np: Doubles Stage 2 - Suspect Discussion

[Haruno]

Short post go niggas!

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

Sleep isn't as broken nor as spammable as we/I might've initially believed and through ladder/replays I can say that sleep isn't broken. It's mostly another strategy that one must keep in mind while teambuilding. I'm unsure of what you mean by being overcentralizing I'm afraid. Is it used often on the ladder? If that's what you meant then yes it is used quite often, though it's hard to say why. Mostly it's for just trying out the suspect since that's what the ladder is for while others have been trying new and various strategies to see how abusable sleep really is. If by overcentralizing you mean being forced to run absolutely obscure sets/mons to try and stop sleep then my answer will be in the next bulletpoint.

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

It's too soon to have a absolute answer to the first question. Does it force us to prepare for it by changing up our teams? Most certainly, whether it be adding safety goggles, running safeguard or using overcoat mons, teams must have some answer to sleep in some way. Though would this be considered a large amount of preparation to deal with? I think not since although it does force one to run some niche stuff and/or grass types that we might not have run beforehand.

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

It increases the diversity of the metagame in the sense that it makes more mons/sets usable, though arguably this does come at a cost like say trick room being nerfed though the effects of that has yet to be seen. The good pokemon before the sleep clause testing are still good, while others (zard Y/mega/saur/amoong) have just gotten even better while little/any things took a major hit in usage. So overall I think the metagame is still incredibly diverse, maybe even more so than how it was before the sleep clause lift.

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

It has a neutral effect on the metagame, it's not as gamebreaking as we all originally thought that it might've been. Without a dark void unban, I really don't think sleep affects the metagame that much though it does become another thing worth considering when teambuilding.

• Is there any opportunity cost in using Sleep?

There is an opportunity cost to using sleep since the main abusers are situational and sleep abuse may actually come to bite you back in the ass if something unfortunate like 1 turn sleep or powder miss or the likes happen so I won't say that there isn't an opportunity cost while using powder. Spore only has two main abusers in loom and amoong with neither of them possessing decent speed and the former doesn't even have any bulk. Spore is hard to abuse since the users tend to be prone to getting double targetted or whatnot and if you mispredict it can horribly backfire since sleep isn't a press spore/powder/hypnosis to win button. Hypnosis pretty much mandates gravity which is a huge opportunity cost in itself since it takes up 2 moveslots and it's not even abusable at all times.

• What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

Stopping the sleep from landing of course, whether by Fake-Out, KO'ing, double targetting etc. Switching to a sleep immune pokemon is also an easy way to go if one is available.

Lesser seen methods are of course the items, such as Chesto/Lum/Safety goggles.

Rarely seen methods would be using your own grass type mon to Worry Seed it's partner or a move like Uproar on a strong special attacker (like Exploud. Yes I did see this once while laddering and it completely fucked me up)

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

A ohko clause testing would be interesting though I'm unsure if I want to formally suggest it or not.

 

[Ultimathunder]

Echoing what others have said, I have found wanting to keep sleep clause or remove it to be a matter of preference. Personally, I found the no sleep clause meta to be highly enjoyable. I haven't really found that all teams need to abuse sleep to be successful, or that sleep is over-centralizing.

1. Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
No. I initially thought so, but after actually playing in the meta, I've found that sleep is simply just another thing a doubles player has to keep in mind to check. I'm going to compare sleep to pre-suspect test trick room. Trick room is another concept that a doubles player keeps in mind while building a team. Every good non-TR team in doubles has an answer to trick room, whether it be taunt, their won trick room, a sleep inducing move, or a very slow Pokemon like Conkeldurr to check trick room teams. Sleep in a way is similar, because every good team now is running something like a grass type, a safety goggles user, or something more unorthodox like misty terrain.

2. Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
No. As I've said above, sleep is stopped by a number of things, which aren't too hard to fit on a team. Drawing back the comparison to trick room, sleep is one of the larger threats in the meta that has to be specially prepared for, but it is not the only one.

3. Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the Metagame?
Increase. Sleep increases the viability of a lot of top threats which are vulnerable to it. It increases the viability of mons such as Breloom, Mega Venusaur, Darkrai, Skymin, and others. IT increases the viability of flying types, fire types, and moves like taunt.

4. Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
Sleep spam is not a good idea. Protect makes the sleep user highly vulnerable to the other Pokemon's attacks and is stopped by taunt. In fact , in a way, since people are trying out new strategies to stop sleep, sleep's power is being reduced, as all good teams are heavily prepared for it.

I think it boils down to a few main points.

Sleep is not broken. As seen in VGC and out own suspect ladder, removing sleep clause in doubles is a valid idea and while requiring preparation, not broken that teams cannot deal with it. Thus, it comes down to whether you enjoy playing with sleep clause or not.

Removing sleep clause promotes better team building. This is possibly the most important point. I've seen far less monotype, terracott, and other gimmick style teams, because they had no answer to sleep. I've even gotten a few of my opponents to join the doubles room and learn to teambuild for this meta. This would increase the skill level of our ladder, and maybe we could actually use ladder experiences to describe how good something is.

Removing sleep clause promotes more diversity in teambuilding. While some top-tier mons are even more top tier, some lesser used ones such as misty terrain users, breloom, and lesser used moves like safeguard will see more usage.

So...

#FREESLEEP

 

[Mizuhime]

Sleep broken? -

Nawwwww, not even over centralizing. If you rely 100% on sleep you won't win. If you think it's broken your team clearly isn't built well and you should probably change that. So many things stop sleep and if you can just use one of these many things you'll win. Dark void is still banned and that is the most threatening part about lack of sleep clause.

Does is restrict team building?-

nawwwwwwww, A lot of the people itt have said that trick room is hindered by sleep clause, but I personally don't agree with that. Amoonguss is a great counter to TR, but there is many ways to play around it, you can also use your own Amoonguss to sleep other mons. I really think people are over looking the fact that on a suspect ladder people are going to be using the thing that gets them to reqs the fastest ( Hyper Offense Builds ).

Does sleep increase/decrease diversity in the meta? -

Jake used a fucking jumpluff.

Risk vs Reward? -

I mean, sleep isn't a good idea to spam, since you wont win, but using moves like sleep powder, or god forbid hypnosis is a giant risk due to low accuracy. Spore is really the only good sleep inducing move and only a handful of Pokemon will even use it. Breloom, Moonguss, Smeargle and I think Parasect. Any other move is very risky to rely on and really shouldn't be used, outside of maybe Mvenu or venu in sun.

Being someone that came from the VGC community (granted i don't have the credentials as some of the others), but sleep has never been broken to me. I was in favor of unbanning sleep in ubers test when Darkrai became a monster. Some people could argue that it makes the meta less fun or whatever, and they don't like it when all the mons go to sleep, but my reply to that is simply just play better.

 

[atomicllamas]

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

After my laddering to get reqs, I was actually pretty surprised that I didn't find sleep to be extremely broken without the sleep clause intact. It was definitely a powerful threat, but not more so than things like Mega-Kangaskahn or Zard-Y where they (and sleep) are definitely major threats but not impossible to deal with if you have some sort of idea how to handle them in the team building stage.

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

I don't think that it restrains teambuilding "too much", but depending on your team, it does necessitate some deviations from what was standard when there was a sleep clause. Besides putting a grass type on your team (which isn't really a catch all to sleep, it just makes it easier to prevent more than one thing from being put to sleep), safeguard can also be used which has the additional advantage of protecting powerful physical attackers from burns. I also found while laddering with shake's choice specs Sylveon team that a lot of offensive presence makes it difficult for the opponent to sleep more than one of your pokemon anyways (except like Amoonguss in TR, that is so annoying).

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

Hmm, its hard to say if this affected it either way, the only pokemon that I saw on the ladder that I wouldn't have seen before was Jumpluff (well besides the normal horrible things that shouldn't be seen, like espeon (I imagine it was their response to sleep @_@)). I also don't think it really decreases the diversity, as I'm pretty sure the lack of sleep clause affects everything equally, barring Grass-types and pokemon with niche abilities to counter sleep (and sleep abusers).

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

I think sleep has a net neutral affect on the meta game, while you definitely have something else to prepare for, it isn't over centralizing in the slightest. It also introduces a new strategy into the meta that is fun to use and build around.

• Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

I think teams that aim to just continuously sleep the opponents team are not that effective because they tend to lack the power to actually win games. I've played a couple games with a sleep abusing team, and the one thing that stuck out in my mind is the opportunity cost of using a sleeper is the use of a traditional team supporter (ie Trick room, tailwind, follow me, etc.), because if you are using a sleeper and more than one other support pokemon, you'll find you're team lacks the offensive presence to actually take advantage of sleep.

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

Not at the moment, seems pretty balanced (and fun!) right now.

 

[Electrolyte]

I feel that Sleep abusing teams are uncommon enough in the Doubles metagame that releasing Sleep Clause would not even bring out that many troubles. Sleep abusing teams are valid and viable but fall apart quickly outside of the ladder and in competitive tournaments on Smogon. I feel that Sleep abusing teams that benefit from Sleep Clause are really luck oriented- and not suited for high tier play. It's a great strategy to get a certain ladder ranking (as a lot of us have proven) in short amounts of time, but often times it's just as risky as other low accuracy - high power attacks like Hydro Pump or Stone Edge. Sleep Powder, which is the much more common of all other Sleeping strategies (due to the fact that the only otherwise common abuser is Venusaur, who can only use Sleep Powder) and only has 75% accuracy; that goes up to 82% with Wide Lens, but carrying the item also forces its wielder to forgo other power-boosting items that would make them more dangerous in other ways.

Sleep is great at grabbing momentum, but if it misses, and it does, the same effect can happen in reverse. In a meta full of Fire and Flying-types, frail Grass-types such as ChloroSaur or Jumpluff are extremely susceptible to opposing attacks if their Sleep Powder misses. Spore Pokemon are free from this fate but are generally slower so suffer from the consequences anyway because they're always outsped. In truth, I would much rather use a regularly solid team in a tournament or in an official match than a Sleep abusing team, simply because the latter is more reliable. From this, I've noticed a split between team usage on the ladder and formal matches- people tend to use Sleep abuse more on the ladder because it's a quick and reliable-enough strategy to peak with, while in formal matches people tend to use their more regularly solid albeit not as destructive teams for a more secure chance of a win. Either way, Sleep abuse is mostly staying out of competitive tournaments (unless ChloroSaur carries it along) and because of that, we shouldn't really worry about its negative effects too much because most people recognize that it's not the most reliable of strategies, even when used correctly.

(I guess those are my answers for question #1 and #4 as well)

 

[Lolk]

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

• I have found that Sleep is just another tool to aid sweepers in spamming. Follow Me/Rage Powder are similar in annoyance (and I would ban all three cause i get pissy at losing to them), but as a serious player, there is nothing wrong with no sleep clause in the metagame. You can't really call it overcentralizing because full sleep teams suck ass, similar to full trick room or like mono fire lol. Really one or two checks to sleep, including Grass-types, Lum, Safeguard, Fake Out, or just facer paced teams in general are needed to keep it under control. The moment it becomes too overcentralizing is the moment I actually use safety goggles lol.

Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

• I pretty much answered this in my first question. Combating sleep is eassssy, it just punishes poor teambuilding.

Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

• I would say it limits diversity to the metagame, but not too drastically. Adding another thing to take care of when teambuilding obviously restricts more devoted playstyles such as Weather, Trick Room, and uhhhh Sand, but it increases more generic balanced, synergizy teams which i enjoy.

Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

• This is something I really want to bring up. I think Sleep balances some of the more annoying sides of the current metagame. Mega Kangaskhan shits on a lot of playstyles and requires more specific checks than other Pokemon, and Sleep is a great way to keep it (and other mega evolutions) in check.
• Another thing about this meta is how so many games are lost by Heatran switching in on every Grass-type in the game and sweeping. With Sleep Powder, this ever-present power loss when losing momentum with grass types is gone :)
• Still, more sleep doesnt make kanga or tran less viable, just more under control. All Pokemon remain viable without sleep clause, so the metagame by default is more positive.
• actually this meta sucks because of the addition of the many jumpluff to the ladder dont free sleep clause.

Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

• Hey look my sarcastic comment above answered this. But seriously, I don't think ladder spam should be a factor of defining a meta. As much as I wanted to ban the fire-typing after losing to that guy on the ladder, I knew that it was just a part of the game and that in a competitive setting, it would bite them in the ass.

What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

• This has already been answered.

Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

• Can we finally ban Pwnemon he is very unhealthy for the meta.

 

[dcae]

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

It's not broken and it's not overcentralizing. The style of doubles play, as well as the inherent nature of doubles play, both prevent Sleep from being absolutely ridiculous, like it is in singles. It is not overcentralizing because, as has been shown, people have easily succeeded in this new metagame with teams that have absolutely no tweaks or very minor ones at that. Sleep's drastic nerf from gen 5 > gen 6 also contributes to it really not being as notable.

Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

It doesn't restrain teambuilding at all. An inherently good team rarely needs any changes or preparation actually, or if they do, it is something minor like a Lum Berry used over a Sitrus Berry, for example. For example, I played around with an already solid team on the ladder, as well as a more sleep oriented one, and the already solid team actually did better.

Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

Sleep is actually increasing diversity. We see new threats, such as Mega Venusaur and (lol) Jumpluff, as well as the renewal of older ones, like Breloom and Amoonguss. Furthermore, Safety Goggles is now a more viable item choice on certain especially sleep prone mons. Sleep has also increased the effectiveness of Hyper Offense, a team style that was once far too precarious to build. It has balanced out the styles seen in the meta, by slightly improving offense and slightly nerfing bulky offensive teams, thus making every single playstyle practically equally viable.

Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

Honestly I'd say neutral. It increases certain teams' viability while decreasing others, although in a way it is positive, as it can potentially destroy a badly built team, which emphasizes good teambuilding.

Is there any opportunity cost in using Sleep?

Yes 100%. Spamming Sleep vs any competent player will result in you getting fucked, as Sleep is rather predictable and only takes one Pokemon out per turn. This goes without saying that the potential of a one turn sleep is 33%, which can really fuck the user of Sleep up if they expected more time.

What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

Grass types, Sub users, Taunt is amazing, Safeguard, Safety Goggles/Lum, offensive pressure. Sleep is quite manageable.

Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

free kyogre you can use it too ;]

real talk tho, this is a great meta, lots of shit is viable, nothing is overcentralizing the meta, it's all good.

 

[Lasagne]

#shortpost

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

Definitely not broken. Sleep isn't particularly hard to play around, and it's not something that every team has to overprepare for or use itself. It's just as easy to make a good team without a sleep move in this meta as it was in the last - aka not hard. I'm gonna get straight to the point I made in my post in the last thread though. IT'S NOT FUN. I don't care if sleep isn't broken, I don't care if you can play around it; it's not fun to play against, so I really don't like the absence of sleep clause. At this point I would just be repeating what I said in the other thread, but there is one point I forgot to make. One of the big reasons I play doubles is because I really enjoy how fast paced this metagame is, and that battles are often over in under 10-15 turns. With sleep clause, battles are extended a lot further. Not only are you being forced to switch around to play most effectively which already lengthens the battles, but when a Pokemon is asleep, that's already at least one turn where it can't do shit and the battle is extended that little bit. Without sleep clause, that really adds up and makes for tedious games that take away from the enjoyment that is the reason i play doubles in the first place.

tl;dr - not overcentralizing/broken, but not fun either, so sleep clause should stick around.

Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

nah you can have relatively little preparation and still be in the possession of a solid team that can reliably beat sleep based teams as long as you play well. you dont need that much preparation. its good to have maybe a couple of chesto/lum/safety goggles mons whatever, but its not really necessary so long as you're good at the game

Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

yah sure it increases it - makes grass mons good basically oO

Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

negative because it makes doubles so not fun at all. doubles is meant to be the most fun metagame cos bam bam kill things protect amazing plays boom win woah ebst match ever. now its oh gotta be careful i dont get slept which one of my pokemon will be completely incapacitated if i predict this wrong i will lose the match ooh careful plays. keep sleep clause niggas

Is there any opportunity cost in using Sleep?

yeah obviously. main thing being you're probably using an otherwise shit pokemon in the case of jumpluff, but if its like amoonguss or breloom then its fine cos they're good mons anyway

What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

everyones done this already not gonna repeat etc

Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

theres evasion which wouldnt be broken in theory cos its a shit strategy and not hard to play around, but thats what i thought about sleep and its just not fun so that might happen to evasion too
nothing else really its a great meta WITH SLEEP CLAUSE

 

[phantom]

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

Sleep isn't too powerful in the least bit. It's really just another tool that aids teams in accomplishing whatever goal they want to accomplish. Smart plays and more importantly dedicated checks are all viable ways to deal with sleep. I found, however, that you don't even need a sleep check in this meta, simply outplaying your opponent will suffice 9 times out of 10. I guess you could say the same for any suspect, but the thing with sleep is that you really do have to think about the target you're aiming for. It's sorta like trying to double-target a pokemon and then the opponent wises up and uses protect... Sleep isn't mindless and there is a degree of thinking involved if you plan to use it.

Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

Restrain is a strong word. I'd say it encourages you to prepare for it, but that's not an issue due to the fact that a lot of anti-sleep Pokemon (Talonflame, Skymin, etc) where already good in their own right. That's usually the deal breaker for me when evaluating a suspect, i.e. how far do you have to go to deal with it? If I have to go out of my way and carry something obscure to beat a certain threat, that makes me believe that it's centralizing, but that's not the case with sleep.

Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

I'd say it increases. Previously unviable Pokemon like Jumpluff are decent now and Pokemon like Breloom, Darkrai, and Amoonguss are seeing more usage along with Pokemon that can deal with their shenanigans. Hyper offense is a also a helluva a lot easier to use considering that sleep gives the much-needed leg room to break past bulkier targets.

Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

I'd say positive. A lot sleep inducers are now basking in the lime light atm and a lot of anti-sleep Pokemon are also benefiting in usage due to this trend. What's more so is that I don't see anything that's really prohibited by this change except for poorly built / gimmick teams, but imo, that's kind of a good thing. lol

Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

It really depends. Like I said earlier, you really do have to think about which target you want to put to sleep and you really do have to analyze which of the two Pokemon is more threatening. You also have to be weary if the opponent will use Protect on the pokemon that you're aiming for or they'll just switch out to a grass-type to absorb the sleep and snatch your momentum. At the end of the day, how sleep effects the match depends on your ability to outplay your opponent. If you play poorly, you will lose, and this is something that I'd like to come back to in that for Pokemon / strategies that are ridiculously broken, you can play like dog shit and still win, but that's far from the truth with sleep, and to me, it further cements my position that sleep is balanced.

What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

Taunt, Safety Goggles, Lum Berry, Safe Guard, Skymin, Talonbird, Goodra, etc. There are enough Pokemon / strategies / items that can be used that are common and good enough to counter sleep. Safety Goggles is admittedly something that's rather specific, but it can completely screw with Sleep strategies should you carry it with a Follow Me user. I know for a fact that Jirachi can easily cock block Venusaur and Amoonguss, and Togekiss can deal with Breloom and Jumpluff. But again, these are just specific examples for teams that don't feel like messing with their slots / movesets too much. Simply carrying a Lum Berry on something like Cresselia (which lures sleep like a moth to a flame) can easily throw your opponent for a loop and that's just one example out of the many that you can use to get the upper hand against sleep users.

Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

No. I think the meta is just fine the way it is. As far as other clauses go (Moody, Evasion, OHKO), releasing any of the others just introduces an unnecessary amount of luck into the game, which is never a positive. The other clause (species) is just a no-brainer in regards to something that shouldn't be brought down. As far as the current Ubers go, I know some people having been talking about Groudon...but that seems like a huge stretch. Furthermore, I feel as if introducing any other Ubers will change the dynamic of the doubles meta for the worse. They're all really powerful either supportively or offensively, and I feel as if their introduction will create a ridiculous influx of "overcentrilzation" among other things. I think after this test, Doubles is probably done suspecting at this point. Although, I do think it's a good idea to keep a good eye on the ramifications of sleep and possibly revisit it if any problems incur later on.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

i personally think sleep isnt broken and the sleep clause should be removed. this is mainly due to sleep spam not being as deadly as thought before the test.

people are coming up with new ways all the time to counter sleep: follow me safety goggles togekiss, lum safeguard cress etc. i personally like talonflame as it can beat all sleep inducers with relative ease with fitting nicely into offensive teams.

i think lack of sleep clause restricts teambuilding a tiny bit as no ways to beat sleep will result in a loss against all sleep spam. however, it really makes no difference, as cress and toge are run on most teams anyway, they just have more options for moves now.

 

[Pocket]

Thanks for the submission, guys. Note that this is a DISCUSSION, so responding to other people's responses are encouraged. Those questions were only meant as a guide, not as questions that must be answered.

I have to agree with Ash Borer that the uncertainty of sleep rolls can really put a damper on Sleep inducers ability to shut down opponents. It particularly hurts the faster sleeper, where the sleeping Pokemon burns its one sleep roll in the same turn. Testing 5 different "break sleep" teams made me realize the fleeting nature of the sleep status. Honestly I am probably better off spreading permanent status conditions like paralysis than sleep. I invested multiple turns trying to disable the opponent with sleep, while the gains are not as big as one would expect for such a timely investment. Honestly Sleep Spam is an inefficient strategy that is hard to exploit. Sleep Clause is unnecessary IMO, because Sleep already limits itself with the low sleep rolls.

Players can coast through this metagame with their pre-suspect teams. That fact alone indicates the non-pervasive nature of sleep spam. Only ordinary amount of preparation is required to handle sleep spam. I agree with those who regard sleep spam as just another support option like Fake Out, Wide Guard, Follow Me, Trick Room, etc, with its own unique advantages and setbacks.

I already posted this in the metagame discussion thread, but Trick Room is not hindered by Sleep spam. Follow Me support is all one needs to set up Trick Room. Even if the opponent is using Amoonguss, Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Mega Abomasnow, Overcoat Escavalier, and Overcoat Reuncilus completely ignore Amoonguss's Rage Powder and Spore.

As Pinoy Pwnage has mentioned, Safety Goggles Follow Me users are full-stop to Sleep Inducers. Full-stop to sleep exists, yet people find success without resorting to such techniques, because Sleep Spam is quite frankly unimpressive. It takes a ton of effort to make it work, and sometimes I questioned whether it was worth it. If a player is able to execute sleep spam effectively and win a game, then that victory is well-earned.

Remember this: If sleep ever becomes overbearing in the future, we will re-visit Sleep again. So don't make your decision to retain Sleep Clause based on the unrealized "potential brokenness" of sleep that you theorymonned. When Sleep spam reaches this broken potential, we will address the sleep issue then.

 

[Blizzard]

Just saying like almost every sleep pokemon is grass and will by pass rage powder.

I suppose i wasn't very clear. Yeah, i admit Rage Powder is kinda useful only when it comes to hypnosis or..yawn or.. lovely kiss or something. i know how the mechanics work, i suppose i should've mentioned it properly.

Amoonguss is not a check to sleep it merely stops 1 pokemon from being put to sleep but amoonguss can't do nothing to stop the pokemon to put other people to sleep,most grass types are the same for example ferrothorn can eat up a sleep powder from mega venusaur but it can't do anything to stop mega venu from putting other things to sleep.

I completely agree that grass types shouldn't solely be used for countering sleep. What i was implying was that grass types are a good switch-in to powder based moves and by taking advantage of it, you could essentially weaken the sleep-inducer by your other pokemon on the field. By switching in, say, amoonguss on a predicted sleep powder, the other mon, say, mega-kangaskhan, of yours is free to attack that sleep-inducer and weaken it, and essentially make that turn go waste. And grass types usually make a person think twice before using sleep powder, which is always good. That is how i believe most people take advantage of sleep other than protect or fake out etc.

Sorry for not being very clear. I should be more precise in the future, lol.

 

[Orphic]

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?From the experience I gathered in laddering doubles (my first time ever) I didn't find sleep to be overcentralizing at all! I encountered sleep 5-6 times and each time managed to overcome it. The use of protect, lum berry, grass pokemon, safety goggles and offensive pressure allowed me to make easy work of sleep teams.

Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?Teambuilding was not an issue for me at all, a team does not need to over prepare for sleep, as I previously mentioned, a combination of good predictions, protect and offensive pressure (Charizard Y is very useful), sleep can be handled quite simply.

Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
Like with OU, Mega Kangaskhan is still a huge threat that could be considered for being OP, especially when used in conjunction with sleep mons.

 

[finally]

#shortpost

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

Definitely not broken. Sleep isn't particularly hard to play around, and it's not something that every team has to overprepare for or use itself. It's just as easy to make a good team without a sleep move in this meta as it was in the last - aka not hard. I'm gonna get straight to the point I made in my post in the last thread though. IT'S NOT FUN. I don't care if sleep isn't broken, I don't care if you can play around it; it's not fun to play against, so I really don't like the absence of sleep clause. At this point I would just be repeating what I said in the other thread, but there is one point I forgot to make. One of the big reasons I play doubles is because I really enjoy how fast paced this metagame is, and that battles are often over in under 10-15 turns. With sleep clause, battles are extended a lot further. Not only are you being forced to switch around to play most effectively which already lengthens the battles, but when a Pokemon is asleep, that's already at least one turn where it can't do shit and the battle is extended that little bit. Without sleep clause, that really adds up and makes for tedious games that take away from the enjoyment that is the reason i play doubles in the first place.

tl;dr - not overcentralizing/broken, but not fun either, so sleep clause should stick around.

nothing else really its a great meta WITH SLEEP CLAUSE

I actually think this is an important part of the unbanning of the sleep clause. As already brought up between Electrolyte and Pwnemon, the unbanning of sleep clause will most likely deter newer players. And even though this should not change the ultimate decision of whether or not sleep clause is unbanned, it does bring up interesting thoughts. Do we play the game to have fun? Do we form our meta/bans around not only what is broken, but what is also simply annoying to face (the current prankster swagger discussion in OU would be an example)? How much do we value being more accessible to newer players?
Just to answer some of my questions:
Is it fun? I think that the metagame is still enjoyable. Although I do not like it when my pokemon are not moving because they are sleeping or when I feel a sense of helplessness from not being able to switch (because the switch-in will get put to sleep), I feel as if that feeling is not unbearable.
Should we ban it because it is annoying to face (already proven time and again it is not broken)? Again, I do not feel that it is overly annoying. There are a lot of annoying things in pokemon, but I do not believe sleep to be something which should be banned on account of its annoyingness.
Should we be more accessible to newer players? I think we should try, but only to the extent that it keeps the metagame healthy. An example would be maintaining ubers in ubers even if newer players want them unbanned. For the specific example of sleep clause, I would say that according to this methodology we should not unban for the nubs for the sake of ease for them. However, many other cases have been brought up which outweigh the need for simplicity for newer players.

And that brings me to believe that Braverius is very right in that the sleep clause vote will ultimately come down to personal preference. We've seen ways to abuse and fight against sleep. Viable abusers and viable counters exist without overextending the metagame.
Ultimately I think sleep should be unbanned. The counters to it are prevalent enough. However, I would regret that if we formally unbanned sleep clause the metagame would not become as diverse. The stuff that abuses sleep was already good, and will get better (chlorosaur), and the stuff that was good before sleep will get better because it counters sleep even better (talonflame).
As for the next suspect tests, I do not think we should start unbanning some clauses as suggested by other users. The OHKO clause and the evasion clauses are in place because they add too much luck, uncompetitiveness, etc to the game. I think we can all agree that those strategies are uncompetitive and not fun to face. Even if they are easy to beat, the strategies are not competitive.

 

[atomicllamas]

Do we play the game to have fun? Do we form our meta/bans around not only what is broken, but what is also simply annoying to face (the current prankster swagger discussion in OU would be an example)? How much do we value being more accessible to newer players?

I just wanted to point out that the swagger prankster discussion in OU is not about it being annoying, or not fun to face (although it really is, lol) it is actually about whether or not prankster swagger is competitive, because people argue it takes the autonomy of decision making out of pokemon (and therefore makes it a game of chance rather than skill and chance). I don't think the same can be said of Sleep, in that there are reasonable ways of combating it without making the game into a series of coin flips. Another thing that I'd like to point out is that there has never been something banned because it impedes "fun", so there is no precedent set for banning an unpleasant part of the game. That being said, usually bans work the other way (testing the banning rather than the unbanning), so maybe there is a little wiggle room to say, this is making the meta game less pleasant so although it isn't broken we can leave it banned. I never found it to be unpleasant fighting sleep abuse teams though, so I don't think, in this case, that is the way to go.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'm going to answer these questions out of order:

Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame? It increases the diversity of the metagame. Things like Breloom, Amoonguss and Smeargle which are mid-tier on their best days are now viable in doubles. It makes Sleep-immune pokemon (aka Grass-types) more useful. It increases item diversity by making Lum/Chesto Berry and Safety Goggles a good option. Sleep Talk becomes a good move on Choice users like Talonflame (who coincidentally OHKOs every sleep user 2/3 of the time with Sleep Talk assuming no protects or w/e). There are no pokemon I can think of where I'd say "damn, I would use this...but Sleep Powder users are too damn powerful!!"

Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep? Personally, all I did was add Sleep Talk to my Talonflame. It was only useful on a couple of matches. Almost every Sleep user is extremely slow, so they are easy to take out with 2 pokemon focusing at once. They are also easily Taunted and redirected via Rage Powder/Follow Me. Sleep isn't a great strategy, since so few pokemon can pull it off. It's more like the glue than the foundation of a good team. Remember, we're talking about putting BOTH pokemon to sleep, not just one. Much different.

Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? I think it's positive to have more options, and more to think about during the game. I don't think it's overpowering.

How does Sleep affect the metagame? Not very much. Removing Sleep Clause is just a buff to Venusaur and Amoonguss in the metagame right now.

Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam? Most of the time, no. When you are risking Sleep, you have fewer pokemon and attacks to work with. It makes your team more predictable. You are spending turns rolling the dice, praying they don't wake up with a nasty surprise. So few pokemon even learn Sleep moves, and even fewer are good at using them.

What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep? Any Fire attack. Talonflame. Choice Users with Sleep Talk. Berries. Taunt. Safeguard. Use fast pokemon. Get lucky and wake up after 1 turn.

Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council? I think this meta is extremely balanced right now, most of the "borderline-Ubers" in singles play are beatable in doubles. I'm talking about Blaziken, Excadrill, Deoxys, Genesect, Mega Lucario, Mega Kangaskhan, etc. Sun is balanced by sand rain and Wide Guard. I'm liking this meta more eevery time I play it.

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing? If Sleep Clause was voted to be enforced, I wouldn't be surprised. It's just tradition at this point. Dark Void is banned with or without Sleep Clause, so I think having BOTH banned is pointless. Nobody likes being the guy who rolls 99% instead of OHKOing, then getting Slept for 3 turns and losing at the end. But that's...extremely rare and way harder to pull off in Doubles. Sleep Clause is really not necessary in this meta right now, and would actually open new doors for a lot of cool pokemon.

 

[LightningLuxray]

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

I think at first, Sleep was a pretty deadly threat, with Pokemon such as Chlorosaur, Jumpluff, and Ammoongus being able to do a lot to teams. I think that after a while, though, Sleep started to be easier to deal with. Grass type Pokemon, items such as Lum Berry Safety Goggles, Abilities such as Sap Sipper and Overcoat, and moves such as Safeguard, Taunt, and Sleep Talk are all ways that can be easily slapped on teams, and can help with Sleep a lot. It's somewhat overcentralizing, though. I feel like at least during this suspect test, a lot of teams were either based around Sleep or based around countering it. However, I think if Sleep Clause is eventually lifted permanently, Sleep will stop being as big of a factor as it was (Due to a lot of people trying out Sleep during this test, and seeing what it could do)

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep

Teambuilding is restricted some from this, but not all that much. I feel like a lot of the time, teams are already running a Sleep counter, whether they mean to or not. However, this can be quite restricting if the person isn't running a Sleep counter. For me personally, I found that a lot of times having just Shymin wasn't enough to counter Sleep, especially when Pokemon such as Charizard-Y, Heatran, and Talonflame were paired up with with common Sleep users. I think a lot of the time, running at least 2-3 Sleep counters is the best way to deal with Sleep, which can be quite annoying is you aren't running a Safeguard support Pokemon or a Grass-type already on your team. I think overall, though, while Sleep can be annoying to prepare for if your team isn't already prepared for it, I feel like most teams are prepared for it, and that most times you don't have change a team all that much in order to counter Sleep.

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

Sleep definitely limits diversity, but not by much. Pokemon who abuse Sleep, as well as Pokemon that counter Sleep are now used on about 75% of teams. Choloraur, Jumpluff, Ammoongus, and Breloom are all used on plenty of teams. Not only that, but I've noticed that Skymin, Goodra, and Safeguard support Pokemon such as Klefki and Meowstic-M have also been on a lot of teams, especially higher up on the ladder. It's quite annoying to be seeing the same types of Sleep teams over and over again, but I think eventually, the meta will become more diverse as people find other ways to deal with Sleep.

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

Honestly, at this point, I'm not exactly sure. While it is quite annoying, and I feel like it's somewhat overcentralizing ATM, I feel as though its not as hard to prepare for as I once thought, and once the suspect ladder is over, I feel like a lot of teams will stop abusing Sleep as much as they once had. I think for now I'm going to have to go with a neutral impact, as while it's not necessarily broken, it's not necessarily fun to play with, either.

• Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

To be honest... not really. Most of the time, if you have a Sleep Pokemon out, you can really just spam sleep moves at near no cost. Sleep literally stops one of your opponents Pokemon from doing anything, meaning it leaves your opponent with only one Pokemon that can do anything. If both of the Pokemon your opponent has out on the field aren't able to eliminate the Sleep user, then you're opponent will have to do some smart switching in order to avoid it.

• What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

Grass type Pokemon, items such as Lum Berry Safety Goggles, Abilities such as Sap Sipper and Overcoat, and moves such as Safeguard, Taunt, and Sleep Talk are all previously mentioned ways to deal with Sleep. Their may be more that I'm not thinking of, but these are the main ones.

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

Hmmm... at the moment, not really.



Anyways, these are my thought on Sleep ATM. Right now, I'm not sure whether or not Sleep Clause is needed or not. I'm planning on reading the posts on this thread, then making a final decision. Hopefully I make the right one!

 

[Darkmalice]

I actually think this is an important part of the unbanning of the sleep clause. As already brought up between Electrolyte and Pwnemon, the unbanning of sleep clause will most likely deter newer players. And even though this should not change the ultimate decision of whether or not sleep clause is unbanned, it does bring up interesting thoughts. Do we play the game to have fun? Do we form our meta/bans around not only what is broken, but what is also simply annoying to face (the current prankster swagger discussion in OU would be an example)? How much do we value being more accessible to newer players?

I think this is important and may actually sway the decisions of some votes. People may vote to ban sleep clause not because they think it's broken, but because they feel the metagame is less fun without sleep clause or more luck-based without it (number of turns that it takes to wake up). Remember that Snow Cloak got banned in 5th Gen OU with Sand Veil despite no one complaining that Snow Cloak Mamoswine, Froslass etc was broken in OU.


Anyways, I don't feel sleep is too broken. Sleep isn't actually that powerful, and it's sorta become another Doubles strategy like Trick Room and Tailwind in the sense that it's a support move that, when set up, helps give you an advantage for a certain time period. All forms can be checked, but none of them can be made unviable. And simply put, a well-made team can check all of them; even teams without on-paper checks to sleep like Grass-types or Lum berry have been shown to handle sleep well as they team is so well-constructed.

Sleep doesn't restrain teambuilding excessively. The biggest impact it's had has been on full Trick Room teams forcing them to run more checks to sleep like Abomasnow and Overcoat Escavalier, some of which were already popular like Abomasnow. In reality it hasn't been too much of a change; all the TR teams with Reuniclus I've seen have still kept Magic Guard instead of Overcoat (not necessarily something I agree with though). Its also forced other teams to take it into account, but no Pokemon have become unviable due to a loss of sleep, and none are really worse off (you just can't have an entire team weak to it). And Grass-types have become more viable, in particular Jumpluff.

In terms of overall positive/negative impact on the Doubles Metagame, I feel that the increased viability of Gras-types is positive whilst the minor nerf to full TR treams is negative. This would be an overall positive if it were not for Jumpluff. As evidence by posts in the metagame discussion set, it can be a rage-inducing set, as it pretty much revolves around putting things to sleep and taking advantage of said sleep; even Amoonguss doesn't entirely focus on sleep. And rage means less fun. I'll say the overall impact has been negative because of Jumpluff, even though I am not convinced that Jumpluff is broken (or any Pokemon currently for that matter).

The opportunity cost of sleep balance compared to sleep spam really depends on the battle so I won't comment on that. The option, however, to sleep one Pokemon and then sleep the other Pokemon is always beneficial even if you don't decide to take it, as it means your opponent can no longer be satisfied knowing that with one sleep Pokemon, he is safe from sleep spam. I feel this threat of sleep spam, even if not the best move, always works to the sleep user's advantage, giving the users more options. For example, in this replay of mine, on turn 5, I could feel safe using Spore Salamence even though I decided to KO Jirachi with Shadow Ball beforehand, and this is because I knew Spore would work even if he switched Jirachi out. This helped me to recover from my early game lazy play, and my opponent could never get that advantage back.

 

[Electrolyte]

I have some disagreements on how much we should weigh the fun argument in this discussion (because "fun" is basically just a euphemism for "competitive" and it is difficult and pointless to try to define what "fun" is for each and every individual.) but I won't go into depth because most people seem to agree that it's not an issue in this case, since the removal of Sleep Clause doesn't make the metagame less fun.

Also, if you do like to the fun aka competitive argument, the removal of Sleep Clause would only be supporting you in that regard. The ability to use Sleep moves multiple times punishes bad playing and bad teambuilding a lot, which can be seen by the fact that most Sleep abusing teams can reach reqs or peak the skill-less ladder relatively quickly. Also, it's not just a lack of Sleep counters that it punishes for, which is pretty unique. Overcoming well played and well built Sleep abuse takes a lot more than just a Safeguard Cresselia. Removing Sleep Clause encourages greater investment of time to improve team quality and play skill not only on the ladder but also in more competitive environments.


My only concern with Sleep Clause was the issue of diversity, but jrrrrrrr made an interesting observation in his post. Unlike specific Pokemon or weather strategies, Sleep abuse does not target singular Pokemon or even groups of Pokemon. There are really very few Pokemon that are personally damaged so much more by Sleep than others that they become unviable because of it. Because of this, you won't see the characteristic fall in usage of certain Pokemon if we decide to remove Sleep Clause because almost all Pokemon are affected equally.

This also leads to another interesting point. Since Sleep Clause inflicts no negative damage on usage, we can look to its positive effects with a lot more assurance that we'll be safe if we remove the clause. It seems that Sleep Clause really only has beneficial effects- increases in usage of Grass-types and increases in usage of counter-strategies (Safety Goggles, Safeguard) only make the meta more diverse. And more diversity is good.

Sleep Clause isn't limiting the usage of anything important; it's only making a few uncommon things much more viable. It's safe to say that we can remove it.

 

[Pocket]

You bring up some good points, Darkmalice, but Evasion and Sleep are two different beasts. Passive Evasion like Snow Cloak offered nothing competitive (as defined by Smogon). There is nothing you can do about the increased chances of missing outside of changing weather (which only fueled people's complaints about the heavy emphasis on weather back in BW2). You can actually overcome sleep with good plays and some minor tweak or two to your team. With the new sleep nerfs of XY, Sleep is a much tamer status condition compared to sleep from BW2, as well.

Also Jumpluff is just silly. A Pokemon whose only function is to spread Sleep is bound to fall short. Sleep is a support option to facilitate your own offense. However, in Jumpluff's case, you're forced to support your support Pokemon, which kinda defeats the purpose and stretches the team thin x_x;; Granted we have Pokemon like Kangaskhan, who can support Jumpluff and benefit from Jumpluff's Sleep Spam, but honestly there are better ways to support Kangaskhan than dedicating an entire Pokemon slot for a frail Sleep Spam Pokemon x_x

As for Sleep not being "fun..." that is an extremely subjective argument, even for a subjective discussion such as suspect testing. I personally find it entertaining when I am able to successfully pull some cool Sleep Spam effectively (since it rarely happens) or cockblock the opponent's effort at putting my team to sleep. I find the addition of Sleep to be reinvigorating and refreshing. I get to see some previously criminally underused mons like Breloom in action, as well as previously underused Pokemon like Darkrai and Goodra. Granted certain top threats like Shaymin-S, Thundurus, Talonflame, Venusaur, and Charizard may have gone up in usage, but I haven't really seen Sleep kill the viability of certain Pokemon. Players are also deploying formerly underappreciated moves like Taunt, Substitute, and Safeguard, which I consider a good thing. I think Sleep has brought a net positive in terms of metagame diversity tbh - I think I have seen a lot more variety of Pokemon and strategies than before the test, but that may just be me.

I don't even think Sleep would scare away promising newcomers, because those who actually know how to play Pokemon would realize the nominal effect of Sleep spam to the metagame. The fact that many players who are playing Doubles for the first time are supporting the removal of Sleep Clause is a testament that new players can take up Doubles without training wheels.

 

[Haruno]

I don't even think Sleep would scare away promising newcomers, because those who actually know how to play Pokemon would realize the nominal effect of Sleep spam to the metagame. The fact that many players who are playing Doubles for their first time are supporting the removal of Sleep Clause is a testament that new players can take up Doubles without training wheels.

I recall joim saying he got a shit ton of rage quits at team preview when he was using a based team full of singles ubers (deo-a, darkrai, mega kang, skymin, etc) and I know this isn't ubers but I know that newcomers are often turned off by our lack of evasion clause in the tier. So I think sleep might turn off newer players

 

[Lasagne]

I recall joim saying he got a shit ton of rage quits at team preview when he was using a based team full of singles ubers (deo-a, darkrai, mega kang, skymin, etc) and I know this isn't ubers but I know that newcomers are often turned off by our lack of evasion clause in the tier. So I think sleep might turn off newer players

js we do have evasion clause in doubles

 

[termi]

Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
Sleep is, surprisingly, quite fine in the metagame. Even though at first I feared that without sleep clause, certain things that were otherwise a fine addition to the meta would have to be banned, it turns out that generally, sleep is not at all a bad influence on the meta, as there are plenty of ways to stop it (Safeguard, Overcoat, Grass types, Taunt, etc) and generally, the people who try to abuse sleep to the fullest extent fail at teambuilding, as the amount of Pokemon that can successfully put as many things as possible to sleep are limited in number and show bad team synergy (not to mention some are plain awful (yes yungjake, Jumpluff is awful, now begone))
Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?It barely restrains teambuilding. At first I tried laddering with a team that had Venusaur, Overcoat Mandibuzz and Sleep Talk Talonflame, but as it turned out I was much better off using an old team that had Mega Venusaur and Talonflame and it was more than enough to keep sleep in check. Meanwhile, I did find that my Mega Venusaur managed to put several mons of my opponents' teams to sleep when they were unprepared, but even then it wasn't a be-all end-all way of winning.
Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?I'd say it's neither, as it now stimulates the use of the otherwise underrated move Safeguard, while otherwise it only slightly restrains teambuilding, but not in a negative way. There are plenty of ways to deal with sleep, as long as you keep it in mind you can build a team that's successful both against sleep spam and "regular" teams. As far as Trick Room's concerned, I'd say you can still build successful Trick Room teams, it's just that you have to have a TR setter that doesn't mind Sleep Powder/Spore, but luckily there's plenty of those so in that sense the diversity is still there imo.
Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?It affects the metagame in a slightly positive way, as it can truly punish bad teambuilding and you only need so much preparation to get around it, and the damage done by removing sleep clause is surprisingly low otherwise.
Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?Yes, most sleep-inducing moves are inaccurate and relying on sleep too much can cause you to lose when your opponent gets a one-turn sleep. Amoonguss is the only Pokemon that can spam sleep without any opporunity cost, as it's got access to Spore and it's so bulky that it can't be bothered by one-turn sleeps either, but hey, Amoonguss was an annoying piece of shit before the suspect test anyways so nothing's changed in that regard, really.
What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?Safeguard, Grass types, Overcoat, Sleep Talk Talonflame (its 4th moveslot is filler anyway), Fake Out, Taunt, yeah pretty much enough to safely defeat the sleeps
Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?Doubles is different than Singles in that many things that are broken in Singles show flaws in Doubles that prevent them from becoming broken here. Mega Kangaskhan is the most obvious example here, as in Doubles, her ability to sweep is much smaller than in OU due to there being two Pokemon to take care of, plus the fact that her ability doesn't work with spread moves. On top of that, being prone to being burned or Intimidated plays a huge part in the whole thing as well. The same goes for pretty much anything that is currently legal in the meta, and therefor I suggest no bans. I would, however, suggest that we drop Giratina-O down. (This is a lie, we have already seen that Gira-O would not be healthy for the metagame don't worry guise)

 

[Stratos]

I tried to make a team with sleep abuse, and what I learned is that you really can't rely on it for shit. I feel like sleep, in a weird way, works like follow me—its only real good use is to turn terrakion vs ferrothorn into a good matchup for the ferrothorn. For anything else, 'putting a pokemon out of commission' with sleep is far too risky and likely to end up with them reentering commission at precisely the wrong time. In one match I had with champetero, i tried to sleep his charizard-y to give my scizor some breathing room, but it got a one turn wake and scizor got spit-roasted. Every time I've played a team that tried to use sleep and then not attack the sleeping mon, it would wake up and just end up shitting all over them anyways. People are theorymonning fucking gravity+hypnosis to be broken—HOW? you are spending an entire turn to put something to sleep; meanwhile that things partner gets an entire free turn to anal your hypnosis user. I faced gravity + hypnosis and it got smashed... If you really need to, you can counter sleep by running lum (an already good item on many phys attackers) or safeguard (an already good move on almost every team), but you probably won't, because sleep can be played around easily. If we don't free sleep, i will be pretty disappointed in you guys.

 

[Alaka]

While sleep is good, it has never shown to be broken in the doubles format. In fact, it allows for some of the more interesting teams of each generation. Lieloom, Lopunny, Parasect are all some of the cooler innovations in each meta and sleep clause would prevent that aspect of the game. However, as interesting as these were, they were clearly never game breaking, and this is even more true in a 6v6 format. Five years of competitive experience in a sleep clauseless format allows me to say with some certainty that outside of banning Dark Void, limiting sleep is completely unnecessary.