You should have clarified the daily pain occurs briefly. When you said slight pain, I assumed you were describing the severity of the pain, similar to saying you would feel a slight (3/10) feeling of pain all day. I also interpreted that I would not be able to remedy or get used to this pain over time because otherwise there is not much thought into the question at all, since the daily pain would be the clear answer. But since apparently that is what you're asking, it's a dumb question.
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Specks versus torture
- Thread starter capefeather
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He never even mentioned pain, just discomfort.
Maybe it'd be better if a billion (better number to use than googleplex) people were non fatally stabbed with a knife instead of dust specs. Seems to me like that would be harder to choose.
I don't know what that has to do with anything, it's obviously not the same "moral conundrum" imposed by the OP. However, having already had my bones scraped (the worst pain imaginable), I'd take that again over the slight daily discomfort. Pain passes. Discomfort is when you've had a three week long cold, and you don't even remember what normal feels like. I wouldn't take a lifetime of that, even if it meant being bone scraped once a year.
Well my whole argument (not directed towards you, I quoted you because I agree with you) is that morals aside, specs is the better option. Also, too clarify, I don't mean continual discomfort, I mean something like a finger prick, once or twice a day. Anyways, chaos basically summed up the point I've ineffectually been trying to express in 2 sentences. The more concentrated the pain, the worse it is.
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
This is a really tough question to answer because you have to consider what the butterfly effect is
The sheer numbers of a googleplex amount of people would mean that there are probably so many different situations out there that making everybody blink because of a speck of dust means that you might be sending 1 million people to be tortured for 100 years. I mean with a googleplex amount of people there may be a culture out there that does that sort of thing.
On the other hand, the same could be said of the sentencing of one man to 50 years of torture. The butterflies in that may cause a googleplex amount of people to get specks of dust in their eyes all at the same time anyway, resulting in millions of people again being torutred for 100 years or more or even worse.
However, on the flip side of this argument it could be said that if you didnt send one googleplex people specks of dust in their eye there would be no butterfly resulting in the avoidance of heat death in the universe, and eventual godhood of the species that found it.
The same could be said of tortuing one man for 50 years: He could be the great ancestor of someone who made a radio broadcast that inspired an advance species to create a way to avoid heat death in the universe, and then gain eventual godhood for themselves.
Its rediculous, but its not if you consider that basically either choice is an affront to god. Any choice you make here or now or forever could prevent god from happening.
The sheer numbers of a googleplex amount of people would mean that there are probably so many different situations out there that making everybody blink because of a speck of dust means that you might be sending 1 million people to be tortured for 100 years. I mean with a googleplex amount of people there may be a culture out there that does that sort of thing.
On the other hand, the same could be said of the sentencing of one man to 50 years of torture. The butterflies in that may cause a googleplex amount of people to get specks of dust in their eyes all at the same time anyway, resulting in millions of people again being torutred for 100 years or more or even worse.
However, on the flip side of this argument it could be said that if you didnt send one googleplex people specks of dust in their eye there would be no butterfly resulting in the avoidance of heat death in the universe, and eventual godhood of the species that found it.
The same could be said of tortuing one man for 50 years: He could be the great ancestor of someone who made a radio broadcast that inspired an advance species to create a way to avoid heat death in the universe, and then gain eventual godhood for themselves.
Its rediculous, but its not if you consider that basically either choice is an affront to god. Any choice you make here or now or forever could prevent god from happening.
Another day of the same. I awake to the same stinging pain in my eyes. It clears quickly, as usual. But the memory persists. That stinging feeling every morning for the past twenty years. And to think it's all one man's fault? For choosing the "humane" option? The world is going black. Every morning as we wake up, we are subjected to the same speck. And we are all slowly being driven to the brink. At first, it seemed meaningless. We'll get over it, we said. Some of us did. Some of tried. Some of us didn't get over it. The ones who got over it... are no longer here.
The speck haunts us to this very day. Who is the man responsible for this? Why could he not bring himself to allow the torture of one man? Why could he not see that by ruining one man, he would save so many others from the slow, creeping insanity we are all feeling. His "kindness" has come to naught. People die daily on the streets, victims to their own creeping mortality driven insane by the daily pain. Some are lucky, and simply collapse and enter the next world. Some are not, and they are found self-mutilated and hanging from their own ceilings.
He will pay in the same way we have paid.
He will experience all of our pain at once in the same way his victim would have paid, had he chosen the right path.
He will suffer as we have suffered.
The specks will exact their toll on this foolish man.
As blood of the innocent lines our faces and our own bloodlust lines our hearts, we assemble in the heart of the city. Today we take our final victim! The one man who started it all! The fury of a googolplex souls burns brightly in the eyes of the few who are left. We gather our torches, gather our blades, our guns, and every horrible device we own. We make the slow trip to the home of the man who has caused this. Marching up the incline, we breathe as one, our thoughts connected, streaming into the sole aim of the slow death of this terror. There it is, someone shouts! A thousand minds boil over at once as we storm the building. We break down doors, we bash through walls, we leave no stone unturned. We find nothing. Until one man finds the hidden door. A collective wail rises from our crowd. We have finally found the man we seek. As we bash down his last line of defense, he backs into a corner. A once proud man, now fallen. Years of worry and horror line his face. He almost looks forgiveable.
We cannot forgive him for this crime.
Our wrath explodes, and in moments we are all around him, jabbing him with knives, burning his skin, pouring sand in his eyes. We do not kill him. His home is now his prison. He will be subject to the pain we all felt for the rest of his pathetic existence. His residence will go down in history for the crime he committed and how his crime came full circle.
Some of us are left inside to continue his torture, but the rest of us exit the house. A wild cheer rises from the crowd, like a gathering of slaves who are freed all at once. We do not know if the pain we felt will continue or not. We do know, though, that our broiling hearts are at ease at last. We depart to our homes, knowing that HIS price has been paid.
The speck haunts us to this very day. Who is the man responsible for this? Why could he not bring himself to allow the torture of one man? Why could he not see that by ruining one man, he would save so many others from the slow, creeping insanity we are all feeling. His "kindness" has come to naught. People die daily on the streets, victims to their own creeping mortality driven insane by the daily pain. Some are lucky, and simply collapse and enter the next world. Some are not, and they are found self-mutilated and hanging from their own ceilings.
He will pay in the same way we have paid.
He will experience all of our pain at once in the same way his victim would have paid, had he chosen the right path.
He will suffer as we have suffered.
The specks will exact their toll on this foolish man.
As blood of the innocent lines our faces and our own bloodlust lines our hearts, we assemble in the heart of the city. Today we take our final victim! The one man who started it all! The fury of a googolplex souls burns brightly in the eyes of the few who are left. We gather our torches, gather our blades, our guns, and every horrible device we own. We make the slow trip to the home of the man who has caused this. Marching up the incline, we breathe as one, our thoughts connected, streaming into the sole aim of the slow death of this terror. There it is, someone shouts! A thousand minds boil over at once as we storm the building. We break down doors, we bash through walls, we leave no stone unturned. We find nothing. Until one man finds the hidden door. A collective wail rises from our crowd. We have finally found the man we seek. As we bash down his last line of defense, he backs into a corner. A once proud man, now fallen. Years of worry and horror line his face. He almost looks forgiveable.
We cannot forgive him for this crime.
Our wrath explodes, and in moments we are all around him, jabbing him with knives, burning his skin, pouring sand in his eyes. We do not kill him. His home is now his prison. He will be subject to the pain we all felt for the rest of his pathetic existence. His residence will go down in history for the crime he committed and how his crime came full circle.
Some of us are left inside to continue his torture, but the rest of us exit the house. A wild cheer rises from the crowd, like a gathering of slaves who are freed all at once. We do not know if the pain we felt will continue or not. We do know, though, that our broiling hearts are at ease at last. We depart to our homes, knowing that HIS price has been paid.
if you take the utilitarian approach torturing the dude is a clear choice, but utilitarianism sucks assholes.
This is a lot easier for me to conceptualize than specks, I wear contacts and sometimes i feel shit in my eyes, is that the same thing as specks? Or is something that is supposed to be painful and take like 30 seconds to get out my eye?
If it was pin pricks for all or torture for one, I'd probably choose pin pricks for all. The potential fallout is what? Zero lasting harm pretty much unless they get infected by bacteria on the pin pricks or some random variable that I haven't considered. I feel like the people saying 'I'd pick torture' are trying to be edgy or something. Or just holding up some folklore wisdom as though it's relevant such as in:
Utilitarianism is really varied, there is no agreed upon calculus for how you decide what constitutes the best possible case of affairs. Some variants of utilitarianism would say that torture is sossososososososossooso bad^nth that a short finite pain enacted on everyone all taken together wouldn't even come close to the badness of torture. It would be like comparing a collection of finite constants to a single infinite quantity, torture could be regarded as 'next-level' evil even when done to just one person. Utilitarianism leaves a lot to the agent in deciding how to quantify the pro's and con's of choices.
I think it is really obvious to pick extremely minute harm to all vs torture, as to me torturing someone for 50 yrs is worse than just killing someone, and I would not pick one person to die over a trivial (key word) pain for all.
VKCA
(Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)
"There's fewer than infinity snow flakes in an avalanche."?
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Except that isn't the scenario.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
i feel like a couple people are derailing the discussion again so i'll quote myself
so when Myzozoa points out that pin pricks leave zero lasting harm unless "some random variable", disregard any and all random variables you had in mind, the point of the thought experiment is "is it better for an extremely large number of beings to suffer a minimal discomfort for a short period of time, or for an extremely small number of beings to suffer near-maximum discomfort for a very long period of time?". it's not supposed to be some stupid thing like "lol you picked the specks, but i didn't tell you that the specks will cause 1 million people to crash their cars and die!" the thought experiment is not taking into account scenarios that could come about as a result of the specks, just the specks themselves, for what they're worth.
yeah that's very true and also not at all pertinent to this thread
This question is awful and leads to superficial discussion. It is asking you to compare two situations that no one can relate to.
No one here has been a torture victim for 50 years.
No one can imagine a googleplex people.
Let's simplify it so that we can relate to at least one of the consequences. Consider the choice of getting a spec of dust in your eye or a 1/googleplex chance to face torture for 50 years.
Consider that the likelyhood of winning the lottery, 1 billion times, every second, for the age of the universe, is far far superior to 1/googleplex.
I would consider the speck of dust somewhat irritating. I consider the lottery insignificant. Therefore I would take my chances with the lottery. Not really important, the consequences are completely insignificant.
Why then is there any discussion? Because the way the question is worded ensures that someone will get tortured in one of the two scenarios. Awful, isn't it?
If 1 googleplex people were given the choice I specified above, I would expect everyone to chose the lottery if they considered the odds. The expected number of people tortured would be 1. But it wouldn't be bad. They brought it on themselves.
I have no problem bringing the risk of torture on myself. Are you specks people terrified of the odds or terrified about harming someone else?
No one here has been a torture victim for 50 years.
No one can imagine a googleplex people.
Let's simplify it so that we can relate to at least one of the consequences. Consider the choice of getting a spec of dust in your eye or a 1/googleplex chance to face torture for 50 years.
Consider that the likelyhood of winning the lottery, 1 billion times, every second, for the age of the universe, is far far superior to 1/googleplex.
I would consider the speck of dust somewhat irritating. I consider the lottery insignificant. Therefore I would take my chances with the lottery. Not really important, the consequences are completely insignificant.
Why then is there any discussion? Because the way the question is worded ensures that someone will get tortured in one of the two scenarios. Awful, isn't it?
If 1 googleplex people were given the choice I specified above, I would expect everyone to chose the lottery if they considered the odds. The expected number of people tortured would be 1. But it wouldn't be bad. They brought it on themselves.
I have no problem bringing the risk of torture on myself. Are you specks people terrified of the odds or terrified about harming someone else?
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http://www.stanford.edu/~nitsche/cgi-bin/numbers.pl?googolplex - one googloplex, the page is still loading after 10 minutes for me
stop submitting to your scope insensitivity, mortals
also, I find it funny that people are saying that future consequences should not be part of the discussion (which I agree with, btw), but then flip-flop and argue that torture fucks up a person for life. Either future consequences are, or are not, a relevant part of the argument. You can't make it true for one side and not the other, because thats giving unfair consideration to one side of the argument.
stop submitting to your scope insensitivity, mortals
also, I find it funny that people are saying that future consequences should not be part of the discussion (which I agree with, btw), but then flip-flop and argue that torture fucks up a person for life. Either future consequences are, or are not, a relevant part of the argument. You can't make it true for one side and not the other, because thats giving unfair consideration to one side of the argument.
50 years of torture fucks up 50 years of a persons life (almost 75% of the average life expectancy), how is that even remotely hard to grasp?
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Its not. But I'f we're going to be adding that into the considerations, then we should also add in the idea that a googolplex of dust specks is going to kill a lot of people in car crashes. They're both subsequent events that occur outside the scope of the question.
edit- also, 30 minutes, still loading the googloplex
That's not a subsequent event, that's the event. That's the exact event. Again, how is that even remotely hard to grasp?
No one is talking about after effects, it's hard to even imagine after effects that are worse than being tortured for 50 years in the same way that it's hard to imagine a googolplex.
The after effect is that they're fucked up for the rest of their life. A human life span is not 50 years.
And trillions of dead people is a much worse after-effect than one insane person.
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