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Other Is Weather Still Viable?
- Thread starter Beast Mode
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Garchompi
Banned deucer.
To say Hippowdon is more anti-weather than Abomasnow is absurd.
It's definitely not anti-sand for rather obvious reasons, it's not anti-sun because it actually loses to Megazard-Y as well as most sun abusers such as Volcarona and Venusaur, it's not anti-hail because hail teams are no longer a thing (and loses to Abomasnow and ice types anyways) and it's not anti-rain because it loses to any water type.
It's definitely not anti-sand for rather obvious reasons, it's not anti-sun because it actually loses to Megazard-Y as well as most sun abusers such as Volcarona and Venusaur, it's not anti-hail because hail teams are no longer a thing (and loses to Abomasnow and ice types anyways) and it's not anti-rain because it loses to any water type.
LMAO! You're one of them! Don't make me laugh! Hahahaha!
Sand is a neutral weather, it doesn't really have any real abusers, most sand teams are only sand because they're using Tyranitar's or Hippowdon's abilities and not to abuse weather. Sand doesn't boost Rock type attacks like Rain dows with Water type attacks, which is imo, the REAL way of abusing weather offensively(notice that Rain is the most common weather even Drizzle is illegal with Swift Swim?)
About the sun teams, you're just contradicting yourself. If Hippowdon can't deal with those sun-based Pokémons, what more when it's Abomasnow?
"Loses to Abomasnow and ice types anyways"
Using a mono-ice team is just plain dumb for obvious reasons I will not even bother posting. Real hail teams only has one of two(usually Kyu-B) Ice types so it's not much.
"hail is not a thing" it never was really, unless you're talking about Gen IV.
Nah, it can actually outstall some water-types or phaze some like Gyarados.
Remember this:
Hippowdon is an anti-weather Pokémon because of how easy it can survive, you can switch it in multiple times, the most obvious is double-switching like they switch their Politoed to Keldeo and you switch to Hippowdon to negate the rain, thanks to SR resistance Hippowdon only took little residual damage, and then you switch out(what, those Pokémon has Shadow Tag?).
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with weather nerfed (because rain was too strong imo) paves the way for mixed weather synergy before it was hard to decide which weather to be more dominant in a mixed weather team but since weather is nerfed to 5 turns mixed weather will be strong since you can control 2 terrains without having to worry about your pokemon losing advantage the whole game without its preferred weather this doesnt make weather as strong but its something to think about knowing you have to restart your weather no matter what.
I'm trying out Thundurus-I as rain dancer, but he's not doing as much for the team as I feel he should. Perhaps I'm misusing him?
Zephyr (Thundurus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder
He's hard to switch in, and pretty much anything worth thunderwaving could bash his face in that turn.
Zephyr (Thundurus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder
He's hard to switch in, and pretty much anything worth thunderwaving could bash his face in that turn.
I think the main reason you don't have much success with it is because Thunderus really isn't all that bulky. You are still better off using another prankster user for rain dance or just a generally bulky pokemon. Politoad still works great too. You must run damp rock now but Politoad still has access to rest and is fairly bulky.
Qualna: Sand has Stoutland and Excadrill with Sand Rush. One of them was banned last gen partially because of Sand. Sand was just as common as Rain was in Gen V, and even with Drizzle and Swift Swim legal in Gen VI Politoed is almost nowhere to be seen on the ladder while Tyranitar ranks pretty damn high. Your point is invalid.
His point was not that Abomasnow counters Sun, but that Hippowdon doesn't. You are the one stating that Hippowdon is an anti-weather pokemon, while it clearly can't switch in on MegaZard Y. It also doesn't carry Stone Edge commonly, if at all. So it can't even hurt Charizard.
Hippowdon does lose to Abomasnow. He has a valid point, no matter how you turn it. It doesn't matter whether he carries more Ice-types on his team, Hippowdon doesn't counter Hail.
Hail was definitely a thing, not only in Gen IV but in Gen V as well. Multiple people topped the OU ladder with Hail Stall. It was just as viable as any other weather, and actually had a favorable matchup against the two main weathers Sand and Rain (bad matchup against Sun obviously, but those were much less common compared to the other two).
I don't see how Hippowdon is outstalling Water-types whatsoever. Especially if they have Scald or Toxic. Hippowdon is not phazing a Gyarados without taking over 50% from Waterfall I'll tell you that much. It even has 30% chance to get 2HKO'd because of the flinch rate.
Your example makes zero sense. You would switch in Hippowdon on a Politoed, and then you claim that you're countering them by having a Hippowdon out against Keldeo? Not even gonna elaborate on this.
The only rain setters I've had success with are politoed for specs hydro pump, kingdra for its own swift swim sweep, klefki with its prankster and thunder wave, and mega ampharos with its access to electric terrain and thunder for massive damage (more for doubles, but workable in singles).
Banned because it was broken, so don't count it, we can say sun(or maybe sand) has Blaziken which is 1000 times more broken.
And also, most Sand teams aren't full of Sand Rush, Sand Force and Rock type Pokémons, lmao do your research. Hell, Sand Rush Pokémons are even pretty uncommon back in gen V. Like I said, Sand teams are just teams with Tyranitar / Hippowdon slapped in it because they're too good.
I was actually referring more on Gen V about sun, where they only have the stupidly weak Ninetales.
"why would you switch in Hippowdon" because weather isn't permanent this time, switching is waay more predictable, and I have seen it several times. And they also have U-Turn and Volt-Switch, as those two are pretty common on sand teams last time I checked. Hey, U-Turn or Volt Switch is actually my most common way of brining Hippo in. Abomasnow can do that too but like I said, Hippo is less vulnerable to hazards.
"counter a Keldeo" lol, Keldeo got Shadow Tag, help us pl0x!
EDIT: Forgot to say this...
"Hail was definitely a thing" technically yes, but no. Hail has NO abusers. They only use Abomasnow is because it's the best switch in to most Water-types(and the damage per turn).
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Why would we talk about gen V? Thats over and pretty much done. Now that Gen VI is here, we can definitely count excadrill cause its not banned anymore and is definitely an abuser of sand. Blaziken may be banned, but there's still a million sun abusers that can beat Hippowdon without weather (MegaZard, venusaur, Infernape, Rotom-H, etc.) that you failed to mention. And lastly, Sand teams were full of sand abusers, from pokes with type immunities and abilities canceling damage to sand force/rush abusers. The only pokes on most sand teams that didn't gain something from sand were the ones chosen to check would be sand-counters like Rotom-W being used to check water types, so I don't see how sand is strictly neutral as every pokemon that is used with sand either benefits from it, or benefits from having abusers on their team, and I don't think that'll change. I may be misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but I think you're the one who needs to do some research, things that worked last gen obviously don't automatically carry over.
Perhaps the way you are trying to use this set is the problem- replace the leftovers for a life orb and you have a pokemon who can deal a lot of damage with the boltbeam combo whilst always being able to set up an ally when it is time for thundurus to die. If they send in a sweeper with the aim of revenging thundurus and then sweeping in return, for instance moxie scarf gyarados, then you can thunder wave that sweeper and cripple them for the rest of the match. Alternatively, if they send in a pokemon who is capable of revenging but is then likely to not pose a problem to the rest of your team, you can rain dance before your death and switch in a powerful rain dance sweeper the next turn, keeping the momentum on your side. Similarly if you are threatened by a ground type or something which might hold a lum berry then you can go for the rain dance.
Basically your main aim with this is not to be a supporter with coverage moves, but to be a powerful attacker who is always able to set up another pokemon on your team before dying.
If you use this set again please tell me whether it works or not because I really wanted to try something along these lines and I think thundurus is the pokemon for the job (or perhaps talonflame and using tailwind + will-o-wisp instead of twave and rain dance)
hippowdon switching into water attacks repeatedly sounds really dumb. abomasnow is clearly a better counter against rain teams, and hail wearing off in five turns actually boosts its ability to counter weather and abomasnow in general since hail teams are crappy anyway. now it's free damage on m-abomasnow's already powerful attacks, and 100% accuracy blizzards with very little drawback.
Ah, interesting. You're probably right. The rain becomes more of a bonus in that build. I'm considering swapping out thunder for thunderbolt or voltswitch then, though he isn't the main rain setter so maybe he'll get more chances to use it after all.
Outside of prankster and increased speed (noteworthy advantages), it seems to me that Zapdos might make a better rain dancer. It has naturally higher bulk and access to Roost, which prolongs your longevity. Keep in mind that Zapdos has the same SpA and still good speed, making it a viable attacker.
The choice between the two seems like it depends more on how you want to play this. Do you want Thundurus to be a primary abuser rather than supporting the rest of the team? Then it may be better so just go with LO and use prankster T-wave as a failsafe.
On the other hand, if you want something to consistently set up rain for the rest of the team while being able to abuse it itself, Zapdos may be preferable. Access to Roost is huge, especially if you opt for Damp Rock to prolong the weather.
On its analysis, it says that a Calm Nature is recommended for Heat Rock Ninetales... why is this? Is it just for taking hits better during RestTalk turns?.... I don't know about anybody else, but I'd much rather get the jump on certain things to burn them with Will-O-Wisp.
(trying so hard to justify Timid Nature on Ninetales. I have a timid, perfect Shiny Vulpix w/ HP Ice ingame and I want it to be viable so badly!)
(trying so hard to justify Timid Nature on Ninetales. I have a timid, perfect Shiny Vulpix w/ HP Ice ingame and I want it to be viable so badly!)
I find that one of the most irritating things about the weather nerf is how fun playstyles for certain pokemon are being nerfed, the stall-ish ones in particular. Venusaur's subseed set was always very useful on sun teams, but with a limited duration Venusaur can only enjoy the chlorophyll for only a few turns. This is a huge problem and basically forces sun team Venusaurs back to being offensive only.
Well in my opinion it finally takes some skill to pull off a good weatherteam and that it's more of a challenge now to get the overhand instead of just having perma-weather. Though I have to agree that weatherstall has taken a blow.
Politoed is still a great Pokemon (though defensive + Damp Rock is the only set you should be running, unless you have multiple back up Rain Dance users) and rain teams are still very viable and a nightmare to face if you are not prepared for them, which happens with a lot of teams actually, because people think that Politoed is not worth using anymore. Pokemon such as Crawdaunt, Azumarill, Kabutops, Moltres, Kingdra, Keldeo, and Starmie are great both inside and outside of rain. Rain teams just have to depend less on rain and be more self-sufficient, and maybe use a back up rain supporter/sweeper, such as 3 attacks + Rain Dance Kingdra or Rain Dance Tentacruel. Really, with opposing weather teams being quite rare, and the most common weather inducer being Tyranitar, which is not hard at all to wear down and struggles to switch into most Pokemon rain offense teams carry, it's almost easier to keep rain up than it was in 5th gen, and any kind of team is in a lot of trouble against those rain monsters with rain up.
- CB Crawdaunt 2HKOes everything (even Chesnaught, it's supposed only counter) and needs zero prediction while also offering stupidly strong priority (Aqua Jet in rain does ~63% damage to Mega Kangaskhan, roughly the same amount of damage with CB Brave Bird from Talonflame).
- Kabutops cleans offensive teams like no other, defensive teams too with Swords Dance, gives no fuck about Talonflame with Aqua Jet (the most common revenge killer for offensive teams) and checks opposing Talonflame as well (big threat for offensive teams), and can spin too.
- Keldeo is still Keldeo and a monster under rain with an all out attacking set with LO, which takes advantage of the fact that defensive Pokemon usually invest in Defense, 2HKOing resists such as Trevenant, Azumarill, Rotom-W, and Gourgeist with Hydro Pump, and 2HKOing easily the only common Grass-type that can survive two Hydro Pumps, Ferrothorn, with Sacred Sword.
- Moltres got a ton more viable even though its main weapon got nerfed (Hurricane) as it now doesn't have to worry about Stealth Rock that much and can actually put that great defensive typing into good use with a simple Roost + 3 attacks set or a Specs set (the latter of which always 2HKOes max HP Rotom-W after SR).
- Azumarill is weaker than Crawdaunt with a CB set but still remains a nightmare to wall, but it can also use a BD set with Mystic Water, which after setting up, OHKOes everything up to offensive Latias with Aqua Jet after SR, while OHKOing any slower Water-type resist with either Waterfall or Play Rough (Waterfall OHKOes standard Ferrothorn 100% of the time).
- Analytic Starmie is similar to Keldeo, taking advantage of the lack of specially defensive Water-resists with powerful Hydro Pumps, but gives up the ability to 2HKO Ferrothorn and the ability to take some weak hits in exchange for Rapid Spin, better Speed, ability to get past Mega Venusaur, and better all around coverage.
Simply by taking a quick look at the usage stats of the last month for the PokeBank metagame, you can see that out of the 16 Water resists / immunities in OU, only 4 of them (Jellicent, Goodra, Venusaur, Ferrothorn) are bulky enough to take more than two rain-boosted Hydro Pumps from common rain sweepers, and all of them can be bypassed with the secondary STABs or coverage moves of the rain sweepers (Keldeo has Sacred Sword to deal with 2 of those, Starmie has Psyshock to deal with 3 of those, Kingdra has Dragon STAB to deal with 3 of those, Crawdaunt 2HKOes all of them with Crabhammer anyway, or OHKOes Jellicent with Knock Off, etc). Of course the metagame is still very undeveloped and premature, but we can see how underrated rain offense is atm.
- CB Crawdaunt 2HKOes everything (even Chesnaught, it's supposed only counter) and needs zero prediction while also offering stupidly strong priority (Aqua Jet in rain does ~63% damage to Mega Kangaskhan, roughly the same amount of damage with CB Brave Bird from Talonflame).
- Kabutops cleans offensive teams like no other, defensive teams too with Swords Dance, gives no fuck about Talonflame with Aqua Jet (the most common revenge killer for offensive teams) and checks opposing Talonflame as well (big threat for offensive teams), and can spin too.
- Keldeo is still Keldeo and a monster under rain with an all out attacking set with LO, which takes advantage of the fact that defensive Pokemon usually invest in Defense, 2HKOing resists such as Trevenant, Azumarill, Rotom-W, and Gourgeist with Hydro Pump, and 2HKOing easily the only common Grass-type that can survive two Hydro Pumps, Ferrothorn, with Sacred Sword.
- Moltres got a ton more viable even though its main weapon got nerfed (Hurricane) as it now doesn't have to worry about Stealth Rock that much and can actually put that great defensive typing into good use with a simple Roost + 3 attacks set or a Specs set (the latter of which always 2HKOes max HP Rotom-W after SR).
- Azumarill is weaker than Crawdaunt with a CB set but still remains a nightmare to wall, but it can also use a BD set with Mystic Water, which after setting up, OHKOes everything up to offensive Latias with Aqua Jet after SR, while OHKOing any slower Water-type resist with either Waterfall or Play Rough (Waterfall OHKOes standard Ferrothorn 100% of the time).
- Analytic Starmie is similar to Keldeo, taking advantage of the lack of specially defensive Water-resists with powerful Hydro Pumps, but gives up the ability to 2HKO Ferrothorn and the ability to take some weak hits in exchange for Rapid Spin, better Speed, ability to get past Mega Venusaur, and better all around coverage.
Simply by taking a quick look at the usage stats of the last month for the PokeBank metagame, you can see that out of the 16 Water resists / immunities in OU, only 4 of them (Jellicent, Goodra, Venusaur, Ferrothorn) are bulky enough to take more than two rain-boosted Hydro Pumps from common rain sweepers, and all of them can be bypassed with the secondary STABs or coverage moves of the rain sweepers (Keldeo has Sacred Sword to deal with 2 of those, Starmie has Psyshock to deal with 3 of those, Kingdra has Dragon STAB to deal with 3 of those, Crawdaunt 2HKOes all of them with Crabhammer anyway, or OHKOes Jellicent with Knock Off, etc). Of course the metagame is still very undeveloped and premature, but we can see how underrated rain offense is atm.
I know this was touched upon already, but it's important to note that using Abomasnow for its ability to beat rain just isn't worth it anymore. On top of rain's much lower usage now than in BW, a much easier way to "win the weather war" is quite simply to kill the opponent's Politoed. No, it's not as immediate as switching in your Abomasnow, but it's far more worthwhile just to play with this goal in mind than to use Abomasnow, a pretty mediocre Pokemon in the current metagame.
I use a sun team for pokebank OU and what i can conclude is that weather is, most definitely, still viable.
-The weather nerf: I am actually quite thankful for that one. Last gen, i used 60% the same team i am using now and every 2nd or 3rd battle its weather warz. Now, i have had more than 70 battles, from the 1000s all the way to the 1800s, and thankfully not even one Poli showed up, nor did a lot of ttar and stoutland and whatnot that is just my worst nightmare. Weather warzz was one of the factors that hinders me last gen, but now they are gone. Even tho greninja is like the new Keldeo(water type, can sweep sort of, has similar usage) and talonflame the new tran(they function completely differently ik but it is about as common and can take sun to their advantage), the meta is more welcoming for sun this gen imo. Even though 8/10 turns is so much different to infinite weather and keeping your weather starter is so much more important now(so you cant be like "i have sun/rain/w.e. up i can sac my starter whenever i want" after making sure your weather is dominating), there are much less things hindering weather now.(Keldeos gone, terrakion is gone, Latios is almost, toxicroak and gastrodon and stoutland were completely banished)
-the setters: When Zard-Y first came out(before i knew about the weather nerf) i thought sun would be more common, but i was wrong. Many people have been telling me to use Zard-Y and kick 9tales, but i knew i cant rely on something that is 4x SR weak and sets sun up for a mere 5 turns, even though my mega slot was open. Yes, Zard-Y can sweep, but this way it would be more of an individual sweeper than a sun setter and it cant cover any threat that i currently cant counter, at the cost of not getting in nearly as freely(4x SR weakness? seriouslee?) and less turns of sun is just not worth it imo. The weather starters (not counting ttar as i dont see a lot of pure sand abusing teams) didnt get any notable buff as i am aware of, but some of the pre-existing sets still work.
-Sweepers: the only new sweepers sun got is M-Houndoom and Zard Z and Y. Yes they look very good on paper but Victini is still better imo. No new poke get chlorophyll and is viable in ou, and M-Venusaur on a sun team is kinda meh imo. Greninja is a good addition for rain i can imagine, and Excadrill is a "new"(banned last gen) toy for sand teams. All the swift swimmers still exist, and i dont get why weather usage is so low for rain at least, as rain with swift swim is still viable by all means.
-Who got the biggest buff/smallest nerf? Sand most definitely. ttar can either carry smooth rock or simply mega-evolve when sand is gone. Its not like it doesnt have the bulk to switch in, and after the mega-evo it sweeps even better. Excadrill with all its sand rush stuffz is really a threat, as not even talonflame can revenge kill it at full until sand is stalled out. It also serves as a passable spinner, but you better off use a defogger most of the time. No sand sweeper was nerfed or banned, and lando-i is still that beast from last gen, no matter how much i think it should be banned XP
All in all, i think that weather is still viable, but much much less common. This makes weather a very niche strategy, and yet it still works, all that is required is more skill and one needs to play weather differently(no sacing your starter anymore, and defensive starters is much more viable as compared to offensive ones now). Most, if not all, forms of weather stall is dead, but offense is what most people care about lol and i await more people using weather.
-The weather nerf: I am actually quite thankful for that one. Last gen, i used 60% the same team i am using now and every 2nd or 3rd battle its weather warz. Now, i have had more than 70 battles, from the 1000s all the way to the 1800s, and thankfully not even one Poli showed up, nor did a lot of ttar and stoutland and whatnot that is just my worst nightmare. Weather warzz was one of the factors that hinders me last gen, but now they are gone. Even tho greninja is like the new Keldeo(water type, can sweep sort of, has similar usage) and talonflame the new tran(they function completely differently ik but it is about as common and can take sun to their advantage), the meta is more welcoming for sun this gen imo. Even though 8/10 turns is so much different to infinite weather and keeping your weather starter is so much more important now(so you cant be like "i have sun/rain/w.e. up i can sac my starter whenever i want" after making sure your weather is dominating), there are much less things hindering weather now.(Keldeos gone, terrakion is gone, Latios is almost, toxicroak and gastrodon and stoutland were completely banished)
-the setters: When Zard-Y first came out(before i knew about the weather nerf) i thought sun would be more common, but i was wrong. Many people have been telling me to use Zard-Y and kick 9tales, but i knew i cant rely on something that is 4x SR weak and sets sun up for a mere 5 turns, even though my mega slot was open. Yes, Zard-Y can sweep, but this way it would be more of an individual sweeper than a sun setter and it cant cover any threat that i currently cant counter, at the cost of not getting in nearly as freely(4x SR weakness? seriouslee?) and less turns of sun is just not worth it imo. The weather starters (not counting ttar as i dont see a lot of pure sand abusing teams) didnt get any notable buff as i am aware of, but some of the pre-existing sets still work.
-Sweepers: the only new sweepers sun got is M-Houndoom and Zard Z and Y. Yes they look very good on paper but Victini is still better imo. No new poke get chlorophyll and is viable in ou, and M-Venusaur on a sun team is kinda meh imo. Greninja is a good addition for rain i can imagine, and Excadrill is a "new"(banned last gen) toy for sand teams. All the swift swimmers still exist, and i dont get why weather usage is so low for rain at least, as rain with swift swim is still viable by all means.
-Who got the biggest buff/smallest nerf? Sand most definitely. ttar can either carry smooth rock or simply mega-evolve when sand is gone. Its not like it doesnt have the bulk to switch in, and after the mega-evo it sweeps even better. Excadrill with all its sand rush stuffz is really a threat, as not even talonflame can revenge kill it at full until sand is stalled out. It also serves as a passable spinner, but you better off use a defogger most of the time. No sand sweeper was nerfed or banned, and lando-i is still that beast from last gen, no matter how much i think it should be banned XP
All in all, i think that weather is still viable, but much much less common. This makes weather a very niche strategy, and yet it still works, all that is required is more skill and one needs to play weather differently(no sacing your starter anymore, and defensive starters is much more viable as compared to offensive ones now). Most, if not all, forms of weather stall is dead, but offense is what most people care about lol and i await more people using weather.
If you haven't used kingdra yet this gen, you owe it to yourself to give it a try. Draco meteor, surf, waterfall and a filler move are all you need to completely wreck a team. Throw a politoad and magnezone on that team for the best results.
The first thing that comes into mind is Azumarill, forcing Kingdra to switch out as Azumarill is immune to dragon and resists water. Magnezone can also be disposed of by Azumarill if the opposition predicts well enough and superpowers on the switch, and net the kill with aqua jet. I must admit Kingdra wrecks shop tho
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Yeah, the team is still a work in progress, but kingdra is surprisingly powerful on both the physical and special side. Luckily its still an uncommon site in the current metagame.
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