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Knock Off
- Thread starter Raseri
- Start date
Ill give my two cents on what is probably my favourite move this gen. Honestly in my opinion knock off is broken it turns previously manageable threats into monsters. It destroys my favourite item to use in lc the eviolite and really takes away the option of stall and many playstyles. That being said i really enjoy using this item myself especially on pokemon such as the previously mentioned Pawniward or mienfoo. One poke i haven't seen talked about is my furry cat friend meowth. Now i know what your thinking oh god meowth you noob but i quite enjoy using him. Now getting that out of the way meowth makes a great user of knock off because its fast and is the only pokemon in lc that gets it taunt and u-turn. Not only this but its fake out can come in and help it out a lot. Knock off turns it into a great utility poke and a great scout. Overall i believe knock off is broken and the best move in the metagame but i love using it myself. Thank you for reading this and have a nice day
Goddess Briyella I'm going to build a team around Ledyba. Expect a super high ladder ranking soon :)
Honestly, if you're running a team in xy without at least one mon carrying Knock Off, it probably isn't going to be that successful in the long run. Knock Off is just that good. Every single mon in Little Cup relies on its item, whether it be Eviolite, Berry Juice, Life Orb, or Choice Scarf. Now, you may be thinking that Swirlix can come in and net the Unburden boost that Knock Off provides, and this is true. However, Swirlix honestly isn't that threatening without a few Calm Mind boosts or a Belly Drum. You might lose the mon that Knocked Off Swirlix, but that's a fair trade in my opinion to mitigating one of the most dangerous sweepers in the tier. Plus, if you follow my advice you should carry more than one user of Knock Off, so you don't even lose that much.
Basically, Knock Off is amazing, and you should carry at least one user of it on your team if not more.
Edit: I tried Ledyba and it was the worst experience of my life. Even with Encore and Knock Off it's complete dead weight that should never ever be considered for a team.
Honestly, if you're running a team in xy without at least one mon carrying Knock Off, it probably isn't going to be that successful in the long run. Knock Off is just that good. Every single mon in Little Cup relies on its item, whether it be Eviolite, Berry Juice, Life Orb, or Choice Scarf. Now, you may be thinking that Swirlix can come in and net the Unburden boost that Knock Off provides, and this is true. However, Swirlix honestly isn't that threatening without a few Calm Mind boosts or a Belly Drum. You might lose the mon that Knocked Off Swirlix, but that's a fair trade in my opinion to mitigating one of the most dangerous sweepers in the tier. Plus, if you follow my advice you should carry more than one user of Knock Off, so you don't even lose that much.
Basically, Knock Off is amazing, and you should carry at least one user of it on your team if not more.
Edit: I tried Ledyba and it was the worst experience of my life. Even with Encore and Knock Off it's complete dead weight that should never ever be considered for a team.
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So I would say the metagame is it quite an interesting point in regards to Knock Off right now due to the fact that Ghost-types can no longer hard counter Mienfoo and co. but Meditite still has its same set of counters.
Meditite not getting Knock Off is causing me a lot of hassle during teambuilding. What do I mean by that? Having an answer on your team for every Fighting-type right now is really stinking hard. Sure, it's not the metagame in Gen V just after the bans of carvanha / tite / missy / gligar but before missy, gligar, and krow were unbanned in which the game literally came down to keeping your mienfoo or timburr alive while wearing the other scraggy down, but in this metagame, fighting-types are a hassle. Knock Off, contrary to what people are saying, actually wrecks Swirlix in that Swirlix cannot expect to sweep early and thus needs to save its Berry Juice. If Spritzee wants to act as anything other than a mere Mienfoo and Croagunk check, it similarly needs its Eviolite. So there's how Fairy-types get annoyed by Knock Off. Then we get to the fact that Mienfoo and co. now have stronger options against Misdreavus and Gastly. These are no longer even close to viable switch-ins unless you're running something like 17 Speed max defense Eviolite Misdreavus, and even then, the best you can hope to do is switch-in to Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp Mienfoo or whatever at the cost of your life. This makes defensive Gligar (which indeed seems to be a set on the rise) seem like more of an option, but defensive Gligar cannot switch into Meditite as virtually all of them are (or should be) carrying Ice Punch. In other words, Meditite requires this somewhat niche set of counters (Honedge, Misdreavus, Koffing if it lacks ZH or Psycho Cut) while all of the other Fighting-types have this other set of counters (defensive Gligar, idk like rest sleep talk Grimer, Yanma to an extent, defensive Tangela, Growlithe; none of them actually appreciate knock off).
I guess my question is how are you guys handling Fighting-types right now? Does Meditite need to be treated as a separate threat from Mienfoo, Scraggy, and Croagunk? Is running a Meditite counter a liability if the other team uses these other Fighting-types?
Meditite not getting Knock Off is causing me a lot of hassle during teambuilding. What do I mean by that? Having an answer on your team for every Fighting-type right now is really stinking hard. Sure, it's not the metagame in Gen V just after the bans of carvanha / tite / missy / gligar but before missy, gligar, and krow were unbanned in which the game literally came down to keeping your mienfoo or timburr alive while wearing the other scraggy down, but in this metagame, fighting-types are a hassle. Knock Off, contrary to what people are saying, actually wrecks Swirlix in that Swirlix cannot expect to sweep early and thus needs to save its Berry Juice. If Spritzee wants to act as anything other than a mere Mienfoo and Croagunk check, it similarly needs its Eviolite. So there's how Fairy-types get annoyed by Knock Off. Then we get to the fact that Mienfoo and co. now have stronger options against Misdreavus and Gastly. These are no longer even close to viable switch-ins unless you're running something like 17 Speed max defense Eviolite Misdreavus, and even then, the best you can hope to do is switch-in to Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp Mienfoo or whatever at the cost of your life. This makes defensive Gligar (which indeed seems to be a set on the rise) seem like more of an option, but defensive Gligar cannot switch into Meditite as virtually all of them are (or should be) carrying Ice Punch. In other words, Meditite requires this somewhat niche set of counters (Honedge, Misdreavus, Koffing if it lacks ZH or Psycho Cut) while all of the other Fighting-types have this other set of counters (defensive Gligar, idk like rest sleep talk Grimer, Yanma to an extent, defensive Tangela, Growlithe; none of them actually appreciate knock off).
I guess my question is how are you guys handling Fighting-types right now? Does Meditite need to be treated as a separate threat from Mienfoo, Scraggy, and Croagunk? Is running a Meditite counter a liability if the other team uses these other Fighting-types?
Ray Jay hit the nail right on the head, in my opinion. I feel like Gen V's premier fighting types (Mienfoo, Timburr, Croagunk and Scraggy) have changed roles, and taken more of a supporting role, and Knock Off has certainly been a big factor in this. Because all fighting types want to run Knock off, a sweeping set is usually the lesser preferred version The addition of Gligar and Spritzee has contributed to this change as well, as Fighting-types have two more very solid switches.
On the other hand, there is Meditite, who hits like a cannon straight from the start. Meditite is the kind of mon that pretty much forces us to run Slowpoke or Honedge to counter it.
tl;dr you absolutely NEED to prepare for meditite, but other fighting types are like gen V gunk, support and prio n shite
kinda rushed this post sry
On the other hand, there is Meditite, who hits like a cannon straight from the start. Meditite is the kind of mon that pretty much forces us to run Slowpoke or Honedge to counter it.
tl;dr you absolutely NEED to prepare for meditite, but other fighting types are like gen V gunk, support and prio n shite
kinda rushed this post sry
Thank god meditite doesnt get knock off or it would be really broken with its best checks honedge and slowpoke being ohko'd it would be really broken. Theorymonning aside you guys did nail it right on the money with fighting types such as mienfoo and timburr not being the top offensive threats anymore they can wreack havoc as support roles now with timburr being the best revenge killer in the game now with knock off+ mach punch and mienfoo being able to do well defensively with eviolite+knock off +fighting move or with scarf makes sure ghosts cant check them anymore. I said it once and ill say it again I believe knock off is slightly broken this gen and is making some threats too powerful. Honestly i believe sneasel wouldnt have been quickbanned without it and that it makes many things too powerful
I understand that items like Eviolite, Berry Juice etc. are super important in LC, which is why lots of people are saying Knock Off is so good but, in my experience, Shellos is a big problem for most of the threats that like to spam it. A fully defensive one, in most cases, seemed to be able to stall well enough and grab a burn with Scald. If anyone knows of any poke with Knock Off I'm not taking into consideration vs. Shellos let me know, I'd be interested to discuss!
I would say Croagunk because of Dry Skin and all that but you never know if the opponent is crazy enough to use offensive LO Shellos with Earth Power, but that's the best I could come up with.. (Except something like Water Veil Goldeen (which has a better ability, Swift Swim))
Yeah perhaps! Although Yawn could always take the place of Toxic on a Shellos set to force them out and get a free Scald on whatever comes in.
Yeah that's an issue as well
shellos doesn't have room for anything anymore
scald is stab and has 100% burn rate
recover is recover
ice beam is needed so you can actually beat gligar (shellos is the only gligar counter in the tier and like 50% of the reason shellos is ever run is to kill gligar) (0 SpA Shellos Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 24-32 (104.3 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
clear smog is amazing
all of these moves are pretty much non-negotiable, especially compared to stuff like earth power and yawn
scald is stab and has 100% burn rate
recover is recover
ice beam is needed so you can actually beat gligar (shellos is the only gligar counter in the tier and like 50% of the reason shellos is ever run is to kill gligar) (0 SpA Shellos Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 24-32 (104.3 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
clear smog is amazing
all of these moves are pretty much non-negotiable, especially compared to stuff like earth power and yawn
i know it's tempting to spam knock off every turn, but unless you're pawniard, it's generally not the best idea after the first use.
i've found the best way to take advantage of knock off to the fullest is pair the pokemon that has knock off with a pokemon that can get past a certain counter that the knock off pokemon lures in. for example, mienfoo and sd gligar (no knock off). both are walled by slowpoke. mienfoo naturally lures slowpoke in which it can take advantage of by knocking off slowpoke, and now gligar can ohko slowpoke at +2 after sr, or 2hko it on the switch. this strategy works very well for dealing with spritzee, as with eviolite, spritzee avoids the 2hko from pretty much anything unboosted / SE, but it's incredibly easy to knock off because some of the main things it wants to counter carry knock off.
some examples of pokemon that are easy to knock off with certain knock off users:
mienfoo - slowpoke, foongus, spritzee, croagunk
timburr - slowpoke, foongus, spritzee, croagunk
pawniard - mienfoo, timburr, ponyta, croagunk
gligar - porygon, archen, bronzor
(obviously there are a lot more good knock off pokemon, and more pokemon that are easy to knock of; these are just examples)
keeping that in mind, how do you guys deal with knock off. be specific about which knock off pokemon you're talking about; unless the pokemon is shellos, it probably can't beat every single knock off pokemon.
i've found the best way to take advantage of knock off to the fullest is pair the pokemon that has knock off with a pokemon that can get past a certain counter that the knock off pokemon lures in. for example, mienfoo and sd gligar (no knock off). both are walled by slowpoke. mienfoo naturally lures slowpoke in which it can take advantage of by knocking off slowpoke, and now gligar can ohko slowpoke at +2 after sr, or 2hko it on the switch. this strategy works very well for dealing with spritzee, as with eviolite, spritzee avoids the 2hko from pretty much anything unboosted / SE, but it's incredibly easy to knock off because some of the main things it wants to counter carry knock off.
some examples of pokemon that are easy to knock off with certain knock off users:
mienfoo - slowpoke, foongus, spritzee, croagunk
timburr - slowpoke, foongus, spritzee, croagunk
pawniard - mienfoo, timburr, ponyta, croagunk
gligar - porygon, archen, bronzor
(obviously there are a lot more good knock off pokemon, and more pokemon that are easy to knock of; these are just examples)
keeping that in mind, how do you guys deal with knock off. be specific about which knock off pokemon you're talking about; unless the pokemon is shellos, it probably can't beat every single knock off pokemon.
Who willingly sends in Slowpoke on Mienfoo, knowing you're going to take a Knock Off and U Turn to the face, leaving Slowpoke at like 30%?
The best thing to fodder as a Knock Off taker is Mienfoo. Regenerator on a mon with U Turn speaks for itself. Pivot to it constantly, predict the Iron Heads after it loses Eviolite to Pawniard. You could even get creative and use itemless Roost Gligar to deal with Knock Off, the only Knock Off abuser that threatens it really is Ice Punch Timburr.
Knock Off Vullaby seems like it would work really well. I might run it on my Ledyba in LCUU for the lulz.
If I am using Spritzee (especially with Calm Mind) I always have Grimer with me. It's pretty obvious that Mienfoo will use Knock Off and just U-turn on Spritzee, and there are a lot of Meditite + Mienfoo combos out there which means I can't use Spritzee for BOTH Meditite and Mienfoo. Instead, I use Grimer for Mienfoo and Spritzee for Meditite. Grimer is just an all around good pokemon right now since a lot of things that carry Knock Off is beaten by Grimer like Mienfoo, Timburr, Croagunk, and Vullaby. You can even be hipster and use Power Up Punch for the obvious Pawniard switch in (or Fire Punch, but be honest PuP is way more fun). It even has Ice Punch for Gligar (Grimer can beat Gligar that come in on Gunk Shot with Ice Punch as Earthquake doesn't OHKO).
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That probably would not work out very well as knock off still deals a ton of damage and will probably cripple it not to mention that besides fighting types the most common knock off user is pawniward who resists acrobatics and can easilly destroy you.
On a nother note i found the best counter to all knock off fighting types but not pawniward and that is wynaut who fails to be 2hko'd by any of them and can trap and ko them back with counter.
This is probably not optimal (relative competitive n00b here!), but to combat Knock Off users, I've been using a defensive Sticky Hold Shellos with: Acid Armor, Amnesia, Recover, Scald. Once it gets one or two each of the defense-boosting moves off, plus some Recovers, a lot of things have a hard time denting it. With a couple points invested in Sp.Atk as well, Scald still does decent damage and has a chance for burn, potentially lessening enemy damage even further. I have had more than a couple people ragequit on me since I started using it.
So far the only things it really seems to have a problem with are 1) critical hits, and 2) Toxic. For the Toxic problem, I try to mitigate by having Heal Bell on another team member. For the crits... Well, that's just hax for ya. Not much you can do if the opponent gets lucky. You'd think Dry Skin Croagunk would be a problem, but surprisingly, I really have not seen many lately, so it hasn't been an issue. If that does come up, I imagine it would force a switch, but I really wouldn't want to give up either of those defense-boosting moves for another coverage move, so... ??? Strategy I guess would be to try and take out anything you suspect might have Dry Skin/Storm Drain/Water Absorb before bringing out Shellos.
So far the only things it really seems to have a problem with are 1) critical hits, and 2) Toxic. For the Toxic problem, I try to mitigate by having Heal Bell on another team member. For the crits... Well, that's just hax for ya. Not much you can do if the opponent gets lucky. You'd think Dry Skin Croagunk would be a problem, but surprisingly, I really have not seen many lately, so it hasn't been an issue. If that does come up, I imagine it would force a switch, but I really wouldn't want to give up either of those defense-boosting moves for another coverage move, so... ??? Strategy I guess would be to try and take out anything you suspect might have Dry Skin/Storm Drain/Water Absorb before bringing out Shellos.
Knock Off Pawniard is a holy terror, agreed. Something almost every LC team needs to be mindful of at this point, methinks.
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
Screw knok off it makes slowpoke cri :@
No but for real knock off has suddenly taken the metagame by storm, and has made mons dedicated to walling more of a liability than a lifeline. O, you wanna have your fighters beat bulky misdreavus? Here, give [insert mienfoo, timber, or gunk here] knock off. A super powerful 65 or 97.5 BP Dark move is the thing for you! Make bulky misdreavus obsolete by knocking off it's eviolite. Foongus giving you problems as well? No problem, knock off has you. It's just so debilitating I don't like it STAHP :@
Stop slowpoke abuse
No but for real knock off has suddenly taken the metagame by storm, and has made mons dedicated to walling more of a liability than a lifeline. O, you wanna have your fighters beat bulky misdreavus? Here, give [insert mienfoo, timber, or gunk here] knock off. A super powerful 65 or 97.5 BP Dark move is the thing for you! Make bulky misdreavus obsolete by knocking off it's eviolite. Foongus giving you problems as well? No problem, knock off has you. It's just so debilitating I don't like it STAHP :@
Stop slowpoke abuse
I think you could add Aipom has a knock off user. Why ? Because he simply destructs misdreavus with it, with good anticipation and his brilliant speed.
Aipom sucks. user Corkscrew knows what I'm talking about
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
I've ran something similar. Why not just use stockpile instead of both acid armor and amnesia? Then you can have room for a coverage move. (I personally prefer toxic stalling and using earth power has its only attack move to hit SE on the poison and steels immune to toxic.)