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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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I was scarfed as chomp, and hey, I feel you, the game was painful. But you see, as Ditto transformed it got only 5PP Moonlights, meaning it couldn't fully outstall, especially since it was locked in. :/
It isn't that SwagPlay is a win, it's that it is pretty much turning a game into coinflips.
Is that healthy for the meta? If someone can answer this and say it shouldn't be banned, I would much like to hear why.
jsyk the better Swagplay teams only run 2 abusers, limiting the amount per team is a retarded idea, won't help at all, and will be ridiculously complex, further than anything close to it. I'm nearing the slippery slope fallacy here, but I'd say limiting the amount of users of swagplay per team is almost like banning NP and SD on Mega Luke, an utterly ridiculous idea brought up by the highly respected and clearly intelligent user named Balsty.
Point is either ban it or don't ban it, limiting will do nothing.
I'm in support of either a complex ban of Prankster + Swagger, or just banning Swagger altogether. Both would be fine and an improvement on the laddering experience, in my opinion. It doesn't make sense to me why we would have the evasion clause be part of standard play, but we ignore something that is arguably much more broken in Prankster Swagger.
Also, is it just me or has this thread attracted a lot of terrible trolls that are likely from /vp/?
Also, is it just me or has this thread attracted a lot of terrible trolls that are likely from /vp/?
Okay, this is a bit too complex. When we look at bans, we look at the root of the problem first.
We have to consider whether Prankster Swagger actually adds anything to the metagame. Practically its only 'use' is to allow Foul Play users to potentially overcome extremely bulky opponents through repeated uses, but those Pokemon tend to have their own way of beating these walls anyway. Prankster Swagger was never really a niche: it has never influenced a Pokemon's potential ranking (Klefki, Sableye, and Thundurus could all use SwagPlay, but their Rank does not get boosted because of it), and it adds nothing but the element of luck to the meta, not different to that of Sand Veil Garchomp and evasion boosting moves.
That said, is Prankster Swagger that much more potent than Prankster Flatter / Confuse Ray? I would say yes, since one of the primary ways of dealing with confusion is to simply outbulk it, but Swagger can take that option away as you continue to hit yourself for more and more damage, while at the same time Foul Play can easily outdamage your healing attempts in due time. Priority confusion isn't quite so bad, but priority confusion + attack boost can be something else entirely. I wasn't against it before, but I can see why people suggest to ban Prankster Swagger.
Not usable? It is the ONLY non mega steel fairy. It is immune to half of what kills fairys (Poison, nothing. Steel, resisted. Fire, supper effective.) It's still a prankster with screens and spikes. It can keep thunderwave and if swagger is gone it can still murder anything not resistant to dark and has good base attack.
Right. Not unusable... aka usable. Unless you're saying it's better than usable without Swagger, which I may agree with. However, without swagger, it does have a lot more checks and counters, so it'd probably drop in viability.
If you want to lay down spikes, you should be using deoxys-s or d, who have access to taunt, preventing hazards from immediately being cleared. Klefki has about the same bulk as deoxys s just for comparison. Both deoxys forms can do screens better for the most part, and other suicide screeners have ways to set up screens and safety get a partner in. Sure Klefki would have a niche if swagplay was banned, but its weakness to common attacking types, most notably to ground, and serious competition from other mons that can set up spikes and screens, would hinder it in OU.
Maybe I missed something completly but I simply win against these teams with lum+sub on salamence or garchomp (i prefer salamence because DD). I let something die to swaggerplay (or win depends on coinflip situation) and than switch in Lum Sub Dragon. They use Swagger, I sub. And than I sweep.
And one thing I don't get about the conflip argument: Where is the difference between common 50/50 prediction and this?
And one thing I don't get about the conflip argument: Where is the difference between common 50/50 prediction and this?
One is a player-based decision, and if you predict wrong, it's your fault.
The other is an RNG based decision, and it's not your fault to hit yourself in confusion.
I know this is off topic, but...
Physical
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 261-307 (108.2 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 258-304 (101.1 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Special
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 218-257 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 224-265 (87.8 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Neither are wallish, but Klefki is more bulky and has a much better defensive typing.
Back on topic: This is pretty much the reason why the "offenders" should not be banned. They have utility outside of their most known set. If we ban them, we're banning people from using them in other ways.
Agreed. It makes sense for the offenders not to be banned as for the most parts they are versatile and can adopt a variety of roles.
And one point I missed, why are magic bouncers like xatu or espeon consindered unviable in the meta? I mean Screen Espeon is as good as always, they both shut down Deoxys Forms and Espeon is a good way to give <110 fighting types the middle finger while Xatu shits all over ferrothorn and skarmory with heat wave. Both have moves like yawn and thunder wave too. They counter swagger and thunder wave back, effectively turning the strategy around and can setup screens and shit like that.
So if I throw in reallife a Coin to decide my predictions, it isn't my fault, too? I don't get the answer at all.
Is there another version of this thread in the policy review or something where only moderators and such are allowed to post? Those are always more useful. There have been for similar threads, but I didn't see a link and couldn't find one on my own. I've tried desperately to no avail to follow the logic of some people, and I just realized that most of them I couldn't care less. Posting on this thread is like throwing sticks in a river, the current takes it away before you can enjoy it (What? Sitting by a river is relaxing and I enjoy that kid of thing). If I could just see what the general opinion of the higher ups is, I'd be able to ignore this thread and save a lot of time.
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1) What's "healthy" for the metagame is totally subjective-- it comes down to community opinion.
2) According to surveys of community opinion, it's inconclusive as to whether "diversity" = healthier meta. This opinion might have been more prevalent in Gen 4, but lost a lot of ground in Gen 5.
3) Gen 5 was the most diverse in play styles-- it was also generally considered the least healthy meta.
4) The community survey showed that players at Smogon do not see "overcentralization" as a problem, that it is not a bad thing or a sign of an unhealthy metagame.
Conclusion: A call to "greater diversity" or variation is not in any way a reason to keep Swag-Prank, or any other broken game function.
Please keep this in mind in the discussion going forward.
did nidoqueen make stall not a playstyle in bw ru??????
Perhaps, and to be honest I never played RU last generation so I can't say much on the topic. (I played OU/UU)
Nevertheless, the playstyle of stall might have been intensely limited by the presence of Nidoqueen, but I highly doubt it could be countered. By that I mean to say that if a stall team had issues with Nidoqueen, they could try to use a single pokemon that could switch into Nidoqueen and have 5 pure-stall oriented Pokemon. And if Nidoqueen was uncounterable, that just means Nidoqueen was broken, not that it countered stall.
Even if Normal-Arceus was in RU, it wouldn't "counter" stall per se, it would just be so offensively broken that it needs to be banned. That doesn't make it a counter to a playstyle, if that makes any sense. Being broken =/= a counter to stall. With regards to Swagplay, the fact that Numel in itself hard-counters 4-6 members of a Swagplay team makes that team archetype not a true playstyle.
I think what you mean to say is that there's a difference between a counter to one style and a counter to every style.
Even Bulky Ground-type can lose to Klefky http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-91502805
But, c'mon, Numel was a joke, he is inmune to confuse and para, that's all.
Even more viable checks like Rotom-W can fail (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-91380650 a simple WoW missclick (misspredicted Chomp), ignore the Critical Hit, him was 2HKO anyway)
ARE SMOGON RUINING THE METAGAME??!
Well, technically Nidoqueen was banned, and we get the most balanced metagame.
But, c'mon, Numel was a joke, he is inmune to confuse and para, that's all.
Even more viable checks like Rotom-W can fail (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-91380650 a simple WoW missclick (misspredicted Chomp), ignore the Critical Hit, him was 2HKO anyway)
I think the mistake with Groudon was switching it into Klefki when it was obviously going to use Swagger. I'm not sure what I would have done instead, though.
At least it's an Ubers match where both sides knew what they were doing. You don't see that often.
i know that it's smogon's attitude in general to bring up bans for stuff they don't like facing in battle (see: sand veil) but after playing some matches, prankster, swagger, swagplay or confusion in general should not be banned. a few tweaks to your team and you have a work-around (something as simple as lum berry + sub, or something like prankster meowstic / whimsicott with safeguard, etc).
- But i don't wanna have to change my team!!1! Swagplay stops my team cold...
--- And I don't wanna have to change my team of Forretress / Scizor / Abomasnow / Parasect / Ferrothorn / Wormadam-S because I get beaten by scarf-infernape with flamethrower. Should we ban Infernape because I don't wanna adapt my team to a new threat? No, I should change my team.
- Buuut I shouldn't have to deal with luck! This is Pokemon we're talking about
--- Luck is a part of Pokemon. Are we going to ban Paralysis / Sleep / Freeze / Focus Blast / Quick Claw while we're at it? Because confusion is certainly less annoying than those things
- But I don't want n00bs to be able to beat better players so easily
--- First off, why do you care about better players so much? If they don't feel like tweaking their team to not lose to Swagplay, then that's on them. Second, you likely won't see this too often higher up in the ladder, because it's a shitty long-term strategy.
Those are the most common ban arguments I've seen, anyway
- But i don't wanna have to change my team!!1! Swagplay stops my team cold...
--- And I don't wanna have to change my team of Forretress / Scizor / Abomasnow / Parasect / Ferrothorn / Wormadam-S because I get beaten by scarf-infernape with flamethrower. Should we ban Infernape because I don't wanna adapt my team to a new threat? No, I should change my team.
- Buuut I shouldn't have to deal with luck! This is Pokemon we're talking about
--- Luck is a part of Pokemon. Are we going to ban Paralysis / Sleep / Freeze / Focus Blast / Quick Claw while we're at it? Because confusion is certainly less annoying than those things
- But I don't want n00bs to be able to beat better players so easily
--- First off, why do you care about better players so much? If they don't feel like tweaking their team to not lose to Swagplay, then that's on them. Second, you likely won't see this too often higher up in the ladder, because it's a shitty long-term strategy.
Those are the most common ban arguments I've seen, anyway
Personally, I haven't had much of an issue with this strategy
It is usable, and it is great against HO teams.
However as a stall player they do absolutely nothing and end up accomplishing nothing for the swagplay team.
Saying it is unhealthy for the meta because it does well against HO teams is saying that Gen 5 CM Reuniclus was broken because it easily dismantled stall teams (could have used TR to break open HO as well)
Plenty of well-used mons do well against the strategy. For example, Klefki can do little to Rotom-W:
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 34-40 (11.1 - 13.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
And although many are reluctant to stall out swagplay PP, it is possible and is a viable option to beating swagplay. I have done it numerous times.
Overall, my opinion is that Swagplay should stay.
It is usable, and it is great against HO teams.
However as a stall player they do absolutely nothing and end up accomplishing nothing for the swagplay team.
Saying it is unhealthy for the meta because it does well against HO teams is saying that Gen 5 CM Reuniclus was broken because it easily dismantled stall teams (could have used TR to break open HO as well)
Plenty of well-used mons do well against the strategy. For example, Klefki can do little to Rotom-W:
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 34-40 (11.1 - 13.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
And although many are reluctant to stall out swagplay PP, it is possible and is a viable option to beating swagplay. I have done it numerous times.
Overall, my opinion is that Swagplay should stay.
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