Other Return of the Son of Paraflinch!

[Quixim]

Paraflinching and its red-headed stepchild Parafusion have never made big homes in the OU bracket, as Jirachi (the prime candidate for it) has better things to do, and Togekiss (the other big user) is UU. Parafusion, as used by Liepard for example, is also less used in the BW metagame to the best of my knowledge, due to the highspeed offensive metagame.

However, there's a few mechanics changes that could change the usage rate of Paraflinching/fusion.

The Good
- Togekiss, one of the premier Parafusion users, with its good special defence, access to thunder wave, body slam, air cutter, and serene grace, now gained the fairy type, rendering it immune to dragon, doubly resistant to fighting and bug, and strong against dark. This added defensive bulk, mixing with its good special bulk means that with its stats alone it could make a case for OU, as it's immune to the STAB moves of Garchomp, Flygon, and Zygarde. It can screen, but with its abilities, a paraflinch set is the most viable.

- Klefki, with its great typing, has the perfect moveset to swagger, paralyze, put up subs, and use foul play to make your life hell. It's also blessed with Prankster, making it sure to get a status on you before you have a chance to act.

- Pretty much every pokemon with Own Tempo or Inner Focus has a better ability that it would rather be using.

The Bad
-Electric pokemon are now fully immune to paralyze, and if you're using thunder wave, ground pokemon also have an immunity, and without the drop in speed, Togekiss, the prime paraflincher, isn't going to be fast enough to set up any flinches.

The Ugly
Priority moves are more prevalent than ever - Pokes with prankster aren't going to go away, and with Talonflame around using Brave Bird, even if you get of a paralyze, you can't guarantee the chance to go first to set up that crucial flinch chance.

As for discussion questions: What do you think about paraflinch? Is it a tactic you can see being used? Is it something you feel like you should prepared to deal with?

 

[MudcrabDL]

I've been playing with a Parafusion Klefki, which at its absolute worst, can put a stop to a setup sweeper with Thunder Wave before getting KOed, or at best, can annoy the opponent so much that they just tap out.

As a counterpoint to your sidenote(EDIT: Which doesn't exist anymore, which makes this kind of a moot point): While people can attempt to remove random chance from the game, fundamentally, it is balanced using chance mechanisms, so it's a bit hard to remove entirely. More powerful moves have lower accuracy to compensate, meaning you can either OHKO something or do nothing at all; crucially affecting the tide of battle. Parafusion is basically just flipping a bunch of coins until they show up in your favor, yes, but setting it up so the dice roll in your favor takes skill; say, hitting someone with a Swagger on the switch, leaving you to either Substitute up and hope for confusion to kick in, or chuck on Thunder Wave to add an extra 25% chance to not do anything (plus the ever-reliable speed drop). Sometimes you win, which can be frustrating for the other person, sometimes they push through both statuses and OHKO you. Either way, it's part of the game.

That said, I'm in the camp of people who thinks Double Team would be balanced if people seriously considered moves that never miss like Swift and Shock Wave. If the metagame didn't restrict people from using evasion as a strategy, the metagame would evolve to accomodate powerful users of that strategy, and would develop counters. Not to mention Haze has always been an option.

 

[RowDog]

Paraflinch/fusion is a very annoying strategy, and I have seen the odd Meowstic with Prankster on Pokemon Showdown using Parafusion with substitute aswell. It is very frustrating and surprisingly effective, but in the end, it is all very much chance based.

As for the comparison between Paraflinch/fusion and evasion, I can see why definitely why evasion is more of a threat.
1. All you need is one move slot to boost up your evasion to throw the chances in you favour, for paraflinch/fusion to work more effecively you will need to be able to do it effectively and swing the chances more in your favour.
2. Double team and minimise are only really stoppable by taunt and haze. Paralysis can now be walled by all electric types (as already stated) and thunder wave doesn't effect ground types, which is covered by a lot more Pokemon.
3. Although I would like to see perfect (cannot miss) accuracy moves in the game, unfortunately there are not that many of them out there and they aren't very strong :/
4. Confusion vanishes upon switching out which is in the opponents control, evasion vanishes when you choose to switch out with the exception of specific movese (Whirlwind, Roar)
5. Flinch is stopped by priority or faster Pokemon, evasion can just be used after.
So I definitely say that evasion is much more potent than Paraflinch/fusion methods and is why it is banned over this strategy.

Perhaps there is a place now for Sand Veil and Snow Cloak again though after the weather nerf because it is only temporary evasion?

Regardless of all that this is a definite strategy, and can/does work, but it is a bit lucky and can be countered. But when it isn't countered it can be hell and rather effective.

Not sure about a place in OU though, as most of the Pokemon who use the strategy do it because if it doesn't work they would get OHKOed and so perhaps a bit too gimmicky for OU play, but still packs potential.

 

[Martingale]

That said, I'm in the camp of people who thinks Double Team would be balanced if people seriously considered moves that never miss like Swift and Shock Wave. If the metagame didn't restrict people from using evasion as a strategy, the metagame would evolve to accomodate powerful users of that strategy, and would develop counters. Not to mention Haze has always been an option.

Not to mention the abilities Unaware and Keen Eye, which would stop any evasive user cold. Also, Sweet Scent sharply lowers evasion, and now that Roar and Whirlwind don't depend on accuracy they can phase out an evasive for no bother. It's actually quite easy to beat. But the only reason people will still whine about it is that "omg the sure hit moves r too week!". At the very least I'd like to see evasion abilities like Sand Veil and Snow Cloak unbanned, due to the weather nerf.

 

[baddjordan]

so compensating hax is to put more hax into the game. can we unban ohko moves too?

 

[RowDog]

Not to mention the abilities Unaware and Keen Eye, which would stop any evasive user cold. Also, Sweet Scent sharply lowers evasion, and now that Roar and Whirlwind don't depend on accuracy they can phase out an evasive for no bother. It's actually quite easy to beat. But the only reason people will still whine about it is that "omg the sure hit moves r too week!". At the very least I'd like to see evasion abilities like Sand Veil and Snow Cloak unbanned, due to the weather nerf.

I'd have to agree with you on the last point of evasion abilities coming back into the game, especially due to the weather nerf. Stacked evasion is just a bit ridiculous and really can be a hassle to have to find a solution to it, especially late game when your counter has fainted.

 

[ginganinja]

Keep the discussion on topic (ie parafusion) and NOT a discussion as to whether you would unban Evasion. It is irrelvent to the discussion, and always ends in a shitstorm / flame war so please do everyone a favour and stick to discussing the OP tyvm.

 

[RowDog]

Keep the discussion on topic (ie parafusion) and NOT a discussion as to whether you would unban Evasion. It is irrelvent to the discussion, and always ends in a shitstorm / flame war so please do everyone a favour and stick to discussing the OP tyvm.

Although they kind of tie into each other on some levels, you are right. Back on topic.

As for the best users out there that I have seen so far are:
For Parafusion
- Prankster Klefki
- Prankster Liepard
- Prankster (male) meowstic
All of which have Swagger, Thunder Wave and Substitute and some other reliable damage move not reliable on a stat.
Out of these Klefki is probably the best thanks to its typing and better defences so that it has the potential to take a hit which slips through.

For Paraflinch
- Serene Grace Jirachi
- Serene Grace Togekiss

So basically these abilities are kind of needed for either of them to work really well and seems to be limited to these abilities, can't think of any others at the moment.

They're probably some of the best options for Liepard, Meowstic and Togekiss (maybe, this gen may have changed that though for Toge), but Jirachi and Klefki have other options.

Once again, not sure how competitive this will be.

 

[Aasgier]

Not to mention the abilities Unaware and Keen Eye, which would stop any evasive user cold. Also, Sweet Scent sharply lowers evasion, and now that Roar and Whirlwind don't depend on accuracy they can phase out an evasive for no bother. It's actually quite easy to beat. But the only reason people will still whine about it is that "omg the sure hit moves r too week!". At the very least I'd like to see evasion abilities like Sand Veil and Snow Cloak unbanned, due to the weather nerf.

Roar and Whirlwind also stop Evasion cold now, as they now never miss as well.

I found Parafusion very annoying to deal with, and it is the sole reason I am having fun with a Lum Berry Golem.

 

[wiithepeople]

Two words: Ground types.

 

[Kejmur]

Two words: Ground types.

This is why at least in case of Togekiss (or Jirachi and LOL Dunsparce) this generation it's better to use Body Slam. With 60% chance to paralyze target on switch, it's actually good enough chance to rely on this move. It also screw up all those Ground and Electric types which are confident switching on those paraflincher and stall them out anyway. Yeah, it's not 100% chance like in case of T-Wave, but I still say it's totally worth it.

 

[TaiCrunch]

Two words: Ground types.

Four more words: Serene Grace Body Slam.

 

[Martingale]

Four more words: Serene Grace Body Slam.

Two words: Limber Stunfisk. Double paralysis immunity plus ground for T-Wave immunity.

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

Two words: Limber Stunfisk. Double paralysis immunity plus ground for T-Wave immunity.

That's like noticing you have an Earthquake weakness and putting an Air Balloon Rotom-Fan on your team.

 

[termi]

Paraflinch/parafusion is one of the lamest "strategies" ever and I am very glad that Rotom-W stops paraflinch shenanigans cold (as if there weren't already enough reasons to use him to begin with). Parafusion Klefki is just a shiny new toy and it's honestly not much better than Liepard all the way down in NU, using it makes you a bad player tbh.

That said, I'm in the camp of people who thinks Double Team would be balanced if people seriously considered moves that never miss like Swift and Shock Wave. If the metagame didn't restrict people from using evasion as a strategy, the metagame would evolve to accomodate powerful users of that strategy, and would develop counters. Not to mention Haze has always been an option.

You do realize that saying this invalidates everything you've said before and anything you will say after this, right? Evasion moves aren't favorable at all and you shouldn't bring them up because 9/10 players hate the living hell out of it (for good reasons, I might add). But regardless, not going to write down a wall of text as to why evasion moves are awful because this isn't the appropriate topic, it's been said countless times before and to be frank I'm a lazy ass.

 

[sun_beak]

Hide

Personally, I prefer paraflinching to parafusion because paraflinching doesn't involve raising your opponent's ATK stat (which can be risky). The users of the parafusion combination are also somewhat frail, especially compared to Togekiss and Jirachi. I don't really care for either setup in Gen VI, however, because Electric-types can't be paralyzed anymore.

Parafusion / paraflinch is just one of the better shitty gimmicks that people use on serious teams. But it's still a shitty gimmick.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I think paraflinch has been, and always will be, a valid strategy on pokemon who can pull it off. Whenever you have over a 50% chance to cause flinch, AND paralysis, thats not playing chance, thats playing your opponent for a sucker. The new electric immunity and new priority users do make these sets a little circumstantial, but they'll still be pretty effective as electric types aren't the most common types in OU (might change with galvantula, ampharos, and heliolisk get some usage, but not significantly) and its not like electric types didn't counter Togekiss already (I never really used it on Jirachi personally).

ALL that being said. I think with Togekiss's new type, a less gimmicky set such as his physically bulky nasty plot set will be a lot more effective for OU.

 

[Fennekin]

Raikou. The bane of ParaFlinch.
Can't be para'd, resists all common flinchers (except Zen Headbutt Jirachi but noone ever uses that), and behind a sub no longer cares about Swagger and the like.
Not only that, but after one or two CMs it can easily handle pretty much every paraflincher in the game, especially Togekiss.

Just my 2 cents in case anyone's worried about this whole thing.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Raikou. The bane of ParaFlinch.
Can't be para'd, resists all common flinchers (except Zen Headbutt Jirachi but noone ever uses that), and behind a sub no longer cares about Swagger and the like.
Not only that, but after one or two CMs it can easily handle pretty much every paraflincher in the game, especially Togekiss.

Just my 2 cents in case anyone's worried about this whole thing.

Since Raikou is almost totally outclassed by Jolteon, I don't think he'll be rising to OU just to counter paraflinchers. Personally I see Jolteon sweeper/revenge killer sets becoming more of a thing

 

[Fennekin]

Jolteon, Mega Manectric, and even Heliolisk could potentially outclass Raikou. However, they all lack something Raikou has: special tankyness.
Not trying to glorify the tiger, but I really think it could actually become a solid choice for Gen 6 (let's not mention tiers in this whole thing, though).

 

[OverMind]

Mega Khan could really do nicely here, as she has access to a variety of paralysis and flinch moves, (with stab options), and from her parental bond, she has a decent but not-quite-as-good-as-serene-grace boost to effect chances (refresher if one does not remember: if the secondary effect chance is p (for p: 0<p<1), then the chance of having the effect occur at least once in the two hits is 1-(1-p)^2 = 1-1-p*p+2*p = 2*p-p^2 = p*(2-p). for example, body slam, p=.3, with parental bond yields p' = .3 * (2 - .3) = .3 * 1.7 = .51, where serene grace would boost it to .6.

However, there are some advantages Megakhan has over Togekiss
1. She hits for more damage per attack, all else being equal, due to parental bond and 5 more base attack.
2. She *can* break subs and still damage (and have some hax chance)
3. She has more physical bulk (100 versus 95) although less special (100 versus 115)
3. More HP (105 versus 85)
4. Megakhan can get recovery (drain punch, from gen v Move tutor) (so can't be taunted, but more situational to actually get decent healing)
5. not weak to stealth rock

 

[Flamebot]

This is why at least in case of Togekiss (or Jirachi and LOL Dunsparce) this generation it's better to use Body Slam. With 60% chance to paralyze target on switch, it's actually good enough chance to rely on this move. It also screw up all those Ground and Electric types which are confident switching on those paraflincher and stall them out anyway. Yeah, it's not 100% chance like in case of T-Wave, but I still say it's totally worth it.

I agree, BodySlam is worth it. I believe Rock slide causes flinch and Rock clim can cause confussion, and many more moves can cause these effects with a chance. So, is there a need for Paraflinch when we have all these moves that can do the same thing? The awnser is no, and these moves are not affected by taunt, whie if you have a paraflincher it's screwed if someone uses taunt. I just wanted to add my opion on this.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Mega Khan could really do nicely here, as she has access to a variety of paralysis and flinch moves, (with stab options), and from her parental bond, she has a decent but not-quite-as-good-as-serene-grace boost to effect chances (refresher if one does not remember: if the secondary effect chance is p (for p: 0<p<1), then the chance of having the effect occur at least once in the two hits is 1-(1-p)^2 = 1-1-p*p+2*p = 2*p-p^2 = p*(2-p). for example, body slam, p=.3, with parental bond yields p' = .3 * (2 - .3) = .3 * 1.7 = .51, where serene grace would boost it to .6.

However, there are some advantages Megakhan has over Togekiss
1. She hits for more damage per attack, all else being equal, due to parental bond and 5 more base attack.
2. She *can* break subs and still damage (and have some hax chance)
3. She has more physical bulk (100 versus 95) although less special (100 versus 115)
3. More HP (105 versus 85)
4. Megakhan can get recovery (drain punch, from gen v Move tutor) (so can't be taunted, but more situational to actually get decent healing)
5. not weak to stealth rock

A stomping Megakhan is a frightening image indeed. She's also got access to rock slide and sucker punch (no more priority threats) meaning she's more versatile than Togekiss

 

[farranpoison]

It'd be funny if people got so annoyed with Paraflinch that Lum berry or Own Tempo mons become more popular.

 

[Martingale]

It'd be funny if people got so annoyed with Paraflinch that Lum berry or Own Tempo mons become more popular.

Lickilicky became common in NU thanks to SwagPard.