OU Using Gengar as a non-lead

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I want to use gengar, mostly because I think it's cool and it walls stuff like wrap and random niche threats like persian that you might run into every now and then on the ladder. It also has huge playmaking potential that's based more on ballsy predictions than evaluations, which seems to compliment my reckless playstyle. The problem is I don't see where it fits on a team at all. I don't want to use it as a lead, as personally I think it's a terrible lead and is heavily outclassed by zam in the lead position for numerous reasons.

If you take the standard team of lead zam-eggy-chansey-rhydon/starmie/-lax-tauros, I don't see what you replace with gengar. You seem to lose something huge if you drop any of these pokemon. I was thinking of dropping rhydon, because you dont really use rhydon to switch into high frequency moves, and you don't really need a rock to beat zapdos. I feel like I'm losing a lot of offensive pressure though.

Anyway, if anyone can give me some tips on how to build a gengar team and what it synergises well with that would be greatly appreciated. For the record, I was thinking of running hyp/cray-tbolt/nshade/boom.

Thanks in advance
 
Well, having two Normal-resists is a big overlap, so yes, it usually is Rhydon that goes.

I can't really make sense of your slashing and dashing style, so I don't actually know what you're suggesting in your set. Confuse Ray's really, really luck-dependent, and the issue is that you need two confusion procs to be worth your time - Gengar, unlike Lapras, has a serious tendency not to last that long against the stuff that switches into it. IMO Gengar's best move is Mega Drain, because it makes Gengar's Explosion actually matter against an opponent with Golem or Rhydon, and in all seriousness the sum total of Gengar's ideal contribution to most battles is "switch into Snorlax's SD, keep the opponent scared to explode on stuff, force a couple of switches, and then Explode". I guess Thunderbolt kinda also matters since Starmie outspeeds Gar and survives Explosion, and it allows Gengar to beat Rest Lapras and scare Slowbro somewhat, but honestly given Gengar's tendency to hit stuff only on the switch Night Shade's a lot more reliable.

Anyway, that was a lot of rambling from someone who barely uses Gar, hope you can make some sense of it.
 
Honestly I mainly use cray when I don't know what will switch in. It usually helps whatever I'll switch in next.

The reason why I don't like mega drain is because literally the only thing it does is catch rocks switching in to absorb explosion. It has virtually no use outside of that scenario. I prefer night shade because it hits psychics and still does damage to rocks and other gar. It's the damage move that all of gars main counters enjoy switching into the least (apart from boom obv). Thunderbolt is to scare starmie whilst also hurting tauros and lax (kinda).

I guess I can see gar over rhydon because gar wears down eggy better with nshade, at the expense of not being able to paralyse it (unless lolthunderbolt). I'm guessing it kind of fills rhydon's role of being a semi-answer to slowbro with nshades plus boom in a rest loop, or just a yolo critbolt.
 

Jorgen

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If you would replace Rhydon with Starmie on that team (as indicated by the slash), what's the hesitation with using Gengar instead?
 
I wouldn't, it's just that starmie over rhydon would still be considered a standard team. Starmie with stosszam is kinda redundant to me.
 
Honestly I mainly use cray when I don't know what will switch in. It usually helps whatever I'll switch in next.
Problem with this is that you're basically swapping 1 turn (C-ray) for 1/2 a turn (the chance they'll HSiC when you switch in your counter).
 

Mr.E

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Confusion gains you 1/4 of a turn (average 2.5 turns confused at 50% loss of turn, minus the turn spent on confusing the target) and the fact it works against literally everything equally well gives you every reason to use it against switches. It's even better in RBY because Gengar can't do damage to shit anyway, so you may as well stop Zam from Recovering or whatever the hell.

Seismic Toss > Night Shade, more PP.
 
The PP isn't really relevant, and stoss can be countered. Unlikely to be countered sure, but it might happen if they happen to have counter on something.

Cray is just a good yolo move to try cheeze with if you're behind. You have a mathematical chance, however low it may be, to 1v1 something with cray hax.

I'm currently using leadzam-eggy-chansey-gar-gsclax-tauros. It's filled in fine I guess, although it means that a paralysed chansey can be hell to deal with. So much so that I'm too scared to throw out twaves a lot of the time.
 
Confusion gains you 1/4 of a turn (average 2.5 turns confused at 50% loss of turn, minus the turn spent on confusing the target) and the fact it works against literally everything equally well gives you every reason to use it against switches.
Crap. Thing is, that average is borked because it assumes Gengar will survive until confusion ends - against the things that switch into it, it won't. Earthquake and STAB Psychic 2HKO, STAB Earthquake OHKOs, and everything switching into it will have one of those.

You can switch out to avoid that, but then they'll switch as well, which removes the confusion.

It's even better in RBY because Gengar can't do damage to shit anyway, so you may as well stop Zam from Recovering or whatever the hell.
Chain-switching works better and doesn't eat a moveslot.

Seismic Toss > Night Shade, more PP.
Gar's not going to run out of PP, and Toss can backfire in situations like this:

X called back Persian!
X sent out Chansey!
Gengar used Seismic Toss!

---

Gengar, come back!
Go! Snorlax!
The foe's Chansey used Counter!
(Snorlax takes 200 damage)



Night Shade can't be Countered, so it doesn't risk that kind of trap.



EDIT: Oh and Dre why are you worrying about Para Chansey when you have GSCLax?
 
I'm worried about a paralysed chansey because it freezes my shit, and I don't want to show my GSC lax early because I don't want them to know that they need to keep their gar or rock around, so I can remove them.

I swear every player and their mother runs gengar on showdown
 
Well then you lose a lot of offensive threat because you need everything paralysed first. That's what makes gsclax so great- it's a wall, a set up pokemon and a sweeper all in one. It has the versatility to either be saved for a sweep, or to be thrown out early to try and wreck havoc to set up tauros or dragonite. If you remove body slam you lose the set up potential.
 
Well then you lose a lot of offensive threat because you need everything paralysed first. That's what makes gsclax so great- it's a wall, a set up pokemon and a sweeper all in one. It has the versatility to either be saved for a sweep, or to be thrown out early to try and wreck havoc to set up tauros or dragonite. If you remove body slam you lose the set up potential.
Um, what? Why do you need everything paralysed to use Ice Beam Tanklax?
 

Jorgen

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I'd honestly just run a standard Snorlax there so you can wear things down faster. Maybe even a set like Slam/EQ/Surf/Counter to possibly catch Rocks and opposing Snorlax/Tauros so that your Chansey is not as threatened by their weakened Physical attackers and is therefore in a better position to bait Explosions so you can troll people with surprise Gengar. Although I guess if you catch them with Counter or Surf, catching Explosion is less vital to your gameplan and more just adding insult to injury.
 

BenTheDemon

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I honestly think Gengar is best as a non-lead since Explosion is common in RBY. It's a great way to lure an Exploder and absorb the hit.
 

Jorgen

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I've had that thought as well, but trying to predict Explosions is still a very risky endeavor with something that's weak to the most common Exploders' STABs, even if you've hidden Gar up to that point. Definitely still a powerful tactic, but it's not something you want to rely on game-in game-out. Plus, I find that on most Gengar teams, there generally isn't a whole lot of room for another suitable lead unless I give up something else important (e.g., a Rock to switch in against Zapdos/Snorlax), so in the end I tend to just settle with lead Gar.
 
A Rock's probably not as essential if you've got Gar.

Revealing Gar on a Lax Self-D can win the game right there, and Lax a) doesn't always have EQ, b) probably won't use EQ on the switch.

Oh, and there's always Cloyster, which can't maim Gengar the way Egg and Golem can. Not as common as Egg or Golem, but it's definitely an OU. Switching into an opposing Gengar boom is cool too.
 

Mr.E

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Using Gengar doesn't absolve the need of Golem/Rhydon to stave off Zapdos. Gengar sure isn't doing shit to it except its own pussy-ass Explosion; Normal resistance is not the main reason to use Goldon.

I'm not a big fan of Gengar in RBY anyway but I don't see why it can't operate outside of the lead spot. Part of it is metagaming -- Gengar gets slammed by every other lead if it doesn't hit its T1 Hypnosis (and Zam outspeeds anyway) -- but I'd also say that Gengar in general isn't a particularly special lead. All it has going for it is faster sleep, which is nice enough I guess but you're not outspeeding the generally best sleep absorber anyway (Zam) and you ruin the surprise factor of packing Normal immunity. Jynx is still pretty fast and fares much better against Eggy/Zam if speedy sleep is all you care about; it also hits harder and threatens to freeze the switch-in.
 
I've had that thought as well, but trying to predict Explosions is still a very risky endeavor with something that's weak to the most common Exploders' STABs, even if you've hidden Gar up to that point. Definitely still a powerful tactic, but it's not something you want to rely on game-in game-out. Plus, I find that on most Gengar teams, there generally isn't a whole lot of room for another suitable lead unless I give up something else important (e.g., a Rock to switch in against Zapdos/Snorlax), so in the end I tend to just settle with lead Gar.
Luring Explosions certainly isn't too trivial and I find that if you're playing right, the risk can be substantially lowered. The key for me, really, is Chansey. It's the most most useful Pokemon in RBY in my opinion due to the fact that it can literally be thrown around to absorb status and take Special hits (a God-send when you're keeping Alakazam, Starmie, Tauros, Persian, etc. safe from harm). If you've properly used her (and have swayed your opponent's style/actions), then you have annoyed the hell out of your opponent to the point they'll try to take her out at whatever the cost. Halfway through the match or later, they're likely to have Exeggutor or their own Gengar explode. Easy to see those coming.

Echoing that using Gengar does not eliminate the need for the Rocks. Not like Gengar can take on Zapdos properly.
 
Using Gengar doesn't absolve the need of Golem/Rhydon to stave off Zapdos. Gengar sure isn't doing shit to it except its own pussy-ass Explosion; Normal resistance is not the main reason to use Goldon.
Echoing that using Gengar does not eliminate the need for the Rocks. Not like Gengar can take on Zapdos properly.

Rocks do two things; they hardwall Zapdos and they punish excessive use of Normal moves. The former is more powerful, but the latter is relevant more often since Zapdos is rare (11% usage at the moment). Gengar fulfills the second role, and as such makes Rocks less useful.

Note also that Zapdos can be defeated without using the Rocks. It's just harder. It's not like Slowbro, where there's like 3 moves that can effectively damage it and it can 6-0 a team without them; Zapdos can be worn down and has trouble getting past some walls (Chansey, and to a lesser extent ReflectZam and AmnesiaLax). The Rocks are certainly the best answers to Zapdos and incredibly useful if you're facing one, but they're not needed the way you need Chansey or Zam (or Jolteon, I suppose) to stop Starmie or the way you need two Psychic absorbers to stop Alakazam or the way you need Exploders or a Razor Leafer/fast Thunderbolt user to stop Slowbro.
 
The main reason why you run a rock over other pokemon like gengar who fulfill a similar defensive role is the fact that you have an answer to paralysed chanseys. This is why a lot of people prefer rhydon over golem now, because of the guaranteed 2HKO with earthquake.
 
The main reason why you run a rock over other pokemon like gengar who fulfill a similar defensive role is the fact that you have an answer to paralysed chanseys. This is why a lot of people prefer rhydon over golem now, because of the guaranteed 2HKO with earthquake.
Well, no, the biggest reason to run a Rock over Gengar is that Rocks 100% wall Zapdos and Gengar doesn't. The second biggest is that Rocks can force Hyper Beam recharges and Gengar can't.

Rhydon can attack Chansey, but it can't defend against Chansey very well because it's a 2HKO both ways - you can't counter paraChansey with it reliably. Golem, however, can switch into paraChansey and OHKO it with Explosion (or similarly check a non-paralysed Chansey) if that's really necessary.
 
Zapdos isn't that common anymore, and people have realised that you don't need a ground to beat it. I never said rhydon was a hard counter, but it is a good strat to have up the sleeve.
 
Zapdos isn't that common anymore, and people have realised that you don't need a ground to beat it. I never said rhydon was a hard counter, but it is a good strat to have up the sleeve.
You used the word "defend". That was the problem. Rhydon does not "defend" against paraChansey better than Golem. Heck, it doesn't "defend" against paraChansey much better than Gengar.
 
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