Another Scarf Rotom-H here. It seems to be good for every circumstance. And if all else will fail, it has Volt Switch to make a rapid exit.
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Other Dedicated Leads
- Thread starter Jojobobo
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Sash Breloom is really strong, does basically the same thing as fifth gen but with Rock Tomb.
I usually just lead with Genesect, as it's on pretty much every team I make.
I usually just lead with Genesect, as it's on pretty much every team I make.
Suicide leads are a thing of the past. Since anything they do is probably temporary (hazards, Dual Screens, weather all now seem to be short lived), the only valuable leads are those that either KO a pokemon or two before leaving or stick around for the rest of the fight. I've like Infernape who can break sturdy with fake out and OHKO Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn with flare blitz, or U-turn out. Hippowdon can set SR, set up weather, take hits all day, and KO a couple of foes. Klefki can do a lot of things. Any set up sweeper can take advantage of them trying to set hazards and give you a lot of momentum for down the road. Espeon doesn't even need to lead, as just seeing it in team preview forces your opponent to rethink their strategy. All in all, I think leads will stick around.
Woah, woah, woah. Why are people saying suicide leads are a thing of the past? Why are people saying they suck now that Defog has come out? While Defog may have buffed the way of removing hazards, I would say it hurt stall a lot more since they depend on hazards. HO on the other hand, moves so fast, that you normally don't even worry about the Rapid Spin / Defogger since you're killing everything way too fast. And since HO is normally too fast and powerful, you normally are worrying way too much about countering / checking your opponent's crazy powerful pokemon that you're not paying attention to getting rid of hazards. That said, some hazard suicide leads HAVE become less viable, and it is in my opinion that suicide leads that can attack are the best ones in order to keep the pressure on as much as possible.
Ambipoms fake out is really meh. In gen v uu i would lead my inner focus stallbreaker crobat take the fake out retaliate with brave bird and u turn out for the easy ko while still enough health to switch in again with sr on the field.
Ambipom is more anniying than anything else. Personally i prefer cincinnno over ambipom. It has better coverage in bullet seed and rock blast along with stab tail slap. It has the same speed but 5 less atk points.
Ambipom is more anniying than anything else. Personally i prefer cincinnno over ambipom. It has better coverage in bullet seed and rock blast along with stab tail slap. It has the same speed but 5 less atk points.
While I don't have a dedicated lead (remaining flexible is always most important when looking at the enemy team), I use this the most often:
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Yache Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
He's immune to the inevitable Thunder Wave leads, he's fast enough to out-speed Smeargle, most grass-type leads (with their Leech Seeds and Spores), and he loves to set-up time given to him by hazard setters. Just build up a Nasty Plot or two and you're set. Most Pokemon that use Whirlwind will get one-shotted by Thunderbolt (as well as Empoleon with its Roar) and he'll even take large chunks out of enemies even on resisted hits with Thunderbolt. He carries a Yache Berry since the most common response other than phazing is Ice Shard, but he can usually tank a hit after the sub and finish them off.
He certainly doesn't last very long after the sub is down, but I can generally take out an enemy or two (or at least heavily dent them). He's been very successful for me.
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Yache Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
He's immune to the inevitable Thunder Wave leads, he's fast enough to out-speed Smeargle, most grass-type leads (with their Leech Seeds and Spores), and he loves to set-up time given to him by hazard setters. Just build up a Nasty Plot or two and you're set. Most Pokemon that use Whirlwind will get one-shotted by Thunderbolt (as well as Empoleon with its Roar) and he'll even take large chunks out of enemies even on resisted hits with Thunderbolt. He carries a Yache Berry since the most common response other than phazing is Ice Shard, but he can usually tank a hit after the sub and finish them off.
He certainly doesn't last very long after the sub is down, but I can generally take out an enemy or two (or at least heavily dent them). He's been very successful for me.
i still use suicide deoxys leads because it gives me an early advantage. I dont always lead with them but 90% of the time I do.
everyone saying that dedicated suicide leads are dead are so wrong lol. if you maintain offensive pressure, which isn't hard with HO teams, your opponent will often have to make a choice to defog and die or switch out and keep your hazards up. Most defog users I see are extremely important staples/pivots to teams like bulky latias, mew, zapdos, scizor, mandibuzz, etc and if you lose one of your important mons just to win the "hazard war" it can give the opponent more space for a sweep, even without hazards. and most of the time, players will choose to fire off a defog and take huge damage just to clear hazards.
everyone saying that dedicated suicide leads are dead are so wrong lol. if you maintain offensive pressure, which isn't hard with HO teams, your opponent will often have to make a choice to defog and die or switch out and keep your hazards up. Most defog users I see are extremely important staples/pivots to teams like bulky latias, mew, zapdos, scizor, mandibuzz, etc and if you lose one of your important mons just to win the "hazard war" it can give the opponent more space for a sweep, even without hazards. and most of the time, players will choose to fire off a defog and take huge damage just to clear hazards.
Azelf/Mew might be able to survive as traditional suicide leads because they can block both forms of hazard control with them using taunt for defog and explosion for rapid spin and a well built HO team shouldn't give you a chance to control hazards after the lead's gone. Mew in particular gets a couple new nifty tricks like knock off and defog to evolve form and "suicide hazard" lead to an "anti-setup" pokemon if it comes to that.
Deoxys suicide leads are still really good (both if them). It isn't hard to prevent your opponent from getting up hazards, getting up rocks and a spike, and using a fast taunt to stop defog. While nothing spin blocks excadrill, it is very easy to force out, as it is outsped and ohkoed by many things. Also, while defog is a problem, you can carry taunt deoxys and often carry another on your team. Offensive pressure works well too, as of you can predict they lati switchins you can prevent the defog with shit like scarf genesect. Finally, there is my boy bisharp. It is way to strong, and with a free ad it's not fair. Deosharp is the new deogar xD.
Ferrothorn that knows t-wave, Stealth rocks, power whip and subsitute. This usally works out well, as Fetro can take a hit, Paralyze your lead, and often forces a switch allowing me to ethier set up a substitute or set up Stealth rocks (whichever I find more important at the time ) Best part of all is that the occasional burn lead doesn't affect him much. But this set is horrible if your opponent leads with a trick rotom Dx.
I agree that dedicated leads are generally poor decisions for Pokemon on a team. Obviously this varies with Pokemon, playstyles, and even players, but generally they are fairly easily exploitable. However, this doesn't mean that Pokemon that are often seen as dedicated leads are bad ones to use. Most Taunt users are still good Pokemon in their own regard, and Taunt is just a great move in general. You can also use Pokemon as leads quite often without that Pokemon being a "dedicated lead." U-turn and Volt Switch users, both fast and frail like Genesect and slow and bulky like Rotom, are good examples of Pokemon that work well in the lead position yet can still function very well outside of it.
There are, of course, also other ways of using Pokemon that are typically considered as suicide leads. I ran into a really crafty user of a suicide Sticky Web Smeargle who adapted really well to Defog and common spinners by waiting to bring it out until after my Excadrill had already been taken out and my hazards had been cleared with his own Defog user. Seeing a Mandibuzz and a Smeargle on the same team led me to believe that he was using SmashPass Smeargle or some gimmicky set, so I didn't mind losing my spinner so much towards the middle of the battle. I let my guard down pretty early on, and it came back to bite me. Had I not have had Sub Kyurem-B, which pretty much steamrolled through his team, I'd have probably lost that battle.
What I'm getting at here is that more often than not, better players are malleable in how they use their leads. Lead Deoxys-S can still work, but it requires a much more precise team in order to function reliably. You're almost always better off by taking time out to assess the opponent's team as soon as Team Preview is revealed and basing your decision on a) their most likely lead or b) what threatens the opponent's team the most from the beginning without giving up too much momentum. Pokemon is ultimately a huge mind game, and locking yourself into only one possible lead is extremely counter-intuitive.
There are, of course, also other ways of using Pokemon that are typically considered as suicide leads. I ran into a really crafty user of a suicide Sticky Web Smeargle who adapted really well to Defog and common spinners by waiting to bring it out until after my Excadrill had already been taken out and my hazards had been cleared with his own Defog user. Seeing a Mandibuzz and a Smeargle on the same team led me to believe that he was using SmashPass Smeargle or some gimmicky set, so I didn't mind losing my spinner so much towards the middle of the battle. I let my guard down pretty early on, and it came back to bite me. Had I not have had Sub Kyurem-B, which pretty much steamrolled through his team, I'd have probably lost that battle.
What I'm getting at here is that more often than not, better players are malleable in how they use their leads. Lead Deoxys-S can still work, but it requires a much more precise team in order to function reliably. You're almost always better off by taking time out to assess the opponent's team as soon as Team Preview is revealed and basing your decision on a) their most likely lead or b) what threatens the opponent's team the most from the beginning without giving up too much momentum. Pokemon is ultimately a huge mind game, and locking yourself into only one possible lead is extremely counter-intuitive.
I kind of use av conk as a suicide lead (i am willing to switch him out depending on the situation, but often i let him suicide). With knock off and a powerful drain punch, priority mach punch, and ice punch he often can take out at least two of the other guys pokes giving me a quick lead. but depending on the team or what he brings in on conk (ex: azum) I will switch him out since he cant do anything to that poke and will be killed.
I have been playing competitive ever since Gen. 4. Honestly, D/P/Pt. Is the ONLY generation thus far that I have found leading hazards effective. It was super easy at first (possibly because it was the first time everyone was able to use Stealth Rock), however I've noticed a lot of "lead counters" showing up in Gen 5 and Gen 6. Ambipom and Mienshoo are examples. I just gave up on them, and instead switched to a lead sweeper. My choice is Nidoking (holy shit he rapes), and he can sometimes cripple a team right off the bat. It's ridiculous really. So yeah I don't really see the need for a hazard setter or really a "lead" in my team. Just replace with a sweeper and give them some lubricant.
Terrakion @ Fist Plate /focus sash
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge / earthquake
- Taunt
This is my favorite lead. Terrakion is used more as an anti-lead actually. It's ability to pull of fast taunts make leads like smeargle useless. Taunt prevents the opponent from defogging your rocks (most defog users are bulky, but speed invested latias will outspeed). Smeargles always switch out after a taunt, so the rocks ruin it's focus sash the next time it switches in. Close combat packs the most punch. stone edge makes for nice duel STAB, but then you're walled by aegislash.
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge / earthquake
- Taunt
This is my favorite lead. Terrakion is used more as an anti-lead actually. It's ability to pull of fast taunts make leads like smeargle useless. Taunt prevents the opponent from defogging your rocks (most defog users are bulky, but speed invested latias will outspeed). Smeargles always switch out after a taunt, so the rocks ruin it's focus sash the next time it switches in. Close combat packs the most punch. stone edge makes for nice duel STAB, but then you're walled by aegislash.
Crobat is a good lead as it 1) Taunts, 2) U-Turn, and 3) Defogs.
I love this lead actually very good results too. Crobat is super fast with Jolly and max investment, will outspeed Modest Jolteon.
I usually give it a Yache Berry so it can survive Ice Shard from Mamoswine (Then I taunt and then switch)
I love this lead actually very good results too. Crobat is super fast with Jolly and max investment, will outspeed Modest Jolteon.
I usually give it a Yache Berry so it can survive Ice Shard from Mamoswine (Then I taunt and then switch)
Personally I find dedicated leads to be an antiquated notion. Rather, I'll always lead with what I think will result in an advantageous match-up. That first turn momentum makes or breaks matches, especially considering how offensive the metagame is, currently. Setting up hazards and what not early on is great, but I'd rather just push the momentum into my favour from the get-go and leave the hazards until a free turn comes up later on.
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But isn't it kind of bad to start off with a sweeper as a lead? You then just wasted a sweeper that could be used once all of its counters are out and actually sweep. Starting off with a sweeper doesn't usally give it a chance to sweep I would assume. I love hazard setting leads tho, so I'm alittle diffrent because well Steal rock hurt ALOT(X2 effectiveness)of the metagame right now, tho I'm thinking off running a Ferrotyorn with Baton pass so it can set up SR baton pass out and have use later on weather it be to kill/pivot etc and Baton pass a sub if it seems necessary. Nidoking is cool and all, but he seems like he would have more use later on in the match....Then again im a noob so.....
Rotom is by far one of the most common leads at the moment, i've been seeing more and more people running low speed/no speed rotom just to underspeed opposing rotom leads, take a volt switch just to volt switch out of whatever comes in on it. But hey, if it works, it works.
I prefer to outspeed to do a lit kf damage to Other Rotom with Scarftom-H
It usually works cause I heavily damage their rotom/scarf it onto a non scarf set, but it just gets awakward when i trick a scarf onto another scarftom and then he tricks it back...
Hazard leads can be useful if you use the hazards as bait. Lead deoxys plus a competitive/defiant Pokemon tends to shut defog down. Nothing hurts more than realizing you made wigglytuff threatening. Bisharp and braviary are both solid defiant users and can wreck unprepared teams after a free plus 2 boost to their attack.
If I feel trollish though, I sometimes just lead with CB Garchomp and Outrage the fuck outa that bitch.
You will probably get more mileage out of that if you remove his counters first.
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