SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[sacredmareep]

So anything remotely luck based should be completely removed and purged despite this being commonplace in rpgs and settigns similar to this.
That is bull.
I get the concept behind banning stuff like double team because it has a large distribution, lack of solid counters, and just slows down gameplay, but this goes beyond preserving the metagame and just being upset that you can't completely control every single thing in the game and blame every fuckup on inane shit.
I hate those guys that complain about "durr lets bring a really weak or niche to counter *insert supect mon*, but this is just getting ridiculous.
Personnally, while swagplay is mildy annoying at best and downright infuriating at worst, it's a rather niche and limited to the likes of klefki and liepard.Yet, I still think the strategy can still be counered, and what you guys are doing is completely stripping away not only the fun of pokemon , but the fun of smgoon by turning an exciting game with limited, but still present luck into a dry chess game without the psychological intrigue.
Another point still stands, why not go further to ban Critdra, or Paraflinch?

 

[CL0V3R]

Unlike Double Team, however, SwagPlay does not require you to use incredibly niche stuff like Aerial Ace and Swift. You could use any of a number of walls that do practically no damage to themselves with Confusion (Rotom-W in particular is great anyway), and if you want a more offensive answer you could always run your own Prankster (Thundurus-I comes to mind) with Taunt or Substitute. Basically, there are a variety of good ways to handle it, unlike evasion and Moody.


4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 106-126 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 87-103 (32.1 - 38%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO

While Espeon can do nothing back, Xatu has just an 8% chance to 2HKO with Heat Wave, and Absol can't touch it without running Fire Blast.

Switch out after. Their pokemon is now confused and they're either forced to switch out or try it again while being confused.
You're not even including the possible magic coat users. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Magic_Coat_(move)

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

I know Smogon does not favor complex bans most of the time, but this time it is merited,

• ban the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster (complex ban)

The only reason why swagplay is even a thing is because enough Prankster pokemon learn Swagger and/or Paralysis which just makes the luck part even more apparent. Regardless of how Swagger is used outside of these teams, we do not want to send a wrong message that we think Swagger by itself is broken, or that we want to limit it's potential future use if any because we are stiff about considering complex bans. Just like what we did with the Endless clause and did not ban Leppa berry alone, we should do the same thing here.

As for strategy (Swagplay) itself:

A) Blah Blah Blah switch: Yes, just switch until your whole team is paralyzed and then you only need to swagger from now on or use Substitute until you can't move that turn, genius.

B) Ground types! Air ballon, flying pranksters, Body slam, Swagger making them hit themselves extremely hard such that a subsequent foulplay will most likely kill them immediately, etc.

C) Sylveon, Numel, etc.: Non OU pokemon being used for the chance of successfully countering a random swagplay team at the cost of using better pokemon for the tasks at hand.

D) tl;dr You're all being whiny idiots and Smogon is too banhappy. Don't ban anything: Go back to youtube.

sylveon is currently ou because it is a fucking cleric.

 

[TROP]

Because I can, posting a fourth option:
Ban Swagger + Foul play
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-40316103
This replay should be enough to explain why.

And anything that allow worse players to beat good players relying mostly on luck should never be allowed to exist if there is a way to eliminate it without totally changing the game.

 

[aVocado]

It's an unhealthy tactic that doesn't have a place in a competitive metagame like Smogon's. Swagger by itself is fine, Confuse Ray by itself is fine, and the Pokemon who abuse SwagPlay are fine - so I support the second option, the complex ban of Swagger in conjunction with Prankster. Parafusion has been a legit strategy and some Pokemon can make use of it correctly (Lanturn, anyone?), but Prankster combined with Swagger, Thunder Wave and Foul Play is just too much.

 

[Nysyr]

Aj, the point of it is coinflips. See gen 5 sandveil/snowcloak bans.

Also The given options aren't the answer.

A confusion clause not allowing Primary effect Confusion moves is the way to go. Flatter, Confuseray, and Swagger. This leaves Dynamic punch and Chatter alone.

 

[ClashMech]

Switching in standard play is totally fine, but if you want to stall a Swagplay team out of its Swaggers then that's a 144+ (6*24) turn match of switching, and of course if you do it constantly they will start switching themselves,

Then you can start predicting their switches, hit them, and take their pokemon down.

or hitting your Pokémon with Foul Play.

That means that they aren't using swag anymore, taking out the luck aspect you hate, and you can start hitting them.

I don't know about you but I think that's a massive waste of time.

Should we ban all things that take time?

I used to think we shouldn't ban it, but frankly when you're having to deal with people using this nonsense non-strategy even high up on the ladder when you're going for reqs, you'll realise it's not worth it for any serious player. There are literally people who are laddering constantly with teams like these, hundreds of games, and on less popular ladders like the suspect ladder you could come against this same troll and his SwagPlay team 5 times in a day.

what is own tempo

Let's not pretend it's comparable to critical hits, which are only 1/16 and prepared for in the course of normal teambuilding

Some moves have a higher crit rate, you probably already know this, same with items, etc etc; it still doesn't change the fact that it is luck based.

What do you gain with a good move if you aren't able to use because of priority?

It doesn't completely shut you down. You still have ways to act against it.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

This is just silly. Swagplay is annoying yes, but is a random gamble for both players that can be beat my many common pokemon and moves. Doing this would only invoke a slippery slope of weeding out other "unfair luck" such as Paraflinch and Brightpowder.

 

[dedic]

i would have to disagree with the banning of this mix [I do not use it myself] i have no problem with this strategy being used on me, there are plenty ways around it.The obvious one would be run a cleric or switch your pokemon if its confused or eletric/ground [if its t wave abuse] pokemon. It's not rocket science. Feel free to disagree with me.In gen 5 the OU was awesome but now Gen 6 is here smogon has gone mad with banning pretty much everything that isn't from a set cookie cutter team.

This switching argument isn't a very good one because every time you send out a mon they're getting para'd or hit with foul play. And if the SwagPlay user was able to lay hazards then you're taking damage each time you switch.

 

[sidakarya]

Doesn't matter, if it is included in this, it's the same strategy, just with their own flinching > confusion, they're really not different.

It's actually not. Paraflinch Togekiss for example is hugely vulnerable to Electric-types (Rotom-W, Thundurus...) because its whole strategy revolves around spamming a resisted move and a status, by which Electric-types are unaffected. The same goes for Jirachi to some extent. They both have fairly average speeds at 80 and 100, and max speed investment can only do so much, especially against Electrics and Grounds.

Skymin is the exception, but it has that blazing-fast speed to distinguish itself and another hugely annoying effect in Seed Flare + Serene Grace, which it could use to wear down checks. It also had wide coverage for Electrics and other STAB resists.

 

[CL0V3R]

What do you mean??? Foul play doesn't get bounced. Xatu, Absol, Deoxys, and Espeon don't need to be at +2 to get hurt by foul play. Swagger, sure, but foul play handles counters and checks to Swagger.

Switch out after the magic bounce. Then opponents pokemon is now confused, they are either forced to switch out, or deal with their own pokemon hurting it's self in confusion.

Again no one is really thinking about mirror coat? Or carrying a lum berry?

 

[skies]

I'm just going to say, that this is a luck based "strategy" and saying it's bad because it is luck based is not a valid argument in my eyes. Pokemon is a luck based strategy game. It just so happens, this is a strategy you have to have Substitute, Taunt, or Magic Bounce/Coat to use, but Substitute isn't perfect, as some things would rather not be losing 25% of their health to specifically counter this. Taunt is also hard,a s you have to rely on not hitting yourself with confusion, but then the SwagPlay mon can switch to another one to keep it going, and that's not good. Magic Bounce is hard, as Foul Play users defeat all of them except Absol, who takes up a Mega and isn't even good.

 

[Ryolain]

what is own tempo

If you're really expecting me to start running a fucking Lickilicky on my team because it can get around SwagPlay and you're ready to call that reasonable, I don't think you understand the purpose of these bans.

 

[skies]

It's actually not. Paraflinch Togekiss for example is hugely vulnerable to Electric-types (Rotom-W, Thundurus...) because its whole strategy revolves around spamming a resisted move and a status, by which Electric-types are unaffected. The same goes for Jirachi. They both have fairly average speeds at 80 and 100, and max speed investment can only do so much, especially against Electrics and Grounds.

Skymin is the exception, but it has that blazing-fast speed to distinguish itself and another hugely annoying effect in Seed Flare + Serene Grace, which it could use to wear down checks. It also had wide coverage for Electrics and other STAB resists.

True, but they all have the option to choose a Choice Scarf, meaning the opponent doesn't have an option but to hop to not get paralyzed.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Switch out after. Their pokemon is now confused and they're either forced to switch out or try it again while being confused.
You're not even including the possible magic coat users. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Magic_Coat_(move)

I didn't use Magic Coat because literally the only thing that uses it competitively is Deoxys, who gets hit pretty hard by Foul Play. However, the point about their Prankster being forced out is pretty good - until they bring in another one to start spamming Foul Play. Or they could predict the fairly obvious switch and go for Substitute. Basically, they're not as solid answers as just using stuff like Rotom-W that doesn't care about confusion.

EDIT:

You're talking about Shaymin-S, right? Shaymin has natural cure.

Skymin = Shaymin-S

 

[skies]

You're talking about Shaymin-S, right? Shaymin has natural cure.

He said Skymin.

 

[pick]

If you're really expecting me to start running a fucking Lickilicky on my team because it can get around SwagPlay and you're ready to call that reasonable, I don't think you understand the purpose of these bans.

what is lilligant

 

[Impractical]

"hello everyone, my name is blissey, i have natural cure and can reliably beat swaggerplay"

all of you need to git gud

use ground types or electric types since they can't be paralyzed

magnezone has fucklow attack and can trap and kill klefki

use infiltrator

use sound moves

there is so much that can stop swaggerplay

you can stop swaggerplay by switching most of the time

swagger + foul play is an actual strategy, you can't fucking ban that because you're buttmad

 

[Ryolain]

True, but they all have the option to choose a Choice Scarf, meaning the opponent doesn't have an option but to hop to not get paralyzed.

If they use a Choice Scarf they can only use one move…so they're not gonna be able to do Twave -> Air Slash/Iron Head.

 

[114]

It's not like moody where it's luck based and effective. Swagplay simply isn't that good.... except on klefki, who can fucking get 3 layers of spikes. And maybe thundurus which will probably get banned eventually. The rest of swagplay tactics are fine, because they suck. Liepard sucks. Sableye is not broken with confuse ray. It's a legitimate strategy.

Suspect klefki and/or thundurus if appropriate. No to confusion clause or banning a perfectly viable move. Confusion is strategic just like paralysis is strategic. Swagplay on Klefki might be broken, but the strategy is not. Luck is part of the game, but perhaps not to the level of nuisance that klefki brings. It can be compared to wobbafett - not necessarily broken, but uncompetitive.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

It makes me sad that enough people would use this to warrant a ban. It basically shows that there are many bad players who realise they have more chance winning with luck than skill. Obviously there are a certain amount of trolls that use this (the_iron_kenyan) but there are a good number that genuinely think it is a good strategy and don't care about/understand how uncompetitive it is (themantyke)

It shouldn't be necessary but these sub standard players make it so that banning the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster is perfectly reasonable, there really are no good reasons not to unless you think winning with luck is a good metagame.

 

[Stein]

This switching argument isn't a very good one because every time you send out a mon they're getting para'd or hit with foul play. And if the SwagPlay user was able to lay hazards then you're taking damage each time you switch.

what is Landorus. what is defog what is rapid spin. what is own tempo.

 

[Ryolain]

what is lilligant

An RU Poke that has no place being used in OU just to beat this stupid strategy. Next question?

 

[pick]

An RU Poke that has no place being used in OU just to beat this stupid strategy. Next question?

what is numel

 

[sparktrain]

I know Smogon does not favor complex bans most of the time, but this time it is merited,

• ban the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster (complex ban)

The only reason why swagplay is even a thing is because enough Prankster pokemon learn Swagger and/or Paralysis which just makes the luck part even more apparent. Regardless of how Swagger is used outside of these teams, we do not want to send a wrong message that we think Swagger by itself is broken, or that we want to limit it's potential future use if any because we are stiff about considering complex bans. Just like what we did with the Endless clause and did not ban Leppa berry alone, we should do the same thing here.

As for strategy (Swagplay) itself:

A) Blah Blah Blah switch: Yes, just switch until your whole team is paralyzed and then you only need to swagger from now on or use Substitute until you can't move that turn, genius.

B) Ground types! Air ballon, flying pranksters, Body slam, Swagger making them hit themselves extremely hard such that a subsequent foulplay will most likely kill them immediately, etc.

C) Sylveon, Numel, etc.: Non OU pokemon being used for the chance of successfully countering a random swagplay team at the cost of using better pokemon for the tasks at hand.

D) tl;dr You're all being whiny idiots and Smogon is too banhappy. Don't ban anything: Go back to youtube.

Edit: Haunter should add in the OP the chances of hitting after a paralysis and confusion, and that's without taking into account an enemy behind subs.

I think this make sense. I'm personally in favor of altering it to: "ban confusion moves (Swagger, Confuse Ray, Flatter, etc.) in conjunction with the ability Prankster." Even though the other moves are much more rarely seen, they have the same general effect: letting games come down to coinflips. Prankster+Swagger sucks the most, but if this really does get banned, I think it should definitely be extended to Prankster+Confusion.