In my opinion the easiest ban to make is swagger. Very few pokemon use the move without prankster, and i just don't like complex bans. So ban swagger.
I though the whole reason for megas was to make them OP enough to help certain mons become relevant, how else would you explain the +100 BST. (Granted Garchomp, Mewtwo and Blaziken shot holes into that idea).This doesn't address the main problem of swag play being luck dependent and uncompetitive at all. I wish people would stop bringing it up because it makes about as much sense as saying "since you can only have 1 mega, it's all right for them to be OP"
Even if for the sake of argument we do grant that SwagPlay is a "skilled" strategy,it is nevertheless irrelevant. SwagPlay is a degenerate playstyle by definition- it reduces the match into a giant game of probability where the luckiest player generally wins. Just like Moody and Double Team, this "strategy" is detrimental to a healthy meta because it removes control from the players; the entire match is decided by the RNG.I understand Jukain's stipulation about the complete lack of skill. But I ask you: is it really so much more skilled to lead with a Politoed in BW1, switch to a Kingdra, apply a Dragon Dance, and Waterfall away? Is it really so much more skilled to lead with a Hippowdon or a Tyranitar in BW1, switch to an Excadrill, and spam Iron Head or Earthquake? I thought it was almost hyperbolic to even list the Choice Scarf as an example, but I did so precisely to make clear the point that I did appreciate Jukain's stipulation about no skill being required to use SwagPlay: there can be no less skill involved than slapping a Choice Scarf onto some slow but powerful creature and saying "GO FORTH AND DESTROY!"
In play tests I've conducted with Swagplay teams, I have found that they require more skill than many of their most ardent detractors are implying they require. They're good, certainly, and they're very easy to pick up and learn. Certainly they require less skill than the very best stall teams of Generation 4. And they have an enormous advantage over teams that lack defensive cores with low attack. But these SwagPlay teams do not guarantee victory, and they come nowhere near guaranteeing it against teams with able defensive cores in competent hands. The SwagPlay player must know when to switch and when to stay put; and if he should stay put, he must know whether to go for a sub, go for an attack boost / restore confusion, or go for a Foul Play. These may sound like simple concerns, and they are! But they're no more simple than the ordinary decisions we make when deciding what to do with our Pokémon most of the time. That's the problem I have with many of the detractors' attitudes in this thread: they are deliberately misrepresenting SwagPlay as some unholy guarantee of victory for the user the likes of which the community has never seen.
That's a legit strategy that involves Prankster+Swagger. I'd rather the ban was more specific and stopped this trolly playstyle without ruining some other neat options. How about...?As I said earlier, the complex ban is too broad. If you're going complex then you may as well go all the way and nail the precise problem. We neglected to do this with Aldaron's proposal and ended up banning Beartric, Floatzel, Qwilfish and other non-broken 'mons out of sheer laziness/time constraints. It was a regret many expressed at the end of Gen V.
For example, I sometimes like to use Encore/Leech Seed/U-turn/Swagger Whimsicott in combination with Ditto. It's not an unskilled, luck-based playstyle; it's quite the opposite. I'll often sac Whimsi against a threatening physical sweeper, putting it up to +2 and then countersweeping out of nowhere with Ditto. Confusion is an afterthought, I was looking solely to boost the foe's attack. No other move can do this (Flatter, I guess) and it's an interesting application of a unique move (as is the Foul Play synergy). Broken? No. Luck-based? No. Banworthy? No, but it's gonna get caught in the crossfire.
You are a complete fool. Somebody just posted replays using swag play at 1900 rank. Also everything you put forward in your argument has already been debunked numerous times. Nobody respectable is convinced by your delusional opinion.This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Confusion is an inherent mechanic of the game and implementing a confusion clause would be as retarded as implementing a "critical hit" clause. Pro bans are only posting the same 2 replays in where they wreck a sub 1200 ranking guy with a prankster and call it "lol it's OP we gotta ban". Honestly guys, has any of you beaten someone or seen prankster teams in the 1700+ ladder? Own Tempo mons exist. Limber exists. Magic Bounce exists. Defensive pokemon with 0 attack IVs exist. Taunt exists. Hell, even substitute. And if something like garchomp or landorus-t that can't be para'd gets a swagger from, say klefki, and Earthquake hits, Klefki dies. Not to mention that when Landorus/Garchomp snaps out of confusion you're in for a world of pain. It's high risk high reward. If something here gets banned we might consider banning Paraflinch strategies from Jirachi and Togekiss as well under the same logical fallacies people are spewing here.
inb4 quoting with more replays, ad hominem, and not a coherent answer to my argument at all
No, because under that guideline, Kyurem-B should be banned, because that thing craps all over stall but struggles against offensive teams due to its poor defensive typing and speed.Fine, I'll concede. It turns the game into coin flips against any offensive team - though note that I'm not just talking HO, I'm talking any team that's not stall or fully defensive. Is that not still a reason to ban it?
Except it doesn't, because any self-respecting offensive team has some kind of pivot like Rotom-W or Landorus-T, both of whom Kyurem-B loves taking advantage of. It just plays differently against offense.No, because under that guideline, Kyurem-B should be banned, because that thing craps all over stall but struggles against offensive teams due to its poor defensive typing and speed.
Name just one legitimate strategy involving Swagger.Okay, I'm softening up a bit. I still think these sort of teams are unhealthy but I have realised there have been a lot of very poor arguments for the no-ban side (naming no names) which have tended to obscure the good ones.
I'd really love to see these teams extinguished... but I can't think of a ban that would do so without causing collateral damage to legitimate strategies. Given that there is no perfect solution, maybe it is best just to defer to simplicity of ruleset and have a flat ban on Swagger.
Says the person who brings up Own Tempo and Limber mons. Seriously, if you don't have the decency or respect for the community to read the thread before posting shit, please don't bother to post at all. People have refuted every single point in your entire post.not a coherent answer to my argument at all
Using it on your buddy with Own Tempo in doubles.Name just one legitimate strategy involving Swagger.
man you ain't even doing it right. In doubles you do Safeguard first and then Swagger so that you don't have to limit yourself to shitty mons with Own Tempo :oUsing it on your buddy with Own Tempo in doubles.
But even then, it's pretty much a waste of a turn.
If you bothered to read the thread you will realize that this thread isn't about beating it. It's about it being utterly uncompetitive.snip
And I continue with my opinion. I don't think that something you can easily deal with is uncompetitive. It's luck based, but many things are. As i said uncompetitive luck is when you put luck on yourself like evasion and so the opponent can't react to it..he can switch but you still have evasion and nothing changes. Swagplay is not uncompetitive, its a strategy as valid as flinch of T-wave, or even critc boosted moves on super luck mon lolIf you bothered to read the thread you will realize that this thread isn't about beating it. It's about it being utterly uncompetitive.
It isn't one "bad luck loss." Bad luck is when your opponent wins off of a crit, or freezes your last mon.Really? ban swagger or prankster(or both together)??? I usually play balanced teams, in the lines of 1 or 2 defensive mons, 1 wall breaker or revenge killer depending on team, 2 sweepers, 1 utility mon...
Let me tell you guys something, i'm not a good player, compared to the experienced ones here, I'm a TERRIBLE player. And I beat swagplay most of the times. Not just by luck, you just have to be a little smart in the beggining, because if he swagplay 2 or more of your mons you are at disadvantage. But if he tries to do that and you send a defensive mon or a special one(or own tempo/magic bounce if you have it) you have good odds os beating. Of course a team FULL of swagplay is a different matter, but it is gimmicky and these teams won't go too far.
If i can beat swagplay contantly, NOT playing stall, and being a relatively BAD player....then i see no reason to ban nothing!!! and the real issue here are some players(maybe good ones) loosing sometimes to luck(it happens guys!!!) and thinking this is a problem that could never happen ¬¬
This is a little luck based game. Paralisys are luck, flinch, confusion is luck, crits happens, High BP moves with chances of missing. If you put luck in YOUR pokemon like evasion, the opponent can't do shit and is a "prejudicial luck to the game" =p But if you put the "luck" on your opponent like confusion, then he CAN do something against it..and so it's in no way game breaking.
Yes, HO is probably going to loose, but so what? Every type of team has bad matchups, and if a type of team has MANY bad matchups in a metagame then you shouldn't play it. Like hail last gen, looses more then wins, so if you want to win everytime, don't play it.
So stop complaining about one bad luck loss. If i don't have a problem a good player shouldn't have too! Just put something useful against it like you use counters to many other things.
Paraflinch however doesn't work on ground types and is easily disposed of by choice scar pokemon. The problem here is that you can be using a Choice Scarfed Deoxys-S and STILL be forced into confusion. Deoxys then has to either switch out or take a +2 SE Foul Play. Deoxys-S is SLOWER than Klefki in this situation.This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Confusion is an inherent mechanic of the game and implementing a confusion clause would be as retarded as implementing a "critical hit" clause. Pro bans are only posting the same 2 replays in where they wreck a sub 1200 ranking guy with a prankster and call it "lol it's OP we gotta ban". Honestly guys, has any of you beaten someone or seen prankster teams in the 1700+ ladder? Own Tempo mons exist. Limber exists. Magic Bounce exists. Defensive pokemon with 0 attack IVs exist. Taunt exists. Hell, even substitute. And if something like garchomp or landorus-t that can't be para'd gets a swagger from, say klefki, and Earthquake hits, Klefki dies. Not to mention that when Landorus/Garchomp snaps out of confusion you're in for a world of pain. It's high risk high reward. If something here gets banned we might consider banning Paraflinch strategies from Jirachi and Togekiss as well under the same logical fallacies people are spewing here.
inb4 quoting with more replays, ad hominem, and not a coherent answer to my argument at all