SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[MakaiMai]

I managed to get to page 9 before I decided the rest of the thread is just too painful to read.

I'm one of those folks in favor of banning SwagPlay. I'd like to ask a simple question: Whenever anyone has had to fight a SwagPlay team, were you ever having fun? No, because a feeling of helplessness as you have little control to free yourself from it is not fun. It is inherently frustrating in every single game ever made. Not just Pokemon. I personally lump SwagPlay in a similar boat as Endless Battles, because both are uncompetitive and not fun to play against. Where they differ is the series of coinflips VS the fact that the battle will not end until someone leaves. The only people who could be having fun are the people using the strategy, but I would bet that if they shifted gears to a more normal team on a new alt and met up with an opposing SwagPlay team, they'd be singing a different tune.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

these awful arguments why prankster swagger isn't broken is getting extremely annoying and redundant. Can anyone who is against the ban prove how prankster + swagger is actually improving or is healthy for the meta or actually encourages new sets other than stupid shit like fire gem espeon?

 

[Ryin]

Even though luck is a big part of the game and is impossible to completely remove from play, the use of Prankster Swagger, specially when coupled with Foul Play, is unsportsmanlike conduct (as you make every turn after the confusion is inflicted a coin flip) and is hard to effectively counter, in a way that does not involve being lucky with the confusion turns.

Own Tempo pokemon have batter abilities to run. Magic Bouncers are either weak to Foul Play or have Mega Absol's attack and defense. Lum Berry pokemon can't switch into the Swagger or the potential Thunder Wave after that, leaving your opponent free to maybe use a Substitute. You need a Prankster Taunt pokemon already out to guarantee you won't get confused before taunting or get prankster taunted before taunting. And the few pokemon who don't really care about Confusion damage, don't get/don't care about being paralyzed, don't receive much Foul Play damage and are capable of hurting the prankster, are still subject to losing a lot of turns because of the confusion.

Swagger without Taunt is a riskier seldom seem option that in my opinion doesn't deserve a ban. Banning all the pokemon capable of using Prankster Swagger is overkill. So I believe ban the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster (complex ban) is the best option, and I'd like to add Prankster Confuse Ray and Prankster Flatter to that ban.

 

[Toljik]

I managed to get to page 9 before I decided the rest of the thread is just too painful to read.

I'm one of those folks in favor of banning SwagPlay. I'd like to ask a simple question: Whenever anyone has had to fight a SwagPlay team, were you ever having fun? No, because a feeling of helplessness as you have little control to free yourself from it is not fun. It is inherently frustrating in every single game ever made. Not just Pokemon. I personally lump SwagPlay in a similar boat as Endless Battles, because both are uncompetitive and not fun to play against. Where they differ is the series of coinflips VS the fact that the battle will not end until someone leaves. The only people who could be having fun are the people using the strategy, but I would bet that if they shifted gears to a more normal team on a new alt and met up with an opposing SwagPlay team, they'd be singing a different tune.

I'm one of those folks in favor of banning stall. I'd like to ask a simple question: Whenever anyone has had to fight a stall team, were you ever having fun? No, because a feeling of helplessness as you have little control to overpower Mega-Venusaur is not fun. It is inherently frustrating in every single game ever made. Not just Pokemon. I personally lump stall in a similar boat as Endless Battles, because both are uncompetitive and not fun to play against. Where they differ is the inability to escape from Infestation VS the fact that the battle will not end until someone leaves. The only people who could be having fun are the people using the strategy, but I would bet that if they shifted gears to a more normal team on a new alt and met up with an opposing stall team, they'd be singing a different tune.

Get it? "Fun" is subjective and (as silly as this sounds) not the point of Smogon's rules. There's better arguments for banning Swagger than that.

 

[MakaiMai]

Mega Venusaur is a separate entity entirely and its discussion, and by the same token, Stall, is neither here nor there. Comparing it to SwagPlay is also like comparing an apple with a grapefruit.

 

[Toljik]

Mega Venusaur is a separate entity entirely and its discussion, and by the same token, Stall, is neither here nor there. Comparing it to SwagPlay is also like comparing an apple with a grapefruit.

They're similar in that neither are considered "fun" to play against. That was the point of the post: that we cannot use something as subjective as fun to determine what's banworthy.

 

[Wobbyble]

Stall is fun and challenging to play against. If it's not fun, then it's at least makes you think intuitively. What's the most efficient way to break open their cores? Should I risk double switching because I'm predicting a Blissey switch? Should I go for early hazards, even though their Skarmory definitely has Defog?

I'd rather play with the above questions in mind than going, "GOD FUCK THIS FUCKING KLEFKI."

Playing against stall is like playing a game of chess. Playing against Swagplay is like playing Monopoly.

 

[Baharoth]

I'm one of those folks in favor of banning stall. I'd like to ask a simple question: Whenever anyone has had to fight a stall team, were you ever having fun? No, because a feeling of helplessness as you have little control to overpower Mega-Venusaur is not fun. It is inherently frustrating in every single game ever made. Not just Pokemon. I personally lump stall in a similar boat as Endless Battles, because both are uncompetitive and not fun to play against. Where they differ is the inability to escape from Infestation VS the fact that the battle will not end until someone leaves. The only people who could be having fun are the people using the strategy, but I would bet that if they shifted gears to a more normal team on a new alt and met up with an opposing stall team, they'd be singing a different tune.

Get it? "Fun" is subjective and (as silly as this sounds) not the point of Smogon's rules. There's better arguments for banning Swagger than that.

The big difference is that when playing against stall u can influence the outcome. Ur teamcomposition, the decisions u make etc all that decides whether ur going to lose or win. Against Swagplay there is nothing u can do exept hoping for the right side of the coin. Playing against stall might not be the most fun thing to do but at the end of the day it has something to do with strategy and tactic like pokemon is supposed to. Thats not true for swag play.

 

[Raikaria]

Right, to avoid a Gen 5 scenario where we are banning everything except the ACTUAL issue [See: Rain] I think the best way to look at this is to look at what the problem actually is.

Firstly; the options are:

• ban the move Swagger;
• ban the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster (complex ban);
• ban individual Pokémon that make the strategy effective (Klefki, Liepard etc.).

Now, to do each of these, we should look in isolation:

• ban the move Swagger; - Should not be done full stop, Swagger is not a broken move, and we may as well make a Confusion Clause if this is the case. Swagger is a risk-reward version of Confuse Ray. What about Flatter, which is basically the same move?
  
• ban the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster (complex ban); - Again, this would require a ban of all Confusion moves, such as Confuse Ray. Not just Swagger.
  
• ban individual Pokémon that make the strategy effective (Klefki, Liepard etc.). - The best option of the ones suggested, especially as PrankSwag is not broken on all potential users.

Other suggestions:

• Ban Swagger + Foul Play + Prankster OR Swagger + Foul Play - This is the broken combination, and thus should be the ban.
• Ban the ability Prankster - This is not a good idea but is a better idea than banning Swagger or even the complex ban. Prankster causes other issues as well, such as Prankster Destiny Bond.

Now, the PrankSwagPlayers are:
Murkrow
Sableye
Klefki
Liepard/Purrloin

Now, the question is; are all of these broken with Prankster+Swagger+Foul Play, or just some of them?

If all five of these pokemon are issues with this specific combination, then the answer would be to ban that combination.
If all five are not issues, then we should ban the abusers, since it is something about the pokemon in itself which is the issue in tandem with the combination [Ie: Klefki's great typing]

I direct to the example of Moody, which broke pretty much everything it was on, against Sand Rush + Sand Stream, which only broke Excadrill.

 

[Toljik]

The big difference is that when playing against stall u can influence the outcome. Ur teamcomposition, the decisions u make etc all that decides whether ur going to lose or win. Against Swagplay there is nothing u can do exept hoping for the right side of the coin. Playing against stall might not be the most fun thing to do but at the end of the day it has something to do with strategy and tactic like pokemon is supposed to. Thats not true for swag play.

That's not true, because your team's composition matters when facing a SwagPlay team, as well as when you bring in your SwagPlay counter. Klefki's Thunder Wave spam gives you plenty of chances to switch into it.

You cannot just refuse to put on a SwagPlay check/counter on your team and then complain about why you don't win. You don't even have to use a normally-outclassed Pokemon - Thundurus eats SwagPlay for breakfast and it's freaking S-ranked.

 

[Thorhammer]

There is a fundamental difference between a matchup where you can click a move and it will happen, however much your opponent may be able to dampen most possible effects, and a matchup where if you click a move, you only have a 50% chance of it actually working at all, whatever it is.

ban the move Swagger; - Should not be done full stop, Swagger is not a broken move, and we may as well make a Confusion Clause if this is the case. Swagger is a risk-reward version of Confuse Ray. What about Flatter, which is basically the same move?

Why not make a Confusion Clause? We have a history of banning Evasion for doing nothing but introducing random failure rates.

 

[Baharoth]

That's not true, because your team's composition matters when facing a SwagPlay team, as well as when you bring in your SwagPlay counter. Klefki's Thunder Wave spam gives you plenty of chances to switch into it.

The only viable thing that comes at least close to beeing a swag play counter is thundorus-I with taunt. And even thats not rly save since it can be killed with foul play. And even if it was, who wants to run the same pokemon with the same set on EVERY team just to be half way safe against such a stupid coinflip strategy? Thats centralizing the metagame for no reason.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Now, the PrankSwagPlayers are:
Murkrow
Sableye
Klefki
Liepard/Purrloin

You forgot Thundurus-I.

I don't think anyone would want to ban Thundurus because of this strategy. And I don't think these five you mentioned should be banned either.

They have uses in the metagame other than spamming swagger, it's not fair to ban the entire pokemon just because of this strategy.

 

[Ajwf]

Why are people saying PranksterSwagger is removing competitive play? Honestly, was this game ever competitive to begin with? No. This NEVER was a skill based game. Please, the game was made originally for pre-teens. The hax exist to make the game interesting. Not only that, but if you want to disgrace chess and compare this game to it (like there is ANY correlation... There is not), please remember that without Hax I'd have most of you checkmated the moment you got in a game against a very heavy and bulky stall team. You aren't BREAKING a stall team without some hax (At least with smogon: The team, you aren't, because that's what I build stall to counter).

Let's face it: Stall's greatest enemy is hax. In a game without luck, with ONLY skill, you'd play stall because that'd be the easiest way to win. Or baton pass w/ingrain. Stop acting like this is taking the skill out of the game, it really only existed in small parts to begin with. This game has always been LUCK BASED with skill differentiating levels of play from good to great. And even that is only in two places: Team building and prediction. Prediction is such that it can go either way, Teambuilding skill really, at the end of the day, is match up based.

So again, saying that prankster is removing the skill from the game is garbage. Saying that all confusion should be banned due to it removing skill is laughable. Get over yourself, I realized this game was luck based a long time ago. The success you have, if you are a 'good player' (Since yes, there do exist some that deserve to be mentioned for having 'skill' or simply good predictions), is largely getting lucky compared to another competent player you face.

So that's my /endRant on that topic. Pokemon is not even remotely close to chess. I'd say poker is a better comparison.

 

[Toljik]

The only viable thing that comes at least close to beeing a swag play counter is thundorus-I with taunt. And even thats not rly save since it can be killed with foul play. And even if it was, who wants to run the same pokemon with the same set just to be half way safe against such a stupid coinflip strategy? Thats centralizing the metagame for no reason.

Thundurus-I is the best counter, but not the only one. Other Pokemon like Rotom-W, Chansey, Blissey, anything with Infiltrator, Lum Berry Garchomp, Magic Guard or Magic Bounce and Lum Berry Trevenant can defeat Swagger hax the majority of the time, though admittedly a couple of those fall to Foul Play.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Why are people saying PranksterSwagger is removing competitive play? Honestly, was this game ever competitive to begin with? No. This NEVER was a skill based game. Please, the game was made originally for pre-teens. The hax exist to make the game interesting. Not only that, but if you want to disgrace chess and compare this game to it (like there is ANY correlation... There is not), please remember that without Hax I'd have most of you checkmated the moment you got in a game against a very heavy and bulky stall team. You aren't BREAKING a stall team without some hax (At least with smogon: The team, you aren't, because that's what I build stall to counter).

Let's face it: Stall's greatest enemy is hax. In a game without luck, with ONLY skill, you'd play stall because that'd be the easiest way to win. Or baton pass w/ingrain. Stop acting like this is taking the skill out of the game, it really only existed in small parts to begin with. This game has always been LUCK BASED with skill differentiating levels of play from good to great. And even that is only in two places: Team building and prediction. Prediction is such that it can go either way, Teambuilding skill really, at the end of the day, is match up based.

So again, saying that prankster is removing the skill from the game is garbage. Saying that all confusion should be banned due to it removing skill is laughable. Get over yourself, I realized this game was luck based a long time ago. The success you have, if you are a 'good player' (Since yes, there do exist some that deserve to be mentioned for having 'skill' or simply good predictions), is largely getting lucky compared to another competent player you face.

So that's my /endRant on that topic. Pokemon is not even remotely close to chess. I'd say poker is a better comparison.

Then by your logic we should delete this site, close showdown and end the pokemon competitive community.

Or we can still play the competitive game we love and try to make it less luck based than the original game.

 

[blitzlefan]

Why are people saying PranksterSwagger is removing competitive play? Honestly, was this game ever competitive to begin with? No. This NEVER was a skill based game. Please, the game was made originally for pre-teens. The hax exist to make the game interesting. Not only that, but if you want to disgrace chess and compare this game to it (like there is ANY correlation... There is not), please remember that without Hax I'd have most of you checkmated the moment you got in a game against a very heavy and bulky stall team. You aren't BREAKING a stall team without some hax (At least with smogon: The team, you aren't, because that's what I build stall to counter).

Let's face it: Stall's greatest enemy is hax. In a game without luck, with ONLY skill, you'd play stall because that'd be the easiest way to win. Or baton pass w/ingrain. Stop acting like this is taking the skill out of the game, it really only existed in small parts to begin with. This game has always been LUCK BASED with skill differentiating levels of play from good to great. And even that is only in two places: Team building and prediction. Prediction is such that it can go either way, Teambuilding skill really, at the end of the day, is match up based.

So again, saying that prankster is removing the skill from the game is garbage. Saying that all confusion should be banned due to it removing skill is laughable. Get over yourself, I realized this game was luck based a long time ago. The success you have, if you are a 'good player' (Since yes, there do exist some that deserve to be mentioned for having 'skill' or simply good predictions), is largely getting lucky compared to another competent player you face.

So that's my /endRant on that topic. Pokemon is not even remotely close to chess. I'd say poker is a better comparison.

Welcome! Smogon is a Pokémon website and community specializing in the art of competitive battling.

Welcome to Smogon! :) Post here if you're new to Smogon or don't understand what Smogon is about! This can help too, if you have any further questions!

 

[Toljik]

There is a fundamental difference between a matchup where you can click a move and it will happen, however much your opponent may be able to dampen most possible effects, and a matchup where if you click a move, you only have a 50% chance of it actually working at all, whatever it is.


Why not make a Confusion Clause? We have a history of banning Evasion for doing nothing but introducing random failure rates.

Because without Prankster, it's not a dice roll, and unlike Double Team, ordinary confusion does not build upon itself. Anything that tries confusion hax without Prankster can be outsped and dealt with.

If you have a replay of someone 6-0ing an Ubers team with Confuse Ray Umbreon, I'd like to see it.

 

[Ajwf]

blitzlefan Ninja Charizard

Again, I restate: Go ahead and make it less luck-based, I know the end result. As does anyone who has played this game for a while. So, yes. Remove luck, be earnest about it, and watch as there becomes only two viable team styles in the whole competitive world. But if you wish to believe that skill is any more than a small differentiation between the good and the recognized great, then you're fooling yourselves.

Removing confusion wholly and completely because it annoys you is not the right case of action. It is also ignorant in terms of cause and effect. By having this idea that a wholly skill based game means something in pokemon, you walk into the trap of believing that all team styles would benefit from not having hax. Taking away even this luck lessens the viability of team styles as a whole, although this is one of the few hax styles that affects HO more than stall.

But then again, community always notices the threats to their faster paced threats.

 

[Ryolain]

blitzlefan Ninja Charizard

Again, I restate: Go ahead and make it less luck-based, I know the end result. As does anyone who has played this game for a while. So, yes. Remove luck, be earnest about it, and watch as there becomes only two viable team styles in the whole competitive world. But if you wish to believe that skill is any more than a small differentiation between the good and the recognized great, then you're fooling yourselves.

Removing confusion wholly and completely because it annoys you is not the right case of action. It is also ignorant in terms of cause and effect. By having this idea that a wholly skill based game means something in pokemon, you walk into the trap of believing that all team styles would benefit from not having hax. Taking away even this luck lessens the viability of team styles as a whole, although this is one of the few hax styles that affects HO more than stall.

But then again, community always notices the threats to their faster paced threats.

What type of team relies on luck other than SwagPlay teams?

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

these awful arguments why prankster swagger isn't broken is getting extremely annoying and redundant. Can anyone who is against the ban prove how prankster + swagger is actually improving or is healthy for the meta or actually encourages new sets other than stupid shit like fire gem espeon?

I have no interest in demonstrating that SwagPlay is health or encourages creativity. A conservative position should be that SwagPlay should be preserved simply because it is a part of the game mechanics, and it is entirely legitimate if a player exploits the RNG probabilities that SwagPlay brings to facilitate victory.

Indeed, if the a considerable portion of the metagame (although stall deals with it well) deems the strategy "annoying" (and this is certainly a subjective term) with no viable means of counterplay during the course of that match or unreasonably restricts team building, then that is liable grounds for it to be banned. SwagPlay is not merely annoying, but it is also effective, and it is frustrating to lose against a n00b using it.

I advocate allowing only one Prankster + Swagger/Confuse Ray per team. This tactic really did not incense the metagame during Gen 5, most likely due to the existing Pranksters lacking the typing or bulk to reliably use it. Klekfi's passable bulk and excellent typing are what made the tactic prevalent (along with Meowstic's existence adding another Prankster). However, just considering the mechanics of SwagPlay in the context of the metagame, I can argue that it is actually nerfed in this Gen due to Talonflame's priority and the paralysis nerf. I once used a SwagPlay Klefki (mostly to spread paralysis while I also deemed SwagPlay was the best thing Klefki can do with its other three moveslots as I did not find Spikes or Dual Screens that valuable to me), and I can say that there are reasonable counterplay options against it; its presence in the metagame is not that unhealthy. However, it seems that multiple SwagPlay users would overwhelm these counters/checks.

Liepard and Meowstic would not elicit calls for individual bans if they existed in isolation, most likely due to U-turn, since it would destroy two turns of work: setting up a sub and using Swagger. Also Talonflame would severely deplete its health before it would even have a chance to Swagger it.

 

[Toljik]

What type of team relies on luck other than SwagPlay teams?

Paraflinch is an obvious one, and you cannot stop that strategy without banning every single move that causes flinching.

 

[Wobbyble]

Ajwf, you didn't have to take it so literally, holy shit. Chess requires you to plan ahead, to think, and requires intuition. In Monopoly, you roll a dice and hope for the best. Swagplay's skill cap goes up to utilizing some hazards, a Chansey/Blissey killer, and a Scarf Ditto. It requires almost no skill, no intuition, no prediction, just luck.

I'm not "defiling" the name of chess. I realize Pokemon will never be truly competitive, and will never compare to chess or Starcraft or bridge. But if you build good teams, can analyze your opponents, and can plan ahead, you will win more. The games you lose to hax will be minimal in the long run. I've had 44-0-0 and 52-2-0 records. I can guarantee you, if I played against Swagplay in each of those 44 games, I would have had a record closer to 34-10.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Thundurus-I is the best counter, but not the only one. Other Pokemon like Rotom-W, Chansey, Blissey, Talonflame, anything with Infiltrator, Magic Guard or Magic Bounce and Lum Berry Trevenant can defeat Swagger hax the majority of the time, though admittedly a couple of those fall to Foul Play.

Rotom-W: will still die if it's unlucky enough, dies to Toxic (and yes, I pack Toxic in my PranksterSwag team)
Chansey: dies to Toxic or if the player decides to pack a Conkeldurr to deal with it (another common tactic I've seem being mentioned multiple times).
Blissey: read above.
Talonflame: gets in, breaks the Substitute, gets confused, has to rely on luck to win. Dies very fast if it attackes itself. Dies even faster if the PranksterSwag uses rocks (another very common tactic).
Magic Bounce: everything with this ability is weak to Foul Play
Infiltrator or sound moves: deals with the Substitute but does not prevent confusion.
Magic Guard: prevents residual damage from confusion but does not prevent confusion itself, or damage from Foul Play.
Lum Berry: only works once, will not stop an entire team of Pranksters.

Sorry but even if they do defeat Pranksters a majority of time, there's still a great chance the Prankster user will win, and the worst thing is that this chance will be 100% due to luck and not skill. Plus there is the issue of having your team carry non-optimal items or pokemon just to deal with a strategy that isn't that common, when these non-optimal counters aren't even guaranteed to win. I'll have a better success in the ladder if I just forfeit every time I see a PranksterSwag team than if I decide to cripple my team just to have a chance of beating them if I'm lucky enough.

 

[Baharoth]

Rotom, Chansey and Blissey might not take much dmg from swagger but they cant do anything back either, exept maybe trying to pp stall the enemy which isnt going to happen against a full swag play team. Talonflame doesnt get priority Flare Blitz and will just die to swagger. Infiltrator doesnt help at all when the only thing u hit is ur own pokemon and magic guard/Bounce users just fall to foul play nothing of that can stop the strategy itself it might reduce its effectiveness to some degree but u will still have to rely on luck to win.