure (not to mention never getting anything done).

There are three pokemon that I NEED to prepare for on every team, though: Kyurem-B, Terrakion, and Latios.
...

( Offensive teams should still be able to CHECK pokemon, just not counter them, if you don't have a cloyster check, YOU WILL GET SWEPT BY IT, you just added cloyster checks despite not considering cloyster while teambuilding, similarly to how I do so for keldeo ( though I tend to use really shaky checks, it's all I really need for Keldeo ) )

I don't think your personal teambuilding issues should be relevant to this suspect test.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

And no, you don't need celebi/gastro/jellicent on every team to tank rain hpumps. You need them on every team to tank KELDEO. Against politoed? A ton more can survive, and then OUTSPEED and either ko or force out. Plus, all of those 2 hkos keldeo can get in rain politoed doesn't even come close to meaning latis, any grass/water/dragon/etc type are checks/counters. That's not even to mention the lack of other coverage (hi ferrothorn)

The only comparable poke is starmie, and it falls flat as well. It is a ton weaker, can't really afford to carry specs nor scarf, and is rather frail. It has suberb coverage, yes, but unlike keldeo it can still be dealt with by blanket walls (ferro, jirachi depending on set, latis, blobs, etc)

Also keldeo is a mixed attacker with dual 130 base stats fully invested...

I think you're under-estimating Politoed and Starmie to be honest. Specs Politoed hits stupidly hard, and you still need Celebi, Jellicent, and Gastrodon to tank these hits, that's why these Pokemon were seeing great usage before Keldeo was considered broken.

As for Starmie? It's Hydro Pump actually hits harder than Keldeo. Yeah.

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in rain: 269-317 (71.92 - 84.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in rain: 190-225 (50.8 - 60.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now I know I'm factoring in Pokemon switching into Starmie, but we are talking about checks / counters that are going to be switching into said threat so...

All the walls you listed can be 2HKOd by Starmie with the right move and Stealth Rocks. Now I know this does require nice conditions, but these conditions are only the same that the pro-ban side have been using for Keldeo, so why not?

 

[Spinda]

I think you're under-estimating Politoed and Starmie to be honest. Specs Politoed hits stupidly hard, and you still need Celebi, Jellicent, and Gastrodon to tank these hits, that's why these Pokemon were seeing great usage before Keldeo was considered broken.

As for Starmie? It's Hydro Pump actually hits harder than Keldeo. Yeah.

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in rain: 269-317 (71.92 - 84.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in rain: 190-225 (50.8 - 60.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now I know I'm factoring in Pokemon switching into Starmie, but we are talking about checks / counters that are going to be switching into said threat so...

All the walls you listed can be 2HKOd by Starmie with the right move and Stealth Rocks. Now I know this does require nice conditions, but these conditions are only the same that the pro-ban side have been using for Keldeo, so why not huh?

It's still stronger I believe, but it's rather unfair to compare LO starmie vs Ebelt/scarf keldeo

 

[ShootingStarmie]

It's still stronger I believe, but it's rather unfair to compare LO starmie vs Ebelt/scarf keldeo

It is? LO Starmie is the standard set, and I'm pretty sure Scarf / Expert Belt Keldeo sees more usage than Specs in Rain. In Sand I'm assuming Specs is more popular, but in Rain I'm pretty sure Scarf is the most common set.

 

[Spinda]

It is? LO Starmie is the standard set, and I'm pretty sure Scarf / Expert Belt sees more usage than Specs in Rain.

While those might be standard sets, that's just a metagame trend. Compare Specs to Specs, LO to LO, E-belt to E-belt, it's more about potential damage output than what's standard.
I don't need to point out the obvious advantages of scarf keldeo over LO starmie.
It's like comparing band dragonite to scarf kyurem-b ( if this was standard, which I said is a metagame trend so it could've been )

 

[ShootingStarmie]

While those might be standard sets, that's just a metagame trend. Compare Specs to Specs, LO to LO, E-belt to E-belt, it's more about potential damage output than what's standard.

Okay, even potential damage, Starmie is still overpowering Keldeo in damage output.

Hide

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in rain: 309-364 (82.62 - 97.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in rain: 283-334 (75.66 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now I know Specs Starmie is uncommon, but to say it's a ton weaker is a huge exaggeration, which was my original point.

 

[Pieces]

@Melee Mewtwo, in that case what's the difference between finding something broken and simply deciding you like a Keldeo-less meta better because it's an extremely easy and low-risk, high-reward pokemon to use? I personally find Breloom to be an awful pokemon with respect to what it does to the meta, but I don't think it's broken. Maybe I define broken much more narrowly than you, but to me something is broken if it is either overpowered or drastically lowers the skill involved in playing the game, not just because I don't like it.

@MikeDawg, you did account for all of those other threats simply by creating a fast, high-pressure team, so you don't have to deal with the specific pokemon after the fact. If you created a stall team, you wouldn't have to specifically account for Keldeo or Latios (a good stall team doesn't really care too much about them) but have to deal with a whole bunch of other nasty stuff.

 

[MikeDawg]

@Melee Mewtwo, in that case what's the difference between finding something broken and simply deciding you like a Keldeo-less meta better because it's an extremely easy and low-risk, high-reward pokemon to use? I personally find Breloom to be an awful pokemon with respect to what it does to the meta, but I don't think it's broken. Maybe I define broken much more narrowly than you, but to me something is broken if it is either overpowered or drastically lowers the skill involved in playing the game, not just because I don't like it.

@MikeDawg, you did account for all of those other threats simply by creating a fast, high-pressure team, so you don't have to deal with the specific pokemon after the fact. If you created a stall team, you wouldn't have to specifically account for Keldeo or Latios (a good stall team doesn't really care too much about them) but have to deal with a whole bunch of other nasty stuff.

I'm not talking about HO, though. I'm talking about a general offensive team, similar in playstyle to the current CCAT, for instance.

There's a great chance ill have a scizor or lando or something on my team to elimiate tenta/jelly/etc to aid a sweep.

I don't believe I've ever added anything except a lati or a jelli to a team except to account for keldeo

Disclaimer: i started playing in BW2 post torn-t. I don't know what rain was like pre-keldeo, all I know is that it is the only one I struggle with and it is the easiest one for me to sweep with

Also @ShootinStarmie, the issue with factoring in analytic is that it has a similar effect to draco meteor: after that initial hit, it now has to deal with a much weaker one.

And 2 keldeo hpumps are significantly stronger than 2 analytic starmie ones.

But starmie is also a very potent threat, particularly under rain. It just doesn't have the sheer ability to spam moves because if it doesn't 1hko (which it can struggle to do), it will generally be ko'd, or at least heavily crippled.

 

[MMII]

They are the same thing assuming Keldeo breaks the desired aspects through the way you described. Also, there's a difference between not liking a mon because you think the mechanics are shoddy (I'm assuming you hate Breloom for Spore) or because it's ugly, etc. and not liking a mon because it breaks what the community has decided is our desirable metagame.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I'm not talking about HO, though. I'm talking about a general offensive team, similar in playstyle to the current CCAT, for instance.

Also @ShootinStarmie, the issue with factoring in analytic is that it has a similar effect to draco meteor: after that initial hit, it now has to deal with a much weaker one.

And 2 keldeo hpumps are significantly stronger than 2 analytic starmie ones.

But starmie is also a very potent threat, particularly under rain. It just doesn't have the sheer ability to spam moves because if it doesn't 1hko (which it can struggle to do), it will generally be ko'd, or at least heavily crippled.

Fact is, Starmie doesn't need to Spam Hydro Pump twice, unlike Keldeo who's usually choice locked. Starmie has coverage to hit Celebi, Jellicent, and Latias, all of which Keldeo can't muscle through, unlike Starmie. Hydro Pump + coverage move 2HKOs basically everything. Now I think I'm going slightly off topic here, but I just don't like the fact that you stated Starmie is significantly weaker, because it isn't. Anyway, hopefully that's the end of the discussion about the matter on Starmie vs. Keldeo.

 

[soulgazer]

Now sorry if my post has nothing to do with the suspect test, but Starmie is only stronger than Keldeo if it use an attack on its opponent's switch or if Starmie is actually slower ( rare with that base 115 speed). Saying Starmie is always stronger than Keldeo is false as they won't always switch out.

 

[Goutland]

Tbh that's not a very difficult condition to fulfill (the analytic boost), as rain boosted hydro pumps hit stupidly hard even without the analytic boost just due to rain + STAB. Starmie's not always stronger, but it still has the ability to force switches with its fast and powerful water STAB just like Keldeo and has even better coverage to boot. The only thing it lacks is Keldeo's fighting STAB and higher SpA, which allow it to get past a few more pokes more easily. The difference in bulk and defensive typing is rather irrelevant, as these mons rarely ever switch in directly to counter things (unless it's bulky Starmie). The pursuit weakness might be its biggest hindrance, but not like Ttar can take two hydros anyway.

The main point that's been trying to get across with the Starmie calcs and comparisons is that with Keldeo gone, the next best hydro spammers will take its place and people will end up using the same rain checks they have in the past in the same way, leaving the metagame relatively unchanged. At least that's how I see it anyway.