Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Wobbyble]

Pancham: Fine in C-rank. It's used as a support Pokemon more than an offensive one, and it's a great pivot for offensive teams because of Parting Shot and its bulk and typing.

Carvanha: I'm on the fence about, leaning more towards against moving it up. It's definitely at least an A+ Pokemon, but I don't really see it as S-rank. Most of the common bulky walls and pivots in the tier handle it really well, and I just don't quite see it on the same level as other S-rank Pokemon. Gligar and Swirlix can easily sweep through opposing teams, and Murkrow is bar none the best wallbreaker in the tier. In my eyes, Carvanha isn't as effective as any of these Pokemon.

Machop: Just screams "why?" to me. Other than Dynamic Punch, I would literally never want to use it over other Fighting-types in LC, and Dynamic Punch isn't enough to fit in C-rank.

Cottonee: Fine in C-rank. Prankster Encore and walling Carvanha are both good niches, but let's not be overly generous here. Cottonee is not nearly as easy to slap onto any old team as any of the other defensive Pokemon in B-rank are except for maybe Tyrunt. Prankster Encore also can only go so far. If you mispredict against a setup sweeper, you might very well lose, and it's frankly quite predictable when it comes in on a setup sweeper that it will either be using Stun Spore or Encore, depending on the situation.

Archen: I'm ok with moving Archen down to B-rank. It's really good, but I'll agree that it's not quite as reliable of an answer to the things it's supposed to check as you'd always like it to be.

Wynaut: Fit for C-rank. It doesn't check any Fighting-types well except for Meditite, and while checking Meditite is fantastic, it's not enough to push it to B-rank in my opinion. I've tried it out a few times, and it's just really hard for it to come in and do its job.

Aipom: Trash.

Grimer: I am willing to move Grimer to C-rank, but absolutely not B-rank. Gligar handles it disgusting well. It's not really anti-meta when Gligar is the meta. You can say "oh but Ice Punch!" but we all know how that works out in practice. You're rarely going to catch a competent player switching Gligar into something that knows Ice Punch because if it learns it and has no other way to touch Gligar, it will be running it. Also in the replay that was linked where Grimer was "proven" to be "good", all it did until the end of the game was repeatedly switch into Foongus and Timburr. Walling Foongus is hardly an impressive quality, and walling Timburr isn't that difficult with shit like Spritzee and Swirlix all over. The calcs against Belly Drum Swirlix are wholly unimpressive because Grimer has to be near full HP in order to tank a hit. Things get worse when you realize that it has no reliable recovery. This means that unless you're willing to dedicate Grimer to checking solely Swirlix (which you shouldn't set up with Swirlix when the opponent still has a full HP Grimer anyways), then it can't actually win.

Timburr: Probably never going to drop ever. It's so solid at what it does. It's way bulkier than Mienfoo, which makes up for the lack of Regenerator. It has Mach Punch and Ice Punch to allow it to pick off weakened stuff, take on frailer Pokemon weak to Fighting without worrying about dying before it gets a chance to attack, and take on Gligar one-on-one. Probably the only real issue with it is that it gives a free switch to Swirlix, but this is somewhat remedied by Knock Off, which keeps Belly Drum sets from being nearly impossible to revenge kill.

Zigzagoon: C-rank sounds good.

Mantyke: I feel like Mantyke is perfect for B-rank, but I honestly cannot refute any of the arguments Nozzle brought up. I'm going to leave it for now, but I'd like to see more discussion on it.

Koffing: I've never used Koffing, and I honestly don't think I've ever even seen one this gen in the hundreds of LC games I've played. No strong opinion on it.

SO! With all of that out of the way, here are the changes I'm doing right now:

A-rank -> B-rank

D-rank -> C-rank

Added to C-rank

B-rank -> C-rank

B-rank -> C-rank

Proposed changes that are remaining the same:

Remaining in C-rank

Remaining in D-rank

Remaining in C-rank

Remaining in C-rank

Remaining in E-rank

Remaining in A-rank

Proposed changes that need more discussion

S-rank or A-rank?

A-rank or B-rank?

B-rank or C-rank?

And finally, a couple of my own nominations.

Pawniard should drop down to A-rank. It's undoubtedly a huge presence in the metagame and something that every team should be prepared for, but as time has passed, I've seen the metagame slowly adapt more and more towards handling it well. Bulky Fighting-types are on nearly every single team right now, offense or otherwise. Timburr, Croagunk, Mienfoo, Meditite to an extent (lives any one hit and scores an OHKO), as well as more obscure ones such as Pancham, Riolu, and evidently Machop. Bulky Water-types can also take it on decently well, with a special mention going out to my nigga Corphish. Snover has begun to run HP Fighting just to destroy it on the switch. Gligar might not counter it, but it definitely gives Pawniard a tough time. Bulky Fire-types also handle it pretty well, with Ponyta and Larvesta being the most obvious ones thanks to Flame Body. I doubt that any of us will deny that there was a time when Pawniard was an easy fit in S-rank, but the metagame has adapted well around it, enough to drop it from its throne down to A-rank, where it will probably continue to reside for the rest of the generation.

Almost as though it's taking over for Pawniard, I believe that Meditite should be moved up to S-rank. It's such a stupid fucking Pokemon, and I hate it so much. Classic Drain Punch / Ice Punch / Fake Out / Bullet Punch Meditite is the single best counter to offensive Swirlix, both Belly Drum and Calm Mind. Being able to take out the scariest LC sweeper without even batting an eye is incredible, but this set is still somewhat inferior to what it could be running because so many different things wall it. Slowpoke bodies it. Spritzee takes like 30% from Bullet Punch. Larvesta doesn't care about it at all. Eviolite Misdreavus can readily switch in and either burn or KO it. But when you give it Zen Headbutt, Larvesta is OHKOed after Stealth Rock and 2HKOed without it, Misdreavus is 2HKOed (with an 81% chance to OHKO Berry Juice sets after Stealth Rock!), and Spritzee, well, still checks it well because it takes like 40%, but 2HKOed with just a little bit of prior damage! Slowpoke obviously still walls it, but you can run Thunder Punch for it as well. This is all just plain old Eviolite Meditite as well. Life Orb Meditite is absolutely destructive, and it can even muscle through Slowpoke without Thunder Punch.

196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 10-13 (35.7 - 46.4%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

:O

There is nothing that outright counters Meditite because what beats one set loses to another. It's a huge force to be reckoned within LC, and unlike Pawniard, is worthy of a seat in S-rank.

Some Wynaut calcs

Hide

236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 20-26 (68.9 - 89.6%)
236 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 26-32 (89.6 - 110.3%)
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 18-22 (62 - 75.8%)
+2 236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 25-30 (86.2 - 103.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 236 Atk Gligar Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 25-31 (86.2 - 106.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

You can easily get a kill on something like Meditite, Foongus, Slowpoke, etc and keep yourself at 90%+ after Berry Juice, staying healthy enough to still pose a threat to Pawaniard, Timburr, Mienfoo, Gligar, etc. It's deceptively physically bulky even without an Eviolite, and I honestly don't think you're giving Wynaut enough credit for what it's good for. Pair it with 2-3+ VoltTurners and you'll have 0 issues switching Wynaut in on threats that you wish to eliminate. Wynaut needs teammates that synergize well with it to truly shine (i.e. things like VoltTurn, set up sweepers, Gligar, etc). I remain adamant that Wynaut deserves B rank, and I encourage people to try the Max HP/Max Defense set with Mirror/Counter/Encore/Safeguard set, it really works wonders on the right team.

I'm in agreement for Pawniard moving to A. People (should have) become accustomed by now to dealing with Knock Off and Pawniard's natural bulk and offensive powers. Although I'm still a dumbass and occasionally try to Memento it, it's really not as threatening as people once saw it. Things like a bulky Mienfoo, which I'm seeing a lot of lately, force Pawnaird players to have to predict with every single move they make, which causes Pawniard to be less effective than it should be because it prevents Pawniard from spamming Knock Off. Other things like Shellos, bulky Gligar, Timburr, etc all deal with Pawniard relatively well, and make Pawniard definitely an A rank mon.

Meditite should stay in A for now, so long as Gligar is in this meta. The instant Gligar leaves, and the instant Meditite no longer needs to run Ice Punch, I feel like this little fucker is going straight to S rank and the top of the suspect priority list. The fact that one of the most common mons in the meta completely craps on any Meditite set not running Ice Punch... Well it limits Meditite a fair bit. If you run Ice Punch, then Slowpoke walls Meditite quite hard, which is why the infamous Gligar-Slowpoke core has arisen from the bans of Yanma and Tangela. The Life Orb set excels at wall breaking, and revenging set up sweepers. However, you need Fake Out to properly revenge, as well as more than 2 coverage moves to properly wall break, forcing you to decide between the two. Its best wallbreaking move, High Jump Kick, also will lose you the game if you ever mis-predict on a Ghost type, a Protect, or if it misses, making it an extremely inconsistent move that will both singlehandedly win you games, as well as lose them. So long as Gligar is here, forcing you to run Ice Punch if you want to have any hopes of killing it, Meditite's power is kept in check, but I will agree with you for moving it to S rank once Gligar is gone (which it better fucking be after suspects).
Oh yeah, and also... LO Meditite 3HKOs Elgyem and Yamask (Mummy op lol). Obviously Yamask isn't viable and neither is Elgyem thanks to Knock Off, but for arguments sake, Eglyem is always here if LO Meditite ever does get popular :3
196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Elgyem: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO


Carvanha should remain A for reasons I expressed in my last post, mainly due to being far to frail to switch in on anything, Cottonee, Croagunk, Timburr, not even being able to OHKO Slowpoke who can paralyze it back, etc etc. It's almost guaranteed 1 for 1 trade at worst if you play it right with Destiny Bond and obviously it can clean up late game, but it requires far too meticulous play to ever pull that off to be S rank imo.

Mantyke definitely B rank... Even with Rain up, Mantyke posses very little wall breaking capability. Not to mention, you actually have to spend a turn setting up Rain, which lasts a limited time. I'm not sure if Nozzle was using LO or BJ or Eviolite or what, but for the sake of showing how limited its killing capabilities are, I'll be using LO.

Hide

196+ SpA Life Orb Mantyke Hydro Pump vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Rain: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ SpA Life Orb Mantyke Air Slash vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ SpA Life Orb Mantyke Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Rain: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%)
200+ SpA Life Orb Mantyke Hidden Power Grass vs. 196 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-16 (46.4 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

 

[Shouting]

Also you guys using Poison Jab on Grimer are doing it wrong... use Gunk Shot. Gunk Shot actually makes Grimer do a lot of damage. A 120 BP (40 BP more than PJab) STAB move with 30% chance to poison is no joke, and its accuracy only goes down by -20%. For reference, people use Hydro Pump over Surf even though it's only 20 BP more than Surf. </tangent>

You're right, having used both PJ and GS I think Gunk Shot is much better. However what keeps me from using it is Swirlx. I prefer not to rely on 80% accuracy to beat it because if it doesn't hit then by that time it's pretty much over. Posion Jab won't always OHKO, but if it doesn't Shadow Sneak will.

Grimer: I am willing to move Grimer to C-rank, but absolutely not B-rank. Gligar handles it disgusting well. It's not really anti-meta when Gligar is the meta. You can say "oh but Ice Punch!" but we all know how that works out in practice. You're rarely going to catch a competent player switching Gligar into something that knows Ice Punch because if it learns it and has no other way to touch Gligar, it will be running it. Also in the replay that was linked where Grimer was "proven" to be "good", all it did until the end of the game was repeatedly switch into Foongus and Timburr. Walling Foongus is hardly an impressive quality, and walling Timburr isn't that difficult with shit like Spritzee and Swirlix all over. The calcs against Belly Drum Swirlix are wholly unimpressive because Grimer has to be near full HP in order to tank a hit. Things get worse when you realize that it has no reliable recovery. This means that unless you're willing to dedicate Grimer to checking solely Swirlix (which you shouldn't set up with Swirlix when the opponent still has a full HP Grimer anyways), then it can't actually win.

I've hit many Gligar on the switch with Ice Punch, it's really not that hard considering if you switch in on something like Mienfoo, it really can't touch you to begin with so there really isn't any risk to Ice Punching. Between Poison STAB, Fire Punch, and Ice Punch, not much is safe since that combo has pretty good coverage, really only missing out on Rock types and the only common ones right now are Tirtouga, Archen, and Dweeble, but Archen will not like an Ice Punch.

Why was Grimer good in that Replay? It was good because it prevented me from getting hit with Knock Off. Spritzee needs eviolite, and because Calm Mind Spritzee is usually what sweeps, I cannot send Spritzee into Timburr because it will just lose it's eviolite. With no eviolite, CM Spritzee will be 2HKO'd by a lot of physical attacks. This is when Grimer comes into play. I will take on Fighting types with knock off so I don't lose the eviolite from Spritzee. Similarly, If there is a core of Mienfoo and Meditite on the other team, I cannot use Spritzee to switch into them both. Spritzee will lose the eviolite from Mienfoo and therefore Meditie will 2HKO. Grimer will switch into Mienfoo and Spritzee will be able to check Meditite. That support is pretty invaluable, and not using Grimer because "better Timburr / Fighting type checks exist" really doesn't apply since the only other pokemon can do this in LC are Shellos (which I would rather use for something else, like Gligar) or Trubbish, which doesn't pack as much of a punch (and will be KO'd by +6 Return).

As for the BD calc being "unimpressive," PLEASE tell me one thing in LC that can take a +6 attack from Swirlx and not be in good health. That really isn't a downfall of Grimer, it just shows how ridiculous BD Swirlx is. The fact that it even lives +6 Return is amazing and only like 3 other pokemon come to mind: Skrelp, Koffing, (prone to Knock Off, it MUST have Sludge Bomb because Clear Smog won't KO) and Aron. All of these pretty much need to be healthy in order to live a hit (none of them have recovery, in fact Aron and Skrelp don't even have pain split)

Grimer may not have immediate recovery, but it will still last a pretty long time. I mean in the replay Grimer lived until pretty much the end of the match. Mienfoo and Foongus both have regenerator which means you'll be getting some good HP out of them. Yes, it isn't perfect, but it will get the job done. There is always Wish support also.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Ok, please tell me what dratini is doing in c-rank. I have honestly never seen any good players use this thing in gen 6 and I honestly don't see what puts it at c-rank. I think it should be moved down to d, as it has literally done almost nothing in this meta. I can see uses for all the other pokemon in c-rank but this one. If not agreeing with me, please tell me what this thing does bar a weak scrafty that gets easily walled by prominent threats

 

[Morty]

So, it;s probably been said based on the conversations in lc, but meditite and pawniard should really switch. Few top 3 most broken lists people give don't have some ordering of gligar, swirlex and meditite. Nothing counters him, he 2hkos everything except larvesta, who in the current metagame probably deserves A rank for being the best answer to Meditite. Meditite 2hkos misdreavus and even takes a shadowball.

Pawniard just doesn't have sweeping potential or defences to justify being S rank whilst also being 4x fight weak in this metagame.

Meditite S
Larvesta A
Pawniard A

 

[Rowan]

OMG Larvesta isn't A???? Fuck that. this guy is a fantastic switch in to all fighting-types... although meditite can 2HKO with zenbutt, it still risks a burn so most players will not like Meditite hitting it. It's a fantastic deterrent for all physical attackers and you can even potentially burn something whilst sacking it. It has good physical defense so it's really not that hard to switch in with defog/spin support. But what really makes larvesta shine is STAB u-turn which deals tonnes of damage to incoming Slowpoke, Chinchou and Staryu. Anything that can be switch in to take a U-turn, just takes a massive chuck from Flare Blitz. Seriously, flare blitz coming of 19 Atk is so powerful it's unreal, and also has a burn chance.
Basically it can spend early game hitting switch-ins with will-o-wisp then mid game hitting hard with Uturn and flare blitz. passive damage from burn also helps it 2hko really bulky stuff like spritzee and porygon.

 

[Ashley11]

I agree with this. Larvesta is known well for burning physical attackers with flame body+Will-o-wisp, and then recovering with morning sun. The really neat thing about this though, is that it is not only a great physical attacker counter, but a very powerful pokemon as well. Flare blitz gets 2 hit ko's on a bunch of pokemon, and U-turn is great for momentum. Larvesta is very good on many teams, on stall it can be a utility to burn pokemon, and on offense it can do the same as a bulky pivot. As long as you have defog or rapid spin, Larvesta will be fine. you may say that is is B-rank because of it's stealth rock weakness, but i disagree. Defog and Rapid Spin is easy to pack on a pokemon, there is gligar, staryu, drilbur, vullaby, etc. And that is the only support it needs to be successful at what it does best. being a physical tank.

Calcs:
236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

236+ Atk Larvesta U-turn vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 14-18 (50 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

With a bit of hazards, Larvesta breaks through potent physical walls in the metagame.

 

[Rowan]

not to mention that with passive damage from burn, it can 2hko stuff like hippo/porygon/spritzee easily

 

[Wobbyble]

236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

The hell, lol, that's an awful Hippo spread.

I don't have any issues with Larvesta to A, but I better see Ponyta going to A with it!
Ponyta is on the same level of competitiveness as Larvesta, mainly because it has higher speed which let's it WoW things BEFORE it gets hit which is crucial when dealing with things like Pawniard and Larvesta. Obviously it doesn't get the Fighting type resist that Larvesta gets, so its not as great at dealing with Timburr, but Ponyta deals with Pawniard far better, and some Meditites as well. Against Eviolite Meditite, Ponyta can Morning Sun off Drain Punch until it gets burned (Jolly does 12 damage, same as Morning Sun heals). For LO Meditite, Ponyta takes a slightly harder hit obviously, being unable to heal off Drain Punch while stalling for a burn, but what Ponyta CAN do it outspeed and WoW/Flare Blitz it, which is something Larvesta CANNOT do. Ponyta is also not weak to Flying, doesn't get murdered by HP Rock as hard, and can speed tie other 19s.

Snover and Dwebble should be moved to B rank.
Snover wasn't even great at dealing with Sand due to Pursuit trappers, but it seems like not a lot of people had the intelligence to run them on Sand teams, and somehow Snover has kept its A rank from last generation despite the fact that relevant Sand teams no longer even exist. Blizzard coming off of 15 SpA fails to 2HKO many of the most common mons, like Mienfoo, Timburr, Spritzee, Porygon, etc. HP Rock/Fighting alone do not cover all of common walls to Snover. Larvesta, Ponyta, Pawniard, and Magnemite all wall Snover hard if it's running the other Hidden Power. With it's main role of dealing with Sand being irrelevant, and the fact that there are an enormity of better revenge killers than Snover at the moment, I honestly do not think that Snover is deserving of the high spot of A rank that is "Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier."

Dwebble... How the fuck did it even make it to A tier?? Obviously it's amazing if you get down SR and 1-2 layers of Spikes before dying, but it's a complete joke to remove its hazards with Defog, meaning you're almost playing a 5 vs 6 if the enemy team uses Defog. Also, its Shell Smash set is GROSSLY outclassed by Tirtouga. It gets Knock Off which is nice, but that's really about all of its positive points. Sturdy Juice obviously makes it pretty nifty, but if you compare its usefulness to things like Tirtouga, Ferroseed, Spritzee, Vullaby, or any other A ranked mon, its usefulness in comparison is trash. It's still a B tier mon with a niche if you're willing to take the risk of running into Defoggers, or if you just for some reason, don't want to use Tirtouga for sweeping.

Drilbur and Frillish need to move down to C rank.
With the removal of permanent Sand, Drilbur has lost its niche as a Sand Rush monster. It's only hope lied in its amazing ability to run both Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin, as well as being able to hit Misdreavus with strong Earthquakes. However, Generation 6 even took that away, blessing this metagame with Defog and as of now, Gligar, who takes Rock Slide from Drilbur like how Walrein takes Ice Beams. The addition of Defog hurt both Drilbur's viability as a Stealth Rocker AND a Rapin Spinner. His Stealth Rocks are now easily removed, and for people looking to keep hazards away, they often look to easy Defogs instead. Natu isn't even used anymore, which was another one of Drilbur's great uses, being able to SR on Magic Bounce. Drilbur lost its sweeping power and its niche of a SR setter and Spinner has been weakened enormously by Defog, and is no longer a B tier mon.

Frillish has never been an amazing mon, having always had a less than average typing for Little Cup. But with this generation and a 98 Base Power Knock Off, Frillish has gotten shit on every game I've seen it used in. Uninvested Mienfoo can 2HKO Frillish, if that puts it into perspective. Frillish cannot check or counter any of this metagame's main threats losing to Gligar, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Pawniard, Carvanha, Magnemite, Swirlix, Corphish, etc. Not even the buff to WoW, one of Frillish's main tools, can keep it viable in this metagame. The buff to Knock Off and the way this metagame has evolved to favor certain mons puts Frillish at a solid C rank.

 

[atomicllamas]

Snover and Dwebble should be moved to B rank.
Snover wasn't even great at dealing with Sand due to Pursuit trappers, but it seems like not a lot of people had the intelligence to run them on Sand teams, and somehow Snover has kept its A rank from last generation despite the fact that relevant Sand teams no longer even exist. Blizzard coming off of 15 SpA fails to 2HKO many of the most common mons, like Mienfoo, Timburr, Spritzee, Porygon, etc. HP Rock/Fighting alone do not cover all of common walls to Snover. Larvesta, Ponyta, Pawniard, and Magnemite all wall Snover hard if it's running the other Hidden Power. With it's main role of dealing with Sand being irrelevant, and the fact that there are an enormity of better revenge killers than Snover at the moment, I honestly do not think that Snover is deserving of the high spot of A rank that is "Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier."

Dwebble... How the fuck did it even make it to A tier?? Obviously it's amazing if you get down SR and 1-2 layers of Spikes before dying, but it's a complete joke to remove its hazards with Defog, meaning you're almost playing a 5 vs 6 if the enemy team uses Defog. Also, its Shell Smash set is GROSSLY outclassed by Tirtouga. It gets Knock Off which is nice, but that's really about all of its positive points. Sturdy Juice obviously makes it pretty nifty, but if you compare its usefulness to things like Tirtouga, Ferroseed, Spritzee, Vullaby, or any other A ranked mon, its usefulness in comparison is trash. It's still a B tier mon with a niche if you're willing to take the risk of running into Defoggers, or if you just for some reason, don't want to use Tirtouga for sweeping.

I don't necessarily disagree with either of these proposals, but based on your description you aren't really using these mons to the best of their ability. First off, Dwebble should never, NEVER, run spikes, because it is such a bad move in LC, and as you pointed out, easily removed by defog. However, Dweble's main niche isn't as a suicide lead, it is best used as a sturdy smasher, as it has quite a few advantages over Tirtouga, such as a STAB move that can get through Slowpoke with ease, 15 speed with an adamant nature as opposed to turtle's 12 with a jolly nature (also adamant Dwebble has the same Attack as Jolly Tirt), and Rock Blast to beat opposing sturdy mons. The speed is especially significant, as it allows you to outspeed every scarfed pokemon in the tier (barring stupid shit like scarf elekid or voltorb), meaning that priority is your only option to revenge kill. That being said, it's typing is slightly worse than Tirt's for taking priority, and it doesn't have any priority of its own but it is still just way better off as a sturdy smasher than as a Hazards Lead (although SS / EQ / Rock Blast / SR is legit too!).

Snover on the other hand does have many of the flaws you mentioned, it has trouble getting passed bulky mons and Sand teams are way less common than they used to be. However Snover gained a huge niche on offensive teams in revenge killing Chlorophyll sweepers, because it is the only scarfer in the tier that can come in after they kill something, and revenge kill with a powerful attack. It may seem like Vulpix bait, but it forces Vulpix to take rocks damage if you can keep them up (and snover belongs on offensive teams that have the offensive presence to do so), and it can get significant damage on it with HP rock.

184 SpA Snover Hidden Power Rock vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Meaning that Vulpix can only switch into this once because it will die next time it switches into rocks (unless min roll) so it can't set up sun again. Snover also has the benefits of an Ice-type STAB in the Gligar meta, and is the only ice-type that can deal with Chinchou. And it still rekts sand :).

Anyways I am not sure if these should drop or remain as they do have flaws, and I don't really care :p

 

[chimp]

I know this has been discussed a lot already, but I still think Foongus deserves A rank. Regenerator, Spore, and the ability to check most A ranked threats (Carvanha, Chinchou, Dwebble, Magnemite, Mienfoo, Slowpoke, Spritzee, Timburr, Tirtouga, as well as the S-ranked Swirlix) at least warrants it for A tier.

 

[Holiday]

Lord I am so shitty at posting these kinda things so bear with me, but like Atomic said, dwebble has a few advantages over tirtouga. First, it's naturally faster than the turtle. Rock Blast obliterates other sturdymons. Lastly, it's so fucking cute it has a way of getting around one of the tier's premier walls, Slowpoke. While I certainly do think tirt is better than dwebble, it has enough differences to warrant it A Rank.

 

[Wobbyble]

Specifically why Dwebble is too shitty for A tier:

• Shitty coverage and weak attacks. At +2 it cannot OHKO Evioliteless Mienfoo, different than Tirtouga
• No priority and not strong enough attacks to clean up late game.
• It has no durability. You can easily play around Berry Juice, hitting it with something weak to break sturdy
• Defog makes its role as a hazard abuser much less impressive
• Weak to SR
• Did I mention it's still weak as hell at +2

It's outclassed so hard by Tirtouga as a Shell Smash sweeper. Literally the ONLY thing it does better is OHKO Slowpoke, and that's about it. +2 Dwebble will never beat Meditite, Mienfoo, or Timburr if it's lost Berry Juice or is not at full health, even if Timburr and Mienfoo have lost their Eviolites already. The lack of priority means its very prone to things like Sucker Punch from Pawniard and Murkrow. Bug Rock stab is also AWFUL coverage, seeing as X Scissors basically only hits Slowpoke. Compare this to Water Rock coverage, and you'll realize how shitty it is.

I personally feel that Dwebble belongs in C tier, but seeing as I have skewed views on things I'll settle for B tier. Right now this thing is placed WAY too high. If you feel like it belongs in A tier, you're probably playing against incompetent opponents.

Also, saying Snover can clear Sunny Day is pretty irrelevant as Vulpix isn't viable at the top of the ladder, nor is it viable when playing against other top players. Snover can deal with Sun, yes, but Sun is a low tier strategy that is extremely inconsistent and of little relevance to the actual metagame.

 

[atomicllamas]

Specifically why Dwebble is too shitty for A tier:

• Shitty coverage and weak attacks. At +2 it cannot OHKO Evioliteless Mienfoo, different than Tirtouga
• No priority and not strong enough attacks to clean up late game.
• It has no durability. You can easily play around Berry Juice, hitting it with something weak to break sturdy
• Defog makes its role as a hazard abuser much less impressive
• Weak to SR
• Did I mention it's still weak as hell at +2

It's outclassed so hard by Tirtouga as a Shell Smash sweeper. Literally the ONLY thing it does better is OHKO Slowpoke, and that's about it. +2 Dwebble will never beat Meditite, Mienfoo, or Timburr if it's lost Berry Juice or is not at full health, even if Timburr and Mienfoo have lost their Eviolites already. The lack of priority means its very prone to things like Sucker Punch from Pawniard and Murkrow. Bug Rock stab is also AWFUL coverage, seeing as X Scissors basically only hits Slowpoke. Compare this to Water Rock coverage, and you'll realize how shitty it is.

I personally feel that Dwebble belongs in C tier, but seeing as I have skewed views on things I'll settle for B tier. Right now this thing is placed WAY too high. If you feel like it belongs in A tier, you're probably playing against incompetent opponents.

Rock Blast + Earthquake (edge-quake @_@) has amazing coverage and X-Scissor is a nice STAB bonus that gets hits on one of the most important physical walls in LC (these three moves have perfect coverage in LC). Water-Rock misses out on Croagunk and Ferroseed which are both pretty relevant.

+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed with SR)

Idk how much bulk you run on Mienfoo, as both bulky and fast Mienfoo are viable, but if you are running a faster foo it will die, that being said, Mienfoo with Eviolite is beating both Tirtouga and Dwebble anyways. As does Timburr, Tirtouga's real advantage lies in the fact it has a better match up vs Meditite (which is pretty important I'll admit).

Its attacks are plenty strong enough to "clean up late game" unless you have a very different definition of late game.

While Berry Juice can be played around, it can be played around on every Pokemon that uses / abuses berry juice in pretty much the same way, and it may be less durable but unlike Tirtouga, it has an above average speed before a smash (and can't be outsped by scarfers at +2 unlike tirt who speed ties with base 16 scarfers, and loses to faster scarfers). This means, that while Dwebble may not have priority, it also is less reliant on priority to succeed in it's sweep.

Uhh what part about "Shell Smash" do you not get, if you are using Dwebble as a hazard setter it is your problem? Defoggers also make it easier for you to keep SR of the field, so if hazards aren't significant I don't get why you are bringing them up?

Also, saying Snover can clear Sunny Day is pretty irrelevant as Vulpix isn't viable at the top of the ladder, nor is it viable when playing against other top players. Snover can deal with Sun, yes, but Sun is a low tier strategy that is extremely inconsistent and of little relevance to the actual metagame.

Hate to break it to you but, "top of the ladder" is still relatively low level play, and if you believe sun "isn't viable" you have never played a well made sun team. While sun is somewhat match up dependent, it is also one of those things that you play, then realize you have nothing that stops it and you get destroyed. Don't get me wrong Snover should probably be B rank, as it can't switch into many (any?) of the Chloro sweepers, but saying sun "isn't viable" is stupid af.

 

[chimp]

Rock Blast + Earthquake (edge-quake @_@) has amazing coverage and X-Scissor is a nice STAB bonus that gets hits on one of the most important physical walls in LC (these three moves have perfect coverage in LC). Water-Rock misses out on Croagunk and Ferroseed which are both pretty relevant.

+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed with SR)

Idk how much bulk you run on Mienfoo, as both bulky and fast Mienfoo are viable, but if you are running a faster foo it will die, that being said, Mienfoo with Eviolite is beating both Tirtouga and Dwebble anyways. As does Timburr, Tirtouga's real advantage lies in the fact it has a better match up vs Meditite (which is pretty important I'll admit).

Its attacks are plenty strong enough to "clean up late game" unless you have a very different definition of late game.

While Berry Juice can be played around, it can be played around on every Pokemon that uses / abuses berry juice in pretty much the same way, and it may be less durable but unlike Tirtouga, it has an above average speed before a smash (and can't be outsped by scarfers at +2 unlike tirt who speed ties with base 16 scarfers, and loses to faster scarfers). This means, that while Dwebble may not have priority, it also is less reliant on priority to succeed in it's sweep.

Uhh what part about "Shell Smash" do you not get, if you are using Dwebble as a hazard setter it is your problem? Defoggers also make it easier for you to keep SR of the field, so if hazards aren't significant I don't get why you are bringing them up?



Hate to break it to you but, "top of the ladder" is still relatively low level play, and if you believe sun "isn't viable" you have never played a well made sun team. While sun is somewhat match up dependent, it is also one of those things that you play, then realize you have nothing that stops it and you get destroyed. Don't get me wrong Snover should probably be B rank, as it can't switch into many (any?) of the Chloro sweepers, but saying sun "isn't viable" is stupid af.

I don't think the argument is dwebble is weak, but that it is outclassed. A pokemon who is outclassed in nearly every scenario doesn't belong in A rank- just look at Snubbull, who'd probably be A if not for Spritzee. The same could be said for a lot of other pokemon: Amaura if not for Snover, Gastly if not for Misdreavus, Munchlax if not for Porygon. All those pokemon I just mentioned are good: but for some reason or another they just aren't as good as their A-ranked "counterparts." They still have every right to be used because they ARE good, just other pokemon do it better. Having Dwebble in the same tier as Tirtouga, who does the same job better (with a few small exceptions, like how Dweb can kill Slowpoke) just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[atomicllamas]

I don't think the argument is dwebble is weak, but that it is outclassed. A pokemon who is outclassed in nearly every scenario doesn't belong in A rank- just look at Snubbull, who'd probably be A if not for Spritzee. The same could be said for a lot of other pokemon: Amaura if not for Snover, Gastly if not for Misdreavus, Munchlax if not for Porygon. All those pokemon I just mentioned are good: but for some reason or another they just aren't as good as their A-ranked "counterparts." They still have every right to be used because they ARE good, just other pokemon do it better. Having Dwebble in the same tier as Tirtouga, who does the same job better (with a few small exceptions, like how Dweb can kill Slowpoke) just doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, I totally agree with Dwebble for B rank, I just think that Wobbyle's post way under sold Dwebble in this meta (like even suggesting C rank is a little ridiculous imo). But yeah, I totally agree with you, except about Snubbull, still wouldn't be A without Spritzee :p.

 

[Wobbyble]

Rock Blast + Earthquake (edge-quake @_@) has amazing coverage and X-Scissor is a nice STAB bonus that gets hits on one of the most important physical walls in LC (these three moves have perfect coverage in LC). Water-Rock misses out on Croagunk and Ferroseed which are both pretty relevant.

+2 236+ Atk Dwebble Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed with SR)

Idk how much bulk you run on Mienfoo, as both bulky and fast Mienfoo are viable, but if you are running a faster foo it will die, that being said, Mienfoo with Eviolite is beating both Tirtouga and Dwebble anyways. As does Timburr, Tirtouga's real advantage lies in the fact it has a better match up vs Meditite (which is pretty important I'll admit).

Its attacks are plenty strong enough to "clean up late game" unless you have a very different definition of late game.

While Berry Juice can be played around, it can be played around on every Pokemon that uses / abuses berry juice in pretty much the same way, and it may be less durable but unlike Tirtouga, it has an above average speed before a smash (and can't be outsped by scarfers at +2 unlike tirt who speed ties with base 16 scarfers, and loses to faster scarfers). This means, that while Dwebble may not have priority, it also is less reliant on priority to succeed in it's sweep.

Uhh what part about "Shell Smash" do you not get, if you are using Dwebble as a hazard setter it is your problem? Defoggers also make it easier for you to keep SR of the field, so if hazards aren't significant I don't get why you are bringing them up?

Hate to break it to you but, "top of the ladder" is still relatively low level play, and if you believe sun "isn't viable" you have never played a well made sun team. While sun is somewhat match up dependent, it is also one of those things that you play, then realize you have nothing that stops it and you get destroyed. Don't get me wrong Snover should probably be B rank, as it can't switch into many (any?) of the Chloro sweepers, but saying sun "isn't viable" is stupid af.

Rock Blast is unreliable. Earthquake is weak as shit, like I said before. +2 EQ cannot even 2HKO Spritzee, and with Rock Blast you need 7 hits total to 2HKO. wow such strong. But as long as we agree on it being B rank, that's fine :'3
But it being C rank is not a ridiculous notion. Cottonee, Corphish, Tailow, and some other mons are all C rank and all hold (imo) much higher potential than Dwebble.

"While sun is somewhat match up dependent"
"While sun is somewhat match up dependent"
"While sun is somewhat match up dependent"

Thanks that was all that needed to be said.

 

[Expulso]

unlike Tirtouga, it has an above average speed before a smash (and can't be outsped by scarfers at +2 unlike tirt who speed ties with base 16 scarfers, and loses to faster scarfers). This means, that while Dwebble may not have priority, it also is less reliant on priority to succeed in it's sweep.

The problem with Dwebble's high speed is that it can also outspeed those it sets up on, meaning they get to attack a -1 Dwebble.

I support Dwebble for B-Rank.

 

[Chieliee]

The problem with Dwebble's high speed is that it can also outspeed those it sets up on, meaning they get to attack a -1 Dwebble.

I support Dwebble for B-Rank.

uhhhh except you want to get hit by a stronger attack because it'll have a higher chance to activate berry juice. you can't get ohko'd anyway.

Despite this, i also agree that Dwebble should be B-rank, because of its lack of priority/unreliable STAB's/weak to more kinds of priority (read: meditite)

The only reason I'd use it over tirt is to run a shell smash+stealth rock set, to bluff the pure hazard setter.

 

[tcr]

Specifically why Dwebble is too shitty for A tier:

• Shitty coverage and weak attacks. At +2 it cannot OHKO Evioliteless Mienfoo, different than Tirtouga
• No priority and not strong enough attacks to clean up late game.
• It has no durability. You can easily play around Berry Juice, hitting it with something weak to break sturdy
• Defog makes its role as a hazard abuser much less impressive
• Weak to SR
• Did I mention it's still weak as hell at +2

It's outclassed so hard by Tirtouga as a Shell Smash sweeper. Literally the ONLY thing it does better is OHKO Slowpoke, and that's about it. +2 Dwebble will never beat Meditite, Mienfoo, or Timburr if it's lost Berry Juice or is not at full health, even if Timburr and Mienfoo have lost their Eviolites already. The lack of priority means its very prone to things like Sucker Punch from Pawniard and Murkrow. Bug Rock stab is also AWFUL coverage, seeing as X Scissors basically only hits Slowpoke.

Id just like to point out that the differences between dwebble and tirtouga are technical. Tirtouga is a mid game sweeper, something where you hit a couple things with knock off, maybe lure in croagunk, MAYBE set up rocks, and bam, you start the sweep. This is different from dwebble, which is a Late Game Sweeper. You pretty much assume everything has been knocked off if said dwebble user is competent, as well as prior damage, at least 10-20%, and probably rocks. As such it requires more thought and play to actually sweep.

By hitting it with something weak you let it set up. Idk about you but even early game id rather not have to deal with a +2 dwebble, that can potentially 2hko your best checks, such as Mienfoo, or Gligar, or Slowpoke. Im not saying its swirlix good, but you cant use the point that its "weak as shit for a +2 sweeper" when it does its job just fine for a late game sweeper. Im also impartial to its tiering, B rank is just fine for it to me. I figured i would bring this point up however.

Predictable, but i support Amaura moving up to B tier. Its ability to counter Mixcrow is pretty decent imo, as well as being able to spam nature power for a 30% hax, or even straight up nuking shit for setup sweepers

 

[chimp]

Id just like to point out that the differences between dwebble and tirtouga are technical. Tirtouga is a mid game sweeper, something where you hit a couple things with knock off, maybe lure in croagunk, MAYBE set up rocks, and bam, you start the sweep. This is different from dwebble, which is a Late Game Sweeper. You pretty much assume everything has been knocked off if said dwebble user is competent, as well as prior damage, at least 10-20%, and probably rocks. As such it requires more thought and play to actually sweep.

By hitting it with something weak you let it set up. Idk about you but even early game id rather not have to deal with a +2 dwebble, that can potentially 2hko your best checks, such as Mienfoo, or Gligar, or Slowpoke. Im not saying its swirlix good, but you cant use the point that its "weak as shit for a +2 sweeper" when it does its job just fine for a late game sweeper. Im also impartial to its tiering, B rank is just fine for it to me. I figured i would bring this point up however.

Predictable, but i support Amaura moving up to B tier. Its ability to counter Mixcrow is pretty decent imo, as well as being able to spam nature power for a 30% hax, or even straight up nuking shit for setup sweepers

I think Amaura is good where its at. Its sets are good, but not fantastic. Its scarf set, while dangerous, has trouble breaking through a lot of common LC pokemon, Magemite, Porygon, Munchlax, Pawniard, etc. (That is, unless the Calc doesn't include the 30% boost from refrigerate, but I think it does now). It doesn't have any reliable recovery either, and still takes up to 40% from a evio Murkrow's Brave Bird and itemless Gligar's acrobatics. So while it does technically counter these pokemon, it is prone to being worn down and cannot do so reliably as the match goes on. It also requires heavy support as its weak to Stealth Rock and needs wish to remain healthy.

Hyper Beam is destructive, but there are some pokemon who can avoid a KO, then heal up or switch to a sweeper, so its not a very reliable strategy. Amaura is a good pokemon, but, in my opinion, it deserves C.

 

[Goldland]

hello, this is my first post around and i would like to comment about gen 1 pokemons viability, since i love and use them alot, and i tend to disagree with some of the rankings.

i would agree with people saying Grimer should be at least B rank, he can reliably tank swirlix and even gligar at full hp, and is overall very useful for his sticky hold and great coverage in elemental punches and shadow sneak. The only flaw would be the lack of reliable recovering, but if he's used right he surely can deliver at least 1 revenge kill plus one other almost assured kill. wish passing is still viable often due to its bulkiness and resistance to fighting type.

Magnemite is great at alot of functions but doesn't really excel at any specific one but berry juice recycle stalling, the lack of priority and speed makes it have some big flaws in any set up you make, that definetly requires team help, i would say he's closer to B-rank too.

Ponyta on the other side is underestimated, i mean , he's another case that if well played,he definetly values 1,5 opponent pokemon which is great, he can 1 shot many sweepers while outspeeding most of them. even switching in with water pokemons on ponyta is dangerous and the only good check in metagame is actually gligar and slowpoke, but even them will be left severely weakened. oh ,and he can definely thrash meditite and other sweepers on revenge kill. i actually see no big flaws on ponyta, he's really worth a A-rank imho. definetly counters other A rank pokemon like magnemite, snover, ferroseed, and does fine against any other.

Abra, i don't see why someone would consider gastly a B rank and abra a C. abra definetly is better special sweeper and can one shot many things that gastly can't and is still faster. as revenge killer and special sweeper, is really superior, and he's also better focus sasher with magic guard. on the current meta the 19 speed abra can make all the difference in the world to gastly 18 speed, and abra actuall checks any fightin or poison type. the only true advantage of gastly is stopping special sweepers with clear smog, and even so, renders him useless for the rest of the match. Abra for B rank, imo. there's no real safe switch ins on abra, pratically you most probably will have to sacrifice someone to kill him. gastly 3 immunities are easily rendered useless, because almost all of those types have knock-off, which screws gastly with a little predictabillty. Gastly needs alot more team support to be really useful than abra too.

Staryu is great with no real negative traits. it can also do almost any function, has recover, rapid spin, natural cure/analytic and reliable attacks that hurt. She doesn't rly excel at anything but isn't bad at anything either. Too good for B.

Vulpix - Drought is great for sun teams, but vulpix barely kills or counters anything on current meta but from surprise energy balls. definetly outclassed at any other thing but drought by Litleo imo.

Machop - D- Rank, seriously? This guy really has a niche that can be real hard to counter: Scarfed+ No guard+ dynamic punch. it's really a fantatic set which wrecks even supposed checks and counters and 1 shots alot of neutral pokes. if a team doesn't have a ghost type he'll surelly suffer from the confusion, which can obviously be hax. Definetly at least a c-rank, probably more than onix.

Now pokes that aren't even ranked but should be:
Goldeen - B-rank, seriously, i don't know how people don't use her more. Nice stats and bulky with eviolite, great coverage with unexpected megahorn, knockoff, drill run and it's great lightning rod ability that makes her immune to electric type attacks. She has no real flaws but the lack of recover, like grimer, but she usually does her job well enough to be worth on a top tier team. Great counter to scarf chinchou, and a threat to even s-ranked like gligar and pawniard.
Paras - typing is weird , but it's access to spore and overall nice bulkiness and dry skin, can make a good replacement for foongus, it just lack regenerator, to be on the same level. c-rank
Eevee- adaptability quick attack is suprisingly strong to priority kill. Overall average stats but very good utilities like wish/heal bell, curse, agility, baton pass. Evio eevee double edge OHKO 0 def gligar, dont underestimate eevee, she surely can have a niche as a priority killer. The only actual bad point on eevee is lack of coverage in attack types. C-rank. Adaptability+last resort is really fun too xD.
Kabuto - As good as bulky tirtouga for defensive, and actually versatile, it lacks stone edge or shell smash but has other interesting moves like rapid spin, confuse ray and knock off. C-rank
Ekans- Hard to say, c-rank. It's good overall, but outclassed by other poison types in possible functions, but not by much, just doesn't have a real niche per se, Intimidate, shed skin and unnerve surely makes it interesting.

 

[chimp]

hello, this is my first post around and i would like to comment about gen 1 pokemons viability, since i love and use them alot, and i tend to disagree with some of the rankings.

i would agree with people saying Grimer should be at least B rank, he can reliably tank swirlix and even gligar at full hp, and is overall very useful for his sticky hold and great coverage in elemental punches and shadow sneak. The only flaw would be the lack of reliable recovering, but if he's used right he surely can deliver at least 1 revenge kill plus one other almost assured kill. wish passing is still viable often due to its bulkiness and resistance to fighting type.

Magnemite is great at alot of functions but doesn't really excel at any specific one but berry juice recycle stalling, the lack of priority and speed makes it have some big flaws in any set up you make, that definetly requires team help, i would say he's closer to B-rank too.

Ponyta on the other side is underestimated, i mean , he's another case that if well played,he definetly values 1,5 opponent pokemon which is great, he can 1 shot many sweepers while outspeeding most of them. even switching in with water pokemons on ponyta is dangerous and the only good check in metagame is actually gligar and slowpoke, but even them will be left severely weakened. oh ,and he can definely thrash meditite and other sweepers on revenge kill. i actually see no big flaws on ponyta, he's really worth a A-rank imho. definetly counters other A rank pokemon like magnemite, snover, ferroseed, and does fine against any other.

Abra, i don't see why someone would consider gastly a B rank and abra a C. abra definetly is better special sweeper and can one shot many things that gastly can't and is still faster. as revenge killer and special sweeper, is really superior, and he's also better focus sasher with magic guard. on the current meta the 19 speed abra can make all the difference in the world to gastly 18 speed, and abra actuall checks any fightin or poison type. the only true advantage of gastly is stopping special sweepers with clear smog, and even so, renders him useless for the rest of the match. Abra for B rank, imo. there's no real safe switch ins on abra, pratically you most probably will have to sacrifice someone to kill him. gastly 3 immunities are easily rendered useless, because almost all of those types have knock-off, which screws gastly with a little predictabillty. Gastly needs alot more team support to be really useful than abra too.

Staryu is great with no real negative traits. it can also do almost any function, has recover, rapid spin, natural cure/analytic and reliable attacks that hurt. She doesn't rly excel at anything but isn't bad at anything either. Too good for B.

Vulpix - Drought is great for sun teams, but vulpix barely kills or counters anything on current meta but from surprise energy balls. definetly outclassed at any other thing but drought by Litleo imo.

Machop - D- Rank, seriously? This guy really has a niche that can be real hard to counter: Scarfed+ No guard+ dynamic punch. it's really a fantatic set which wrecks even supposed checks and counters and 1 shots alot of neutral pokes. if a team doesn't have a ghost type he'll surelly suffer from the confusion, which can obviously be hax. Definetly at least a c-rank, probably more than onix.

Now pokes that aren't even ranked but should be:
Goldeen - B-rank, seriously, i don't know how people don't use her more. Nice stats and bulky with eviolite, great coverage with unexpected megahorn, knockoff, drill run and it's great lightning rod ability that makes her immune to electric type attacks. She has no real flaws but the lack of recover, like grimer, but she usually does her job well enough to be worth on a top tier team. Great counter to scarf chinchou, and a threat to even s-ranked like gligar and pawniard.
Paras - typing is weird , but it's access to spore and overall nice bulkiness and dry skin, can make a good replacement for foongus, it just lack regenerator, to be on the same level. c-rank
Eevee- adaptability quick attack is suprisingly strong to priority kill. Overall average stats but very good utilities like wish/heal bell, curse, agility, baton pass. Evio eevee double edge OHKO 0 def gligar, dont underestimate eevee, she surely can have a niche as a priority killer. The only actual bad point on eevee is lack of coverage in attack types. C-rank. Adaptability+last resort is really fun too xD.
Kabuto - As good as bulky tirtouga for defensive, and actually versatile, it lacks stone edge or shell smash but has other interesting moves like rapid spin, confuse ray and knock off. C-rank
Ekans- Hard to say, c-rank. It's good overall, but outclassed by other poison types in possible functions, but not by much, just doesn't have a real niche per se, Intimidate, shed skin and unnerve surely makes it interesting.

Staryu, Machop, Goldeen, Kabuto, Ekans, and Eevee deserve where they are. Staryu should stay in B because it doesn't offer much more than other water types, namely Slowpoke, Chinchou and Carvanha. Its not incredibly powerful or bulky, and rapid spin's utility isn't as necessary this gen.

Machop's only selling point is DynamicPunch, and the only way to use it effectively is to give it a scarf. Confusion itself isn't the most fantastic thing either, its gimmicky at best and ghosts stomp all over it.

Goldeen is nearly the same case as Staryu. Its outclassed by Tirtouga in just about every way, with the exception of being able to counter chinchou. Goldeen can't break through common physical walls like Croagunk, Foongus, and Spritzee. Its only redeeming feature is Knock Off, but its so slow without a scarf, and too weak without a life orb. Though, I will agree that it at least deserves D as opposed to not be ranked at all.

Kabuto is outclassed by the other Water/Rocks. Omanyte has access to all entry hazards, Titrouga can smash and is has solid rock and knock off as well. I mentioned before that Confusion isn't a reliable strategy either.

Ekans is just mediocre all around. Even with intimidate, it is not very bulky, and that ability will actually boost Pawniards attack, and Pawn is a common switch in to poison types, while ekans only has a small chance to 2KO with earthquake. Its stats and movepool are both mediocre, and I don't think it should be used at all.

Finally, Eevee. Eevee shouldn't be used as a sweeper, it just doesn't have the stats or coverage to pull that off. It is usable though, with baby-doll eyes, wish, and yawn, but even still it only should be D rank.


Abra and Ponyta, in my opinion, should remain in B. Abra is walled by the myriad of specially defensive pokemon and is too frail to set up, while Ponyta can be killed easily by a lot of common pokemon. Larvesta has the same ability, better movepool, and a resistance to fighting.

 

[Wobbyble]

Abra and Ponyta, in my opinion, should remain in B. Abra is walled by the myriad of specially defensive pokemon and is too frail to set up, while Ponyta can be killed easily by a lot of common pokemon. Larvesta has the same ability, better movepool, and a resistance to fighting.

Also it's slower, weak to flying, neutral to fire, and x4 weak to SR.

hello, this is my first post around and i would like to comment about gen 1 pokemons viability, since i love and use them alot, and i tend to disagree with some of the rankings.

i would agree with people saying Grimer should be at least B rank, he can reliably tank swirlix and even gligar at full hp, and is overall very useful for his sticky hold and great coverage in elemental punches and shadow sneak. The only flaw would be the lack of reliable recovering, but if he's used right he surely can deliver at least 1 revenge kill plus one other almost assured kill. wish passing is still viable often due to its bulkiness and resistance to fighting type.

Magnemite is great at alot of functions but doesn't really excel at any specific one but berry juice recycle stalling, the lack of priority and speed makes it have some big flaws in any set up you make, that definetly requires team help, i would say he's closer to B-rank too.

Ponyta on the other side is underestimated, i mean , he's another case that if well played,he definetly values 1,5 opponent pokemon which is great, he can 1 shot many sweepers while outspeeding most of them. even switching in with water pokemons on ponyta is dangerous and the only good check in metagame is actually gligar and slowpoke, but even them will be left severely weakened. oh ,and he can definely thrash meditite and other sweepers on revenge kill. i actually see no big flaws on ponyta, he's really worth a A-rank imho. definetly counters other A rank pokemon like magnemite, snover, ferroseed, and does fine against any other.

Abra, i don't see why someone would consider gastly a B rank and abra a C. abra definetly is better special sweeper and can one shot many things that gastly can't and is still faster. as revenge killer and special sweeper, is really superior, and he's also better focus sasher with magic guard. on the current meta the 19 speed abra can make all the difference in the world to gastly 18 speed, and abra actuall checks any fightin or poison type. the only true advantage of gastly is stopping special sweepers with clear smog, and even so, renders him useless for the rest of the match. Abra for B rank, imo. there's no real safe switch ins on abra, pratically you most probably will have to sacrifice someone to kill him. gastly 3 immunities are easily rendered useless, because almost all of those types have knock-off, which screws gastly with a little predictabillty. Gastly needs alot more team support to be really useful than abra too.

Staryu is great with no real negative traits. it can also do almost any function, has recover, rapid spin, natural cure/analytic and reliable attacks that hurt. She doesn't rly excel at anything but isn't bad at anything either. Too good for B.

Vulpix - Drought is great for sun teams, but vulpix barely kills or counters anything on current meta but from surprise energy balls. definetly outclassed at any other thing but drought by Litleo imo.

Machop - D- Rank, seriously? This guy really has a niche that can be real hard to counter: Scarfed+ No guard+ dynamic punch. it's really a fantatic set which wrecks even supposed checks and counters and 1 shots alot of neutral pokes. if a team doesn't have a ghost type he'll surelly suffer from the confusion, which can obviously be hax. Definetly at least a c-rank, probably more than onix.

Now pokes that aren't even ranked but should be:
Goldeen - B-rank, seriously, i don't know how people don't use her more. Nice stats and bulky with eviolite, great coverage with unexpected megahorn, knockoff, drill run and it's great lightning rod ability that makes her immune to electric type attacks. She has no real flaws but the lack of recover, like grimer, but she usually does her job well enough to be worth on a top tier team. Great counter to scarf chinchou, and a threat to even s-ranked like gligar and pawniard.
Paras - typing is weird , but it's access to spore and overall nice bulkiness and dry skin, can make a good replacement for foongus, it just lack regenerator, to be on the same level. c-rank
Eevee- adaptability quick attack is suprisingly strong to priority kill. Overall average stats but very good utilities like wish/heal bell, curse, agility, baton pass. Evio eevee double edge OHKO 0 def gligar, dont underestimate eevee, she surely can have a niche as a priority killer. The only actual bad point on eevee is lack of coverage in attack types. C-rank. Adaptability+last resort is really fun too xD.
Kabuto - As good as bulky tirtouga for defensive, and actually versatile, it lacks stone edge or shell smash but has other interesting moves like rapid spin, confuse ray and knock off. C-rank
Ekans- Hard to say, c-rank. It's good overall, but outclassed by other poison types in possible functions, but not by much, just doesn't have a real niche per se, Intimidate, shed skin and unnerve surely makes it interesting.

Okay I'm going to ignore everything past Machop since everything below it isn't even viable in LC.
I used Grimer and got one of my alts from 1350ish to 1570 undefeated and I honestly feel like Grimer still belongs in C. It's great for absorbing a Knock Off from something like Timburr or Mienfoo, and yeah it can live anything from Swirlix, but its lack of recovery makes it extremely underewhelming. I even put it on the same team as Spritzee, and not once did I ever pass Grimer a Wish. I just never had the opportunity to give it a Wish, or never felt the need to. It lacks the power to threaten things like Slowpoke and Porygon, meaning things like Croagunk and Timburr get a free switch out. It has a nice niche of a good Swirlix counter, but I honestly feel like it's somewhat underwhelming outside of that.

Magnemite is A tier due to its strong Steel stab in the form of Flash Cannon that is great for taking out fairies. Only Pawniard is on the same level of Fiary Duster as Magnemite. Volt switch is what makes it amazing, as as long as they don't have Chinchou, this move becomes easily spammable. Sturdy Juice makes it a good go-to check for any sort of set up sweeper, and it has a great 19 SpA with a Timid Nature along with great coverage that only Chinchou can shit on.

Ponyta is A tier, yes, let's move it up already pls. Fast, bulky, 3rd highest BST in the metagame, great ability, great status capability, etc.

I haven't tried LO Abra this generation yet. I might give it another go, it could still be good, but since the majority of players use Sashbra, it's fairly underwhelming, as it lacks the power to wallbreak things like Porygon and Munchlax and Spritzee. I might give LO another whirl, but it's C rank the way most people use it.

Stayu is B because it lost its niche place as the best spinner in the meta. Now Defog is much more reliable, and Staryu is stuck in an awkward spot, being too weak of a 19 speeder to sweep and be a full offensive threat, while being too frail to run any defensive sets. It's still great, but not comparable to any A tier mons.

 

[Goldland]

...

i'll quote the ranks description, to justify my opinion:

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
C-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
D-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.


As for machop, yes, ghosts block dynamic punch, but that's why you can also use knock off. Anyway i think he fits c-rank description, even if only scarfed machop

And you're underestimating goldeen. She can switch on fire, ice, water,steel and lightning attacks and immediatly land a kill with it's good coverage without having to smash. and goldeen slow? 17 speed and 16 attack is decent on my book, with eviolite giving also some bulk. she has good stats, good coverage, good ability, well worth a B-rank along with staryu. and she does hurt foongus with drill run/ mega-horn or even knock off and switch out.


Kabuto and omanyte aren't that different, it's just that kabuto is physical and omanyte is special bulky sweepers
kabuto can be valuable with good prediction on switching in to proc weak armor, this ofc , is full bulky kabuto which is no worse than bulky tirtouga but faster, that can instantly sweep.

Ekans also has more than meets the eye. Nice bulk with eviolite, access to coil and stockpille, tanks and 1hko swirlix back, access to good coverage like earthquake, sucker punch,glare, and any of it's ability are really good. not worse than grimer, just a different coverage.

Now Eevee, doesn't have great typing to wall or sweep, but has a wide ammount of utilitys that makes her. The only niche is last resort/doubleedge + adaptability 2x stab, that allows eevee to 1 hko any non resisting opponent and its quick attack can 2 hko anything too. Anyway, he deserves a rank, either for the ammount of functions eevee can fulfill without excelling at any of them.

 

[natu]

Cubone should be at least D tier, with the right support cubone can be a wrecking ball. Cubone has some pretty decent physical bulk with a 95 base defense so he can live a priority move or two and his ability to OHKO things is unreal. With thick club, Cubones attack reaches a max of 30, if you manage to get a Swords dance off safely then it rises to a max of 60. Torchpass some speed to cubone and cubone is gonna wreck some havoc as long as he is brought in safely. His signature move bonemerang breaks subs, sturdy, sashes, etc. I've swept 4-5 mons so many times with cubone I've lost count, I wish I saved some of the replays but unfortunately I did not. The only real problem with cubone is his lack of speed and his dependency on Thick Club, other than that cubone is pretty awesome and deserves D rank at LEAST. Corkscrew said cubone is better at being a wallbreaker but I've never used cubone like that so I have no credibility to try and talk about that.