Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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If MegaGar switches out of Pranksters then you're succesfully preventing him to use Perish Song. Which again hasn't been released on Poke Bank. I didn't argue that Tyranitar was a hard counter but a solid check, and it is. You have to not miss both Focus Blasts' in order to not **** it up. Same possibility we talked before about a speed tie. 50/50, yes?
Oh good, you prevent him from using Perish Song (assuming that is his set) on that one Pokemon, but what's stopping it from doing it on the rest of your Pokemon.

You're also saying that you need to run a Prankster Pokemon on every team not to get beaten by this thing, or be extremely lucky with Focus Blast misses.

In addition, you still neglected to mention anything about the fact that every pro-ban person has been saying. Sure, your Tyranitar eliminates the Gengar, but what do you now do about the problem that Gengar eliminated your Lucario counter before you revenge killed it? That's why we want it banned, not because it's a powerful threat in its own, but it's guaranteed to open a pathway for other Pokemon to sweep/wall. It's undoubtedly the best Support Pokemon for offensive teams because it removes defensive threats that stop it from sweeping. It can be an unbelievable support for Defensive teams because it could eliminate the offensive Pokemon that could potentially break through your defensive Core.

It provides something that no Shadow Tag Pokemon has provided before, an extremely versatile move pool, amazing base stats and guarantee-able methods in order to eliminate opposing Pokemon, which can provide unbelievable team support. Because of this, Gengarite deserves to be banned from OU.
 
So I've readen a lot of these arguments here and I see that the strongest point for the ban is the ability for mega gengar to take down a that certain target that threatens your team.
But this kinda makes me think.. Can it really handle such tasks with its frailty?
Does it really have to try take down wall breaker job?
I hope no one of you are thinking of making drag magnet with mega gengar?

I highly doubt mega gengar will enjoy taking gyro balls, brave birds, pixilate hyper voices, scalds.. even with such 'low' powers.
Or are you guys thinking trapping something like a sweeper or supporter that is threatening your team? Cause that might not end too well for gengar either, speciall with all the other megas running about that pack real punch.


I'm gona be bit blunt:
I really fail to see how mega gengar is going to handle any sort of threat that you really need to take down for your team. Specially with a well build balanced teams around, I really, really fail to see how his trapping ability to get a needed target down does any good to it. A good build team has many checks around for variety of threats. So your mega gengar might take down one with perish song and be severly crippled for later, good job?
Or it can soften things up a bit and then you can break through it easier, bit like most of the other wall breakers?

what I'm trying to say is.. The argument for gengars supportive ability to be able to take down a target sounds very, very case specific. I seriously would not rely on mega gengars supportive assasination ability, I really doubt a good player and well build team would play recklessly if they see gengar.

It just has serious trouble switching in, even with many u-turn volt switch users cause many turners tend to be fast and foil its safe switch in

Gengar really does seem powerful and a threat, but I just don't see it being completely reliable.
Probably for picking off weakened targets at best, to get its obligatory kill trade off.


If mega gengar got a boosting move this would be a completely different story. Real shame he doesnt.
 
And to clarify my position. I am not denying the threat that M-Gengar is on paper. But I'm simply against quick-banning a `mon who isn't even dominating in the ladder. The only `mon that should be liable for quick-ban right now is M-Kanga IMO. The precedent back when I played more often, was only banning pokemon when it was obviously a problem in the ladder. Take only players above 2000, ignore everyone else, and see what teams they are running. If M-Gengar is such a threat, I'm sure he'll be in the ladder.

For now, it seems like a mistake to quick-ban M-gengar however, because it will only solidify M-Kanga as the go to Mega to build a team around. After all, if you're running M-Gengar, you aren't allowed to run M-Kanga.
 
If the problem is it' partner and not Gengar itself you might, you know, kill his partner like you normally do? Predicting when he switches in?
He eliminates your counter, which eliminates the method that you had to normally kill that Pokemon. I don't think you get what I'm saying here. That's proven by the rest of your post.

Edit: I don't want to double post.
So I've readen a lot of these arguments here and I see that the strongest point for the ban is the ability for mega gengar to take down a that certain target that threatens your team.
But this kinda makes me think.. Can it really handle such tasks with its frailty?
Does it really have to try take down wall breaker job?
I hope no one of you are thinking of making drag magnet with mega gengar?

I highly doubt mega gengar will enjoy taking gyro balls, brave birds, pixilate hyper voices, scalds.. even with such 'low' powers.
Or are you guys thinking trapping something like a sweeper or supporter that is threatening your team? Cause that might not end too well for gengar either, speciall with all the other megas running about that pack real punch.


I'm gona be bit blunt:
I really fail to see how mega gengar is going to handle any sort of threat that you really need to take down for your team. Specially with a well build balanced teams around, I really, really fail to see how his trapping ability to get a needed target down does any good to it. A good build team has many checks around for variety of threats. So your mega gengar might take down one with perish song and be severly crippled for later, good job?
Or it can soften things up a bit and then you can break through it easier, bit like most of the other wall breakers?

what I'm trying to say is.. The argument for gengars supportive ability to be able to take down a target sounds very, very case specific. I seriously would not rely on mega gengars supportive assasination ability, I really doubt a good player and well build team would play recklessly if they see gengar.

It just has serious trouble switching in, even with many u-turn volt switch users cause many turners tend to be fast and foil its safe switch in

Gengar really does seem powerful and a threat, but I just don't see it being completely reliable.
Probably for picking off weakened targets at best, to get its obligatory kill trade off.


If mega gengar got a boosting move this would be a completely different story. Real shame he doesnt.
I think the common thing people don't seem to get is that they're under the assumption that Mega Gengar has to do everything by itself. That's not how a support Pokemon works. It's not meant to take hits, nor is it meant to sweep teams. It's meant for one thing, which is to eliminate a Pokemon that causes your TEAM a problem, and then allow the rest of your team to excel from there. Mega Gengar can do this almost 100% of the time.
All I have to say to the above.

For now, it seems like a mistake to quick-ban M-gengar however, because it will only solidify M-Kanga as the go to Mega to build a team around. After all, if you're running M-Gengar, you aren't allowed to run M-Kanga.
Justifying the non-banning of one broken Pokemon because another broken Pokemon will become even more popular is a pretty bad argument :|
 
I don't carry just one counter for common pokemon. That counter could be taken down by wallbreakers anyway. Gengar just does it differently. People that says otherwise and that Gengar is OP just fail or straightforward don't want to see that there are a lot of options to deal with this problem, perhaps because they don't like these options because they involve more tricks or are more complex and go to the easy option: ban Gengar.
Or maybe you don't really see what the real problem is in the first place... which is that it's not meant to sweep teams, it's meant to guarantee to open up holes in the opponent's team.
 
Can we please stop bringing up mega kangaskan. This thread is not about that pokemon, save that for later.

But if I remember correctly every pokemon that has ever gotten shadow tag has been at least suspect tested, with most being quick banned. The first thing to make OU with the ability (gen 5 wobbuffet) was incapable of attacking. It was assumed that had SD chandelure been released, it would have gone straight to ubers, and that thing was basically useless without a choice scarf. Now we have a poke with shadow tag, perish song, taunt + destiny bond, 170 SpAtk, 130 Spe, and it's being considered for OU? Seems like an easy ban candidate.

I feel like a lot of the people that are saying it should stay have only seen the attacking version and not the perish trap or taunt bond versions that are the actual point of this possible banning.
 
One slightly abnormal thing about this situation: Mega Gengar isn't just any slot on your team; it's your Mega slot. I've seen the argument used before, for things like Wobbuffet in earlier gens, which, according to the claims, would let you give it up as a team slot to annihilate anything of your choice, which is decisively in the trapper's favor. On the other hand, Mega Gengar requires you to give up your team's Mega to eliminate something, which might be your opponent's Mega, but they don't have to let it be. It's still probably in your favor, as good strategies are. But it's not as an automatically complete of a victory because of the not-quite-equal value of the team slots unless you get a chance to trap and kill their Mega specifically.
imo sacrificing a Mega slot is, I wouldn't say not a big deal, but imo is very subjective. By giving my mega-slot to Mega Venusaur, some people can subjectively say that I wasted a mega slot by not running Mega Khan instead because of the sheer power that MegaKhan provides, when really, what I needed for my team is not another physical sweeper but rather a tank.

In chess terms/comparison, by sacrificing my MegaGar, I'll be sacrificing my castled rook for the opponent's Queen(maybe a rampaging Salamance, or a boosted Dragonite, or a Blissey that can wall your Keldeo, anything that greatly hinders your team, really).


EDIT: Looking for mods to clean up non-constructive posts in this thread :o
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
If the problem is it' partner and not Gengar itself you might, you know, kill his partner like you normally do? Predicting when he switches in? It might be a little trickier with Gengar for sure, but not impossible. And don't twist my words: you don't need to run a Prankster on every team. You can run a Prankster, a Choice Scarfer, a Priority User, bulky mons with Assault Vest, Pursuiter, Mega Mawile, Mega Kanghaskan, Ghost Types, Sticky Web, Roar... Don't play it off like I haven't mentioned all the options already. There aren't 100% effective options, but there are 80-to-90% effective ones that you would be carrying anyways for other things apart from Gengar.
This is just faulty logic at its base level. The issue here is that if Mega Gengar is paired with, say, Talonflame, and you have a Gliscor to counter said Talonflame, Gengar can easily trap and eliminate Gliscor with Perish Song or Destiny Bond if it is able to switch in on Gliscor. Don't you see the pressure this puts on you? You cannot switch Gliscor into Talonflame safely anymore for fear that it will just be trapped next turn by Mega Gengar. If the opponent has a Lucario as well as Talonflame, then the pressure is even greater, because it means you will want to switch in Gliscor even more. Think of this as a Tyranitar/Landorus/Keldeo core, but one that can work with just about any sweeper.

Also, your counters to Mega Gengar simply aren't what you say they are. Choice Scarf users HATE Mega Gengar, because they can be trapped while locked into a bad move. Priority users have to switch into Gengar, none of which can do so without being 2HKOed. Assault Vest is actually not a good item, and as we've seen, Tyranitar can be 2HKOed while Goodra can't do anything back to Gengar. Mega Mawile can't switch into Gengar at ALL. and has to rely on 50/50s with Sucker Punch to beat it. Mega Kangaskhan also runs risk of dying. It can either EQ predicting the Sub or Sucker Punch predicting an attack. Eventually it will predict wrong, though. Sticky Web doesn't affect its ability to take out walls (even at -1, it still outspeeds neutral base 80s .-.). Ghosts are simply not checks nor counters how can you believe that they are? The point is, that none of the things you mention even come close to counters and most are shaky checks at best.
 
I don't carry just one counter for common pokemon. That counter could be taken down by wallbreakers anyway. Gengar just does it differently. People that says otherwise and that Gengar is OP just fail or straightforward don't want to see that there are a lot of options to deal with this problem, perhaps because they don't like these options because they involve more tricks or are more complex and go to the easy option: ban Gengar.
Wallbreakers can be played around. Gengar cannot. Whatever he switches into, unless they pull out a surprise choice scarf, is as good as dead. Gengar has a variety of tricks up its sleeves to either knockout or escape from pursuit trappers, at which point he then comes back in later to eliminate any other threats to its team. Even if it only gets one knockout, it still made the life of its team's sweeper a million times easier.
 
I feel like Gengarite should stay OU. In order to activate shadow trap, you need to bring gengar out on something he beats. Sure they can switch out, but you can mega evolve and then switch the next turn. Unless the thing that switched in pursuit traps you and you didn't substitute, you can switch gengar out and then your shadow trapper is ready. This means Gengar has to switch in twice to take out significant threats that would normally flee him.

What really makes him balanced is 1. the loss of item, particularly leftovers. Sub/disable gengar is strong, but without leftovers he's very limited. You'd have to pass him wishes to rejuvenate him. Loss of life orb means less damage, but I don't think that's as big an issue as the increased speed is a nice.

2. the loss of levitate. Levitate is amazing when covering a 2x weakness to one of the most common attacks in the game, and Gengar's bulk isn't very good especially on the physical side. Obviously he prefers to trap pokemon that can't OHKO and outspeed him, but without a sub a OHKO is very possible for things that can take a single hit. His ability to trap is really limited to certain mons.

I think the overall effect on the meta is significant, but not enough to warrant a ban. Being a common mega, Gengar could reduce the usage of pokemon that run 2-attack sets where only 1 attack is neither fighting or normal, such as bulk up conkeldurr with drain/mach/stoneedge. Disable mega gengar gets a free KO on conkeldurr if he isn't OHKO on the switch by stone edge. It also threatens pokemon that it outspeeds and can OHKO, but since it's taking a (hopefully resisted) hit with mediocre bulk and no leftovers, it can probably only do this once per battle unless given the opportunity to abuse pain split. I think the number of pokemon that can't 2HKO it, especially with the loss of levitate, is small enough.

Gengar also has IMMUNITIES, which it can switch in on. Any Choice-locked Fighting or Normal-type move is immediately free Substitute fodder or instantly dead at best. It can also switch into Choiced Earthquakes in normal form, choose not to Mega as the opponent either switches or keeps spamming Earthquake, and does heavy damage that way too.
I don't think this is reason to ban him. Choice items have a huge benefit with an inherent risk, and locking yourself into a fighting/normal move after you've seen a gengar on the enemy team is your choice to make. Even if gengarite single-handedly reduces the use of choices items on certain mons, I don't think that warrants a ban. Life orb would probably see even more use, or there are other less potent but good items in expert belt and monotype boosting items that work. It's possible the loss of damage makes a pokemon no longer viable, but then it's just a matter of whether or not the risk of using choice is worth accepting.

The latter isn't really related to gengarite. That's something gengar does better than gengar with gengarite. It's an option, but it's not one you can really control since once you mega your gengar you can't go back. It's generally much more valuable to mega your gengar ASAP so that after you switch, he's ready to trap. Purposely leaving him unevolved just so he can switch into a ground move and let the opponent switch only makes sense if there aren't any pokemon you want to trap or if the ground-attacker is a major revenge-killing threat. Unfortunately, not evolving means he isn't going away, so it's a lose-lose scenario for gengar.
 
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Mega Gengar is extremely broken and i am shocked that this thread even exists, It has 170 special attack and a ton of speed with good typing and a good move pool, what more could you possibly want from a mon other than bulk?

Everyone saying stuff like "it can't take a crunch" the whole point of gengar is to revenge kill key pokemon and win with other threats, i have tried mega gengar out personally and it is ridiculously broken, people aren't grasping what gengar is supposed to do, if your logic to it not being broken is "it can't take a crunch" then you need more experience before you go talking in threads like this, The fact he can just pick pokemon off for free is unrivaled and it can also serve as a late game clean up pokemon due to its immediate power it holds and incredible speed.

Edit: Not to mention the buff that ghost stab got over the new gen....

Are we really having this discussion?
 
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Mega Gengar is extremely broken and i am shocked that this thread even exists, It has 170 special attack and a ton of speed with good typing and a good move pool, what more could you possibly want from a mon other than bulk?

Everyone saying stuff like "it can't take a crunch" the whole point of gengar is to revenge kill key pokemon and win with other threats, i have tried mega gengar out personally and it is ridiculously broken, people aren't grasping what gengar is supposed to do, if your logic to it not being broken is "it can't take a crunch" then you need more experience before you go talking in threads like this, The fact he can just pick pokemon off for free is unrivaled and it can also serve as a late game clean up pokemon due to its immediate power it holds and incredible speed.

Are we really having this discussion?
We're having this discussion because people were disturbed by the sudden and without warning banning of Blaziken and Deoxys-N. The council decided to open this thread in order to see what people's opinions are on it.
 
I have tried Mgar out in a team that uses Deo-S to lay hazards, Volturners + PivotDrum Azu and Mgar.

From my experience it's ridiculous. Is there a Pokémon that doesn't outspeed Mgar and isn't a ghost? Trap, Perish and Stall the guy to death. It's not just a niche eliminator, it can remove a large portion of the meta reliably and with gar mostly unscathed. Now I normally dislike the general argument that a poke makes stall harder therefore it's uber but man this thing can just dismantle pretty much any stall teams lacking Sableye/Mbanette and even then there are 5 other teammates to deal with those. Imma go for Quickban here.

Also yeah as Articblast said if Deo-N is quickbanned then Gengarite can be as well.
 
I have tried Mgar out in a team that uses Deo-S to lay hazards, Volturners + PivotDrum Azu and Mgar.

From my experience it's ridiculous. Is there a Pokémon that doesn't outspeed Mgar and isn't a ghost? Trap, Perish and Stall the guy to death. It's not just a niche eliminator, it can remove a large portion of the meta reliably and with gar mostly unscathed. Now I normally dislike the general argument that a poke makes stall harder therefore it's uber but man this thing can just dismantle pretty much any stall teams lacking Sableye/Mbanette and even then there are 5 other teammates to deal with those. Imma go for Quickban here.

Also yeah as Articblast said if Deo-N is quickbanned then Gengarite can be as well.
The point is we knew how Deoxys worked for years, while Gengarite is a brand new thing. We don't even know how it works on real Pokebank and his most broken set, Sub/Disable/Perish Trapping isn't even here.
 
I'm inclined to disagree. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it's anywhere close to "one of the worst arguments ever." We have two tools with which to make this decision-- our theorymonned knowledge and our actual experiences, so let's not entirely undercut the value of the latter...

There are things that sound absolutely brilliant in theory, but aren't flawless in practice. Wobbuffet was theory-banned during the shoddy battle days even though it seemed like generation 4's offensive threats had caught up to it; there was no statistical data to back up the argument (it wasn't being heavily used) and it was because of a vocal minority that repeatedly painted scenarios of wobbuffet's "unbeatable nature" that it ended up getting the axe.

But really, you had to play optimally to get those kinds of results. You also had to correctly anticipate the moves of your opponent to achieve the best results. The nature of the tools you were using allowed forgiveness from play errors, but at the end of things, player skill was maximizing your results.

I feel like Mega Gengar falls into a similar --although obviously not the same-- kind of camp. Nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar is a very strong tool. But it's a tool that rewards good play on your part and punishes the mistakes your opponent makes-- Yes, you will get into situations when piloting it that you are guaranteed kills if your opponent plays into your hands-- but those guarantees are still play-skill dependent.

You need to account for Mega Gengar in teambuilding. I know others aren't into it, but I'm a huge fan of sticky web, which allows positive-natured, fully invested base 78s to outspeed and get the jump on Mega Gengar and smash its face in, should it switch in grounded. I'm also a huge fan of the mixed, pivot aegislash, who is capable of revenge killing with shadow sneak, but-- more likely-- will punish the opponent's "free" kill, and uses gengar's switch-outs to launch impressively-powered shadow balls and sacred swords at incoming switch ins.

Interplay between megas is something I feel shouldn't be discounted when deciding the fate of Gengarite. As others have mentioned, in choosing gengarite, your are passing up the opportunity to use mega kangaskhan, as well as any other megas which could become topically good. That's a very real cost-- I feel that when we start banning mega stones, we'll be running through quite a few of them because we'll be removing this cost (i.e. "now there's no reason not to use mega kangaskhan, so we have no choice but to ban that"). Since mega stones are a new mechanic, I feel they deserve a bit more time under the microscope, because I'm not convinced we have appropriate respect for some of the teambuilding decisions they require.

It feels true that Mega Gengar is best billed as a team player, who opens the doors for threats to take advantage of the holes it creates. But to do that, you do have to take some teambuilding into account, however minor... Mega Gengar best helps a number of key offensive mons. When you start seeing the same few together, it really drives home the impression that this is a team archetype we're talking about-- that traps and dismantles opponents-- rather than a Blakizen-esque mon that runs the show by itself. We made great strides in generation V to balance what we felt was a major characteristic of competitive play-- infinite weather-- so considering the threat this quickban would have towards other mega pokemon (and maybe you'll laugh, but also the removal of the offensive trap team archetype, if I'm not dumb and that's really a thing) makes me believe that a quickban would be a hasty decision here.

Getting your kill-value up-front is really strong, no question, but other Megas like Kanga deliver value that is greater and while it's not a sure thing, it'd argue it's all-but-guaranteed unless the opponent is packing specific answers.

I think Mega Gengar is insane, massively powerful, and extremely hard to deal with in the right hands. That said, I'm not sure it warrants a quickban.

Thank you for reading.
Summed up pretty much every anti-quick ban argument that has been posted so far. Posts like these are meant to be attended to.

So then we can assume that Sticky Web is on your side of the field as well, no? Theorymon-ing hypothetical situations has nothing to do with supporting an argument.
If the opponent happens to have a Sticky Web user, then yes it will be on my ground until I use a rapid spinner, defoger or a deflector, something that needs to be on a MGengar team in order to carry out its PerishStalling set. I'm not seeing the Theorymoning part about laying down hazards. Unless of course Sticky Web doesn't exist.
 
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I personally thing Mega Gengar has enough flaws to capitalize on, especially considering it has to Mega Evolve, giving a chance to set up your own counter.

There are two very big flaws in Mega Gengar's trapping ability, even with Perish Song. One is obviously Ghost Types (or Tracers I guess) But the second if the loss of Levitate.

This is a HUGE factor in Gengar's elimination. True Substitute is a beast, especially since sound moves of note are Normal type, but Gengar doesn't get Leftovers, and Pain Split with Subtitute leaves Gengar vulnerable to 4MSS.

So Mega Gengar can definately be dealt with, the main question is if it's over centralizing. I don't know what you've been running into, but I haven't seen Mega Gengar used much. I've been running into Kangeskhan and Alakazam (why?) more often.

Choosing only one mega is a huge deciding factor, unlike Garchomp in previous generations where it could just be dropped on every team, and thun center the metagame around itself.

In short, I think it's just something to keep in mind when building a team.
 
I have a problem with a lot of the arguments being thrown around here, so here are my responses to them:

1) Perish Song Mega Gengar is not meant to be a sacrifice Pokemon. You switch it out on the last turn (the opponent still won't be able to switch) and bring it back later to trap and kill something else.

2) The single turn of Mega Evolution is not that big a deal. Use substitute and you're safe from being Pursuit trapped. Now next time you come in, you're free to trap and kill if you do it intelligently.

3) After it has Mega Evolved, Mega Gengar has no counters! A counter by definition is something that can switch in and threaten a given Pokemon. Nothing switches into Mega Gengar after it has Mega Evolved, and therefore by definition it has no counters, so discussion of such "counters" is irrelevant.

4) Checks aren't that important either, because it's the Mega Gengar user that's choosing the matchup, not the opponent. Talonflame beats Mega Gengar? Cool, I won't bring Mega Gengar in on your Talonflame then. I'll bring it in on your Latios or Ferrothorn or Skarmory or whatever else instead. Sure, you can bring in a revenge killer afterward, but if it doesn't have Pursuit, I can just switch out, and if it does, Sub-Disable will solve that problem in a lot of cases. Those two moves alone bring a lot of choiced Pokemon to their knees.

These things said, Mega Gengar does have its flaws. It's too frail to be switching into really any neutral attacks. This can be remedied by using it in conjunction with VoltTurn though. Additionally, it does suffer somewhat from 4MSS if looked at in isolation, but really its moveset should be tailored to what the team needs eliminated. Have trouble with fairies? Give it Sludge Bomb. Special Walls troubling your team? Use the Perish Trapper set, etc.

So although it does have flaws, they can be remedied with a relatively low amount of team support, and these flaws do not prevent it from being too powerful for the metagame in my eyes (and for what it's worth, I'm not generally a pro-ban person. I voted no-ban for both Landorus and Keldeo). I think if we did keep Mega Gengar around for now, it would only be because we've yet to see a true representation of the Pokebank meta, or because we've yet to truly explore the idea of "one overpowered Pokemon per team is okay" that Mega Evolution might introduce, although I still believe that Mega Gengar is far more overpowered than any of the other OU Mega Evolutions.
 
If the opponent happens to have a Sticky Web user, then yes it will be on my ground until I use a rapid spinner, defoger or a deflector, something that needs to be on a MGengar team in order to carry out its PerishStalling set. I'm not seeing the Theorymoning part about laying down hazards. Unless of course Sticky Web doesn't exist.
Defog removes your own Sticky Web, and you can't spin against Mega Gengar :v4:

Also, Zracknel's post was significantly better than any other con-ban post in this thread, and I posted it in the Policy review forum to look at once this dies down. It didn't summarize anything because it didn't use the trivial, pointless arguments that have been used to defend it.
 
This is just faulty logic at its base level. The issue here is that if Mega Gengar is paired with, say, Talonflame, and you have a Gliscor to counter said Talonflame, Gengar can easily trap and eliminate Gliscor with Perish Song or Destiny Bond if it is able to switch in on Gliscor. Don't you see the pressure this puts on you? You cannot switch Gliscor into Talonflame safely anymore for fear that it will just be trapped next turn by Mega Gengar. If the opponent has a Lucario as well as Talonflame, then the pressure is even greater, because it means you will want to switch in Gliscor even more. Think of this as a Tyranitar/Landorus/Keldeo core, but one that can work with just about any sweeper.
Mega-Gengar is Earthquake Weak.

Mega-Gengar uses Perish Song.
Gliscor uses Earthquake.

Oh my, that was useful. Destiny Bond is more of a problem, since that combos much more with Shadow Tag.

Assault Vest is actually not a good item, and as we've seen, Tyranitar can be 2HKOed while Goodra can't do anything back to Gengar.
Goodra just smacks it with Flamethrower, Outrage, Earthquake, or any of the many attacks it has. Good gosh, I know Shadow Tag makes you play stupider (and I fully agree, it is a threat that forces you to play differently). There is no disadvantage to Goodra just smacking Gengar for good measure.

I may have gotten the AV Ttar damage calculations wrong, but that doesn't destroy the whole argument. Gengar does NOT have free reign against the Sp. Def walls of this generation.

alexwolf EDIT: Watch your tone
 
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The point is we knew how Deoxys worked for years, while Gengarite is a brand new thing. We don't even know how it works on real Pokebank and his most broken set, Sub/Disable/Perish Trapping isn't even here.
Each Meta is it's own thing, Gen 1's OU bears little resemblance to gen 2 and so on. Deo-N, while we know him slightly better than Mgar is still on a similar level of knowledge of how he works in the meta, plus Mgar has been quickly optimised (From Sub + 3 attacks Mgar to the current PerishTrap) into the form it's most likely gonna stay as and the Pokebank OU is similar to the meta as will be seen post Pokebank (The only real differences will really be the lack of Gems and no Serperior who is barely viable in PS Pokebank anyway.) imo we know enough about Mgar give him the ol' boot to ubers.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Mega-Gengar is Earthquake Weak.

Mega-Gengar uses Perish Song.
Gliscor uses Earthquake.

Oh my, that was useful. Destiny Bond is more of a problem, since that combos much more with Shadow Tag.



Goodra just smacks it with Flamethrower, Outrage, Earthquake, or any of the many attacks it has. Good gosh, I know Shadow Tag makes you play stupider (and I fully agree, it is a threat that forces you to play differently). But you can only play so stupid. There is no disadvantage to Goodra just smacking Gengar for good measure.

I may have gotten the AV Ttar damage calculations wrong, but that doesn't destroy the whole argument. Gengar does NOT have free reign against the Sp. Def walls of this generation.
Or it could Destiny Bond. You even admit that yourself. Not really seeing your point. You either let Gengar set up a Substitute, or you die when it Destiny Bonds. Point is, Gengar can eliminate any wall it choses to whether running Perish Song or Destiny Bond, thus clearing the way for a sweeper to come in and clean up. As for Goodra, my point was that it can't stop Gengar from switching out and cannot keep switching into it because it has no recovery. Finally, I would appreciate you not being so rude when replying to my arguments. I get that hiding behind the anonymity of the internet lets you act tough, but that's no excuse to be rude.
 
it can be beat almost by Choice scarf users like terrakion or choice scarf chandelure (timid nature)
A lot of people are overlooking the fact that even Choice Scarf Pokemon can't do much to a Mega Gengar with Protect / Disable / Perish Song. This set pretty much destroys stall teams and rips large holes in other teams.
 
Defog removes your own Sticky Web, and you can't spin against Mega Gengar :v4:

Also, Zracknel's post was significantly better than any other con-ban post in this thread, and I posted it in the Policy review forum to look at once this dies down. It didn't summarize anything because it didn't use the trivial, pointless arguments that have been used to defend it.
Who said anything about spinning infront of MGengar or using StickyWeb and a Defogger on the same team? I said MGengar needs support in removing hazards that bug him. Sticky Web isn't theorymoning, it's a valid way to check MGengar if he any hopes of using a PerishStalling set successfully.

Don't be condescending, your mass postings have failed to answer many valid points being brought up or outright ignored them. In order to avoid a meaningless tit for tat this will be my last reply to your posts.
 
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