Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Darkamber8828]

"[15:24]<Oiawesome> 196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou in Sun: 11-13 (42.3 - 50%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
[15:24]<Oiawesome>use HP elec for mantyke: sweep
[15:25]<Oiawesome>vulpix for S/A rank

"

Vulpix For A Rank

Now, generally, Vulpix is thought as a 'good enough B rank sun support mon' and not much else. But I'm here to change that thinking, not only is vulpix arguablly the best poke to set sunny day with due to drought, it also makes sun offense pretty much viable. That's also known but, imo, it's also one of the most amazing hard hitters in the tier:

Overall, it's impossible to switch into and supports the team very well, not only that it also has versatility between defensive and offensive sets.

vulpix can't support its team without heat rock (+ heavy defensive investment probably) and it can't hurt things without specs

you gotta pick one

which really sucks

 

[Vileman]

This is where I got swirlix from. I also thought it was a pretty bad example of a set up mon, too.

I don't get how you can set up multiple times, since you are either going to send out something that can KO it / or can Wall it and status it/phaze it out. I'm not trying to factor skill, just common sense. Like I said before I would rather get rid of walls and find an opportunity to set up on something that can't threaten the pokemon setting up out and proceed to sweep without having to worry about walls in the future. Wynaut is better at killing/stopping scarfers/sweepers, breaks down walls. It really shouldn't be D rank.

Ooops, should had read the whole thing before posting, sorry.
And the thing about double boosting is with sturdy juicers; encore lasts 3 turns, on the 1rst one you switch out, 2nd one either he switches out to something that can damage you/status you. Then on the first case you SS again as you could have your sturdy intact, or in the 2nd you just proceed to attack. Just an scenario that can be possible with encore support.

 

[Wobbyble]

vileman, I stand by what I said. Misdreavus will most likely have to tank hits or make risky switch predicts to get in Nasty Plot. It doesn't force out a lot of top tier things unless they're low health. If you look at S and A rank mons all it forces out without them being low health are Slowpoke, Bunnelby, and Meditite. Maybe a +0 Tirtouga. Every single physical attacker in the A-S tier carries Knock Off except Meditite, Bunnelby, Murkrow, and Carvanha and Misdreavus cannot set up on the latter two. Misdreavus is a strong pick, but Nasty Plot has trouble pulling off any sweeps due to it being unable to set up on the majority of top tier mons. Even once you get +2, the typical NP set only has Shadow Ball/DG for coverage, and you lose a lot on utility and safety if you pick another coverage move over WoW. With only Ghost/Fairy coverage, +2 is still fairly weak can't even OHKO things like Berry Juice/itemless Fletchling. A-rank is where it belongs now and IMO it deserved A rank last generation when it was a much stronger pick.

Also TBH running HP Electric on Vulpix is kind of pointless, Mantyke has 2% usage, so you're running a move that will be useful one every 50 games, seeing as x.5 effectiveness Fire Blast hits just as hard as x2 effectiveness Hidden Power. WoW would be a better move choice even on a Specs set. Overheat/Flamethrower as additional Fire type coverage for the last slot would probably be more useful lol.

 

[dcae]

Missy needs to be S rank, it's ridiculously versatile, powerful, and can sweep teams just as well as Gligar, a soon to be banned Pokemon. Knock Off buff definitely hurt it a bit, but the boost to its Ghost STAB made it even more deadly, because it opens up new options in the second attacking slot over HP Fighting. Typical NP set has two slots to play around with, and each one fucks its answers in one way or another. Misdreavus also benefited from Berry Juice, allowing Sub to become even more effective, and allows setting up vs more defensive mons not carrying status if you don't carry Sub. Also, the increased Berry Juice usage makes shit overall less bulky, allowing Missy to kill stuff at +2 it couldn't before. Obviously you're not gonna be setting up on a Knock Off, but Missy forces switches easily and does not have a hard time setting up Nasty Plot.

Even putting aside its Nasty Plot sets, Missy can run some killer glue or supporter sets thanks to that huge support movepool including Will-o-Wisp, something HUGE this gen, crippling Tirt, Meditite, Fighting types in general, Krow. Niche moves include Pain Split/Icy Wind/Heal Bell.

The thing about NP Missy is how well it tears the typical Regen core apart. Nothing they carry normally resists Shadow Ball, and all the Pokemon bar Mienfoo are set up bait. Even Porygon, a common sight on these teams, is helpless vs a HP Fighting Misdreavus. The way Missy can pick and choose its battles is similar to Belly Drum Swirlix's last slot manipulation.

Missy is currently underrated and 100% deserves to be S rank.

 

[Star]

Missy needs to be S rank, it's ridiculously versatile, powerful, and can sweep teams just as well as Gligar, a soon to be banned Pokemon. Knock Off buff definitely hurt it a bit, but the boost to its Ghost STAB made it even more deadly, because it opens up new options in the second attacking slot over HP Fighting. Typical NP set has two slots to play around with, and each one fucks its answers in one way or another. Misdreavus also benefited from Berry Juice, allowing Sub to become even more effective, and allows setting up vs more defensive mons not carrying status if you don't carry Sub. Also, the increased Berry Juice usage makes shit overall less bulky, allowing Missy to kill stuff at +2 it couldn't before. Obviously you're not gonna be setting up on a Knock Off, but Missy forces switches easily and does not have a hard time setting up Nasty Plot.

Even putting aside its Nasty Plot sets, Missy can run some killer glue or supporter sets thanks to that huge support movepool including Will-o-Wisp, something HUGE this gen, crippling Tirt, Meditite, Fighting types in general, Krow. Niche moves include Pain Split/Icy Wind/Heal Bell.

The thing about NP Missy is how well it tears the typical Regen core apart. Nothing they carry normally resists Shadow Ball, and all the Pokemon bar Mienfoo are set up bait. Even Porygon, a common sight on these teams, is helpless vs a HP Fighting Misdreavus. The way Missy can pick and choose its battles is similar to Belly Drum Swirlix's last slot manipulation.

Missy is currently underrated and 100% deserves to be S rank.

Agreeing with everything here. Wobby I don't see why you say Missy has a difficult time setting up. A lot of common mons are basically set up fodder for it like Slowpoke and no Meditite is dumb enough to stay in. For what it's worth I've run a successful team on the ladder (34-1) and I've only failed to set up Missy once. It forces a ton of switches and really takes advantage of them. Also missy gives great utility to the team though WoW because Shell Smash and offensive SR leads are pretty common. Also HP Fighting Missy which is fairly common beats Pawn as long it's running at least 17 speed and Eviolite.

 

[Wobbyble]

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

You actually think this fits Missy? O_o

Not much of a point continuing this discussion, its clear we're subjectively influenced here. I've used Missy a lot before and it just doesn't give me the consistency that I get from things like Gligar, Mienfoo, or Murkrow, and I'd need to see Pawniard back in S rank before I'd ever agree to Missy being there because Pawn is a hell of a lot more low risk high reward than Missy.

 

[dcae]

lol pawn isn't s rank.

 

[Wobbyble]

exactly my point :3

 

[Aerow]

I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that Elekid is C-Rank, he deserves so much more. Elekid now, before Swirlix and Gligar are (eventually) banned, is a Pokémon almost every team should have, in my opinion.

I run this set on my Elekid:

Elekid (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Static
EVs: 236 SAtk / 236 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 9 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Cross Chop
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Some calculations:

Eviolite Mienfoo

236 SpA Life Orb Elekid Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Offensive Gligar

236 SpA Life Orb Elekid Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 26-36 (113 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Eviolite Pawniard

0- Atk Life Orb Elekid Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive Gligar

236 SpA Life Orb Elekid Hidden Power Ice vs. 156 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 21-26 (84 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


Life Orb Elekid is extremely strong. One of Little Cup's biggest threats, Gligar, is OHKO by Life Orb Hidden Power Ice. Defensive Gligars with much HP or Special Defense EVs can survive it, but they are pretty rare. But that's not the only thing Elekid can do. Psychic OHKO most Mienfoos, Cross Chop OHKO Pawniard and STAB Thunderbolt for everything else.

Elekid with Timid outspeeds everything in the tier that's not Scarfed, except Voltorb, which also hits 20 Speed. The only problem with Elekid is it's horrible Defense. Because of that, it's very weak to priority Sucker Punch. It also has a hard time to break through Chinchou and many walls. Elekid is because of that not "good enough" for S-Rank or A-Rank. But it should atleast be B-Ranked, or maybe even A before Swirlix and Gligar is banned.

 

[apt-get]

I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that Elekid is C-Rank, he deserves so much more. Elekid now, before Swirlix and Gligar are (eventually) banned, is a Pokémon almost every team should have, in my opinion.

I run this set on my Elekid:

Elekid (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Static
EVs: 236 SAtk / 236 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 9 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Cross Chop
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Some calculations:

Eviolite Mienfoo

236 SpA Life Orb Elekid Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Offensive Gligar

236 SpA Life Orb Elekid Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gligar: 26-36 (113 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Eviolite Pawniard

0- Atk Life Orb Elekid Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive Gligar

236 SpA Life Orb Elekid Hidden Power Ice vs. 156 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 21-26 (84 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


Life Orb Elekid is extremely strong. One of Little Cup's biggest threats, Gligar, is OHKO by Life Orb Hidden Power Ice. Defensive Gligars with much HP or Special Defense EVs can survive it, but they are pretty rare. But that's not the only thing Elekid can do. Psychic OHKO most Mienfoos, Cross Chop OHKO Pawniard and STAB Thunderbolt for everything else.

Elekid with Timid outspeeds everything in the tier that's not Scarfed, except Voltorb, which also hits 20 Speed. The only problem with Elekid is it's horrible Defense. Because of that, it's very weak to priority Sucker Punch. It also has a hard time to break through Chinchou and many walls. Elekid is because of that not "good enough" for S-Rank or A-Rank. But it should atleast be B-Ranked, or maybe even A before Swirlix and Gligar is banned.

pawniard KOes easily with sucker punch, so that's irrelevant, and mienfoo doesn't run that spread lol, it runs HP and some sdef sometimes, but just HP is enough to avoid the OHKO and KO with drain punch. the only pokémon it really threatens is gligar, and it's only a check, since you can't switch into it. it's a pokémon that has a niche, but doesn't do much else apart from that, AKA the definition of a C-rank.

 

[Shouting]

I think we sell Elekid a bit short in this metagame, not that I agree with moving it up or anything, but it does way more than just revenge kill Gligar without a scarf. It hits all of the regen core for SE whch means it threatens it a lot of teams. Elekid can 2HKO or OHKO Slowpoke, Foongus, and Mienfoo which are very common on teams. Add those three to a potential Tirtouga, Gligar or Murkrow and you have a team that has some difficulty with Elekid.

It is very weak to priority though, which is a shame but Sub is actually kinda funny because Murkrow will always Sucker Punch and you can dodge it. It can't even Paralyze Elekid. It may not have an enormous damage output, but it definitely has what it needs. It 2HKO's Spritzee after stealth rock, and Foongus isn't even a check because Thunderbolt + Psychic will almost always KO. Timburr is OHKO'd with a bit of prior damage and mach punch doesn't do that much.

Again, not saying it's great or anything, but better than what apt gave it credit for imo.

 

[Aerow]

That's why I said "The only problem with Elekid is it's horrible Defense. Because of that, it's very weak to priority Sucker Punch". But I wouldn't say Elekid is easily OHKO by Sucker Punch from Pawniard. I calculated, and I get this with Pawniard and Max Attack:

236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 16-21 (84.2 - 110.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

50/50 if it would be knocked out by Sucker Punch or not, if Elekid has full health. I wouldn't call that "easily". This was with 9 HP IVs, with 31HP IVs, it's only 6.3% chance. Cross Chop from Elekid with Timid nature, is guaranteed OHKO, even with 196 Defense EVs on Pawniard.

With 36 Special Defense EVs on Mienfoo, it's only 6.3% chance for OHKO, yes. But there are many people that uses 36 EVs on Defense instead and 236 on Speed and Attack, or not using Eviolite. So Elekid doesn't OHKO all Mienfoos, but it can OHKO many. That's what I have experienced.

So Elekid can OHKO some Mienfoos, all Pawniards with 31HP IVs and most Gligars. And he can do much more than that too, as Shouting says. Do you really think Elekid is worse than Shellder and Tyrunt, both B-Rank Pokémon?

 

[typon77]

So this list will likely be shaken up greatly by the Gligar and Swirlix bans. For one, I'd like to see some discussion about Carvahna for S-Rank. With Swirlix gone, it is now the best cleaner in the tier, and it now doesn't have to deal with Swirlix surviving all of its moves and KOing it. I thought it might have been worthy of S before, but now I feel that it probably should be. However, I'd like to see some other opinions on this as well, as I could be missing something about Carvahna in general.

 

[Darkamber8828]

fighting-types will be much more common, since gligar + swirl both screwed them

 

[Wobbyble]

I dont understand how banning Gligar makes Carvanha stronger, one of Carvanha's main selling points was threatening and OHKOing the 40% usage poke. As darkamber said, fighting types are going to get stronger which does nothing good for our fast fishy.

Aerow, if there's any reason for Elekid to be B tier, its not for its sweeping power, its for its offensive pivoting power, similar to Chinchou. What I'm saying is, its C tier for the way you're using it, because its very difficult to actually do any sweeping with Elekid. With Eviolite or LO, you should always, always, always, ALWAYS, be running Volt Switch. U Turn and Volt Switch are such inherently strong moves, I don't understand why GF buffed Knock Off, nerfed hidden Power, and then left VoltTurn both at 70 base power. Every single Elekid set should be running this due to how it forces switches. Dealing damage and swapping out at the same time is amazing, and there's no reason to not use this move.

Cross Chop for LO Elekid is pretty bad tbh, Pawniard's Sucker Punch will always OHKO hasty Elekid (well 15/16 but w/e) after one LO recoil, and even if you manage to live Sucker, you will die to LO. Even with Naive/Timid, you can STILL kill yourself in LO recoil. So essentially Cross Chop just makes you trade 1 for 1. IMO Elekid has also just lost a HUGE portion of its niche, being able to force Gligar out/revenging it. Its B rank worth was questionable before, and its definitely not worthy of it now.
But yeah garbagey shit like Tyrunt and Shellder need to be C lol.

 

[acestriker19]

| 194  | Shelmet            |  0.18574% | 239    |  0.242% | 181    |  0.226% |

So am I missing something here? Shelmet is imo actually decently viable in LC, viable enough to warrant more than #194. I'm just going to bulletpoint the positives.

• 50/80/65 bulk boosted by eviolite is decent
• Overcoat makes him able to hard counter Foongus
• Resistance to fighting and a unique defensive typing
• reliable recovery
• access to spikes and encore on the same set thanks to new breeding mechanics
• access to baton pass
• access to yawn too I guess

I feel that both his typing and his movepool give him a small niche in LC. With good prediction he can encore/yawn foes and set up spikes or dry baton pass to gain momentum on the opponent's switch. Shelmet deserves D or maybe even C-rank and he definitely doesn't deserve to be sitting at #194 in usage with the likes of Skitty and Cubchoo. While there are plenty of arguments I can see against Shelemts viability he can effectively support a number of different Pokemon and I don't see him being completely outclassed by any of the options currently in the ranking thread.

 

[Shouting]

I LOVED shelmet in gen 5, it was actually pretty decent. However the knock off buff is what really kills Shelmet. It can no longer deal with Scraggy (and other Fighting types) as well as it used to, and new threats such as Spritzee and Meditite just walk all over him. Spikes and Yawn/Encore is legal now though, so I guess you could argue for high D-rank / low C, but unfortunately Shelmet definitely took a hit this gen.

 

[Wobbyble]

D rank for sure... It has bad defensive typing, is widely outclassed by other walls, and has no offensive presence whatsoever. It's purely set up bait and utility now.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Gligar and Swirlix DID shit on it hard, but it's kind of awful now anyway. Spikes stacking is worthless, its defensive typing is bad outside of a Fighting-resist (who all have Knock Off to 2HKO you after SR or are Pure Power Meditite who shits on everything). I guess you can BP Acid Armor, but honestly just use Curse Torchic or Bulk Up Mienfoo.

 

[rapple]

Dwebble for A rank:
This doesn't need Much explaining pretty much the 3 pokemon that held dwebble back the the most were gligar swirlix and mienfoo. Now that 2 of the 3 have been banned dwebble is a lot more powerful and stands up to tirt a lot more. Oh and btw to all the people who argue that dwebbles lack of priority is critical, dwebble doesn't need priority as much because of it's higher speed.

Edit: Oh, forgot meditate was also a big problem for dwebble, but the argument still stands I think all pokemon are going to have checks and counters for dwebble are really rare.

 

[Wobbyble]

hahahaha TIL dwebble checks are rare LOL
Dwebble checks are common as fuck.

edit: sorry will be less sarcastic in the future

 

[Vileman]

hahahaha TIL dwebble checks are rare LOL

Can you stop treating people as idiots? not everyone has the same experience in lc as you do.
Also on dwebble, sturdyjuice users can revenge kill it easily (magnemite especially), any pokemon with good bulk wont take much from his attacks (munchlax, ferroseed, lickitung) and priority screws him over, so i believe its ok in B rank.

 

[DTC]

Echoing some other posters here: both Pawniard and Misdreavus are worthy of S rank.

Even though Pawniard only has 2 sets, and they use similar moves for the most part, its 2 sets are both really strong. While Timburr and Mienfoo easily counter Pawniard, the problem is you can easily take advantage of this with your other Pokemon. Timburr and Mienfoo getting their item Knocked Off means something like Tirtouga or Carvanha has a much easier time sweeping. It's really hard for the opponent to avoid this too; if they switch in something that isn't Timburr / Mienfoo, they're making a risk, as not many other Pokemon reliably check Pawniard. It can also be a nice revenge killer and is one of the few good SR setters in the current meta.

Misdreavus however is pretty hard to reliably deal with. While Knock Off hurts it, it's pretty strong after a Nasty Plot with 19 Speed, and aside from Shadow Ball, you don't know what moves it has. It could have Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Fighting, Substitute, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, or even Destiny Bond. Misdreavus isn't even one of those frail setup sweepers either; 60 / 60 / 85 bulk with a Ghost-typing is very good for an offensive Pokemon, you just have to make sure you aren't setting up on something that is strong that has Knock Off. It's also amazing at crippling stuff with Will-o-Wisp, which is part of what makes it hard to deal with.

 

[Caledrith]

I'm here to say a few things. First, Wobby, we love you, and love how good you are at LC, but please, don't treat people like they're idiots. You're far more knowledgeable than most of us, but its not right to be completely rude to everyone, especially newer users.

Second, I think that Titties, Missy, and Pawn are definately the S rank pokemon. Missy has several viable sets, one of my favorite being the eviolite set, which can avoid being 2HKO by Mienfoo, and I'm not sure about Zen headbutt from Titties. Titties wrecks everything in sight with its huge coverage, and the lack of a need for a LO FO+BP Set with Swirlix gone. Pawniard is the Knock Off King, so... he's really REALLY strong.

Edit: I forgot to mention Murkrow. He's a beast. I've been in LC since Gen 5, and I was SOOO sick of Murkrow. The raw power it has, and the different viable sets it has, is insane. I... hate this pokemon more than any other, even gligar and swirlix.

 

[typon77]

I dont understand how banning Gligar makes Carvanha stronger, one of Carvanha's main selling points was threatening and OHKOing the 40% usage poke. As darkamber said, fighting types are going to get stronger which does nothing good for our fast fishy.

Aerow, if there's any reason for Elekid to be B tier, its not for its sweeping power, its for its offensive pivoting power, similar to Chinchou. What I'm saying is, its C tier for the way you're using it, because its very difficult to actually do any sweeping with Elekid. With Eviolite or LO, you should always, always, always, ALWAYS, be running Volt Switch. U Turn and Volt Switch are such inherently strong moves, I don't understand why GF buffed Knock Off, nerfed hidden Power, and then left VoltTurn both at 70 base power. Every single Elekid set should be running this due to how it forces switches. Dealing damage and swapping out at the same time is amazing, and there's no reason to not use this move.

Cross Chop for LO Elekid is pretty bad tbh, Pawniard's Sucker Punch will always OHKO hasty Elekid (well 15/16 but w/e) after one LO recoil, and even if you manage to live Sucker, you will die to LO. Even with Naive/Timid, you can STILL kill yourself in LO recoil. So essentially Cross Chop just makes you trade 1 for 1. IMO Elekid has also just lost a HUGE portion of its niche, being able to force Gligar out/revenging it. Its B rank worth was questionable before, and its definitely not worthy of it now.
But yeah garbagey shit like Tyrunt and Shellder need to be C lol.

I never said anything about Gligar being banned making Carvanha stronger? I said that Gligar and Swirlix have been banned, and the Swirlix banning helps Carvanha in multiple ways, as it lost one of its best checks and its now the best late game cleaner.