SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Xozzen]

I think smogon has banned enough things, it's getting rediculous. Accumulating Hax is not uncompetetive, if you can "hax" your opponent with a high enough chance, it's no longer hax. Scald burn isn't hax either. OHKO moves can force KOs in really dire situations, but they are on a completely different level of chance than parafusion. It can be dealt with, swagger doesn't even have 100 accuracy. The question should not be "What are the benefits of keeping it around?" but rather "is it so detrimental that we have no other choice than banning it?", and I think the answer to that is no.

For example, I would find it extremely weird to explain to a non-smogon player why smogon banned this. It's on a completely different level than the other "strategies" which are banned.

 

[Lee]

. However, when regarding singles Swagger just has to go, I simply see no reason for it to stay as there are no viable, legit strategies based on Swagger that aren't SwagPlay.

See my post on the previous page. I can give you a dozen logs of me sweeping with the help of Swagger (no SwagPlay involved).

 

[Poopfist]

To me this seems fairly simple. I believe a "complex ban" on Swagger in conjunction with Prankster would be most viable.

To those who are in favor of keeping Swagger as it as I'd like to ask why. To those who say it "diversifies the metagame" that is an invalid opinion. Evasion moves and one hit ko moves also diversify the meta game but you won't see anyone trying to justify their use. Justifying Swagger by bringing up Own Tempo users is pretty ridiculous. No serious team builder is going to run a shitty Own Tempo mon on the off chance their opponent will have Swagger.

The whole Prankster Swagger thing just strikes me as something that should stay in VGC battles, I already run into it like every 3 or 4 battles over WIFI. What is the point of allowing this in our 6 v 6 OU metagame? I feel like the majority of users would like to limit luck based strategies as much as possible without outright throwing out game mechanics so no comparing Swagger to critical hits or lower accuracy moves isn't relevant.

TLDR; I am in favor of a complex ban of Swagger in conjunction with Prankster. Other confuse inducing moves aren't a problem. Neither is Prankster plus T-wave. Pranksters with Swagger should stay in the VGC metagame they don't belong in ours.

 

[Sinning]

I think smogon has banned enough things, it's getting rediculous. Accumulating Hax is not uncompetetive, if you can "hax" your opponent with a high enough chance, it's no longer hax. Scald burn isn't hax either. OHKO moves can force KOs in really dire situations, but they are on a completely different level of chance than parafusion. It can be dealt with, swagger doesn't even have 100 accuracy. The question should not be "What are the benefits of keeping it around?" but rather "is it so detrimental that we have no other choice than banning it?", and I think the answer to that is no.

For example, I would find it extremely weird to explain to a non-smogon player why smogon banned this. It's on a completely different level than the other "strategies" which are banned.

The reason you'd have a hard time explaining to a non-Smogon player is because the rule wasn't made for them. They wouldn't follow our arbitrary rules that we set up to create what we find to be a fair metagame. They probably wouldn't understand why we have ubers, but do you honestly feel like ubers is unnecessary?

Accumulating hax isn't uncompetitive? Then remove evasion clause. Allow OHKO moves. I agree, though, when you say "if you can consistently create hax, it is no longer hax. When you create a situation where it's more lucky that your opponent is allowed a turn than isn't, that's unfair. Hax, then, is the acceptable range of luck for the game. Scald and ice beam are "hax", but they are acceptable. "Swag Play" is abusing otherwise fair mechanics in order to create a simultaneously highly defensive and aggressive playstyle that removes another player's ability to play the game.

This is more detrimental than allowing evasion moves, yet we still ban those. Why would not do the same with this non-competitive strategy?

 

[Yilx]

Let's take a good look at the Pokemon that get Own Tempo:

Glameow/Purugly: If swagplay forces you to use a generic Normal type with bulk worse than Lucario, barely passable offense (82) and okay speed, something's very wrong here. "Hurrdur i can switch into Swagger" you might say, except, face it, Glameow is doing jack back to Klefki and co.

Lickitung/Lickilicky: Unless you run some kind of full-on support set or a Special attack with 0 investment in attack, Foul Play will still do a good number on you. And, again, if you're forced to run LICKILICKY in OU something is very wrong here.

Lilligant: lol

Slowbro/King: Because beating a potential Swagplay team warrants use of Own Tempo over Rengenerator.

Smeargle: lol

Spinda: lol

Spoink/Grumpig: I don't know, I'd rather give my Special Tank (lol) 2 more resists instead of immunity to something that it should have no buisness staying in on anyway.

Ludicolo: Because switching into Swagger is FAR MORE important than sweeping with Swift Swim or being bulky with Rain Dish (lol)

Just in case you question my inclusion of pre-evos, Numel has been brought up a few times in this thread both seriously and jokingly.

And if people want to bring up Magic Bounce.

0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 86-102 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 132-156 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Calculated vs 252/252+ (lol) Espeon too because people will inevitably bring it up. Putting aside the fact that Espeon is a subpar mon to begin with, most Espeon will still struggle, and what is it doing back to the likes of Thundurus and Klefki, really?

0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 82-98 (24.5 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 130-154 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Xatu can admittedly retaliate with Heat wave, but remember that if you go max defenses it's not really going to do much to skill keys and united nations of skill.

0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 87-103 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 73-86 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

First one is vs a physical attacking one and second one is vs a full SpA one. Putting aside the fact that you have to Mega first, you have to rely on generally inaccurate moves (Fire Blast, Play Rough) to hit the swagplay mons and they WILL do a number to you before they go down.

 

[Maskun]

The reason people use "swagplay" is because since this is a competitive gameplay people will use things just to win. I understand that many people get frustrated over it, but banning it gets nowhere. Also there are things called things called taunting and pokemon that have bulk. Also as mentioned by other people switching is an option. Also swagger can miss since it has an accuracy of 90%. Also hax is part of the metagame unless the simulator removes all critical hits, freezes, burns, paralyses in the metagame.

IF it does get banned there will be a new thing that'll come out making everyone complain again and the next thing they'll ban will be something involved with a new strategy.

My final stance is not banning swagplay because the metagame is all about hax and strategy and swagplay is just another strategy the metagame has out.

 

[termi]

See my post on the previous page. I can give you a dozen logs of me sweeping with the help of Swagger (no SwagPlay involved).

well sure thing show me your dozen of logs

 

[Toljik]

Smeargle: lol

Smeargle's actually helped me a lot against Klefki, because the latter is almost always used as a lead and Foul Play barely 5HKOs. But there's no way it could take on an entire team.

 

[Toljik]

The reason people use "swagplay" is because since this is a competitive gameplay people will use things just to win. I understand that many people get frustrated over it, but banning it gets nowhere. Also there are things called things called taunting and pokemon that have bulk. Also as mentioned by other people switching is an option. Also swagger can miss since it has an accuracy of 90%. Also hax is part of the metagame unless the simulator removes all critical hits, freezes, burns, paralyses in the metagame.
IF it does get banned there will be a new thing that'll come out making everyone complain again and the next thing they'll ban will be something involved with a new strategy.

My final stance is not banning swagplay because the metagame is all about hax and strategy and swagplay is just another strategy the metagame has out.

Are you intentionally making a horrible argument to make the anti-ban side look bad?

 

[DiscoPine]

It isn't one "bad luck loss." Bad luck is when your opponent wins off of a crit, or freezes your last mon.

"Swag Play" (God this name is so awful, can we call it something else?) is not something that happens on an off chance. It's a strategy that takes luck based things (paralysis, confusion) and stacks them so heavily against the opponent of the strategy so that it isn't luck if you miss your turn or hit yourself - it's luck if you even get a turn. And to allow a strategy that is able to not just create hax, but create it consistently, from the beginning to the end of a match, is no better than removing the evasion clause.

Stacking hax against your opponent is the same exact strategy used in Paraflinch. Serene Grace with Iron Head/Air Slash against a paralyzed opponent is a strategy that has the exact same problems that SwagPlay has, yet you do not see any bans towards that strategy. Paraflinch is just at good at taking your opponents turn as SwagPlay. SwagPlay is a high risk / high reward play style and stacks hax just as good as Paraflinch. Your comment about how it is lucky if you even get your turn is true for Paraflinch as well. Therefore we should treat SwagPlay the same way we treat Paraflinch.

 

[Sinning]

Stacking hax against your opponent is the same exact strategy used in Paraflinch. Serene Grace with Iron Head/Air Slash against a paralyzed opponent is a strategy that has the exact same problems that SwagPlay has, yet you do not see any bans towards that strategy. Paraflinch is just at good at taking your opponents turn as SwagPlay. SwagPlay is a high risk / high reward play style and stacks hax just as good as Paraflinch. Your comment about how it is lucky if you even get your turn is true for Paraflinch as well. Therefore we should treat SwagPlay the same way we treat Paraflinch.

Yep, and I argued that point like five pages ago.

I will say this, though. Para-flinch is much more manageable due to the lack of prankster. They aren't nearly the same thing. "Swag Play" has more in common with evasion strategies than it does with para-flinch.

 

[Lee]

well sure thing show me your dozen of logs

Sure, but humour me first; is it because you're doubting the self-evident efficiency of the strategy or because you have no other means of rebuttal?

 

[Zygarde]

It would probably be okay just to ban the move itself. Swagger has never even been used outside of the Prankster ability anyways. I suppose the more fair option would be to ban it in conjunction with Prankster. I'm down for banning it regardless.

 

[Nite Ace]

I think rather than banning a move or a Pokemon for such an uncompetitive strategy why not ban the strategy? You can use Swagger, but you can't use it with the combination of T-Wave under the SwagPlay clause. If you're going to ban Swagger might as well ban Confuse Ray. Both have their own risk and rewards situations but in Swagger both the risk and reward factors are higher.

 

[Exxodus]

Stacking hax against your opponent is the same exact strategy used in Paraflinch. Serene Grace with Iron Head/Air Slash against a paralyzed opponent is a strategy that has the exact same problems that SwagPlay has, yet you do not see any bans towards that strategy. Paraflinch is just at good at taking your opponents turn as SwagPlay. SwagPlay is a high risk / high reward play style and stacks hax just as good as Paraflinch. Your comment about how it is lucky if you even get your turn is true for Paraflinch as well. Therefore we should treat SwagPlay the same way we treat Paraflinch.

You can easily and reliably revenge kill the paraflincher. One of the major issues is that you can't reliably revenge kill a Klefki, for example, because it WILL afflict you with a status before you can TRY to revenge kill him.

 

[GuilherWolfang]

Stacking hax against your opponent is the same exact strategy used in Paraflinch. Serene Grace with Iron Head/Air Slash against a paralyzed opponent is a strategy that has the exact same problems that SwagPlay has, yet you do not see any bans towards that strategy. Paraflinch is just at good at taking your opponents turn as SwagPlay. SwagPlay is a high risk / high reward play style and stacks hax just as good as Paraflinch. Your comment about how it is lucky if you even get your turn is true for Paraflinch as well. Therefore we should treat SwagPlay the same way we treat Paraflinch.

Agree with the paraflinch.....is the same stacking hax! And in my opinion paraflinch is better and more agressive. Swagplay has klefki, a pokemon with good type, prankster and useful defenses...but it's just one pokemon, and for sure he is not broken. Jirachi and Togekiss are better, and in a paraflinch team you can still have a dynamic punch machamp for confusion, and it isn't broken or uncompetitive. A paraflinch team has better chances at winning than a swagplay ¬¬ We won't ban paraflinch...so it would be an absurd if we ban swagger+prankster

 

[Sinning]

It would probably be okay just to ban the move itself. Swagger has never even been used outside of the Prankster ability anyways. I suppose the more fair option would be to ban it in conjunction with Prankster. I'm down for banning it regardless.

While I agree that a ban is necessary, I don't necessarily think just banning a move is what needs to be done.

The problem is that this strategy is incredibly defensive while being able to sweep teams at the same time. This is flawed in nature, as status was created to work in defensive or exciting manners. Examples of this would be burning a sweeper when they're setting up swords dances, in the case of using status defensively. When an ice beam freezes an opponent's pokemon, that's an example of status, or "hax" being integrated into the game to create a more "wet and wild" environment, which, while not leading to the most competitive game, is an integral part of pokemon.

When "Swag Play" is used, it is not the same as using what was called an annoyer back in the day. Swag Play is not pseudo hazing, nor is it comparable to parafusion or paraflinch. Confusion + paralysis is fine. What is not fine is when a pokemon who was made for utility and defenses is sweeping teams by means of a defensive strategy being abused in tandem with Foul Play. Therefore, swagger + foul play on the same set, or at least for all pokemon with prankster, should be banned.

 

[GuilherWolfang]

While I agree that a ban is necessary, I don't necessarily think just banning a move is what needs to be done.

The problem is that this strategy is incredibly defensive while being able to sweep teams at the same time. This is flawed in nature, as status was created to work in defensive or exciting manners. Examples of this would be burning a sweeper when they're setting up swords dances, in the case of using status defensively. When an ice beam freezes an opponent's pokemon, that's an example of status, or "hax" being integrated into the game to create a more "wet and wild" environment, which, while not leading to the most competitive game, is an integral part of pokemon.

When "Swag Play" is used, it is not the same as using what was called an annoyer back in the day. Swag Play is not pseudo hazing. Confusion + paralysis is fine. What is not fine is when a pokemon who was made for utility and defenses is sweeping teams by means of a defensive strategy being abused in tandem with Foul Play.

You prove that the problem is not the swagger, and confusion+paralisys is ok (paraflinch goes beyond because is a team has machamp it is confusion+paralisys+flinch)...the problem is using foul play on a defensive pokemon you said =p But foul play IS made to be used on a defensive pokemon o.o For me it's the same thing= 1 - paraflinch: "paralisys+confusion+attack with flinch" in a team and 2-swagplay: "paralisys+confusion+attack with foul play in a team" Sorry, it's no broken, uncompetitive or worth a ban..it's just something to be careful, as facing any other strategy

 

[termi]

Sure, but humour me first; is it because you're doubting the self-evident efficiency of the strategy or because you have no other means of rebuttal?

I'd just like to see it, I'm curious but not necessarily doubting your strategy. I do doubt whether or not a gimmick (because it's not much more than that, let's face it) is really worth making a complex ban for when we can also just throw Swagger out of the window.

 

[Poopfist]

The reason people use "swagplay" is because since this is a competitive gameplay people will use things just to win. I understand that many people get frustrated over it, but banning it gets nowhere. Also there are things called things called taunting and pokemon that have bulk. Also as mentioned by other people switching is an option. Also swagger can miss since it has an accuracy of 90%. Also hax is part of the metagame unless the simulator removes all critical hits, freezes, burns, paralyses in the metagame.
IF it does get banned there will be a new thing that'll come out making everyone complain again and the next thing they'll ban will be something involved with a new strategy.

My final stance is not banning swagplay because the metagame is all about hax and strategy and swagplay is just another strategy the metagame has out.

Burns freezes paras and crits off of attacking movies are nothing like Swagger. Swagger is literally just hax whereas an attacking move with another effect may induce hax.

Taunting a Prankster before they start their shenanigans is only possible if you have a Pokemon with Prankster who is also faster. If you do manage to taunt through the confusion then welp they just switch out to another prankster.

Again I'll ask those who are in favor of keeping Swagger what does Swagger in conjunction with Prankster provide to make our metagame more competitive/fun because these are the two things we should be striving for. Yes some might argue off of subjectivity that Prankster Swagger is fun to them but does it make the game more competitive? No it makes it more hax based.

 

[Exxodus]

You prove that the problem is not the swagger, and confusion+paralisys is ok (paraflinch goes beyond because is a team has machamp it is confusion+paralisys+flinch)...the problem is using foul play on a defensive pokemon you said =p But foul play IS made to be used on a defensive pokemon o.o For me it's the same thing= 1 - paraflinch: "paralisys+confusion+attack with flinch" in a team and 2-swagplay: "paralisys+confusion+attack with foul play in a team" Sorry, it's no broken, uncompetitive or worth a ban..it's just something to be careful, as facing any other strategy

In your strategy, you're using +2 Pokemon to pull off a Paraflinch. Klefki can para fusion you AND cause large(MASSIVE) amounts of damage at the same time. Why, if SwagPlay is not banned, would anyone use two mons when one OUTCLASSES both, has superior defensive typing, and causes more damage?

 

[GuilherWolfang]

Burns freezes paras and crits off of attacking movies are nothing like Swagger. Swagger is literally just hax whereas an attacking move with another effect may induce hax.

Taunting a Prankster before they start their shenanigans is only possible if you have a Pokemon with Prankster who is also faster. If you do manage to taunt through the confusion then welp they just switch out to another prankster.

Again I'll ask those who are in favor of keeping Swagger what does Swagger in conjunction with Prankster provide to make our metagame more competitive/fun because these are the two things we should be striving for. Yes some might argue off of subjectivity that Prankster Swagger is fun to them but does it make the game more competitive? No it makes it more hax based.

You said "Burns freezes paras and crits off of attacking movies are nothing like Swagger. Swagger is literally just hax whereas an attacking move with another effect may induce hax." Well...T-Wave is just hax in this argument and should be banned....same coin flip...but reduces speed and is permanent(till healed) where confusion has a chance of attacking yourself...pretty even for me. And as proved: paralisys+confusion is not unconpetitive or worth a ban...if it was, paraflinch should be banned.

Swagger causes confusion and raises attack, we can conclude that confusion should not be banned, it never were unconpetitive even with paralisys so stop blaiming confusion ¬¬ And the "raises attack" problem...its high risk-high reward, and the player will use this to his advantage(in this case confusing special based mons), as with any other strategy.

 

[Sinning]

You prove that the problem is not the swagger, and confusion+paralisys is ok (paraflinch goes beyond because is a team has machamp it is confusion+paralisys+flinch)...the problem is using foul play on a defensive pokemon you said =p But foul play IS made to be used on a defensive pokemon o.o For me it's the same thing= 1 - paraflinch: "paralisys+confusion+attack with flinch" in a team and 2-swagplay: "paralisys+confusion+attack with foul play in a team" Sorry, it's no broken, uncompetitive or worth a ban..it's just something to be careful, as facing any other strategy

Just because foul play was meant to be used on defensive sets does not make that balanced, it makes it synergetic. That's like saying choice specs was made for kyurem- w, so it's balanced. The problem definitely isn't swagger, nor is it thunder wave, substitute, prankster, or even foul play (by itself). But those things combine to create a perfect storm, and when the arguments to keep it around are "use a counter" then we're getting into centralization, which is just another reason to ban it.

I'm not here to cry about how I lose to this strategy. Everybody loses to this strategy - even the best players - unless they're playing a team tailored to beat this strategy (again, getting into centralization). This strategy is uncompetitive because it throws strategy out the window. No longer are we outplaying the opponent when we come against this strategy; rather, we are simply waiting for the RNG gods to smile upon us.

The only difference between this strategy and evasion is that evasion has reliable counters that would not otherwise be dead weight in the metagame. Numel, being pretty much the only 100% counter, is, bluntly, a piece of shit. Therefore, it's not a viable counter.

Keeping this strategy contributes nothing good to the metagame, and only serves to steal wins from more skilled players.

 

[GuilherWolfang]

In your strategy, you're using +2 Pokemon to pull off a Paraflinch. Klefki can para fusion you AND cause large(MASSIVE) amounts of damage at the same time. Why, if SwagPlay is not banned, would anyone use two mons when one OUTCLASSES both, has superior defensive typing, and causes more damage?

It just outclasses if you are facing a offensive mon. And that you can't control, when you send klefki, your opponent control to who he switch.