[QC READY 2/3] Togekiss

[Deoxymoron]

And the difference is? I want you to tell me the reason why you slashed Nasty Plot first only on the first set and justifying it by telling me that you named the first set 'Nasty Plot'' doesn't help at all.

The first set is primarily offensive and the second is primarily defensive. That's the reason the first set has the option of running Life Orb and the second one doesn't. It's not at all important to me though, so I'll change it.

 

[alexwolf]

Why is the first set more suited to going offensive and the second defensive though? You don't explain this anywhere. That's what i want you to explain.

 

[Deoxymoron]

Why is the first set more suited to going offensive and the second defensive though? You don't explain this anywhere. That's what i want you to explain.

1. The first set has the option of running Life Orb
2. The second set does not because is primarily a check for physical Dragon-types, so it cares more about longevity
3. Because it's a check for physical Dragon-types, the second set has Dazzling Gleam as a mandatory attack, whereas the first set is more open to coverage moves.

 

[steviestar]

The second set has too many EVs listed (512)

 

[alexwolf]

1. The first set has the option of running Life Orb
2. The second set does not because is primarily a check for physical Dragon-types, so it cares more about longevity
3. Because it's a check for physical Dragon-types, the second set has Dazzling Gleam as a mandatory attack, whereas the first set is more open to coverage moves.

Thx, that's what i wanted to hear!

Will stamp this sometime today...

 

[Deoxymoron]

The second set has too many EVs listed (512)

fixed.

Thx, that's what i wanted to hear!

Will stamp this sometime today...

Is this gonna happen soon?

 

[ginganinja]

Slash leftovers first over Life Orb on the first set. IDC so much on the third set, since your running full SpA so can get better use out of it, but running Life Orb on a set with such defensive EVs looks sub optimal, and I would prefer Leftovers getting primary slash.

 

[alexwolf]

Agreeing with gingainja. Actually, Togekiss can't OHKO Mega Gengar with +2 LO Air Slash even after SR so it really seems to have no use. Just mention LO in AC on the first set and make the EV spread the same as the one on the second set.

Also you keep mentioning this:

Pursuit trappers and Ground-types are useful for taking out Togekiss's checks and counters

But which Ghost-types is Togekiss threatened by that can be Pursuit trapped? Aegislash maybe if you don't have Fire Blast but it can't be trapped or is nearly impossible to, due to King's Shield. Then there is Mega Gengar, which, again is very hard to actually Pursuit kill, as its Focus Blast 2HKOes even SpD Tyranitar. I really think there are better ways to support Togekiss than this so i would probably remove Pursuit as a means of supporting Togekiss.

 

[Deoxymoron]

Agreeing with gingainja. Actually, Togekiss can't OHKO Mega Gengar with +2 LO Air Slash even after SR so it really seems to have no use. Just mention LO in AC on the first set and make the EV spread the same as the one on the second set.

Also you keep mentioning this:

But which Ghost-types is Togekiss threatened by that can be Pursuit trapped? Aegislash maybe if you don't have Fire Blast but it can't be trapped or is nearly impossible to, due to King's Shield. Then there is Mega Gengar, which, again is very hard to actually Pursuit kill, as its Focus Blast 2HKOes even SpD Tyranitar. I really think there are better ways to support Togekiss than this so i would probably remove Pursuit as a means of supporting Togekiss.

+2 20 SpA Life Orb Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 261-308 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Still, I'll put it as the second slash.

You're right, I'll take out Pursuit trapping. Is that everything?

 

[alexwolf]

Hmm you are right, i don't know what i did wrong with my calcs. Anyway, the scenario is still very specialized and if it's the only reason to use Life Orb it doesn't warrant a slash. Just an AC mention.

 

[Deoxymoron]

Hmm you are right, i don't know what i did wrong with my calcs. Anyway, the scenario is still very specialized and if it's the only reason to use Life Orb it doesn't warrant a slash. Just an AC mention.

Done. Is that everything?

 

[alexwolf]

Good teammates include pokemon like Metagross and Mega Heracross who can use the paralysis to sweep

Remove Metagross and mention a more relevant powerhouse (Metagross is not even one).

Anything that can take on Electric-types is useful, most notably Dugtrio due to Arena Trap

Dugtrio is fucked up by the most common user of Electric-moves, Rotom-W. Yeah, it can trap and KO Magnezone but still i would prefer that you mention an actually good check to Electric-types, such as Goodra.

On the third set, remove Aura Sphere as a slash. I realized it is only useful for Tyranitar, which already takes decent damage from Dazzling Glean and can't do much with Pursuit anyway. However, going without a Fire move and being walled by Aegislash is horrible. Just mention it in AC. Also, slash Flamethrower after Fire Blast.

Add Rotom-W as a counter. Takes everything you have relatively easy, can paralyze back, is immune to Thunder Wave, and has Volt Switch to dent you and bring in something else to finish you off.

Also, add Aegislash. It can switch into anything other than Fire Blast / Flamethrower and answer back with a super effective Iron Head, if not outright OHKO. Fire Blast from defensive sets can't even 2HKO or OHKO at +2.

Finally, with LO no longer slashed on the first set, make the EV spread of this set identical to this of the second set.

 

[nyczxjay]

Should Togekiss aim to hit 209 speed (52 EVs) to outspeed uninvested Rotom-W so that it can Roost before Rotom-W can hit it super effectively with Volt Switch/Thunderbolt? I can see Rotom-W causing some issues for Togekiss.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, good idea. You can also Air Slash flinch kill it with a couple of NP boosts.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

WORDS WORDS WORDS:

1. The first two sets are messy as fuck. It looks like two defensive kinda-attacking sets, and the first set seems supremely incoherent. It's a... Nasty Plot set? But it has Thunder Wave slashed with Nasty Plot, and it has a ton of defensive EVs, so is it a wall or a boosting set? Why do the sets need to be separate, it's basically the same moves but one with physical EVs and one with special EVs. I think that if the sets are going to be defensive in nature, it needs to be more obvious, and a boosting attack shouldn't be in the first slot. Maybe separate out defensive and offensive? There's probably a more efficient spread for a boosting sweeper.
2. Emphasize the fact that it completely dunks on Dragons a bit more. For the most part, none of them can do anything to it outside of running Stone Edge, which is always a shaky proposition and also a huge moveslot sink.
3. Don't emphasize "makes it hard to sweep" but mention that 80 speed is quite mediocre. Togekiss isn't a sweeper in this metagame.
4. Aura Sphere is mediocre at best, got a BP nerf and Togekiss can use STAB Dazzling Gleam to hit Tyranitar. Only really needs three moves: Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam, Fire Blast. Is Fire Blast really necessary or can Flamethrower do the same job?

 

[Deoxymoron]

Remove Metagross and mention a more relevant powerhouse (Metagross is not even one).

Dugtrio is fucked up by the most common user of Electric-moves, Rotom-W. Yeah, it can trap and KO Magnezone but still i would prefer that you mention an actually good check to Electric-types, such as Goodra.

On the third set, remove Aura Sphere as a slash. I realized it is only useful for Tyranitar, which already takes decent damage from Dazzling Glean and can't do much with Pursuit anyway. However, going without a Fire move and being walled by Aegislash is horrible. Just mention it in AC. Also, slash Flamethrower after Fire Blast.

Add Rotom-W as a counter. Takes everything you have relatively easy, can paralyze back, is immune to Thunder Wave, and has Volt Switch to dent you and bring in something else to finish you off.

Also, add Aegislash. It can switch into anything other than Fire Blast / Flamethrower and answer back with a super effective Iron Head, if not outright OHKO. Fire Blast from defensive sets can't even 2HKO or OHKO at +2.

Finally, with LO no longer slashed on the first set, make the EV spread of this set identical to this of the second set.

I did all of these but the last one. Everyone has been criticizing me for doing things suggested by other people. The first set was offensive Nasty Plot, someone told me to make it bulky Nasty Plot, so I did. then someone comes along and tells me to add in support options because obviously with those EVs it must be a special wall, right? And now you're saying that I should change the defensive EVs entirely, ignore Togekiss's great special bulk, and make it practically a clone of the second set? I get it, Togekiss is a great counter to physical dragon-types, but that is not its deciding factor. It's good at other things, too.

WORDS WORDS WORDS:

1. The first two sets are messy as fuck. It looks like two defensive kinda-attacking sets, and the first set seems supremely incoherent. It's a... Nasty Plot set? But it has Thunder Wave slashed with Nasty Plot, and it has a ton of defensive EVs, so is it a wall or a boosting set? Why do the sets need to be separate, it's basically the same moves but one with physical EVs and one with special EVs. I think that if the sets are going to be defensive in nature, it needs to be more obvious, and a boosting attack shouldn't be in the first slot. Maybe separate out defensive and offensive? There's probably a more efficient spread for a boosting sweeper.
2. Emphasize the fact that it completely dunks on Dragons a bit more. For the most part, none of them can do anything to it outside of running Stone Edge, which is always a shaky proposition and also a huge moveslot sink.
3. Don't emphasize "makes it hard to sweep" but mention that 80 speed is quite mediocre. Togekiss isn't a sweeper in this metagame.
4. Aura Sphere is mediocre at best, got a BP nerf and Togekiss can use STAB Dazzling Gleam to hit Tyranitar. Only really needs three moves: Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam, Fire Blast. Is Fire Blast really necessary or can Flamethrower do the same job?

1. See response above. Almost all suggestions you've given are responses to changes I made because of Alexwolf. If you have a specific change outside of "maybe separate out defensive and offensive?" I'll definitely keep it in mind.
2. Alright. Keep in mind that 50% of Garchomps run Stone Edge, 56% of Noiverns run Boomburst and 43% of Dragonites run Extremespeed, but I see your point.
3. Done.
4. Done.

 

[alexwolf]

You didn't understand me and maybe i was a bit unclear. I meant to have the same EV spread with the second set, but with SpD instead of Def EVs. So basically, i meant for you to remove the SpA EVs and put them to SpD, as without LO you can't OHKO Mega Gengar at +2 anyway.

 

[Deoxymoron]

You didn't understand me and maybe i was a bit unclear. I meant to have the same EV spread with the second set, but with SpD instead of Def EVs. So basically, i meant for you to remove the SpA EVs and put them to SpD, as without LO you can't OHKO Mega Gengar at +2 anyway.

wow, this totally slipped my mind. Finally got around to doing it. Sorry it took so long :/

 

[maciscooler]

• 44 Speed allows it to outspeed base 85s, everything else goes into bulk

Is there anything significant with a base 85 speed.

 

[alexwolf]

When talking about LO on the first set, mention how many SpA EVs are needed to get the OHKO on Mega Gengar at +2.

Regarding the first two sets, mention the moves on each set in the same order with the other one (so just pick one order for the moves and apply it to both sets) and either slash Flamethrower in both sets or in none.

Mention teammates to cover Togekiss's weaknesses on the third set.

QC APPROVED 2/3

 

[MegaKick]

Is there anything significant with a base 85 speed.

The only significant pokemon at base 85 that I can see are heracross and pinsir but hera is usually scarfed and pinsir will usually be mega-evolving.

 

[sidakarya]

Actually, with a neutral nature, the only things it outspeeds are Suicune and Toxicroak, neither of which are very common in OU. Even with Sticky Web up, 207 Speed fails to outspeed Jolly M-Garchomp and does not reach a benchmark for anything else that's relevant. 44 Spe is just not worth it imo.

I actually think that the defensive set is better with no speed investment. Uninvested Skarmory, Magnezone, and Aegislash are all naturally outsped with no investment and are 2HKO'd with Fire Blast. Scizor and Metagross, however, have SE priority, and Careful Tyranitar usually runs Assault Vest, which makes Aura Sphere barely a 2HKO. Those are better taken care of by team-mates. You can't really get past Rotom-W without getting at least one +2.

The bulky-attacking Modest set might benefit from 176 or 196 Speed EVs. The first of these outruns Adamant Breloom which, though it has received a large number of nerfs, is still relevant in OU. 196 Spe outruns Jolly T-Tar. If those aren't a concern but more power is desired, 52 Spe outruns neutral 0 Spe Rotom-W. Both T-Tar and Rotom-W are 2HKO'd by LO Dazzling Gleam after Stealth Rock.

Incidentally, maximised speed allows Togekiss to outrun neutral M-Garchomp, one of the few dragons that Togekiss can actually outspeed. Garchomp tends to be Jolly however.

 

[BLKwho]

i agree with sid^ no speed are slightly better for this mon atm.

 

[sidakarya]

Another advantage of not running speed on the defensive set is that it lets Togekiss run maximum defence. A Bold 248 HP / 252 Def spread, for example, lets Togekiss get away with a 3HKO from a Scarf Garchomp's unboosted Stone Edge, when the rocks are cleared off.

EDIT: On second thought those 52 Spe EVs could be useful, if you're running Nasty Plot. Boosting your special attack allows you to flinchax your way through Rotom-W for long enough for Dazzling Gleam to be in KO-range. It also works better if you're using Sticky Web, as you can outspeed Jolly M-Chomp.

 

[Deoxymoron]

Actually, with a neutral nature, the only things it outspeeds are Suicune and Toxicroak, neither of which are very common in OU. Even with Sticky Web up, 207 Speed fails to outspeed Jolly M-Garchomp and does not reach a benchmark for anything else that's relevant. 44 Spe is just not worth it imo.

I actually think that the defensive set is better with no speed investment. Uninvested Skarmory, Magnezone, and Aegislash are all naturally outsped with no investment and are 2HKO'd with Fire Blast. Scizor and Metagross, however, have SE priority, and Careful Tyranitar usually runs Assault Vest, which makes Aura Sphere barely a 2HKO. Those are better taken care of by team-mates. You can't really get past Rotom-W without getting at least one +2.

The bulky-attacking Modest set might benefit from 176 or 196 Speed EVs. The first of these outruns Adamant Breloom which, though it has received a large number of nerfs, is still relevant in OU. 196 Spe outruns Jolly T-Tar. If those aren't a concern but more power is desired, 52 Spe outruns neutral 0 Spe Rotom-W. Both T-Tar and Rotom-W are 2HKO'd by LO Dazzling Gleam after Stealth Rock.

Incidentally, maximised speed allows Togekiss to outrun neutral M-Garchomp, one of the few dragons that Togekiss can actually outspeed. Garchomp tends to be Jolly however.

Thanks for the advice, along with everyone discussing Speed EVs. Changed the first two sets to 4 Spe, and the last set to 52 Spe, mentioning 176 and 196.

When talking about LO on the first set, mention how many SpA EVs are needed to get the OHKO on Mega Gengar at +2.

Regarding the first two sets, mention the moves on each set in the same order with the other one (so just pick one order for the moves and apply it to both sets) and either slash Flamethrower in both sets or in none.

Mention teammates to cover Togekiss's weaknesses on the third set.

QC APPROVED 2/3

Thanks! I'll write this up soon. Also, I didn't put Flamethrower as a slash on the second set because it needs to run Dazzling Gleam, whereas the first set can afford to run coverage moves.