XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Kingpoleon]

One of the biggest draws to using blastoise is that it's the best offensive spinner out there: it's not /completely/ realistic, rather, it's unrealistic to expect that blastoise will run 4 coverage moves.

Usually Ice Beam is the casualty of placing Rapid Spin on Blastoise, but lately I'm wondering if it's really the best choice. ...
now to wait for some (BAN ME PLEASE) to nitpick that rapid spin is actually an attack

Rapid Spin is an attack, and could be used to 2HKO Sash deo-s with Dark Pulse+Rapid Spin. I did it once. So much fun.

In all seriousness, Aura Sphere>Ice Beam 75% of the time. Other than that, I agree. Aura Sphere hits more S/A Pokemon than Ice Beam Super-Effectively, I think.

 

[Garchomp for president]

Serously, Gligar is C-? It takes on nearly any physical attack from any attack in the tier.

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252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 138-163 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 78-93 (23.3 - 27.8%) -- 76.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 112-133 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 127-150 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 240-288 (71.8 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[4 TIMES SUPER EFFECTIVE]

It has access to Roost, Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Toxic, and Defog. With titanic physical defense it should never be in C-. Immunity is also a great option to avoid Toxic Stalling. It may not have the best Special typing or Stats, and its not like it should be in A+ rank, but at least make it B+ to B-.

 

[Jvasss]

There is quite a high chance for gligar to be 2hkoed by darmanitans flare blitz if rocks are up. The relatively uncommon life orb set also cleanly 2hkos, and adamant CAN 2hko even without rocks. Gligar isn't that good

 

[DiscoDucky]

Serously, Gligar is C-? It takes on nearly any physical attack from any attack in the tier.

Hide

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 138-163 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 78-93 (23.3 - 27.8%) -- 76.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 112-133 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 127-150 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Gligar: 240-288 (71.8 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[4 TIMES SUPER EFFECTIVE]

It has access to Roost, Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Toxic, and Defog. With titanic physical defense it should never be in C-. Immunity is also a great option to avoid Toxic Stalling. It may not have the best Special typing or Stats, and its not like it should be in A+ rank, but at least make it B+ to B-.

First off, Dragonite and Weavile are OU and BL respectively, so showing calcs for either of them is irrelevant. Second, if you pay attention to the metagame a.k.a. the first page of this thread, you can see that a majority of the S and A Pokemon are Specially based. Keldeo, Kyurem, Reuniclus, Celebi, Hydreigon, etc. all beat Gligar's ass in. Furthermore, the increased prevalence of Knock Off threatens his longevity as a Eviolite wall. Gligar can no longer switch into Pokemon like Machamp and Mienshao for fear of a Knock Off from either of them. Even back in Gen V UU, Gligar usage fell after Sand was banned and was only really a novelty pick. Gligar sufficiently fits the definition of C rank.

Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

Can Gligar be effective with the right support? Certainly.

Crippling flaw? Reliance on Eviolite and an overly Special-oriented metagame that his Special Defense cannot deal with.

Completely eclipsed? Not necessarily, but there are a lot of S and A Pokemon that can do his job better. Mega-Aggron is a much better Defensive tank with access to hazards and much better Defense. Defensive Zapdos can pretty much counter most of his checks and can sustain well too. The only selling point I see on it is Immunity, but it doesn't make up for his other flaws.

 

[Garchomp for president]

Sorry I have no idea where the Dragonite Calc came from, but the Weavile was an accident. So first, this is excatly why Gligar is not A/S rank, But a teammate with a decent Special Defense clears nearly any problem you can have with Gligar. Slowbro, Florges, and Suicune are suitable teammates. Also Jvass, LO Darmanitan is outsped by Zapdos, Victini, Keldeo, Jirachi, and Celebi. The latter 2 can simply U-Turn Out, while the former can massively damage or even KO.

 

[Shiruba]

Can someone tell me why Gatr's ranked? Nothing against him, he's a cool 'mon, I'm just curious as to why he's mentioned here - don't think he was last gen [could be wrong, of course].

Swords Dance? Dragon Dance? No Sheer Force unfortunately, but Torrent's still alright. Does he go on rain teams, or just any offensively-inclined team? I've just literally never seen him except in BW RU and in some Ubers [lol] matches.

 

[Jvasss]

Also Jvass, LO Darmanitan is outsped by Zapdos, Victini, Keldeo, Jirachi, and Celebi. The latter 2 can simply U-Turn Out, while the former can massively damage or even KO.

I used lo darmanitan quite a bit and it is really good. You can bluff the scarf and pair it with an alternate revenge killer and it works really well the fact remains that gligar can be 2hkoed after rocks by one of the most common physical attackers in the tier, ie it isn't very good

I used gatr last gen with crunch waterfall eq and dragon dance. If you managed to get 2 dds you pretty much had a clean sweep. Not sure how good it is this gen, haven't used it. It was also really good in ru but that isn't really relevant

 

[TheTraininator]

Mega Aero needs to go up in ranking, at least to A-, maybe A.

With Adamant nature he basically has base 153 attack and 131 speed for a Jolly nautred Pokemon, (technically in-between base 131 and 132,) and an assload of coverage, a lot of which is boosted by Tough Claws, such as the Fangs, Aqua Tail, Earthquake, and Aerial Ace. He outspeeds pretty much everything relevant in the tier bar Mega-Manetric, (who can be affected by Sticky Web, while Aero can't,) and does a shit-ton to most everything. Even maximally invested physically bulky Hippowdon can't switch in safe, as it can be 2HKO'd by Aqua Tail after Stealth Rocks (factoring in Lefties of course,) a 2HKO guaranteed by adding a single layer of Spikes to that.

 

[Demoness]

Nitpick: Earthquake isn't boosted by Tough Claws.

 

[Pancham]

Damn. Homeboy Shaymin is moving up these ranks.

TheTraininator the main problem with Mega Aero is the fact that it's main choices for attacking, Stone Edge and Earthquake, aren't powered up by Tough Claws, while it's weaker secondary STAB Aerial Ace and weak coverage moves, Crunch and elemental fangs, are. If only Aero got Brave Bird and Head Smash, maybe U-turn, too.

Garchomp for president So Gligar has already been touched up on by previous posters, but yah, Gligsr relies too heavily on holding Eviolite to be able to check the things it does, and in a tier where Knock Off is spammed everywhere, that's not a great trait to have. Also, let's not forget this tier is heavily special-based: 4/6 S-rank mons are special oriented, and the two mons that are physical in S-rank, Gligar loses to.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Damn. Homeboy Shaymin is moving up these ranks.

TheTraininator the main problem with Mega Aero is the fact that it's main choices for attacking, Stone Edge and Earthquake, aren't powered up by Tough Claws, while it's weaker secondary STAB Aerial Ace and weak coverage moves, Crunch and elemental fangs, are. If only Aero got Brave Bird and Head Smash, maybe U-turn, too.

I kinda expected it to get one of the two seeing as it has Rock Head as one of its ability but has no recoil moves other than Double Edge by a Gen3 move tutor... If so he would be an UU CharX... But nope.

Ugh, this thing could have so much potential... I guess as of right now it deserves to stay in where it is.

 

[RosebloomNixie]

Where's my BU Gogo(gadget)goat.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Where's my BU Gogo(gadget)goat.

Too slow to catch up and be relelvant in the metagame.

 

[dumbguyfin]

Why is honchkrow only b+ ? It has great attacking stats and Dark/Flying has wide coverage, with its stabs it can hit all S and A rank pokemon at least neutrally, and can ohko many of those. Getting to +1 is also extremely easy thanks to the powerful combination of (predictable) sucker punch and moxie. It needs defog/rapid spin support and is worn down easily thanks to recoil, but that can be said about many threats (like darmanitan). And unlike many others it has a reliable recovery move in roost. Substitute is also useful to prevent status, and it can get a lot of free subs because it forces switches. It also has other option like superpower and mixed set with heat wave and hidden power (grass?) although the mixed set is kinda pointless. With all of those positives i would nominate Honchkrow to A.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Why is honchkrow only b+ ? It has great attacking stats and Dark/Flying has wide coverage, with its stabs it can hit all S and A rank pokemon at least neutrally, and can ohko many of those. Getting to +1 is also extremely easy thanks to the powerful combination of (predictable) sucker punch and moxie. It needs defog/rapid spin support and is worn down easily thanks to recoil, but that can be said about many threats (like darmanitan). And unlike many others it has a reliable recovery move in roost. Substitute is also useful to prevent status, and it can get a lot of free subs because it forces switches. It also has other option like superpower and mixed set with heat wave and hidden power (grass?) although the mixed set is kinda pointless. With all of those positives i would nominate Honchkrow to A.

4mss.
If you want a dark moxie sweeper, Krook does it better. If you want a strong sucker punch, you can use Mega Absol.

Definitely not A. It's hardly a thread with Cobalion running around everywhere. Even Virizion can live +1 adamant LO Sucker Punch from Honk and proceed to knock it out with CC. Hippo can phase before it gets any boost, Suicine can take hits and get off Scalds for a potential burn, Swampert can take hits and Scald/Ice Punch, and Rhyperior just stops it.

 

[dumbguyfin]

4mss.
If you want a dark moxie sweeper, Krook does it better. If you want a strong sucker punch, you can use Mega Absol.

Definitely not A. It's hardly a thread with Cobalion running around everywhere. Even Virizion can live +1 adamant LO Sucker Punch from Honk and proceed to knock it out with CC. Hippo can phase before it gets any boost, Suicine can take hits and get off Scalds for a potential burn, Swampert can take hits and Scald/Ice Punch, and Rhyperior just stops it.

I really dont think that it has that bad of a 4mss, BB/Spunch/sub/roost are enough. And if you have a sub up cobalion and virizion cant switch in at all. Also i wouldnt excatly say that cobalion is running everywhere, i havent seen any after bisharp ban, and virizion is used even less. Hippo and suicune are stops to it, but they also stop many A and S tier pokes like mienshao, Absol, Darmanitan... And in my opinion honchkrow is better sweeper than krookodile thanks to priority, higher attack stat, and better coverage with its stabs (thanks to steel nerf)

 

[UU ALL DAY]

If you run SubRoost, you get walled by Specially/Defensive Zapdos which are quite prevelant, since you can roost stall things out. Cobalion is popular on the ladder because it's anti Florges, one of the "best" UU Poke in the meta. And honk can maybe get 1 kill, but hardly teams gets A rank work done, such as removing key threats. It is strong, but it relies solely on Sucker Punch for its speed, and it is not the end off for wallbreaking.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Why is honchkrow only b+ ? It has great attacking stats and Dark/Flying has wide coverage, with its stabs it can hit all S and A rank pokemon at least neutrally, and can ohko many of those. Getting to +1 is also extremely easy thanks to the powerful combination of (predictable) sucker punch and moxie. It needs defog/rapid spin support and is worn down easily thanks to recoil, but that can be said about many threats (like darmanitan). And unlike many others it has a reliable recovery move in roost. Substitute is also useful to prevent status, and it can get a lot of free subs because it forces switches. It also has other option like superpower and mixed set with heat wave and hidden power (grass?) although the mixed set is kinda pointless. With all of those positives i would nominate Honchkrow to A.

The fact that five of the six current S-rank Pokemon either don't take much from Sucker Punch or just flat-out resist it and can OHKO it in return definitely does not help it achieve that A Ranking.

By saying it's B+, the community acknowledges Honchkrow as a very real threat with pretty big flaws. Most of Honchkrow's gameplay solely relies on Sucker Punch since its Base Speed of 71 (iirc) is just way too slow for it to function as a sweeper otherwise. If you get Honchkrow a KO, he snowballs out of control with stronger Sucker Punches every kill, but if you fail to secure that win condition (which is getting something very low and switching Honchkrow in safely), Honchkrow loses a lot of its battling potential. Furthermore, with this metagame shaping up to be a more balanced metagame, Honch's ability to Moxie Sweep with Sucker Punch diminishes greatly.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

The thing with honk is that brave bird+moxie creates those scenarios where you have no choice but to let it get a moxie boost because there are very few things that can even dare to switch on it AND survive the sucker punch follow up. A +1 honchkrow is nothing to scoff at, even though there are many fighting types capable of revenge kill it, pretty much anything that doesnt resist sucker punch is going to fail doing so. While honchrow has many flaws such as sr weakness and pathetical bulk, its still an insanely powerful threat. Frankly, those ''a is walled by b and c so it sucks'' arguments are really getting old UU ALL DAY. Things arent ranked based on how they do with specific threats, they are ranked based on how they fare against the entire metagame. I dont really have any idea on what rank honchrow should be in but it should be decided more fairly. eaglehawk the metagame is not comprised of solely the 6 pokemon currently at S rank (and some of them dont even deserve to be there anyway), its not fair to ignore the huge amount of threats that honchkrow can destroy in this tier just because they are not at the very top of this thread.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

The thing with honk is that brave bird+moxie creates those scenarios where you have no choice but to let it get a moxie boost because there are very few things that can even dare to switch on it AND survive the sucker punch follow up. A +1 honchkrow is nothing to scoff at, even though there are many fighting types capable of revenge kill it, pretty much anything that doesnt resist sucker punch is going to fail doing so. While honchrow has many flaws such as sr weakness and pathetical bulk, its still an insanely powerful threat. Frankly, those ''a is walled by b and c so it sucks'' arguments are really getting old UU ALL DAY. Things arent ranked based on how they do with specific threats, they are ranked based on how they fare against the entire metagame. I dont really have any idea on what rank honchrow should be in but it should be decided more fairly. eaglehawk the metagame is not comprised of solely the 6 pokemon currently at S rank (and some of them dont even deserve to be there anyway), its not fair to ignore the huge amount of threats that honchkrow can destroy in this tier just because they are not at the very top of this thread.

Can't the same thing be said about Heracross? With a guts or moxie or anything like that, you're basically forced to sack something to Heracross if it runs adamant nature. Sure, Gligar can wall it, but it's the fact that there are pokemon that can check and counter Heracross that make it a non-issue.

The same can be said about Honkcrow. What makes something A-ranked is that it can do exactly what it is supposed to do. With a LO and Adamant Nature, one is forced to play mind-games. SubCM Raikou for example. It can sub on the predicted Sucker Punch, or Thunderbolt on the predicted Brave Bird. Likewise, Suicine can eat up 2 hits and proceed to Scald. The recoil from BB and LO will put it in the range in which Scald will most likely kill.

Honk will not always get to +1, in fact, with threats like Mega-Aggron and the likes being around taking hits from Choice Banded Crawdaunt, I don't see how most teams will lose a Moxie Honk. It relies too much on the user playing with Honk than Honk doing the actual work. This is in great contrast to Mixed Victini. A player can play extremely recklessly and still get kills, ie Rhyperior/Swampert switches in on V-create, then gets popped by Grass Knot. Because of the ease of use, Victini can do its job. If dedicated Physical Walls switch in (one being Zapdos), there is not much Honk can do.

I'm not saying because Honk is easily walled that it's bad, I'm saying that people are coming up with these insane hard hitters being instantly good. Any Moxie Sweeper is good when it is at +1. It's getting to +1 that is always an issue, and even if it is at +1, it usually gets there after taking something that is already on its last legs. I'm not going to switch in a Suicine when I'm at 80% when I have a 13% Victini. I'll let it get that +1 just to revenge it. It makes me have to sack a mon, but a lot of base 125 attack, adamant, LO 120BP moves do that. That's like not having a switch in for Sharpedo, it happens, so you have to sack something in order to get it out of the way, but that is pokemon, no?

 

[Garchomp for president]

Yea thats why I use Band Honk as a Revenge Killer most of the time. I found it hard to sweep with simply becuase its down to mind games like UU ALL DAY said.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Yea thats why I use Band Honk as a Revenge Killer most of the time. I found it hard to sweep with simply becuase its down to mind games like UU ALL DAY said.

I didn't even mention anything about Choice Banding it or it revenging...I am saying that it has to revenge to get to +1. So I disagree with you, you're gonna try to mock me?

If you guys feel so strongly about Honk being A ranked, then by all means. I just think it isn't right for A-ranked, but I'm not gonna be a dick about it. Apparently, when people can't argue, they just call people stupid or resort to mockery. Pokemon 2014

 

[DiscoDucky]

The thing with honk is that brave bird+moxie creates those scenarios where you have no choice but to let it get a moxie boost because there are very few things that can even dare to switch on it AND survive the sucker punch follow up. A +1 honchkrow is nothing to scoff at, even though there are many fighting types capable of revenge kill it, pretty much anything that doesnt resist sucker punch is going to fail doing so. While honchrow has many flaws such as sr weakness and pathetical bulk, its still an insanely powerful threat. Frankly, those ''a is walled by b and c so it sucks'' arguments are really getting old UU ALL DAY. Things arent ranked based on how they do with specific threats, they are ranked based on how they fare against the entire metagame. I dont really have any idea on what rank honchrow should be in but it should be decided more fairly. eaglehawk the metagame is not comprised of solely the 6 pokemon currently at S rank (and some of them dont even deserve to be there anyway), its not fair to ignore the huge amount of threats that honchkrow can destroy in this tier just because they are not at the very top of this thread.

Okay so maybe my point about S Rank is unjustified, but the rest of my argument still stands.

 

[C AllStar]

There is not much about Honchkrow that has not been said. However, I want to emphasize on how high risk it is to use. Honchrow's speed is quite low and is heavily reliant on Sucker Punch, which sucks when prediction failed, to deal with faster targets. However, the majority of faster things in UU either resists it (all S ranks, Keldeo, Heracross, Mega Absol, Krookodile) or are too bulky to care unless severely weakened (Zygarde, Mega Manectric) or at least have ways to avoid it with common sets(WoW/BP Mew, BP Celebi, Sub/Healing Wish Latias, WoW/Sub/Trick Chandelure). It isn't only the S rank mons, but the whole metagame being unfriendly to it. I am not saying it is bad since BB and Sucker Punch creates heavy mindgames that pressurizes the opponent a lot and the things mentioned above are not even close to foolproof answers to Honchkrow. This is what makes it really dangerous. However using it also means that the user has to predict correct every time or it will be screwed due to Honchrow's fraility and insane recoil from BB. I don't really think that it deserves A Rank despite its ability to wreck so much when used correct.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

What set does Toxicroak run that makes it A-? I've not seen any in use yet O.O