SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Kairyu_Gen1]

*Cackles* Oh, boy. I knew that people were getting ticked off about it, but I didn't know that it'd be thrashing people to THIS extent!

We're supposed to be competitive gamers, right? This tactic isn't broken. It can just as easily destroy your opponent as it can you. Is your team particularly vulnerable to it? I have the answer for you:

DEAL WITH IT.

Find something. Things exist. I'm not suggesting crud like Own Tempo, but there's always something that can be done. This doesn't even have the muscle of Speed Boost Blaziken, Xerneas, or freaking Arceus. The opponent is forcing coinflips. In other words, the opponent is taking a serious risk, too. He risks being hoisted by his own petard. So he's taking a gamble.

I, for one, think that if a gamble is being taken, then the gambler should be able to reap the rewards if he succeeds. Forcing a coinflip is forcing chance. That, I believe, is perfectly acceptable. There's always chance. That's part of the game, though. Some say that those chances are different because they "can't be avoided". If those can't be avoided, then why on earth should these? You may be in a bad situation (or just suck at playing), and your opponent can quite probably overcome you. Forcing a coinflip can overcome these odds and achieve a turnabout. Your opponent didn't think of a way to eliminate chance, and now he pays. Alternatively, he did bring a way, and now you're eating dirt... or he didn't bring a way, but he finds a way do outgambit you - y'know, like a good competitive player - and you're still eating crow. Not to mention the possibility that you get hoisted by your own petard.

Others say that "this isn't fair". My response is this question: "what's fair"? Fairness is subjective. I think that this is fair. Some people don't. Likewise, some people think that Serene Grace Jirachi and Togekiss are "fair". Personally, I also believe that they're "fair". However, others don't. For something to be judged on "fairness" is meaningless. The only way to deal with an issue like this is a mass vote. If the majority doesn't want it, tough for some. If the majority wants it, tough for others.

One last thing: if this actually happens while stuff like Jirachi and Togekiss roam free, then I'm going to start laughing.

That's my fifty cents on the issue.

It was only a matter of time, but Paraflinch has been brought up again.

First to shove your 50 cents back down your throat, NOBODY wants coin flips to decide a match except the people who can't win without it. I'm sick and tired of people saying "chance is part of the game." It is, but a strategy wholly dependent on luck and with so sure counters can't be tolerated.

Now that I've done that, GTFO. Paraflinch isn't even in the same league as swagplay. It doesn't matter how lucky you are, Togekiss isn't going to 6-0 anyone but the biggest noobs in the game (I'm not counting its nasty plot set. That could work, but still won't 6-0 pretty much anyone). Priority swagger means that no matter how skilled somebody is, unless they have one of the 2 viable OU counters (and one requires a safe switch in and a coverage move not commonly seen), even the worst player in the world could beat them. Paraflinch is easy to counter with 2 types, 1 of which is very common, and with how easy it is to outspeed either abuser, KOing them is pretty simple. Swagplay may not be at all consistent or realistically dangerous, but letting bad players get cheap wins from luck when they should be trying to win through skill is crap

 

[Petrico94]

The luck that makes this strategy can also break it. While you could theoretically have all six of your pokemon lock downed and Foul Played, you could also avoid hax for three turns, get unconfused, and be halfway through sweeping their team. Luck runs both ways.

So you would rather make the match luck based than use honest competitive pokemon and rely on your ability and team building skill? What if a game like chess worked that way where your opponent had to flip a coin for a knight to take a pawn or be removed?
And before anyone replys, using situational junk that is specifically tailored to counter pranksters and swagger aren't skilled choices, it's preparing for a very specific strategy like using aerial ace and other always hit attacks just to counter evasion sets. In any other scenario, those attacks are out classed by normal 100 or 90 accuracy moves.

 

[indian]

Machamp used Dynamic Punch!
Chatot used Chatter!
(whatever pokemon) used Confuse Ray!
Togekiss/Jirachi used Air Slash/Iron Head!

You sure about that?

aegislash switched in
machamp used dynamic punch. it has no effect.
aegislash got a free switchin and got a free hit on something or even a kill.

On a serious note these moves do not double your attack. also you dont always hit first or get a free substitute. The main culprit is prankster+swagger and people need to understand that. While machamp's dynamic punch may be annoying, it must hit something that it outspeeds (with its 55 speed lol) or a switchin. And even then if the opponent hits next turn you cant just take it with a priority substitute. Same case with chatot. Togekiss and jirachi are annoying as hell but they have designeted counters. Morever thry can be checked by faster pokemon.

 

[aVocado]

In the past Smogon really attempted to create a metagame that was more balanced so that overpowered Pokemon and over powered strategies were banned from standard Pokemon play, but they lived with possibilities that were annoying or luck based. I feel that Smogon has began to change for the good or the bad to remove more luck based strategies from its metagames. While swagplay in combination with prankster is a very annoying strategy for certain teams, it hardly fazes stall teams, or teams that tend to focus on special attacking. This means that swagplay is luck based, in favor of the swagplay team, when the opposing team is very physically offensive. I do not see this play style as overpowering - with smart plays even with offensive teams you still are usually able to handily able to beat this play style. This means, as many of you have often said, that this strategy is up for ban because it does have a luck component to it. Many of the people who want this strategy banned are people that have never used this strategy and just find it as an annoyance that they want to remove. Over the more recent years the Smogon community has really drifted in what they feel is appropriate to ban, and in general has become really ban happy. The Smogon community or perhaps the leaders or the elite of the Smogon community has will decide what should be banned and what should stay, and in general create a metagame that they favor. I just am concerned about when these changes to Pokemon will stop, when will they end? How long will it take for then to be annoyed with paraflinch and then to remove the flinching mechanic as it is luck based, and only especially luck-based against certain team types, similarly to swagplay. How long will it take to remove the full paralysis message as that is likewise luck based? How long will it take to change focus miss into a 100% accuracy move? How long will it take to remove critical hits? While not all of these changes will happen based on Smogon's past (they will never remove accuracy because they have never done that), I feel as if a lot of Smogons ideas come from the fact that they don't want their game to change. Smogon does not like the ideas of Megas being more powerful then other Pokemon. Smogon does not like luck based occurrences from happening (especially the new ones that Gamefreak has just came out with). In general I think many of Smogon elite do not want huge changes in the game as that will take away the advantage they have over newer players: experience. While each new generation might have small twists such as new Pokemon and abilities and now more recently types in general the Smogon metagame has remained very similar to gen 4, when the rise of competitive Pokemon began to happen as well as the physical/special split happened. In the Gamefreak game many huge things have happened that we are not allowed to use and as such we are pulling ourselves away from the real game. I really encourage this community to take changes more openly, to allow for many more new strategies to develop otherwise we will end up with a game that no longer resembles the game that most recently came out. If you are okay with the fact that we no longer have a game that resembles the one we just bought, make all the changes you like.

your post in tl;dr:

are smogon ruining the metagame?

On a more serious note, smogon hasn't banned SwagPlay before 6th gen (or more like, SwagPlay wasn't popular before 6th gen) because Klefki didn't exist in the past and Thundurus was banned. Now, Klefki is a thing, and Thundurus is unbanned, and so the strategy has two more Pokemon that can easily abuse it.

Paraflinching (or flinching in general) isn't an issue because Jirachi and Togekiss have to keep using a single move to flinch, Iron Head and Air Slash, respectively. Steel is a poor offensive typing and Air Slash isn't really all that powerful, so that's why they're not really comparable to SwagPlay, which can pretty much literally win against every single Pokemon, including 0IV/negative-natured Chansey/Blissey.

It's not luck that makes SwagPlay an issue, it's the fact that it blatantly ignores skill and instead turns the entire game into a rock-paper-scissors equivalent.

 

[Petrico94]

Machamp used Dynamic Punch!
Chatot used Chatter!
(whatever pokemon) used Confuse Ray!
Togekiss/Jirachi used Air Slash/Iron Head!

You sure about that?

You're right, right after this lets work on whether to ban Serene Grace. Chatter really only has one user who is barely useful with or without it and atleast it and confuse ray don't boost attack. Dynamic punch requires No Guard which also has almost no speedy users and is actually a fix to the normal accuracy system. I would like to see more pokemon use no guard focus blast if it meant fire blast would hit them 100%.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The luck that makes this strategy can also break it. While you could theoretically have all six of your pokemon lock downed and Foul Played, you could also avoid hax for three turns, get unconfused, and be halfway through sweeping their team. Luck runs both ways.

The problem is that Swagger forces the opponent to take this risk, not you. That's the whole point of this suspect.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Yes I am serious, with all the talk of confuse paralyze now is a good time to discuss the paralyze+60% flinch strategy used by the new OU fairy Togekiss and bring Jirachi's entire being into question. But lets see how this ends first...

That's it, I'm done. GG everybody! You've officially driven me insane! I guess all this talk of swagger has gotten me confused.

Oh no, I just made a pun, and a lousy one at that. I'm gonna switch out to cure myself. I'll be back tomorrow. Maybe by then mods will have made an executive decision.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

The problem is that Swagger forces the opponent to take this risk, not you. That's the whole point of this suspect.

But you are talking the risk if you Swagger. 55% chance it blows up in your face.

 

[Petrico94]

But you are talking the risk if you Swagger. 55% chance it blows up in your face.

So 50% you fucked up a skill based game and won, 50% you just gave them a x2 attack boost and sent out a dark type with half of its move pool wasted. BUT, then you send out Ditto to copy their stats and get the bonus back with more speed. So no, it doesn't blow up in your face, it falls on the floor for your dog to eat and fix everything for you.

 

[termi]

Swagger:
- No fun allowed (remember why you're playing Pokemon? Uhhh I'm pretty sure it had something to do with fun)
- If you win, you're lucky, if you lose, you're not lucky (remember how we're playing competitive Pokemon? Winning or losing matches based on coinflips 100% of the time is not competitive at all and shows that you're just a really fucking bad player that you rely on luck to win matches)
- Actual counters to this cancerous non-strategy do not exist and if they do, they're probably unviable vs anything that's not SwagPlay (so if you're going to suggest that it can be prepared for, well yeah, everything can be prepared for, it's jsut that you can't prepare for everything and why would you prepare yourself for something that relies entirely on luck? (see: evasion moves (HEY GUYS LETS RUN AERIAL ACE ON EVERY POKEMON AMIRITE)))
- Swagger is never used competitively because it's simply usually not worth the risk unless you build your entire team around it, and building your entire team around it means you want to win by having luck (raise your hand if you'd actually mourn the loss of swagger (people who use the swagplay non-strategy themselves don't count))

BAN SWAGGER (and everyone who bothers defending it imo)

 

[ace combat]

your post in tl;dr:

are smogon ruining the metagame?

On a more serious note, smogon hasn't banned SwagPlay before 6th gen (or more like, SwagPlay wasn't popular before 6th gen) because Klefki didn't exist in the past and Thundurus was banned. Now, Klefki is a thing, and Thundurus is unbanned, and so the strategy has two more Pokemon that can easily abuse it.

Paraflinching (or flinching in general) isn't an issue because Jirachi and Togekiss have to keep using a single move to flinch, Iron Head and Air Slash, respectively. Steel is a poor offensive typing and Air Slash isn't really all that powerful, so that's why they're not really comparable to SwagPlay, which can pretty much literally win against every single Pokemon, including 0IV/negative-natured Chansey/Blissey.

It's not luck that makes SwagPlay an issue, it's the fact that it blatantly ignores skill and instead turns the entire game into a rock-paper-scissors equivalent.

I never said that swagplay was banned or even suggested to be banned before 6th gen (it wasn't even possible before 5th gen), nor was that the point of my post. I honestly don't understand what you mean by: "It's not luck that makes SwagPlay an issue, it's the fact that it blatantly ignores skill and instead turns the entire game into a rock-paper-scissors equivalent," because you pretty much said that it its not luck that makes it broken, but it's because makes the game luck.... The reason why skill can triumph over luck with this strategy is because you can remove the effects of confusion by switching out, and smart playing can let you develop a strategy to beat a team using swagplay, so its not as entirely random as you describe. Its also very difficult to take out Chansey/Blissey with swagplay because both the confusion and the paralysis are going to be removed by switching out, and honestly you have to be playing pretty stupid if you let them paralyze you, and confuse you so that you are at +6 attack, which is what makes them such a good example why this strategy is entirely stoppable because they cannot confuse you or paralyze you forever as they will run out of pp. Back to the point of which I was saying, I meant that it really is up to Smogon to decide what they want to ban or what they do not want to ban, but if they ban too many things (and more recently this has become more prevalent), they will limit available strategies and not have a game that resembles the original. It is Smogon's choice of the game that they want to make and it is up to them to decide what is allowed and what is not.

On a more off topic matter (and one that I hope I do not get infracted for addressing) is that I think that Smogon has become much more ban happy ever since they allowed people voting rights if they got certain stats. I feel many people that were just able to obtain these stats really based their vote on what they used on their teams. If a Pokemon was up for ban and they did not use it but they found it annoying, whether it was really broken or not, they would vote to ban this. While I realize that before when only a small group of moderators in Smogon had a vote it was considered too elitist by the general public, the current system has the issue to address which I just mentioned. While I realize that a community wide poll open to the public is not an appropriate option do to trolls and people voting multiple times (as well as all the junk that you see in this thread), I hope this community can come up with a better system to decide on metagame bans.

(I really think a moderator should limit the number of times people can post in this thread - it should not be a couple of people responding to every post to say stupid things like your post was too long, and this will allow for more opinions to be heard)

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I really don't see how this is at all ban-worthy. It's a gimmicky strategy at best and can be countered.
-Any pokemon with magic bounce ruins the strategy outright
-Pokemon with Lum Berry/Mental Herb can pick up a free +2 and proceed to sweep
-Use defensively bulky Rotom-W to shut them down
-Trick a scarf onto them
-Taunt
-Ignore the status effects and attack anyway
-Use a pokemon with Own Tempo (though not so viable in OU)
-Use a ground type or electric type, ignore the T-wave and confusion and OHKO your opponent

-By definition, swagplay has foul play, which magic bouncers can't stand (except Xatu, but he ain't OU viable)
-They can easily just use it again, but now you have to deal with +4 atk on your self hits. Besides, swagger using up my lum berry sounds a lot like a waste.
-Rotom can even lose if you're lucky enough
-Trick still relies on luck because they'll always move first.
-There's hardly viable priority taunts in OU
-Kill myself in confusion? No thanks.
-Own Tempo is lol
-Ground types aren't immune to confusion

Seriously, have you read this thread? It's full of people proving you and your arguments invalid. There's no sure counter besides thunderus, and nobody's going to run him just because of this, and they shouldn't have to. I'll say it again, even the worst player being able to beat the best from luck is deplorable, and people who think that's ok shouldn't be allowed to speak. I'll concede that this "strategy" has little effect on the game because almost nobody uses it at high levels, and therefore might not be worth a ban, but saying it's good or even not bad for the meta game is incorrect

 

[Anty]

I really don't see how this is at all ban-worthy. It's a gimmicky strategy at best and can be countered.
-Any pokemon with magic bounce ruins the strategy outright
-Pokemon with Lum Berry/Mental Herb can pick up a free +2 and proceed to sweep
-Use defensively bulky Rotom-W to shut them down
-Trick a scarf onto them
-Taunt
-Ignore the status effects and attack anyway
-Use a pokemon with Own Tempo (though not so viable in OU)
-Use a ground type or electric type, ignore the T-wave and confusion and OHKO your opponent

Magic bounce: only viable is espeon, takes ~ 25% from foulplay, can easily be killed.
After the lum is burned, it can be swagged or twaved again. :]
And take a shitton of damage in swag and play
Trick scarf: easier said than done (substitute)
Taunt, tornadus has prankster taunt, and your taunt fails
'Ignore the status effects and attack anyway' - im not even gonna comment on how stupid this is
No viable own tempo-ers
Klefki has great bulk and its gonna swagger on an electric type, not twave.

Anti-banners are suggesting there are lots of pokes that can heck, but theyre not naming any apart from the odd 'numel'. If swagplay forces you to run unviable mons, it should be Banned

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I believe SwagPlay shouldn't be banned; if you check the XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ng-thread-a-and-a-pokemon-discussion.3495992/) you will find that Thundurus-I is one of the five 'S-Rank' Pokémon. It's already been established that Prankster Thundurus-I can easily shut down SwagPlay users, so the obvious solution is: everyone should run Thundurus-I. It's 'S-Rank' and Smogon-approved, so I don't think that there should be any issue with this.

Even S rank pokemon can't be justified to be used on every team. Actually, I don't have a single S rank on any of my teams, and I don't think I should have to just to deal with noobs trying to cheat me out of a win by forcing a coin flip

 

[vyomov]

I believe SwagPlay shouldn't be banned; if you check the XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ng-thread-a-and-a-pokemon-discussion.3495992/) you will find that Thundurus-I is one of the five 'S-Rank' Pokémon. It's already been established that Prankster Thundurus-I can easily shut down SwagPlay users, so the obvious solution is: everyone should run Thundurus-I. It's 'S-Rank' and Smogon-approved, so I don't think that there should be any issue with this.

So you're essentially saying we should force everyone to run Thundurus-I(thus reducing the versatility of the entire meta) rather than ban a highly negative, luck-based element of the meta?

 

[NotSoClutch]

I don't know guys, it's annoying sure, but I've never really had that much trouble with these teams to be honest. Once you understand what each poke on a prankster swag team does, you simply find the counter play. Swagger is god awful, but what exactly is klefki going to do to a gliscor? At +2 gliscor likely OHKOs, so it would either have to test about a 42% chance of not getting KOed or crippled by the gliscor. Liepard also has a similar problem with gliscor. In fact, every prankster user that relies on status struggles against gliscor except for thunderous when carrying hp ice and a correctly constructed gliscor laughes at ditto trying to copy the attack boost. Pokemon with heal bell and a way to recover health are also very helpful especially since many of these mons also resist foul play such as togekiss and sylveon. Sylveon oddly enough can also hit through subs and will cause problems for all except for klefki as many prankster mons are dark type or attack on the special side. I hate seeing people who have to stoop down to the level of swag play to win, but I mean one whimsicott is often enough to shut the whole team down.

 

[Yuy]

You are a troll right

Well he has a point actually. You'll notice in competitive games there's generally a handful of used characters and strategies, which is what I think he was saying. Also, Smogon is an important reference which is why we're all here. So I see his point, and he does have an angle, just don't take it the wrong way. Some people have trouble with their words, I guess.

Also to stay relevent to thread: SwagPlay is fine imo. It's just not a big deal. If anything, I'd probably have a tournament clause for this sort of thing rather than a ladder clause -- But tahat probably opens up a whole new can of worms.

 

[AJC]

swagplay is a dumb way to win but i still feel the same about it i did in gen 5 were it's a shaky but legit way to play the game and shouldn't be banned the swagplay teams that highly ranked are the ones who have been lucky enough to get it to go their way to get that high.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I don't know guys, it's annoying sure, but I've never really had that much trouble with these teams to be honest. Once you understand what each poke on a prankster swag team does, you simply find the counter play. Swagger is god awful, but what exactly is klefki going to do to a gliscor? At +2 gliscor likely OHKOs, so it would either have to test about a 42% chance of not getting KOed or crippled by the gliscor. Liepard also has a similar problem with gliscor. In fact, every prankster user that relies on status struggles against gliscor except for thunderous when carrying hp ice and a correctly constructed gliscor laughes at ditto trying to copy the attack boost. Pokemon with heal bell and a way to recover health are also very helpful especially since many of these mons also resist foul play such as togekiss and sylveon. Sylveon oddly enough can also hit through subs and will cause problems for all except for klefki as many prankster mons are dark type or attack on the special side. I hate seeing people who have to stoop down to the level of swag play to win, but I mean one whimsicott is often enough to shut the whole team down.

Most people don't think it's actually a huge danger, but the fact that there's an actual chance people can win using only luck sickens me.

 

[The Lister Mr.]

ginganinja pls, I have been contributing by stating other threats to our metagame at hand, not just swagger. Get some powder for that rash of yours and let me discuss.

 

[CactusCacti]

Okay guys, okay.
How about you all relax and think about this for a bit:

Are you seriously considering to ban a status that can be gotten rid of by switching just because its annoying.
Annoying. Annoyer that was a role in gen 3, thing that has been considered a gimmick for ages
Because it is is a gimmick.
only because its annoying?

"but muh luck!"
luck is part of the game, any game that has a mechanic for procs and crits without options to make nocrit/nospread/pureskillonly options will always have luck in it, it is a part of the game, RNG is there
sure, people abuse RNG, because it is part of the game. I mean, fuck, if there is a game with a luck based mechanic, there will always be someone to abuse it. Weapon with a proc chance for something nasty tm? Someone is gona try to abuse it. skill with a proc for something annoying? someone will abuse it. Any of you play any competitive card games? Dota? stragety, rpgs, that have proc chance things? you know? think about these.

what, are you gona next consider how annoying stall and shufflers are and then consider banning those?

Bluntly speaking: I think many of you need to take the "skill stick" out of your arses and actually chill to think this over.
Pokemon cannot be pure skill in vanilla settings.

now before you start the evasion preach, take into considerationg: confusion is a thing you can affect without must special preparation.

You have your cleric, ground types, electricts for the paralyzis and im sure you all carry atleast one tank or special attacker that might fit into these. Hell I'm sure many people also carry substitutes, taunters, etc..

just.. C'mon guys.
c'mon.

this is just
close to a new low.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Okay guys, okay.
How about you all relax and think about this for a bit:

Are you seriously considering to ban a status that can be gotten rid of by switching just because its annoying.
Annoying. Annoyer that was a role in gen 3, thing that has been considered a gimmick for ages
Because it is is a gimmick.
only because its annoying?

People have succesfully been abusing this luck-based strategy in official Smogon tournaments. This isn't just some obscure, annoying ladder threat.

 

[The Lister Mr.]

Once upon a time there was a little boy named Timmy. He was a nice little boy who did all his chores and remained well behaved. One day his mother went out and bought him Pokemon Red and a Gameboy. He was overjoyed and thanked his mother for the gift and became hooked on the Pokemon franchise.

Later on, by the time Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire had been released he had decided to dedicate his life to his hobby. He learnt all the secrets of battling perfection, from type match-ups and good movesets to breeding IVs for those perfect pokemon.

After his 19th birthday when Pokemon Black 2 and White 2 were released he had known just about all there is to know about pokemon. He then discovered an online haven just for him: Pokemon Showdown!

Since then little Timmy has been training and using what is now considered Smogon's official Original the Team (do not steal). He had become quite "skilled" as they would say over his years.

One day something was off. Little Timmy had lost a match! He had lost to a Klefki! Timmy just could not wrap his head around how this little creature could win against forces such as Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y.

After some months had passed he noticed something that overfilled him with joy. A thread on the Smogon forums discussing the banning of Swagger. In his ecstatic state he quickly posted about how broken confusion is in an attempt to get it banned so he could once again reign supreme.

And here he is, inside all of those that cried "BANBANBAN" without as much as a thought. What does your Little Timmy say to you about all this? Surely he is in awe at the amount of people supporting this ban. He was always mummy's special little angel after all.

 

[VinnyValient]

I do use the swag foul play combo but I always combine it with a ditto- I sacrifice my sableye and copy their pokemon straight afterwards. Also, prankster swagger is a 50/50 chance to counter a set up pokemon.
If it does get banned i'll either find a way round to keep the swag ditto combo or just give up on it (and i don't want to give up on it.)

I think people just need to learn a way round it. For example, a lot of people hate Whimsicott. I love the pokemon, even when i'm against it because i know what it can do and how to get round it since its movesets are generally the same. Against prankster swagger, you generally already know its moveset so think about it and predict. If your team can't handle it, sort it out and improve your team.

My vote is that it doesn't get banned in anyway since people just need to learn how to counter it just like all the other threats out there.

 

[CactusCacti]

People have succesfully been abusing this luck-based strategy in official Smogon tournaments. This isn't just some obscure, annoying ladder threat.

Geee I wonder if its cause its definatly not up against some very predictable looking teams?