Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Vert]

In regards to Tornadus-T, I think the main reason it isn't overwhelming anymore is that there's no longer permanent rain to abuse with Hurricane, so it no longer has a reliable offensive move for dealing heavy damage.

I don't understand the "rain" argument. Rain can still be used and it can set-up its own rain. It doesn't even need rain: it can use Hurricane without despite its 70% accuracy. You can even just use Air Slash which still 2HKOes pretty much everything that doesn't resist it. Regenerator makes sure it doesn't where down. It doesn't care about Stealth Rock or Toxic because of it. U-turn compunds with this and all Life Orb damage is negated. You gain 23% by using U-turn actually. It's speed is amazing letting it revenge kill things like Gengar and Latias with Knock Off. Did I mention Knock Off? It is very good in the current metagame and lets it get past crap like Chansey with Knock Off + Superpower. It takes away Leftovers. Even if Tornadus-T takes massive damage after using it, it can gain it back with Regenerator. It can run Taunt which completely stops Deoxys-D leads and walls like Chansey. It can use Heat Wave to demolish Excadrill and Mega Scizor. It can use Superpower to maul Blissey and Tyranitar. It has Focus Blast to nuke Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Excadrill. I have seen Rain Offense work and Politoed + Kingdra + Tornadus-T is one of the scariest cores now alive for rain teams to abuse. Tornadus-T can even set-up its own rain, so it can sweep with LO Hurricane. Flying-STAB is such an amazing offensive typing to work with that its unbelievable.

Tornadus-T is the best offensive pivots (along with Scizor + Rotom-W) in this metagame. It should move to B+ or even A-

 

[Salemance]

I'm pretty much okay with this entire change except one thing; Rotom-W. Rotom-W deserves to stand at A+, this is the very same pokemon that people were once arguing for S-rank. Perusing the VR thread, the arguments against Rotom-W are "it doesn't have reliable recovery" and "its checks are everywhere". Rotom-W acts best as a pivot. Not as a wall or as an offensive behemoth, but as a pivot with brilliant typing and ability that effectively leaves him with one uncommon weakness in grass. As a pivot, he pretty much gets to Volt Switch whenever he wants. Only things that can reliably stop him are Lanturn, Quagsire, and Gastrodon. Everything else that could stop a Volt Switch risks getting a Hydro Pump to the face. He is easily THE best Volt Switcher in the game as he can volt switch with little to no risk whatsoever. There's literally nothing (except for the aforementioned 3 pokemon above) that can stop Rotom-W from doing his job as a pivot.

Aside from snagging momentum, he can also cripple physical attackers with burn. Of course, skilled players would probably foresee the Will-O-Wisp coming and prevent their physical attacker from being burnt, but in the end, something still has to take the WoW. Not only is Rotom-W the best volt switcher in OU, he's also arguably the best user of Will-O-Wisp too. The utility packed within these two moves alone are insane. Add Rotom-W's second STAB (Hydro pump) into the mix and pretty much every pokemon in A+ would hesitate switching in on Rotom-W (M-Venusaur don't like them burns, nor does Kyurem-B or M-Gyrados).

Rotom-W's fourth move is usually Rest or Pain Split. While both of them are not quite as reliable as something like Roost, they're both ways of increasing Rotom-W's longevity. Rotom-W may not be able to tank as many hits as a wall like Hippowodon, but do not make the mistake of identifying Rotom-W as a wall. He usually comes in to cripple something or volt switch out, only using Hydro Pump when a ground pokemon not named Gastrodon or Quagsire think they can stop the impending Volt Switch. Rotom-W is a pivot pokemon first, and he makes for a darn fine one. Do you know what's also a great pivot pokemon? Landorus-T, who's A+. While nothing is immune to bug (thus nothing can stop a U-turn), I feel that Landorus-T isn't quite as good as a pivot as Rotom-W due to his weaknesses of water and ice. Yes, I'm ignoring his other sets, but I feel that Landorus-T and his bulky pivot set alone is enough to warrant his A+ ranking (granted, his versatility is obviously a plus, but Rotom-W also has some versatility since he can run a Trick+Scarf set).

And I would like to bring up an intriguing argument I saw on the VR Viability Ranking thread; It has become expected and entirely fightable. While Rotom-W has a lot of sets, it generally runs Physically Defensive as that's its best atm as it deals good team support, yet a Special attacker can just come in and easily punish you. While he has better than normal speed for something ment to take hits, its still Base 80, and there are a hell of a lot of things that can outspeed and threaten it.

Does he have access to Volt Switch? Yes, yes he does, but that is not the be all end all like U-Turn, as there are multiple ways to deal with electric attacks. Yes he has water attacks to hit ground types (much to my annoyance) but he is forced to use that on a threat he can not handle, thus bringing in one to handle said threat THAT THE OPPONENT CAN SEE COMING! It may be a great help for him, but he can not spam it freely. While he does Volt Switch spam anyway (which is often what most do as its "safe") he has no real threatening power outside of his Hydro Pump, which is not as spectacular as it once was (Nice neutral coverage sure, but it still doesn't hit as hard as it would like with uninvested attack alongside no rain).

Course I myself can see him as either A or A+, just not S rank obviously, but that is one argument I saw that I thought was quite interesting and thought I would like to bring back up.

I would like to resume the idea of moving Tangrowth up, but atm I believe the Ranks need to be made to look less crowded...I mean, C+ ranking is ridiculous atm along B-. Hopefully we can see something to be dropped/raised/removed in its entirety.

EDIT: Possible drop for Machamp and raise/drop for Ninetales possibly? Yalls thoughs on the idea?

 

[Amaan]

Chesnaught should at least be in B or B+, he does quite the same thing as Ferrothorn, but he can shut things down even better, despite sporting a 4x weakness to flying. Bisharp is walled and Chesnaught can OHKO back with Hammer Arm. Tyranitar not running Ice Punch is also shut down. Garchomp doesn't like taking Spikey Shield and leech seed damage. Aegislash doesn't like not being able to hit it with Shadow ball either. Aside from being a tank. Chesnuaght can also absorb common moves like Focus Blast. He can also set up spikes, though you shouldn't be doing that with so many defoggers running around. All in all, one of the very best support Pokemon out there.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I'm just going to post my most recent nominations from the old forum:

Ok, here are my thoughts:

Chesnaught for B+/B
Chesnaught is such a good Pokemon this gen. It's Grass/Fighting typing is extremely helpful for defensive teams, as it allows him to resist the popular EdgeQuake combination. Leech Seed and Spiky Shield are also really great moves that can easily where down physical attackers. Synthesis provides reliable Recovery, and his ability, Bulletproof, allows Chesanught to wall Pokemon it would never normally wall before, such as Aegislash and Gengar. Overall, this thing's great typing, ability, and support movepool warrant B in my eyes, if not B+.

Next, I'd like to nominate Celebi for B-
Celebi is criminally under-rated this generation. While it's defensive set may face serious competition from Mega Venusaur, offensive Celebi is one of the best specially-offensive Grass-types in the tier. With access to STAB Leaf Storm and Psychic, as well as great coverage moves in Earth Power, Ancient power, and Hidden Power, Celebi can definitely do a lot of damage to the opponent's team. Combine this with the fact that it's one of the best Rotom-W counters in the game, and you have an great offensive Pokemon on your hands. Celebi's offensive set differentiates itself from Mega Venusaur by having more Speed, and more importantly, it doesn't take up a Mega slot, allowing you to run other potential Mega Evolutions such as Pinsir, Charizard, and Tyranitar.

I'd also like to nominate Thundurus-T for B-
Thundurus-T definitely faces a lot of competition from it's other Electric/Flying brethren, Zapdos and Thundurus. However, Thundurus-T differentiates itself by having a massive base 145 SpA, making it hit much harder than Thundurus. Thundurus-T's Dual Dance set is still very potent, even with the Hidden Power nerf, as it's large attack stat means it can still dish out a lot of damage. I've also used a Choice Scarf Thundurus on a Rain team of mine, and it's been doing surprisingly well, especially when in combination with other fast Pokemon such as Tornadus-T. All in all, while Thundurus-T has a lot of competition as an Electric/Flying type, it's niche is large enough to warrant B- in my eyes.

Finally, I'd like to nominate Vaporeon for C-/D
Vaporeon was a Pokemon who was in D rank last generation, and with things only getting worse for it, I see no reason for it to have risen. The Rain nerf hit Vaporeon the hardest, as it now cannot abuse the once usable Hydration + Rest combination. Even with this combination, it faces serious competition from Pokemon such as Manaphy and Goodra for a spot as a Hydration Rest user. It also finds its role as a bulky-water type heavily outclassed by Quagsire on stall, who with access to Unaware makes it a much better option. All I can really see Vaporeon doing in OU is Baton Pass, which even then leaves it at a very low rank in my eyes.

Also, I haven't had enough experience with it, but does Krookodile really warrant C+ status? It faces heavy competition for a bulky-Ground type by Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Gliscor, and to a lesser extent Quagsire and Gastrodon, all of which have access to much better bulk. All I can really see Krookodile doing is using it's Dark-typing to help absorb certain blows and it's access to Knock Off, but even then I feel like this thing would be perfectly fine in C.

EDIT: Just noticed Gothitelle is unranked ATM. This thing definitely deserves B-, due to it's amazing trapping skills. Especially against stall, if Gothitelle can switch in on the right Pokemon (Which usually will happen with smart double switching) then it can completely eliminate the Pokemon, which in turn can destroy cores. I do find this thing to be a dead weight a lot of the time against offense, however, but it's positive traits against stall really make it worthy of B-.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Fortress is a shadow of what he once was, not only has the 6th gen robbed him o much of his niche of "jack of all trades" in his ability to spin and set up harzards, it's introduced more dangerous threats to fortress as a hole, with tolon fame and physical threats such as mega pinsr who laugh and use it up as set up bait mroe so than previous generations and to add insult to injory the steel typing nef has robbed him of his dark/ghost resistances, even with the fairy resistance and hitting them se with it's stab it isn't remotely worth the value of loosing these, now two much more dangerous types.

I ask the question however, despite these flaws, why forretress is no longer in his old possession of c rank, nerfed he may be, but the niche, he still for fills and not every tam wants defog or can afford 2 pokemon to do the same job fortress can do in one set?

I'd argue Forretress needs to be bumped down to D rank. Sure, it's still the only Defensive Rapid Spin + Hazards pokemon in the meta, but is that a needed niche now when we have Excadrill (Offensive Rapid Spin + Hazards who can deal with most Spin Blockers who aren't packing an Air Balloon) and the wide array of Offensive and Defensive Defoggers available, AND the presence of Deo-S/Deo-D in the meta who can provide Hazards + additional value in terms of either offense, fast taunt/mirror coat or screens?

The teams that want both roles Forretress is offering - hazards removal and hazards - may have to use two different pokes to do what Forretress can do all alone, but they are doing it with two pokes that are way better individually and together than Forretress is alone or with his team. Heck, DeoD/DeoS basically achieve the same thing as Forretress does, just without using Rapid Spin, and they can play other roles on the team to boot.

 

[imaloony80]

I don't really see the point of this thread if everything of importance from now on will be discussed in the "1% Forum"

 

[LightningLuxray]

I don't really see the point of this thread if everything of importance from now on will be discussed in the "1% Forum"

Read the OP. They'll be taking smart, educated posts into account.

 

[Tornadus-T :D]

Honestly, Shaymin should be at least B-. While it gets kinda overshadowed by Celebi it has good all around base stats, the BEST offensive grass type move in the game (Seed Flare) and solid coverage make it a solid offensive threat. HP rock patches up coverage issues allowing it to 1hko Talonflame and Charizard (Pre mega)and pinsir
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 385-458 (129.1 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 328-390 (110 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
52 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 172-203 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 166-198 (48.6 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
Thundurus can't switch in on an HP rock
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 312-369 (114.7 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 190-226 (69.8 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 194-230 (56.8 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pinsir can't switch in after an HP Rock and is OHKO'd if it has mega evo'd
Also some other relevant calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 200-238 (48.3 - 57.4%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 151-179 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Aegislash can't stay in versus Shaymin nor switch in
Also note that Timid was used in all of these calcs.

I know this isn't that many threats but the point is is that offensive LO Shaymincan get past some of the top metagame threats with good prediction. The downsides are mono grass typing and requiring prediction to KO things like Talonflame. Otherwise Shaymin is really solid. Plus it's super cute!

 

[dumbguyfin]

I hope that combining these topics doesnt make this one less important. I am kinda afraid, that this topic will be ignored, and most chances happening in the other one (really hope that it is not going to be the case). I think that the ranking shifts should mainly come from this thread, since this is the topic where 90% of users will be posting to/reading. I liked the idea of having two diffferent lists, but maybe that is just me.
I would like to see a few pokes like Deoxys S, Keldeo, Landorus-I moved down to A. And Greninja, Excadrill lifted to A+.

 

[Widdly_Scuds]

So, it looks like Espeon is still C+ rank. While I may have been the first (albeit one of the less experienced) to bring up Espeon in the first viability ranking thread, I want to reiterate that Espeon should be at the VERY LEAST B-, if not B.

-Magic Coat is an ability that in incredibly useful on any team, making it any easy lead or switch onto any variant of Deoxys-D. This may be in itself niche, but Espeon in itself still has much more versatility, in that...

-Fantastic staple on Baton Pass teams. This was one of the main arguments in the previous threat. I only tested Espeon a couple times on tossing teams so there isn't much I can say about this, but it's great speed tier, access to Calm Mind, and the aforementioned Magic Coat makes it a great stable on these teams, if you so choose to run them.

-Dual Screens. With Espeon's top-tier ability, setting up dual-screens is all but guaranteed on any team. Any setup sweeper (I would like to note multiscale Dragonite, taking even less on x2 attacks, almost guaranteeing it getting 2 DDances) greatly appreciates this support. It may again be niche, sure, but it's still incredibly versatile on any offensive team and the best Magic Coat user around in the metagame.

 

[Boltaway]

Mawile: As one of the few people who has used Mawile on a Baton Pass team, I think it has a niche (D-rank, still of course), but what's problematic is that Mega Mawile is everything Mawile is, but better. I found that even without passive recovery in leftovers (you can use Pain Split, but that's subpar), Mega Mawile was a much more efficient use on Baton Pass. First off, it has Intimidate, which can be very valuable in clutch moments, such as handling Talonflame. Second, Steel/Fairy typing is amazing defensively, and allows Mawile to take on incoming Dragon Tails and Toxic (if for some reason you are not behind a sub). Third, M-Mawile's Mawilite ensures that Trick users such as Rotom-W don't stop your sweep (again, if not behind a sub). Fourth, Mawile has a wide range of moves valuable to Baton Pass -- some niche -- such as Taunt, Iron Defense, Stockpile, Swords Dance, Punishment, Sucker Punch, as well as a huge physical movepool to deal with specific threats -- Sucker Punch is arguably its biggest offensive niche on BP because M-Absol is shit. Fifth, M-Mawile has the benefit of being able to mega evolve as you see fit. It plays mindgames because often your opponent will brace for a hit under the suspicion it's the team's sweeper, allowing you to Baton Pass, boost, or sub. 50/125/95 defenses are really good in conjunction with its typing, and with specific defensive boosts + Intimidate, you can outlive nearly any physical hit and most special hits -- hence, you can use a lot of custom EVs to outspeed/OHKO/survive specific hits. But ultimately, I suggest removing Mawile from the list because M-Mawile outclasses it even in its Baton Pass niche.

Deoxys-S: Again, jumping on the bandwagon here to opine the sheer effectiveness of LO + 3 Attacks, LO + 2 Attacks, Sash + 3 Attacks, and even Dual Screens (but Klefki does that better imo). Its vast movepool makes it a custom revenge-killer: Psycho Boost for CharX, Superpower for Ttar, etc. See calcs below for more comprehensive matchups. You don't necessarily have to use it as a revenge killer either necessarily, as LO + 3 attacks puts a lot of pressure on standard defoggers. The standard 20/252/236 Naive spread is imo the best. This outspeeds DDers at +1 and Scarfchomp. I think that its flexibility really works as an offensive glue for teams, being able to handle miscellaneous threats and boosters.

Obligatory Wall of Calcs

vs Dragon Dancers
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 274-324 (91.9 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 274-324 (76.3 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 312-369 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 312-369 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 205-242 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 242-285 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs Defoggers
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 263-309 (68.6 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 216-255 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery :(
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 164-195 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs Common Scarfers*
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 473-562 (132.1 - 156.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 494-582 (129.3 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 333-393 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 263-309 (67 - 78.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

*Pokemon whose sets were over 10% Choice Scarf

So, yeah, Deoxys-S for S-rank.

Things that need to be moved, but too lazy to post

Volcarona --> B-
Jellicent --> C-
Moltres --> Remove (worthless with recent bans)
Quagsire --> B-/+
Meloetta --> Remove (what niche does it have?)
Shaymin --> Remove (outclassed by Roserade/M-Venusaur)
Honchkrow --> Remove (why is it on the list?)

 

[LightningLuxray]

Honestly, Shaymin should be at least B-. While it gets kinda overshadowed by Celebi it has good all around base stats, the BEST offensive grass type move in the game (Seed Flare) and solid coverage make it a solid offensive threat. HP rock patches up coverage issues allowing it to 1hko Talonflame and Charizard (Pre mega)and pinsir
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 385-458 (129.1 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 328-390 (110 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
52 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 172-203 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 166-198 (48.6 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
Thundurus can't switch in on an HP rock
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 312-369 (114.7 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 190-226 (69.8 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 194-230 (56.8 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pinsir can't switch in after an HP Rock and is OHKO'd if it has mega evo'd
Also some other relevant calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 200-238 (48.3 - 57.4%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 151-179 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Aegislash can't stay in versus Shaymin nor switch in
Also note that Timid was used in all of these calcs.

I know this isn't that many threats but the point is is that offensive LO Shaymincan get past some of the top metagame threats with good prediction. The downsides are mono grass typing and requiring prediction to KO things like Talonflame. Otherwise Shaymin is really solid. Plus it's super cute!

I love Shaymin, as it's one of my favorite Pokemon. However, I think C- is probably the best rank for it. Firstly, Celebi gives it serious competition. Not only does it have the ever-reliable recovery move in Recover, but it also has access to Ancient Power. While it may not seem like a big deal, Ancient Power allows Celebi to have 31 Speed IVs, unlike Shaymin, who must run 30 Speed IV's in order to use Hidden Power Rock. This means that Celebi can achieve Speed ties with Pokemon who have a base 100 Speed, most notably Charizard Y, who is OHKO'd after a little prior damage(252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 255-302 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO) Celebi also brings diversity, meaning that when it's sent out, you won't know what set it's running, what moves it has, it's item, etc. Shaymin, on the other hand, will almost always be running Seed Flare/Earth Power/Hidden Power Fire/Rock/Recovery move, meaning it's extremely predictable.

Roserade is another Grass-type who gives it competition. Roserade can support the team very well with Spikes, Sleep Powder, and Toxic Spikes, while also hitting decently hard with a base 125 SpA. It also has a nice STAB Sludge Bomb to work with.

Shaymin's biggest competitor, however, is Mega Venusaur. This thing has great bulk, but it also has good 122 SpA and a 100 Atk to work with. Combine this with moves such as Giga Drain, Earthquake, and Sludge Bomb, and Venusaur can be a great tank. It does all this while also having access to a decent Recovery move, making it one of the best Special Attaking Grass-types in the tier.

Overall, Shaymin has it's niche of firing off STAB Seed Flares, but it faces a lot of competition that leaves it at C-

Edit: Yeah, I also support Deo-S for S rank. This thing is so diverse, being able to run hazard lead/Dual Screens/Weather setter all while having a massive 180 Speed that allows it to use these moves quickly and effectively. It's revenge killing set is also amazing when used correctly, as a lot of set-up sweepers/fast Pokemon can be taken out quickly by it's large movepool and Life Orb boosted attacks. All in all, I definitely support S-rank for Deo-S.

 

[Boltaway]

* Meloetta is extremely underrated. The ability to go from 128 Special Stats to 128 Attack and 128 Speed is really interesting. It effectively has 3 STABs, a relatively hard hitting move with a 20% sleep chance, and the ability to completely change its stats after one turn of set up. It's really hard to use, but when used right it will be effective.

I can understand not removing Meloetta in retrospect because a form change via Relic Song is a cool niche. However, I find the sets reliant on using Meloetta-R to be subpar solely because of that set up. Aegislash can't really touch it, which is nice as well. I think if Meloetta has a niche it's due to bulky attacker sets.

* Shaymin is not outclassed by anything. It has an important niche as a fast hard hitting grass type, which is integral in a metagame filled with Rotom-W. Its STAB Seed Flare sets it apart from Venusaur, Roserade, and Celebi, its speed sets it apart from the prior two, and its special ground move sets it apart from Venusaur. It also has the capacity to run an item, which puts it above Venusaur, offensively speaking. If anything, I agree with Tornadus-T :D that it should go up.

Shaymin, I still feel, with the exception of Seed Flare, doesn't have anything that distinguishes it from the other grass-types. Even in Gen 4, Shaymin was constantly branded as an inferior Celebi. Let's go through the list though.

• base 100 speed -- ties with Celebi, outsped by Venusaur in the Sun and Ludicolo in rain
• Natural Cure -- matched by Roserade, Venusaur can't be toxic'd and doesn't care about burn
• Subseed -- maybe here? still outsped by a variety of things, and Subseed is subpar anyway imo
• defensive -- arguably outclassed by Ferrothorn, Chesnaught, and M-Venu who all have superior typings
• handling Rotom-W -- I don't think that qualifies as a niche, M-Venu walls it and is immune to trick
• offensive LO -- Venusaur can do this better if he has to, Roserade has spikes for an offensive presence
• Earth Power? -- weak without STAB, Vensaur gets Earthquake for Heatran anyway
• Seed Flare -- a cool thing, although not as cool as Sacred Fire. Celebi can Nasty Plot, Venusaur can Growth. A signature move does not create a significant niche.

It's completely eclipsed. Those are qualities of C-rank. At the same time, why really use it? I don't really see its worth on the list.

* Why Volcarona? Its bulky QD set is super hard to take down, given no stealth rocks. It's that caveat that makes it B instead of A, not B- instead of B.

Defog is a great boon, but Volcarona's x4 weakness to Rocks and susceptibility to priority that make me question its worth. I'm totally swayable on this, however, but Volcarona was A-rank last gen and I don't feel that its improved substantially to warrant it remaining there.

Honchkrow has Sucker Punch + Moxie. That may be worth a ranking, but I'm not sure.

Actually, yeah, that might be it. Not sure how significant that is when it's still outsped by most priority users and wielding a scarf means you're locked into Sucker Punch, which is abysmal. D-rank is very much what it is though.

 

[Mood4food77]

Volcarona's usefulness has dropped because of Talonflame and that's just about it. It's still a freaking amazing Pokemon when it gets a chance to set up, Talonflame just ruins its life. It resists 3 forms of priority (bullet punch, mach punch, and ice shard) and Azumarill and Dragonite both risk getting burned when they use their priority. Talonflame being part fire makes it immune to being bird and since Brave Bird is like the greatest attack ever, just ruins Volcarona (it also doesn't help that Talonflame resists everything Volcarona has except for the rare occurrences of HP Rock and Hurricane). Volcarona should be nothing lower than B rank as it still can still ruin teams on its own but obviously needs some support (just something to remove rocks and Heatran/Talonflame).

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Tornadus-T is a great pokemon, but I don't know if it needs to go any higher than B. It can pivot forever and has a great movepool, but with the loss of a strong reliable STAB (Air Slash isn't doing much to anything not weak to it), there are a lot of things it just can't break. It can still use Hurricane with Drizzle / manual rain, but keep in mind that with the new rain mechanics, you would probably be better off going for an all-out sweeper like Kingdra, Ludicolo or Kabutops with your 8 turns of rain rather than a pivot / wallbreaker like Hurricane Tornadus-T. Keep in mind that these three rain abusers are at C+ / C / C-. If Torny wants to make it to B+ or A-, it'll have to be on its strengths outside of rain as a pivot.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Tornadus-T is a great pokemon, but I don't know if it needs to go any higher than B. It can pivot forever and has a great movepool, but with the loss of a strong reliable STAB (Air Slash isn't doing much to anything not weak to it), there are a lot of things it just can't break. It can still use Hurricane with Drizzle / manual rain, but keep in mind that with the new rain mechanics, you would probably be better off going for an all-out sweeper like Kingdra, Ludicolo or Kabutops with your 8 turns of rain rather than a pivot / wallbreaker like Hurricane Tornadus-T. Keep in mind that these three rain abusers are at C+ / C / C-. If Torny wants to make it to B+ or A-, it'll have to be on its strengths outside of rain as a pivot.

Speaking of the rain abusers, I'd like to see all of them move up. Kingdra and Kaputops seem B to me, as they're all extremely deadly with a Swift Swim boost due to their great dual STABs and powerful Rain-boosted attacks. While Kaputops has Swords Dance and hits harder, Kingdra functions much better outside of Rain, meaning they both deserve B in my eyes. Ludicolo should go C due to it's competition for a teamslot and near-worthlessness outside of Rain. All in all, though, Rain abusers are much more potent then people make them out to be, and they should definitely rise.

On another note, can we please see Quagsire rise to B-/B? It's an amazing Pokemon for full stall, as it's ability Unaware allows it to beat a ton of common set-up sweepers and Toxic stall them. It also has a great defensive typing and a reliable recovery move in Recover, meaning it doesn't get worn down. It's main flaw is it's overall average bulk and competition for an Unaware user with Clefable, but all in all, Quagsire is definitely a defensive Pokemon who is definitely viable on stall.

 

[TCTphantom]

Nominating Zapdos For A-/A
Zapdos, is in my opinion, one of the greatest defoggers one can use, and can be an effective defensive backbone for more offensive teams. Zapdos works so well at defog due to being a massive threat to the chief blockers of defog, Milotic, and much more importantly, Bisharp. Heat Wave turns Bisharp into scrap metal, as with 64 SpA, it is an easy OHKO. Zapdos also can fill a niche that Rotom W normally fills; that of a flying resist. With how effective Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and to a lesser extent Staraptor, Zapdos serves as a great check that could easily take a Brave Bird/Aerialate Frustration(Return) and threaten back with a powerful thunderbolt. What makes it fit into this role better than Rotom Wash is the toys it gains. I have already discussed Defog, but Roost is another vital toy. Rotom W suffers from lacking reliable recovery, forcing it to rely on a shaky Pain Split or ChestoResto. Zapdos, however, with Roost in toe, allows it to stick around far longer than our Washer, while still filling its job. Zapdos also still checks Scizor/Mega Scizor, one of the most powerful sweepers in the meta, and gains a valuable fighting resist to boot. Overall, due to its skills as a defogger and a Physical tank, I feel Zapdos should be ranked higher.
Here is the set one should use
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability:Pressure
Bold Nature
248 HP, 196 Def, 64 SpA
~Heat Wave
~Thunderbolt
~Defog
~Roost

Also support Deo D for S Rank, it does every job that Deo S does better. Having the speed to taunt defoggers is great, but that bulk is why its so great. Having an item slot freed is what makes Deo D so dangerous. Deo D could run Mental Herb to stop Taunters, Red Card to force a switch, or even Cutsap Berry (once released) to gain that last layer. As a dual screener holding Light Clay, Deoxys D is able to do its job more frequently than Deoxys S, which makes it that much more dangerous. While it is not the jack of all trades that Deoxys S is in a hazard layer, screen setter, and revenge killer in one package, it is the best hazard lead and dual screener in the metagame, and makes hyper offense that much more dangerous.
Deoxys D @ Red Card/Mental Herb/Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
Timid Nature
252 HP, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
~Taunt
~Mirror Coat/Recover
~Stealth Rocks/Reflect/Spikes/Light Screen
~Stealth Rocks/Reflect/Spikes/Light Screen

 

[Baharoth]

Also support Deo D for S Rank, it does every job that Deo S does better.

Is that so? I have yet to see Deo D revengekilling stuff. Honestly its A+ rank is ridiculus enough, there is exactly one role it can fill and that one roll is basicly linked to just one kind of team and that kind of team isnt even that good/common and it becomes less viable the higher we go in terms of skill level. Yes its the best hazard setter for HO teams but thats it, it cant do anything else, is useless outside of HO teams and even there its predictable as hell. I cant even tell how much I disagree with putting that thing into S rank. S rank is for metagame defining threats not for some niche pokemon no matter how good they are on their niche.

 

[Hclegend]

Is that so? I have yet to see Deo D revengekilling stuff. Honestly its A+ rank is ridiculus enough, there is exactly one role it can fill and that one roll is basicly linked to just one kind of team and that kind of team isnt even that good/common and it becomes less viable the higher we go in terms of skill level. Yes its the best hazard setter for HO teams but thats it, it cant do anything else, is useless outside of HO teams and even there its predictable as hell. I cant even tell how much I disagree with putting that thing into S rank. S rank is for metagame defining threats not for some niche pokemon no matter how good they are on their niche.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Taken from the OP. It's one of the best hazard setters supporters in OU, you're guaranteed a SR and maybe a layer or 2 of Spikes with it. And the parts I highlighted help too :)

 

[Baharoth]

Just that it cant wall significant potions of the metagame and cant perform multiple roles. It supports by laying hazards with little to no opportunity cost, granted, but imo its far too one dimensional for S rank.

 

[Hclegend]

Just that it cant wall significant potions of the metagame and cant perform multiple roles. It supports by laying hazards with little to no opportunity cost, granted, but imo its far too one dimensional for S rank.

Yes because 180 in both defence stats DOESN'T make it a wall. Sure, it can only fill one role, but it fills that role extremely well. I don't see you chastising Chansey or Blissey for being walls (They fill the role of "Stall everything to death" instead of hazard setter). And it's viable on more than one kind of team. Sure HO benefits from it the most, but it can fit well on any team thanks to the little support it needs. THAT'S why it's A+ already, it can fit on nearly any team with no adjustment.

 

[Baharoth]

Yes because 180 in both defence stats DOESN'T make it a wall. Sure, it can only fill one role, but it fills that role extremely well. I don't see you chastising Chansey or Blissey for being walls (They fill the role of "Stall everything to death" instead of hazard setter). And it's viable on more than one kind of team. Sure HO benefits from it the most, but it can fit well on any team thanks to the little support it needs. THAT'S why it's A+ already, it can fit on nearly any team with no adjustment.

Its 160 on both defenses, further more it has an awful defensive typing and measly 50 HP so no its not a wall. If someone suggests Chansey or Blissey for S rank you can be sure that i will disagree as well. Interestingly though Chansey is just B+ despite beeing the best special wall and one of the best mixed walls in the game capable of stalling unprepared teams to hell and back all on its own and it can support its team as a exellent Cleric and Wishpasser all in one set. And no Deo-D doesnt fit into any team because the hazard support it provides has little to no benefit to other kinds of teams, BO cant create enough pressure to ensure that the hazards stay on the field and stall... well its obvious isnt it?

 

[Salt]

Its 160 on both defenses, further more it has an awful defensive typing and measly 50 HP so no its not a wall. If someone suggests Chansey or Blissey for S rank you can be sure that i will disagree as well. Interestingly though Chansey is just B+ despite beeing the best special wall and one of the best mixed walls in the game capable of stalling unprepared teams to hell and back all on its own and it can support its team as a exellent Cleric and Wishpasser all in one set. And no Deo-D doesnt fit into any team because the hazard support it provides has little to no benefit to other kinds of teams, BO cant create enough pressure to ensure that the hazards stay on the field and stall... well its obvious isnt it?

While you make good points, I'm inclined to disagree with you. Deoxys-D fits in S because it is the hazard stacker for HO; absolutely nothing does its job better, not even Deoxys-S. When played correctly (and it isn't hard to play correctly, mind you) it essentially guarantees Stealth Rock at the bare minimum, and can quite easily get an extra layer or two of Spikes. There aren't reliable ways to stop it from getting at least one layer because the only conceivable ways to stop it are easy to get around:

Faster Taunt, particularly Prankster (stopped by Magic Coat)
Magic Bounce (Espeon and Xatu are generally poor team choices, Absol has to Mega Evolve to get Magic Bounce)
Flat out OHKOing it (Most Pokemon capable of doing so are slower, like LO Aegislash or Mega Heracross)

It doesn't matter if it's one-dimensional because it's unmatched at its job. It's not even that one-dimensional because it has options like Taunt, Magic Coat, and Thunder Wave, as well as being able to use different items like Red Card or Rocky Helmet. Mega Pinsir is in the same boat in the case of being extremely predictable but still extremely hard to stop, and nobody has made any dispute to Mega Pinsir's ranking. Deoxys-D should be S rank imo.

 

[UltiMario]

Latios honestly should be A+ rank. It's a major staple in the meta with its amazing combination of massive power and utility with Defog. It has a fair amount of unpredictability, and you really can't be comfortable checking it with any Pokemon except for Aegislash and Clefable in this meta, it can muscle through all its other checks one way or another, even Bisharp assuming you can predict the Suckers. Depending on the set it can do incredibly well vs almost all of S and A ranks, and the fact is just because Aegis beats it hard doesn't excuse it for being just A rank. There are definitely Pokemon in the A+ rank like Azumarill and Cube, while they deserve their A+ I wouldn't say those are Pokemon better than Latios, and I really wouldn't want to stick Latios down in the same ranking tier as something like Greninja or Mandibuzz... the point here is that he really stands out compared to the other A rank Pokemon as being way better than them, and better than even some stuff in A+. He really should be moved up.

 

[Baharoth]

Deoxys-D fits in S because it is the hazard stacker for HO

Going by that logic we should put Mr Mime into S rank as well because its the best at its niche on BP teams. Yes thats an exaggeration but still, we cant put anything into S rank because its the best at its job, especially not if said job is only relevant for one kind of team. Pinsir is predictable as well thats true, but that doesnt stop it from sweeping your whole team if your unprepared or make a mistake. The most you will get out of Deo-D are some hazards which is good, but in a meta with defog everywhere its not valuable enough for most teams to make Deo-D S rank imo.